Back Row with Amy Odell

Jill Demling started as Anna Wintour's assistant in 1998, around the same time as Lauren Weisberger, who went on to write The Devil Wears Prada. Anna promoted Jill to entertainment editor, and she spent the next 18 and a half years deciding who got the cover of Vogue. She reveals which cover Anna wouldn't let her forget, how Beyoncé got her first Vogue cover, and why Angelina Jolie raided Gwyneth Paltrow's rack. Jill now hosts the Going Rogue podcast. Check it out on Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/going-rogue/id1814440700 YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@UCifqLV2sQB7b9WufQimRyqw And Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/7CIDU8Gib1FRvscacNw4SR CHAPTERS 00:00 Introduction 02:30 Anna's "next September" test 08:00 Egg sandwiches, voicemails & Burger Heaven milkshakes 12:45 Lauren Weisberger & the real Emily 18:30 What The Devil Wears Prada gets wrong 22:30 Why celebrities replaced models on covers 33:30 How Beyoncé landed her first Vogue cover 41:00 Photo approval & Beyoncé's no-interview cover
📷 Follow Back Row on Instagram: @backrow 📷 Follow Amy on Instagram: @instamyodell Follow Jill Demling 📷 Follow Jill on Instagram: @jilldemling

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Amy recently joined The Sam Sanders Show to talk about the rise of AI slop in fashion. Thank you to Sam and his team for allowing Back Row to republish the interview here!

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Even the fashion industry can’t escape AI slop.

Fast fashion brands are using AI to pump out new looks and trends, and speed up production at unsustainable rates. It’s a business model that relies much more on algorithmic data than human design. Chances are you’ve even seen plenty of these products in your social media feeds.

Sam chats with fashion journalist Amy Odell, host of the ‘Back Row’ podcast, about AI’s influence in the industry and how we can all be better consumers. Plus, is high fashion on life support? Amy also breaks down the perils of luxury shopping today.

The Sam Sanders Show is a production of KCRW and Sam Sanders Productions.

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Jonathan Van Meter spent five years inside Kim Kardashian's world for his new biography, Citizen Kim: The Woman Who Created the Future. He talks about what her rarefied world of fame and wealth is really like, her childhood front-row seat to the O.J. Simpson trial, and how Kanye West got her into the Met Gala. Plus: what Jonathan could and couldn't learn about how the sex tape was released, and whether Kim is laying the groundwork to run for political office.

CHAPTERS

00:00 Introduction

02:00 How Jonathan Got Five Years of Access

05:30 Inside Kim Kardashian's House (and Her 24 Staffers)

12:00 Kim Air: Kim's Private Jet

30:30 Kim and the O.J. Simpson Trial

40:30 The Kim Kardashian Sex Tape

45:30 The Paris Robbery

48:00 Kanye, Anna Wintour & the Met Gala

55:00 Will Kim Run for Office?

Subscribe to the Back Row newsletter: https://www.backrow.net/subscribe

Buy Citizen Kim: The Woman Who Created the Future: https://link.amazon/B0cKsNzKY

Follow Back Row: @backrow · Follow Amy: @instamyodell · Follow Jonathan: @jonathanvanmeter

Edited by Chrissi Harris.

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*SUBSCRIBE to the Back Row newsletter for more coverage like this: https://www.backrow.net/subscribe. Go Premium and save three months on an annual subscription.* Referenced in this episode:

Facelift confessions, part 1: https://www.backrow.net/p/facelift-confessions-part-1-the-brutal-realities-of-getting-work-done

Facelift confessions, part 2: https://www.backrow.net/p/facelift-confessions-part-2-expect-an-emotional-toll In 2004, Fox turned plastic surgery into primetime entertainment. The Swan reality show gave contestants about $200,000 worth of surgery each, put them on crash diets, banned mirrors for three months, and then put them in a beauty pageant. Nine million people watched. Erin Lee Carr, director of 'Mommy Dead and Dearest' and 'Britney vs Spears,' goes back to the women 20 years later in her hit Hulu documentary, The Swan: Behind the Mirror — and tells Amy what the documentary couldn't. CHAPTERS

00:00 Introduction

04:45 Getting the Swans to talk again

10:00 "I almost died for reality television"

19:30 How much choice did they have? "1%"

22:45 Starvation diets and spoonfuls of peanut butter

26:00 The nude photos Dr. Haworth kept

28:50 The $5 million contract

36:50 "Would you do it again?"

40:00 A classic Anna Wintour story

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SUBSCRIBE to the Back Row newsletter for the FULL Fashion Month Awards podcast and get more coverage like this: https://www.backrow.net/subscribe. Save three months on an annual subscription. For pod ONLY, sign up in Apple Podcasts (https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/back-row-with-amy-odell/id1843400835) or Spotify (https://open.spotify.com/show/0wpDOgcuWKjpH9WxklNqI4). The spring 2027 shows just wrapped in Paris, a year after the "Great Reset" brought new creative directors to Chanel, Dior, and many more. Amy is joined by Dana Thomas, New York Times bestselling author of Deluxe, Gods and Kings and Fashionopolis, to hand out Fashion Month Awards. They get into John Galliano's PR rehab after the canceled Met show, who's having the biggest sophomore slump, and more.

The full episode for Premium subscribers includes awards for Best Runway Stunt and Best Overall, plus analysis of John Galliano's weak Zara launch and Virginie Viard's explosive book. CHAPTERS 00:00 Introduction 04:30 Biggest sophomore slump 10:45 Best show nobody talked about

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Mrs. Dow Jones (Haley Sacks) on how to stop impulse buying and why fashion month keeps you broke. Part One of two. For part two — about Birkins and fashion's play to woo the wealthiest shoppers — get a Premium subscription to Back Row: https://www.backrow.net/subscribe. Save three months on an annual subscription. Or sign up in Apple Podcasts (https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/back-row-with-amy-odell/id1843400835) or Spotify (https://open.spotify.com/show/0wpDOgcuWKjpH9WxklNqI4) Haley Sacks, aka @MrsDowJones, joins Amy to break down how fashion month keeps us stuck in a cycle of broke. Every season the same trend gets planted on the runway, in your feed, and on influencers, and within two weeks a cheaper version shows up at Zara. Haley talks about how to stop impulse buying, why luxury goods are so expensive, and what it was like to grow up in one of the world's wealthiest neighborhoods. CHAPTERS

00:00 Introduction

01:30 How fashion month keeps us in a cycle of broke

04:00 From the runway to Zara in two weeks

08:00 Buy fewer, better things

10:00 How to stop impulse buying

16:00 The luxury pyramid and the $690 keychain

20:00 Is any luxury actually worth it?

22:00 Hunting a sold-out clutch with an AI agent

25:30 Haley's years as an Upper East Side nanny 📺 SUBSCRIBE to the Back Row Newsletter: https://www.backrow.net/subscribe 📷 Follow Back Row on Instagram: @backrow

📷 Follow Amy on Instagram: @instamyodell Follow Haley Sacks

📷 Follow Haley on Instagram: @mrsdowjones

📖 Buy Haley's book, Future Rich Person: https://link.amazon/B07xqeKEx🎙️

🎙️Follow Haley's Financial Tea podcast on Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/financial-tea-with-mrs-dow-jones/id1860939850

🎙️ Follow Haley's Financial Tea podcast on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/58anKIbkGzd5MkI3v0BjY2

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Harry and Meghan are back in the UK, six years after leaving the royal family. In the first part of Back Row's deep dive into Meghan Markle, Amy and former Us Weekly and Hello! editor Justin Ravitz — who has interviewed Prince Harry and worked with the couple's team — trace Meghan's story from her Los Angeles childhood to the night she met Harry.

Part two is available to Back Row Premium subscribers.

CHAPTERS

00:00 Introduction

09:00 Meghan's Los Angeles childhood

12:30 Age 11: taking on Procter & Gamble

16:15 Briefcase No. 24 on Deal or No Deal

22:45 Landing Suits

30:00 The Tig blog and Meghan's Goop dream

35:30 Social climbing and Soho House

43:30 Humanitarian ambitions and meeting Harry

Subscribe to the Back Row newsletter: https://www.backrow.net/subscribe

Buy The Palace Papers by Tina Brown: https://link.amazon/B02EAsx6X

Follow Back Row: @backrow · Follow Amy: @instamyodell · Follow Justin: @jaydubargh

Edited by Chrissi Harris.

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PJ Smith, director of fashion policy for Humane World for Animals (formerly the Humane Society), has spent almost 20 years getting companies from Gucci to Net-a-Porter to go fur-free.

Now that most top fashion brands have sworn off fur, is wool the next big target for animal welfare activists? PJ talks about why, thanks to LVMH, the fur fight isn't quite over, how he got brands to change their mind about fur, and what's next.

CHAPTERS

00:00 Introduction

02:30 Why fur-free NYFW is historic

08:00 How Humane World actually changes brands' minds

18:30 Fur farming down 85% — the numbers

22:30 PETA vs. H&M: the wool protests

25:30 Is wool humane? Mulesing explained

46:30 Exotic skins: the next target

52:00 PJ's biggest lesson after 20 years

Subscribe to the Back Row newsletter: https://www.backrow.net/subscribe

Follow Back Row: @backrow · Follow Amy: @instamyodell

Edited by Chrissi Harris.

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Superfakes have never been better and counterfeiters have never been smarter — so how can consumers buy secondhand luxury with confidence?

Sarah Davis started Fashionphile on eBay in 1999, while she was in law school. Resale has exploded since: Her company now employs more than 350 people and authenticates roughly 1,500 luxury bags a day. Sarah reveals how she turned luxury authentication into an almost CIA-like operation, what gives away a fake Birkin bag, and how a $35,000 machine can tell if a Cartier Love bracelet is real or not.

CHAPTERS

00:00 Introduction

02:00 Law school, eBay, and the Fashionphile origin story

15:00 A real Chanel, a fake one — can you tell?

21:00 Fake bags bought at real stores

23:30 "Your dupe isn't cute"

26:30 The $75 fee that killed the counterfeits

29:30 The $35,000 machine that catches fake Birkins

44:30 Where resale goes next

Subscribe to the Back Row newsletter: https://www.backrow.net/subscribe

Follow Back Row: @backrow · Follow Amy: @instamyodell · Follow Sarah: @justsarahdavis · Shop Fashionphile: @fashionphile

Edited by Chrissi Harris.

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*SUBSCRIBE to the Back Row newsletter for more coverage like this: https://www.backrow.net/subscribe. Go Premium and save three months on an annual subscription.* Trend forecaster Sean Monahan coined the "vibe shift" five years ago to describe the unease millennials felt coming out of the pandemic. Of all the terms Monahan has coined — from "normcore" to the "boom boom aesthetic" — the vibe shift may have been the stickiest. He and Amy revisited his predictions from five years ago and discuss what he got right and wrong. Monahan offers predictions on whether smart glasses will take; where rage bait is heading; the future of "flexing"; where the Met Gala goes from here; and what luxury fashion has to do to recover. CHAPTERS

00:00 Introduction

03:00 The boom boom aesthetic and the '80s that weren't

06:00 Why crypto killed streetwear

08:30 Normcore, and the anxiety behind it

19:00 Did tackiness give way to taste?

24:00 Smart glasses, glassholes and surveillance

38:00 Rage bait and the clipping economy

47:30 'The Devil Wears Prada 2' and Jeff Bezos

1:04:30 How does luxury fashion recover? 📩SUBSCRIBE to the Back Row Newsletter: https://www.backrow.net/subscribe

Back Row on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@amy_odell 📷 Follow Back Row on Instagram: @backrow 📷 Follow Amy on Instagram: @instamyodell Follow Sean Monahan 📷 Follow Sean on Instagram: @8ghtb4ll 📩 Read 8Ball: https://www.8ball.report/

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Amy Chozick has spent her career writing about polarizing women — she covered Hillary Clinton for The New York Times, profiled Elizabeth Holmes right before prison, followed Stormy Daniels for Vogue, and wrote the widely dissected profile of Lauren Sánchez Bezos.

Her new novel, With Friends Like You (https://amzn.to/4yjRlvI), follows Emily, a broke new mom in Manhattan, who goes looking for the college friend who vanished — and finds her working as a high-end escort to billionaires.

To write the book, she researched the world of the ultra-rich obsessively. She also reveals what surprised her about Lauren Sánchez Bezos, discusses the detail everyone rehashed from that profile, and more. CHAPTERS

00:00 Introduction

02:00 A new mother, a missing friend, and a billionaire's escort

4:00 Billionaires' Row and the empty towers

13:00 Covering Hillary Clinton, and what power does to people

17:00 Profiling Lauren Sánchez Bezos

23:00 "They stopped apologizing" — the new rich

30:00 Hillary's suits, Lauren's taped-up Vogue pages

41:00 Is fashion getting tackier?

Subscribe to the Back Row newsletter: https://www.backrow.net/subscribe

Buy With Friends Like You: A Novel: https://amzn.to/4yjRlvI

Follow Back Row: @backrow

Follow Amy: @instamyodell

Follow Amy Chozick: @amychozick

Edited by Chrissi Harris.

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This is a teaser of a paywalled episode. To listen in full, become a paid subscriber of Back Row at: https://www.backrow.net/subscribe. Or sign up in Apple Podcasts or Spotify.

In a stunning move, the Metropolitan Museum of Art has cancelled "John Galliano: Horizons," the Costume Institute retrospective planned for May 2027.

Galliano's biographer and fashion journalist Dana Thomas joined Amy hours after the Met made the announcement. They discuss what this means for fashion, for John Galliano, and for the Met Gala's planner and previously all-powerful architect, Anna Wintour.

CHAPTERS

00:00 Introduction

00:30 Why Dana wasn't surprised

01:30 When you lose the politicians and the donors

03:00 "Not an aberration" — Dana's New York Times op-ed

05:00 The incidents that never got reported

06:00 The 2019 spa incident

07:30 What the comment sections revealed

11:30 Philippe Virgitti, still waiting for an apology

Subscribe to the Back Row newsletter: https://www.backrow.net/subscribe

Buy Gods and Kings: The Rise and Fall of Alexander McQueen and John Galliano: https://amzn.to/4cSeZHw

Edited by Chrissi Harris.

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*SUBSCRIBE to the Back Row newsletter for more coverage like this: https://www.backrow.net/subscribe. Go Premium and save three months on an annual subscription and get access to 'The September Issue' Rewatch Bonus episode!*

The September Issue is R.J. Cutler's 2009 documentary about the biggest issue of Vogue ever made up to that point — 843 pages, 13 million copies sold.

Amy is joined by Kate Casey, host of Reality Life with Kate Casey and a documentary and reality TV expert, to rewatch it seventeen years later. They get into what Anna Wintour really thought of the film, why she and her Vogue team hated Sienna Miller's hair so much, how it all aged, and much more.

CHAPTERS

00:00 Introduction

02:00 13 million copies sold — and what's left now

06:00 How Anna and Grace actually met

17:30 The retailers' breakfast, when Vogue set the trends

25:00 "Your girls always look the same" - Anna at her harshest

41:00 Anna at home, and the kids who didn't follow her

48:00 The Sienna Miller cover disaster

1:07:00 843 pages, and the era that ended

📺 SUBSCRIBE to the Back Row Newsletter: https://www.backrow.net/subscribe

📷 Follow Back Row on Instagram: @backrow

📷 Follow Amy on Instagram: @instamyodell

Follow Kate Casey

🎙️ Reality Life with Kate Casey:

Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/reality-life-with-kate-casey/id1154758766

Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/7iZzKUbEWAsWVkFRebb9Gu 📷 Follow Kate on Instagram: @katecaseyca

This episode was edited by Chrissi Harris.

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Back Row is on vacation this week, so we're revisiting one of the most popular episodes of the year: a two-parter on Mary-Kate and Ashley Olsen, in honor of The Row's 20th anniversary.

Mary-Kate and Ashley Olsen were on television before they could talk and millionaires before they could read. Former Us Weekly editor-in-chief Dan Wakeford, author of the new ⁠Celebrity Intelligence newsletter⁠, joins Back Row to break down the Full House casting story, the Dual Star empire, the billion-dollar licensing machine, and the NYU years that changed everything.

Part Two — revealing the secrets behind The Row — is available to Premium subscribers. Sign up at ⁠Back Row⁠ (https://www.backrow.net/subscribe) to get newsletter access included with your subscription, or in Apple Podcasts or Spotify.

⁠Find Part Two in Apple Podcasts here⁠

⁠Find Part Two in Spotify here⁠

Chapters

00:00 Introduction

01:40 Dan Wakeford and Celebrity Intelligence

02:47 Why the Olsens are a unique case study

07:50 The Full House casting story

10:07 The reality of child stardom

16:22 How their personalities diverged early

19:49 From pennies to $80,000 an episode

26:27 The home video empire begins

33:28 The billion dollar licensing machine

48:00 Turning 18 and taking control

53:41 NYU and the paparazzi years

57:47 How everything changed

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Is everything on social media — even lifestyle content — just rage bait now? New York Magazine features writer Rebecca Jennings joins Amy to unpack her hit Vulture piece on the "influencer recession," when aspirational content no longer works and creators have to come up with "brand-safe rage bait." What does this mean both for the content landscape but also, for rage itself?

CHAPTERS

00:00 Introduction

02:00 What is the "influencer recession"?

02:45 The clipping economy & fake virality

05:15 Audrey Peters & the $25 DoorDash coffee

10:30 Why the Alo yacht flopped

14:35 Why Birkins are embarrassing now

19:30 The OpenAI influencer farm trip

24:00 Brands manufacturing their own rage bait

30:00 How Substack changed the game

34:30 Is rage bait losing its power?

Read Rebecca's story: The Influencer Recession — https://www.vulture.com/article/influencer-recession-audrey-peters-interview.html

Edited by Chrissi Harris.

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*SUBSCRIBE to the Back Row newsletter for more coverage like this: https://www.backrow.net/subscribe. Go Premium and save three months on an annual subscription.* Is fashion in the throes of a total creative collapse? Critic Eugene Rabkin — founder of StyleZeitgeist and author of the new book Torn: Fashion and Postmodernism — joins Amy to make the case. He argues luxury has "devolved into a consumerist spectacle," its lack of ideas papered over by relentless marketing. They get into the greedflation behind a $140,000 Dior dress, why "craftsmanship" is the industry's greatest con, the Italian sweatshop scandals that never seem to stick, how Bernard Arnault turned the fashion world into the fashion industry — and the death of criticism, and why nobody seems to care. CHAPTERS 00:00 Introduction

02:30 Fashion's creative collapse: the thesis

08:30 Greedflation & the $140,000 Dior dress

13:00 The craftsmanship con

15:00 Sweatshop scandals: Dior & Loro Piana's vicuña

23:30 The death of fashion criticism

32:00 Bernard Arnault & how he industrialized fashion 📺 SUBSCRIBE to the Back Row Newsletter: https://www.backrow.net/subscribe 📷 Follow Back Row on Instagram: @backrow 📷 Follow Amy on Instagram: @instamyodell Follow Eugene Rabkin 📷 Follow Eugene on Instagram: @eugenerabkin 📚 Buy the book: Torn: Fashion and Postmodernism This episode was edited by Chrissi Harris.

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John Galliano is the subject of the Costume Institute's 2027 exhibition and will be celebrated with his very own Met Gala. Galliano's biographer Dana Thomas — author of Gods and Kings, a dual biography about Galliano and Alexander McQueen — joins the show to talk about what this means. Amy and Dana recap Galliano's fall from grace and image rehabilitation — thanks to Anna Wintour.

This is a free preview. Hear the full conversation — a detailed recap of the controversy, the apology Galliano never made, and Amy's take on whether the Met should honor him — in the full episode in Back Row Premium.

Sign up for the newsletter at backrow.net/subscribe to access the newsletter plus all Premium podcasts, or subscribe for audio only in Apple Podcasts or Spotify.

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"Parisian Heist" author Jo Piazza joins Amy to break down the October 2025 Louvre robbery — the suspects, the mysterious "sponsor," and why authorities aren't sure the suspects are telling the truth.

Plus: why museum security is so basic, how art gets used to launder money and fund violent crime, the billionaire families who quietly run the art market, and what a $181 million Jackson Pollock says about the state of art and wealth. (00:00) Introduction (02:30) Recap: the Louvre heist, October 19, 2025 (04:30) The Isabella Stewart Gardner heist: $500M, still unsolved (07:30) The arrests and the mysterious "sponsor" named Joe (08:30) How basic museum security really is (13:00) What was stolen: the Napoleonic crown jewels (16:30) The Wildensteins & how art launders money (30:00) The $60 billion shadow art market (31:00) Restoring Empress Eugénie's crown & the French jewelry houses (38:30) The $181M Pollock & Jerry Saltz's takedown of the art market Subscribe to the Back Row newsletter: https://www.backrow.net/subscribe Buy The Parisian Heist: https://amzn.to/4yLV6ex Follow Back Row: @backrow · Follow Amy: @instamyodell · Follow Jo: @jopiazzaauthor Edited by Chrissi Harris.

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In this special episode in collaboration with the Power User podcast Amy Odell joins tech journalist Taylor Lorenz to trace the arc of wearable tech — from the abomination that was Google Glass to Snapchat's vending-machine Spectacles and the company's recent $2,000 flop. Also, why Meta's rollout of it's new $299 fashion-first AI glasses, odious as many find them, may end up being a smash hit.

Follow Taylor's show Power User on Spotify, Apple, and YouTube, and subscribe to her newsletter, UserMag.

Chapters:

00:00 Intro — why everyone's arguing about Meta's glasses

01:36 Turning a camera into a fashion accessory

01:55 Welcome + the "hot surveillance summer" question

02:45 Google Glass and the original abomination

04:16 Snapchat Spectacles, vending machines, and a $130 flop

06:48 GoPro and how sports normalized filming everything

08:55 Ray-Ban Stories (2021) and the "creep" problem

10:57 2025: Oakley Meta and the first AI glasses

11:55 2026: low-profile frames, rhinestones, and AI as the real sell

13:25 The influencer rollout and the decline of fashion media

18:39 Why Kylie Jenner

21:40 How phones already normalized recording everything

24:56 Fashion, plausible deniability, and getting women on board

26:20 Will they actually sell? Meta's copy machine

29:19 The anti-screen crowd may be Meta's best customer

32:14 Beyond glasses: pins, pendants, and camera AirPods

35:29 Who owns the data? Facial recognition and the scary part

37:11 Zuckerberg, Bezos, the Met Gala, and OpenAI's fashion play

39:59 Snap's $2,000 flop and why ugly tech dies

43:03 Wrap-up

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***SUBSCRIBE to the Back Row newsletter for more coverage like this. Go Premium and save three months on an annual subscription.*** Town & Country editor Caroline Hallemann's new book is The Kennedys and the Windsors: The Story of Two Dynasties, One Born, One Made. She joins Amy to discuss the eerie parallels between these two dynasties. Among the surprising stories in Hallemann's book: how Jackie Kennedy fought to keep wearing French designers as First Lady, why JFK Jr. wanted Princess Diana on the cover of George, the real story behind Diana's death and the ongoing conspiracy theories, and how Meghan Markle copied Carolyn Bessette's style. Plus: what Jack Schlossberg's blistering congressional loss means for the Kennedy dynasty.

Chapters:

00:00 Introduction

03:00 Young Jackie at Miss Porter's and her enduring fashion influence

08:00 What "American Love Story" got wrong about Carolyn Bessette

10:30 JFK Jr. launches George magazine

14:00 Why John wanted Diana on the cover

20:00 Diana's death: what actually happened

32:00 The conspiracy theories that still swirl around Diana's death

39:00 Why Meghan Markle keeps copying Carolyn Bessette's style

53:00 Is Jack Schlossberg the next JFK Jr.?

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Follow Caroline Hallemann: https://www.instagram.com/challemann/

Buy the book: https://amzn.to/4fVX8Bq

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