Chasing Leviathan

Why do we constantly look back to the ancient past to make sense of artificial intelligence, automation, and the future of work?

Penn State University's associate professor of communication and classics, Dr. Michele Kennerly, joins host PJ Wehry to discuss the surprising history of how ancient Athenian democracy shapes our modern visions of AI and cybernetics.

Dr. Kennerly explores the intersection of ancient rhetoric and technology in her book, Automated Athens: Ancient Greek Ideals in the Early Age of Automation. They examine how techno-futurists and cybernetic pioneers haven't just focused on cold mechanics, but have historically drawn on Greek ideals to imagine a post-work world that balances technological progress with deep human connection and philosophy.

In this conversation they explore:

• Why the discourse around mid-century automation and modern AI frequently invokes a "discourse of purity" surrounding ancient Athenian democracy, hoping to recreate its philosophical heights without its historical atrocities.
• The crucial paradox identified by MIT mathematician Norbert Wiener: why humanity cannot realistically build artificial systems that possess both supreme intelligence and supreme obedience.
• How scholar Alice Mary Hilton coined the term "cyberculture" in 1963 as a historical counterweight to agriculture, questioning how humans will derive self-worth and meaning if machines eliminate traditional labor.
• Why America's Founding Fathers strictly embraced Roman republicanism, while mid-century cyberneticists turned instead to Greek democracy as a way to critique the modern military-industrial complex.
• Media theorist Marshall McLuhan's belief that thriving in an automated age requires a revival of liberal arts education to help us reclaim the forgotten arts of deep reading, conversation, and listening.
• The concept of communication as "equipment for living together"—and how understanding rhetoric helps us bridge the tragic and comedic chasm of trying to relate to other people.
• Why solving our modern tech and political crises might require radical systemic change, such as bringing back the ancient Athenian practice of sortition (selecting public officials by lottery) to replace costly, endless election cycles.

This is a conversation for anyone interested in philosophy, media theory, artificial intelligence, and the history of technology who wants to understand how ancient ideals can help us successfully navigate a rapidly changing digital world.

Make sure to check out Dr. Kennerly's book: Automated Athens: Ancient Greek Ideals in the Early Age of Automation: https://www.amazon.com/dp/0226852172

Check out our website at chasingleviathan.com

Who thinks that they can subdue Leviathan? Strength resides in its neck; dismay goes before it. When it rises up, the mighty are terrified. Nothing on earth is its equal. It is without fear. It looks down on all who are haughty; it is king over all who are proud.

These words inspired PJ Wehry to create Chasing Leviathan. Chasing Leviathan was born out of two ideals: that truth is worth pursuing but will never be subjugated, and the discipline of listening is one of the most important habits anyone can develop.

Timestamps
0:00 Introducing Dr. Michele Kennerly
0:54 The Forgotten Connection Between Ancient Rhetoric and AI
3:25 Why Techno-Futurists Look to Ancient Athens for Inspiration
5:24 The AI Paradox: Supreme Intelligence vs. Supreme Obedience
7:28 How Cold War Anxieties Revived Athenian Democracy Ideals
10:00 The Cybercultural Battle: Ancient Athens vs. Ancient Rome
11:41 How the Founding Fathers Embraced Rome Over Greece
14:29 The Triple Revolution of the 1960s
15:35 The Invention of Cyberculture and the End of Human Labor
17:43 Plato's Hidden Influence on the Term Cybernetics
18:30 Marshall McLuhan and Liberal Education in the Cyber Age
21:50 Rediscovering Play and Childlike Wonder in a Post-Work World
23:41 How Automation Could Cure the Hyper-Segmented Modern Life
29:51 Cybernetics and the Secret Origins of Communication Studies
32:45 Classical Rhetoric vs. Modern Dyadic Relationships
36:44 Kenneth Burke and Communication
39:04 Bureaucratizing the Imagination: Making Tech Utopias Practical
42:34 Why America Needs Systemic Democratic Change and Sortition
44:46 The Digital Agora: Can the Internet Create Democracy at Scale?
49:07 Concluding Thoughts

What does an ancient Greek philosopher have to teach us about navigating modern politics, friendship, and the ultimate pursuit of happiness?

Boston College's Behrakis professor in Hellenic Political Studies, Dr. Robert Bartlett, joins host PJ Wehry to discuss the enduring power and clarity of Aristotelian thought.

Dr. Bartlett explores the complex relationship between law, virtue, and human flourishing in his book, Law and the Good Life: On the Political Philosophy of Aristotle. They examine how Aristotle's teachings from Nicomachean Ethics, Politics, and The Art of Rhetoric fit together to form a comprehensive guide to what it means to live a truly good life.

In this conversation they explore:

• Why Aristotle remains fundamentally relevant today for answering life's most direct questions about virtue, human happiness, and excellence.
• The delicate tension between the rigid, universal nature of law and the absolute necessity for "equity" and prudence (phronesis) in complex, particular circumstances.
• How Aristotle viewed rhetoric as a "loaded gun"—a powerful tool for persuasion that requires both technical skill and moral guardrails to prevent abuse.
• The crucial role of friendship as the bridge connecting our individual moral virtues to our broader existence within a political community.
• Why Aristotle fundamentally disagreed with early modern thinkers like Hobbes, arguing instead that human beings are "political animals" by nature, not by artificial construct.
• How studying historical figures like Winston Churchill and Neville Chamberlain can help us hone our own capacity for political judgment and prudence.
• The ultimate distinction between moral virtues (action/praxis) and intellectual virtue (theoria)—and why ancient thinkers prioritized pure understanding over technological application.

This is a conversation for anyone interested in political philosophy, ancient history, and ethical living who wants to understand how Aristotle's foundational ideas can help us navigate the complexities of modern civic and personal life.

Make sure to check out Dr. Bartlett's book: Law and the Good Life: On the Political Philosophy of Aristotle: https://www.amazon.com/dp/0226854655/

Check out our website at chasingleviathan.com

Who thinks that they can subdue Leviathan? Strength resides in its neck; dismay goes before it. When it rises up, the mighty are terrified. Nothing on earth is its equal. It is without fear. It looks down on all who are haughty; it is king over all who are proud.

These words inspired PJ Wehry to create Chasing Leviathan. Chasing Leviathan was born out of two ideals: that truth is worth pursuing but will never be subjugated, and the discipline of listening is one of the most important habits anyone can develop.

Timestamps
0:00 Introducing Dr. Robert Bartlett
0:55 Why Aristotle Matters for Modern Questions on Human Flourishing
2:59 Combining the Ethics Politics and Rhetoric into One Framework
5:53 From Individual Moral Virtue to the Broader Political Community
10:48 The Danger and Power of Rhetoric as a Loaded Gun
13:35 Teaching Aristotelian Virtue Ethics to Modern College Students
17:40 Why Universal Laws Fail and the Need for Equity
22:58 Defining Phronesis and Prudence in Moral Judgment
24:32 Winston Churchill and Prudence in Historical Statesmanship
29:15 How Friendship Bridges Individual Flourishing and Civic Life
33:10 Aristotle versus Thomas Hobbes on Human Nature and Politics
36:36 Why Human Beings Need Both Moral and Intellectual Virtues
40:19 Ancient Philosophy and Modern Skepticism Toward Technology
41:58 Rhetoric as a Technical Art and Practical Knowledge
45:08 The Debates Surrounding Practical Action and Theoretical Contemplation

Why do we often assume that fighting climate change requires a life of scarcity, asceticism, and sacrificing abundance, when nature itself is wildly generative and beautiful?

Northwestern University's Owen L. Coon Professor of Argumentation and Debate, Dr. Robert Hariman, joins host PJ Wehry on Chasing Leviathan to discuss how we can rethink our approach to the existential crisis of the Anthropocene.

Dr. Hariman explores the intersection of aesthetic knowledge and environmental survival in his book, Formal Objects: On Beauty and Sustainability. They examine how the mentality that got us into our current ecological mess isn't sufficient to get us out, and how embracing a new, ecological "formalism" might just be the key to designing a world we actually want to live in.

In this conversation they explore:

• Why global warming is a symptom of a larger systemic crisis of modernity, and why we need a new conceptual vocabulary to survive it.
• The history of "formalism"—why it was cast aside by academia 50 years ago, and why reinvigorating the study of form is vital for building a just and sustainable society.
• How beauty and utility are not opposites, but actually converge to create fitness in both natural organisms and cultural artifacts.
• The importance of "aesthetic knowledge"—an embodied, relational way of knowing that complements modern science and prevents us from treating nature merely as a mute object tailored for exploitation.
• Why a truly sustainable society cannot be built on scarcity models or ugly, ascetic design, but must lean into nature's incredible abundance and joy.
• The dangers of monocultural regimes in design and architecture, and how true formal processes rely heavily on diversity and continuous generation.
• Practical ways to cultivate everyday mindfulness by paying attention to the forms and local ecology around us, including a look at Central Florida's water table crisis and the impracticality of suburban lawns.

This is a conversation for anyone interested in environmentalism, architecture, philosophy, and the humanities who wants to understand how beauty and better design can help us navigate the climate crisis and build a thriving future.

Make sure to check out Dr. Hariman's book: Formal Objects: On Beauty and Sustainability: https://www.amazon.com/dp/0226853780/

Check out our website at chasingleviathan.com

Who thinks that they can subdue Leviathan? Strength resides in its neck; dismay goes before it. When it rises up, the mighty are terrified. Nothing on earth is its equal. It is without fear. It looks down on all who are haughty; it is king over all who are proud.

These words inspired PJ Wehry to create Chasing Leviathan. Chasing Leviathan was born out of two ideals: that truth is worth pursuing but will never be subjugated, and the discipline of listening is one of the most important habits anyone can develop.

Timestamps
0:00 Introducing Dr. Robert Hariman
1:26 Why Modernity is in Crisis and Systems are Breaking Down
5:04 What is Formalism and the Convergence of Beauty and Utility
14:22 Examples of Formal Objects in Nature and Culture
16:54 The Importance of Esthetic Knowledge and Embodied Cognition
28:32 Central Florida Water Crisis and the Problem with Suburban Lawns
31:42 Escaping the Myth of Ecology and Scarcity Models
35:37 Why Use the Term Anthropocene Over Late Stage Capitalism
44:18 Why a Truly Sustainable Society Cannot Be Ugly
46:11 Concluding Thoughts

Why have we reduced the profound, human experience of eating into a sterile game of counting calories, optimizing nutrition, and "maxing" our productivity?

Iowa State University's professor of practice, Dr. Scott Samuelson, joins host PJ Weary to discuss how the simple act of cooking can serve as a profound paradigm for leading a meaningful life.

Dr. Samuelson explores the deep intersections of culinary arts and philosophical inquiry in his book, To Taste: On Cooking and the Good Life. They examine how true nourishment isn't found in abstract nutritional labels or industrial farming models, but rather requires active engagement, tradition, and shared human connection.

In this conversation they explore:

• How conversations about Italian food with a Hegel scholar and moonlighting as a sous chef at a farm-to-table French restaurant revealed that cooking and philosophy are fundamentally the same pursuit.
• The dangers of the "barbarism of reflection"—how abstracting food into mere data points (like calories or gut biomes) strips away the cultural and relational essence of eating.
• Why the philosopher Alfred North Whitehead's stages of education—romance, discipline, and synthesis—perfectly mirror the journey of becoming a skilled cook and developing a personal style.
• The concept of playing the "Dodgeball of Evil" versus planting a "Garden of the Good," and why trying to be perfectly pure in our food ethics is less effective than actively growing honest practices around us.
• The problem with the modern obsession of "maxing" and optimizing our lives like industrial machines, rather than growing like diverse, resilient ecosystems.
• A poignant lesson from end-of-life care: why asking "what does a good day look like?" almost always centers around the simple joy of sharing a leisurely meal with loved ones.

This is a conversation for anyone interested in philosophy, culinary arts, and intentional living who wants to reconnect with the rich, sensory experiences that make life truly worth living.

Make sure to check out Dr. Samuelson's book: To Taste: On Cooking and the Good Life: https://www.amazon.com/dp/0226853667/

Check out our website at chasingleviathan.com

Who thinks that they can subdue Leviathan? Strength resides in its neck; dismay goes before it. When it rises up, the mighty are terrified. Nothing on earth is its equal. It is without fear. It looks down on all who are haughty; it is king over all who are proud.

These words inspired PJ Wehry to create Chasing Leviathan. Chasing Leviathan was born out of two ideals: that truth is worth pursuing but will never be subjugated, and the discipline of listening is one of the most important habits anyone can develop.

Timestamps
0:00 Introducing Dr. Scott Samuelson
1:06 How Moonlighting as a Sous Chef Inspired a Philosophy Book
4:22 Why Cooking is the Perfect Paradigm for a Meaningful Life
7:44 Alfred North Whitehead and the Rhythm of Romance and Discipline
11:27 The Barbarism of Reflection and the Dangers of Abstracting Food
14:30 Why Reducing Meals to Pure Nutrition Harms Human Connection
17:20 How the Culture of Maxing and Optimization Weaponizes Health
19:17 Why Spending Leisurely Time in the Kitchen Defines a Good Day
25:53 Discovering the Romance of Culinary Arts through Lebanese Traditions
32:47 The Deep Intersubjective Meaning Behind Seasoning to Taste
36:27 Sourcing Fresh Ingredients and the True Ethics of Farm-to-Table Cooking
41:15 Why Cultivating the Garden of the Good Beats the Dodgeball of Evil
45:41 The Dangers of Monoculture Farming and the Industrial Human Model
49:49 Closing Thoughts

Why does modern morality often feel like an exhausting, impossible burden rather than an inspiring way to live? Are we all required to be perfect "moral exemplars," or is there a strong philosophical case for simply living a decent life?

Dr. Todd May, the Nielsen Professor of the Humanities at Warren Wilson College (Asheville, NC), joins host PJ Weary to discuss how we can rethink our moral obligations and expectations in a highly demanding world.

Dr. May explores the realistic boundaries of human goodness in his book, A Decent Life: Morality for the Rest of Us. They examine how genuine decency doesn't demand extreme altruism or austere self-sacrifice—like donating a kidney to a stranger just to maximize utility—but rather requires a "moral gracefulness" that allows us to care for others while still enjoying rich, meaningful human lives.

In this conversation they explore:
🔷 Why the extreme utilitarian demands of philosophers like Peter Singer pushed Dr. May to write a practical moral framework designed for "sane people."
🔷 Susan Wolf's concept of "Moral Saints," and why a world full of perfect moral exemplars would actually force us to abandon deeply meaningful human experiences like art, music, and close friendship.
🔷 The crucial difference between altruism (strict self-sacrifice) and decency, and how to carry your morality as an inspiring opportunity rather than an exhausting lifelong burden.
🔷 Thomas Nagel's concept of "conditional moral luck," and how specific historic circumstances, like the Civil Rights movement in the South or today's climate crisis, can temporarily call us to step up beyond basic decency.
🔷 How to expand your circle of sympathy (borrowing from David Hume) starting with those closest to you in everyday life, and moving outward to future generations and non-human animals.
🔷 The concept of "backward causality" and how the climate legacy of the Boomer generation directly impacts their moral standing with Gen Z and Gen Alpha.
🔷 The profound importance of curiosity and visibility in ethics, from the ethics of dog ownership to the simple, humanizing act of looking unhoused individuals in the face.
🔷 How to practically navigate politics and road rage without burning out or losing your own humanity.

This is a conversation for anyone interested in philosophy, ethics, and healthy living who wants to understand how to be a genuinely good person and improve their local communities without sacrificing their own well-being or burning out in a polarized world.

Make sure to check out Dr. May's book: A Decent Life: Morality for the Rest of Us: https://www.amazon.com/dp/022660974X

Check out our website at chasingleviathan.com

Who thinks that they can subdue Leviathan? Strength resides in its neck; dismay goes before it. When it rises up, the mighty are terrified. Nothing on earth is its equal. It is without fear. It looks down on all who are haughty; it is king over all who are proud.

These words inspired PJ Wehry to create Chasing Leviathan. Chasing Leviathan was born out of two ideals: that truth is worth pursuing but will never be subjugated, and the discipline of listening is one of the most important habits anyone can develop.

Timestamps
0:00 Introducing Dr. Todd May
3:17 Defining Decency and the Problem With Moral Exemplars
3:43 Lessons on Moral Expectations From Teresa of Avila and Elijah
7:40 Susan Wolf and the Hidden Cost of Being a Moral Saint
11:14 Altruism vs. Decency and Finding Moral Grace
14:30 Cultural Decency Norms in Copenhagen vs. the United States
15:50 Thomas Nagel and the Realities of Conditional Moral Luck
20:00 David Hume and Widening Our Circle of Sympathy
22:20 Practical Decency and the Controversial Coffee Cup Example
24:45 Why Curiosity is the True Foundation of Moral Decency
28:40 Extending Ethics to Future Generations and Non-Human Animals
32:00 David Boonin and Our Moral Obligations to the Dead
33:00 Climate Change and the Boomer Generation's Moral Legacy
35:40 Moral Individualism and the Ethics of Animal Rights
39:15 The Complexities of Factory Farming and Real-World Policy
40:40 Navigating Modern Politics With Decency
44:40 Analyzing Personal Narratives and Road Rage Values
50:50 Practical Tips for Living a More Decent Life Today

Why do we claim to love our dogs while breeding them for dependence and keeping them in environments that strip away their daily choices?

Bioethicist and author Dr. Jessica Pierce joins host PJ Wehry on Chasing Leviathan to discuss human-animal relationships and the profound interconnections between ecosystems and health.

Dr. Pierce explores the ethics of our canine bonds in her book, Who's a Good Human? Practical Exercises for Living Mindfully with Dogs. They examine how an ethical relationship isn't about demanding strict obedience from a "pet," but rather requires the skills of curiosity, collaboration, and care.

In this conversation they explore:

• Why the standard model of viewing dogs simply as pets is flawed, and how to embrace the collaborative, often messy project of living together.
• The concept of "experiential ethics"—or embodied ethics—and how mucking through complex life experiences teaches us more than abstract philosophical principles.
• How a scientific thought experiment about dogs surviving a human-erasing rapture revealed that dogs might actually be better off without us.
• The "phenomenological recalibration" Dr. Pierce experienced after becoming a volunteer firefighter in her mountain community, and how it radically shifted her perception of the natural world.
• The dark side of modern dog breeding, the cultural obsession with unhealthy breeds like pugs and French Bulldogs, and why humans are psychologically drawn to canine dependence.
• Why we should view modern companion dogs as "captive animals" and how introducing micro-choices into their daily routines can profoundly improve their welfare.
• How applying the Zen Buddhist concept of "beginner's mind" and practicing deep curiosity can transform our knee-jerk annoyances—like a dog barking—into moments of mindful communication.

This is a conversation for anyone interested in bioethics, dog ethology, and mindfulness who wants to understand how to sincerely navigate our relationship with animals while honoring their fundamental needs and agency.

Make sure to check out Dr. Pierce's book: Who's a Good Human? Practical Exercises for Living Mindfully with Dogs 👉 https://www.amazon.com/dp/0226854213/

Check out our website at chasingleviathan.com

Who thinks that they can subdue Leviathan? Strength resides in its neck; dismay goes before it. When it rises up, the mighty are terrified. Nothing on earth is its equal. It is without fear. It looks down on all who are haughty; it is king over all who are proud.

These words inspired PJ Wehry to create Chasing Leviathan. Chasing Leviathan was born out of two ideals: that truth is worth pursuing but will never be subjugated, and the discipline of listening is one of the most important habits anyone can develop.

Timestamps
00:00:00 Introducing Dr. Jessica Pierce

00:04:08 Experiential Ethics and Training Attention

00:05:22 Would Dogs Survive Without Humans?

00:07:30 Firefighting and Phenomenological Recalibration

00:16:00 The Problem with Armchair Philosophy

00:19:21 Navigating Imperfect Moral Choices

00:23:42 The Dark Side of Dog Breeding

00:26:18 The Environmental Impact of Healthcare

00:29:26 Navigating End of Life Pet Care

00:33:51 Ethical Complications of Owning Dogs

00:40:36 Recognizing Dogs as Captive Animals

00:43:10 Providing Choices for Captive Dogs

00:45:32 Engaging with Anti-Dog Sentiments

00:51:00 Why Dogs Deserve Meaningful Work

00:54:19 Applying Beginners Mind and Curiosity

Why did one of the most famous and ambitious philosophers in European history fall completely out of favor in just a few decades, and why is his totalizing view of reality still relevant today?

Northwestern University's associate professor of philosophy and president of the Hegel Society of America, Dr. Mark Alznauer, joins host PJ Wehry to discuss the breathtaking scope and historical impact of Georg Wilhelm Friedrich Hegel.

Dr. Alznauer explores Hegel's attempt to map the entire cosmos, human civilization, and religion from a single logical concept in his book, Hegel's Sole Idea: The Last Great Metaphysical System. They examine how Hegel's "encyclopedia system" served as the last grand metaphysical project in Western thought, why his immediate successors violently rejected it, and how his legacy continues to shape our modern historical awareness.

In this conversation they explore:

• Why Hegel’s system is comparable to monumental literary works like Dante's Divine Comedy or Tolstoy's War and Peace in its attempt to provide a comprehensive, organized worldview.
• The provocative way Hegel positioned his philosophy as the "Holy Spirit," claiming it could conceptually prove the theological truths that Christianity only provided in pictures or representations.
• The swift collapse of Hegel's reputation after his death in 1831, leading to the deep divide between the Right and Left Hegelians, including the materialist critiques of Ludwig Feuerbach and Karl Marx.
• Søren Kierkegaard's fierce rejection of Hegel's objective system, arguing that true Christianity requires a passionate, existential decision rather than cold, speculative contemplation.
• How Hegel’s philosophy of history—arguing that human epochs unfold with internal, logical necessity toward freedom—differs radically from the contingent, sociological explanations we rely on today.
• The neo-Hegelian influence on Francis Fukuyama’s "End of History," and how questioning the ultimate direction of political history remains deeply relevant as our democratic landscapes continue to evolve. This is a conversation for anyone interested in philosophy, history, and theology who wants to understand the dizzying ambition of the last great metaphysical system and the profound ways its failure shaped the modern intellectual landscape.

Make sure to check out Dr. Alznauer's book: Hegel's Soul Idea: The Last Great Metaphysical System 👉 https://www.amazon.com/dp/0226853675/

Check out our website at chasingleviathan.com

Who thinks that they can subdue Leviathan? Strength resides in its neck; dismay goes before it. When it rises up, the mighty are terrified. Nothing on earth is its equal. It is without fear. It looks down on all who are haughty; it is king over all who are proud.

These words inspired PJ Wehry to create Chasing Leviathan. Chasing Leviathan was born out of two ideals: that truth is worth pursuing but will never be subjugated, and the discipline of listening is one of the most important habits anyone can develop.

Timestamps
0:00 Introducing Mark Alznauer
00:01:08 Why Hegel's Encyclopedia System Matters Today
00:04:18 Comparing Hegel to Dante and Tolstoy
00:12:47 Understanding the Logos and Absolute Idea
00:17:15 How Philosophy Replaces Religion in Hegelian Thought
00:20:07 Karl Marx and the Left Hegelian Critique
00:26:54 Kierkegaard's Existential Rebellion against Hegel
00:33:56 The Ultimate Failure of Western Metaphysics
00:39:16 Charles Taylor and the Neo Hegelian Historical Method
00:44:46 Historical Necessity Versus Sociological Contingency
00:47:56 Francis Fukuyama and the End of History
00:58:40 How Hegel Influenced the Modern Social Sciences
01:00:53 Closing Thoughts

Why do morally good people often hesitate to change other people's minds, viewing persuasion as presumptuous, obnoxious, or downright creepy?

The University of Washington's professor of philosophy, Dr. Colin Marshall, joins host PJ Wehry to discuss how to successfully bridge deep divides in our highly polarized climate.

Dr. Marshall explores the ethics and psychology of civil persuasion in his book, Just Hear Me Out: How to Change Minds Without Lies, Bullshit, or Moral Compromise. They examine how genuine persuasion isn't about manipulation or aggressive takedowns , but rather requires a delicate balance of respect, compassion, and the right environment.

In this conversation they explore:

• Why the fallout of the 2016 US presidential election pushed Dr. Marshall from pure theoretical philosophy into finding practical tools for civil engagement.
• The crucial difference between manipulative persuasion—where people are treated as obstacles to maneuver—and civil persuasion that honors a person's complete humanity.
• How combining Immanuel Kant's emphasis on rational respect with Arthur Schopenhauer's focus on deep compassion creates a coherent framework for changing minds.
• Why attempting to persuade someone at the Thanksgiving table almost always fails, and the importance of establishing an "attention-friendly context" like grabbing a coffee or a beer.
• Incredible real-world examples of successful persuasion, including Daryl Davis persuading extremists to leave the KKK and Megan Phelps-Roper leaving the Westboro Baptist Church after patient, charitable interactions on Twitter.
• The concept of "moral myopia"—the deeply human tendency to become so hyper-focused on one moral issue or our own self-respect that we lose sight of the other person's bandwidth and feelings.
• The psychology of building trust, and why establishing warmth and shared humanity must always come before proving your intellectual competence.

This is a conversation for anyone interested in philosophy, psychology, and healthy communication who wants to understand how to sincerely navigate our modern disagreements without sacrificing their own moral integrity.

Make sure to check out Dr. Marshall's book: Just Hear Me Out: How to Change Minds without Lies, Bullshit, or Moral Compromise 👉 https://www.amazon.com/dp/0226842002/

Check out our website at chasingleviathan.com

Who thinks that they can subdue Leviathan? Strength resides in its neck; dismay goes before it. When it rises up, the mighty are terrified. Nothing on earth is its equal. It is without fear. It looks down on all who are haughty; it is king over all who are proud.

These words inspired PJ Wehry to create Chasing Leviathan. Chasing Leviathan was born out of two ideals: that truth is worth pursuing but will never be subjugated, and the discipline of listening is one of the most important habits anyone can develop.

Timestamps
0:00 Introducing Dr. Colin Marshall
1:17 Why Good People Avoid Persuasion After the 2016 Election
4:32 Respect and Compassion in Kant and Schopenhauer
6:16 Balancing Respect and Compassion in Difficult Conversations
8:38 Thanksgiving, Arguments, and Creating Better Conversation Contexts
9:09 Daryl Davis, Jane Addams, and Megan Phelps Roper as Persuasion Case Studies
13:17 Curiosity, Compassion, and Seeing People You Disagree With
15:57 Self Respect, Boundaries, and When to Disengage or Walk Away
18:15 Mr. Rogers' Congress Testimony and Quiet Moral Confidence
19:35 Manipulation Versus Civil Persuasion and the Marionette Metaphor
24:32 Attention Friendly Contexts and Why Rushing Arguments Fails
33:42 Moral Myopia and Missing Key Ethical Pieces in Arguments
40:34 Respect Versus Trust and When Not to Trust Someone
44:44 Warmth, Competence, and the Psychology of Building Trust
47:53 Practical Ways to Build Trust and Show You Know What You are Talking About
52:02 Closing Thoughts

In this quick update, host PJ Weary shares some news about the future production schedule of the podcast. Thank you all for your continued support. We continue to having you join us for the next conversation.

Check out our website at chasingleviathan.com

Who thinks that they can subdue Leviathan? Strength resides in its neck; dismay goes before it. When it rises up, the mighty are terrified. Nothing on earth is its equal. It is without fear. It looks down on all who are haughty; it is king over all who are proud.

These words inspired PJ Wehry to create Chasing Leviathan. Chasing Leviathan was born out of two ideals: that truth is worth pursuing but will never be subjugated, and the discipline of listening is one of the most important habits anyone can develop.

What happens when a feeling we assume is a universal human experience is actually shaped, defined, and even created by our specific cultural language and material conditions?

Macquarie University's Future Fellow at the School of Humanities, Dr. Katie Barclay, joins host PJ Wehry to discuss the overlooked complexities of a deeply human emotion.

Dr. Barclay explores the history and cultural variety of this feeling in her book, Loneliness in World History. They examine how loneliness is frequently not just an internal psychological state, but rather a reflection of our relationships with our environment, our community, and the specific language we use to make sense of our world.

In this conversation they explore:

• How the "language trap" challenges our ability to compare emotions across cultures, and why translating words for love and loneliness requires understanding their thick cultural context.
• The surprising nighttime weeping rituals of the Kaluli people in Papua New Guinea, where singing about loneliness serves as a cathartic communal release of pain.
• Why the historical narrative of human "modernization"—moving from supposedly primitive communal selves to modern individualized subjects—carries deeply colonial and problematic assumptions.
• The physiological elements of isolation, including "touch hunger" and how the modern internet trend of Mukbang satiates the deep-seated desire to eat alongside a community.
• How physical places and material architecture—from fairy-tale forests to utopian high-rise flats and car-centric suburbs—actively teach us to feel isolated and shape our emotional experiences.
• The paradox of the "lonely genius," revealing how the supposedly solitary pursuit of art and creativity is fundamentally dependent on an unseen network of community support and labor.

This is a conversation for anyone interested in world history, anthropology, and the humanities who wants to understand the cultural weight behind our everyday emotions and how we can navigate our increasingly isolated, digital modern age.

Make sure to check out Dr. Barclay's book: Loneliness in World History 👉 https://www.amazon.com/dp/1032359811/

Check out our website at chasingleviathan.com

Who thinks that they can subdue Leviathan? Strength resides in its neck; dismay goes before it. When it rises up, the mighty are terrified. Nothing on earth is its equal. It is without fear. It looks down on all who are haughty; it is king over all who are proud.

These words inspired PJ Wehry to create Chasing Leviathan. Chasing Leviathan was born out of two ideals: that truth is worth pursuing but will never be subjugated, and the discipline of listening is one of the most important habits anyone can develop.

Timestamps
0:00 Introducing Dr. Katie Barclay
0:48 Why a Love Historian Studied Loneliness
2:07 How to Study Loneliness Across Cultures
4:03 The Language Trap in Emotion and Translation
5:34 Imperialism, Medicine, and Measuring Pain
7:01 Thick Cultural Definitions of Emotion
8:43 Humor, Culture, and Everyday Misunderstandings
10:34 Defining Loneliness as Pain and Social Mismatch
13:01 Questioning Modern Western Psychology on Loneliness
14:07 Kaluli Ritual of Shared Grief and Loneliness
16:44 Community Survival and Existential Loneliness
20:15 Modernization Narratives and the Communal Self
23:36 East/West Stereotypes about Self and Loneliness
27:17 Philosophers, Hunger, and the Limits of Elite Theory
30:45 Bodies, Touch, Hunger, and the Physiology of Loneliness
32:22 Forests, Liminal Spaces, and Emotional Landscapes
36:03 Colonization, Land Displacement, and Indigenous Loneliness
38:12 Suburbs, High Rise Flats, and Designed Isolation
44:48 Solitude, Creativity, and the Myth of the Lone Genius
49:08 Closing Thoughts

What happens when the simple act of slowing down a metronome reveals the exact limits of our attention, and how might our physical body size secretly dictate the way we experience rhythm and reality?

Dr. David Gilden, a professor in the Department of Psychology at the University of Texas, Austin, joins host PJ Wehry to discuss the overlooked physical and biological laws shaping human perception.

Dr. Gilden explores the human response to living in time in his book, The Psychology of Human Temporality. They examine how the world we experience is not rote or matter-of-fact, but actively created by our minds through relationships, and why those cognitive connections inevitably fall apart.

In this conversation they explore:

• How our minds generate emergent properties—like transforming isolated claps into rhythm or sequential notes into a melody—to actively construct the world we experience.
• The phenomenon of "islands," demonstrating how introducing just a couple seconds of silence between beats or gestures destroys our ability to perceive continuity, leaving us lost.
• Why the traditional psychological view of memory as a storage container of facts falls short, and how a physics-based approach—where the past dynamically influences the future, much like weather systems or financial markets—better explains how we lose our train of thought.
• The metaphor of "cooling coffee" applied to the mind, illustrating how a sensory input temporarily heats the brain, creating a brief window for connection before the activation energy decays according to natural laws.
• The biological science of allometry and the radical hypothesis that a person's physical body size and surface area might actually dictate their cognitive decay time.
• Surprising experimental data revealing that taller people can actually maintain slower rhythmic connections than shorter people, suggesting the mind's shedding of activation mirrors the body's shedding of physical heat.

This is a conversation for anyone interested in experimental psychology, theoretical physics, and music who wants to understand the hidden biological mechanisms structuring our everyday perception of the passage of time.

Make sure to check out Dr. Gilden's book: The Psychology of Human Temporality 👉 https://www.amazon.com/dp/100940878X/

Check out our website at chasingleviathan.com

Who thinks that they can subdue Leviathan? Strength resides in its neck; dismay goes before it. When it rises up, the mighty are terrified. Nothing on earth is its equal. It is without fear. It looks down on all who are haughty; it is king over all who are proud.

These words inspired PJ Wehry to create Chasing Leviathan. Chasing Leviathan was born out of two ideals: that truth is worth pursuing but will never be subjugated, and the discipline of listening is one of the most important habits anyone can develop.

Timestamps
0:00 Introducing Dr. David Gilden

0:52 Why Dr. Gilden Wrote The Psychology of Human Temporality

5:27 From Time Perception Research to Body and Biology

7:21 Experimental Psychologist Versus Popular Science Writer

11:54 Three Core Equations Behind Forgetting and Time

12:25 How Minds Create Relationships and Emergent Properties

15:01 Rhythm, Melody, and Emergent Feelings in Music

18:41 Loss of Musical Connection

21:30 When Temporal Separation Turns Patterns into Isolated Events

22:51 Trained Musicians, Rehearsal, and Internal Subdivision

24:58 Bitter Metronomes and the Two Second Limit of Connection

29:48 From Duration of Events to the Problem of Memory

32:23 Redefining Memory as Influence of Past on Present

38:52 Why We Misunderstand Memory through Containment Metaphors

44:56 Cooling Coffee as a Model for Mental Decay

47:35 What Actually Decays When We Lose the Thread

52:47 Exponential Decay and Newtonian Cooling in the Mind

55:20 Human Attention Lifetime

58:18 From Formal Theory of Decay to Allometry

1:02:20 Body Size, Metabolism, and Kleiber Style Scaling Laws

1:05:38 Can Body Size Shape How We Experience Time

1:09:31 Testing Rhythm and Body Size With Drumming Experiments

1:11:48 Analyzing When People Lose the Beat Across Tempos

1:13:05 Shared Law for Heart Rate, Body Size, and Attention Decay

1:16:47 Surface Area, Heat Loss, and Cognitive Cooling Metaphor

1:18:11 Closing Thoughts

What happens when we blindly accept the monuments in our built world, treating them as permanent fixtures of history rather than invitations to critique the traditions they represent?

The University of West Georgia's Emerita Professor of Philosophy, Dr. Janet Donohoe, joins host PJ Wehry to discuss the overlooked dynamism of our built environment and how we interact with public memory.

Dr. Donohoe explores the complex ties between physical spaces and tradition in her book, Remembering Places: A Phenomenological Study of the Relationship between Memory and Place. They examine how the removal of monuments is not an erasure of history but a rewriting of it, and how understanding our physical world can help us critically engage with the narratives we pass on to future generations.

In this conversation they explore:

• How monuments function as a "palimpsest," where tearing them down doesn't remove the place but instead writes over it, leaving underlying traces of memory and tradition.
• Husserl’s concepts of the "home world" and "alien world," demonstrating how our childhood environments physically write themselves onto our bodies and set our normative baseline for experiencing new places.
• The striking contrast between the World War II Memorial, which uses its overbearing scale to dictate a narrative of American power, and the Vietnam Veterans Memorial, an open space that invites profound personal reflection and critique.
• Why rushing to memorialize tragedies, such as the push to immediately erect 9/11 monuments, often solidifies a narrative of victimization without allowing for the necessary time to process and understand the long-term impact.
• The dual meaning of the word "monument"—to remember and to be mindful—which calls us to actively critique our traditions rather than blindly perpetuating them.
• How the meaning of a monument is never truly "set in stone," but rather emerges dynamically in the continuous encounter between the viewer and the physical space.

This is a conversation for anyone interested in philosophy, architecture, and history who wants to understand the profound weight behind our built environment and how we process the evolving, physical traditions of our modern age.

Make sure to check out Dr. Donohoe's book: Remembering Places: A Phenomenological Study of the Relationship between Memory and Place 👉 https://www.amazon.com/dp/0739187163

Check out our website at chasingleviathan.com

Who thinks that they can subdue Leviathan? Strength resides in its neck; dismay goes before it. When it rises up, the mighty are terrified. Nothing on earth is its equal. It is without fear. It looks down on all who are haughty; it is king over all who are proud.

These words inspired PJ Wehry to create Chasing Leviathan. Chasing Leviathan was born out of two ideals: that truth is worth pursuing but will never be subjugated, and the discipline of listening is one of the most important habits anyone can develop.

Timestamps
0:00 Introducing Janet Donohoe

0:54 Why Study Memory, Place, and Monuments

2:32 Why We Erect and Remove Monuments as Palimpsests

5:37 Digital Erasure, Physical Traces, and Afterlives Of Data

7:53 Home World, Alien World, and Experiencing Home

12:04 Smell Memory and Bodily Responses to Place

15:10 Modern Writing Erasure and The Palimpsest Metaphor

16:14 Marginalia Layered Reading And Material Texts

17:38 From Individual Body to Collective Memory and Tradition

21:19 Critique Freedom and How Monuments Shape Narrative

23:15 Dynamism Tradition and Renewing the Built World

26:40 Beyond Keeping or Tearing Down Monuments

27:37 Monuments Disrupting Habitual Life and Calling Forth Thought

28:21 Homeless Jesus Statue Orlando and Urban Disruption

29:50 The National Mall Subversive Memorials and Vietnam Wall

33:41 Hero Worship Mourning and the Hidden Costs of War

38:51 Hegel, Gadamer, and how Meanings of Monuments Evolve

42:42 9/11 Memorials, Grief, and Owning Public Memory

45:23 Closing Thoughts

Why is it that an ephemeral arrangement of sounds can move us to tears, while the exact same sequence might sound like chaotic noise to someone from another culture?

Reader in Cognitive Science at Queen Mary University of London and Honorary Professor of Neuroscience at Aarhus University, Dr. Marcus Pearce joins host PJ Wehry to discuss the overlooked significance of our brain's probabilistic predictions.

Dr. Pearce explores the computational mysteries of how we process sound in his book, Learning to Listen, Listening to Learn: Music Perception and the Psychology of Enculturation. They examine how our pleasure in music stems from an ingrained psychological drive to predict the future, and how understanding this can help us map out cultural evolution.

In this conversation they explore:

• How our brains act as statistical prediction machines, constantly building internal models to anticipate the next note for an evolutionary survival advantage.
• The surprising realization that the perception of consonance and dissonance is not biologically universal, as shown by differing reactions in cultures like the Chimane of Bolivia.
• Why the pleasure we derive from music relies on an "inverted U-shaped" relationship, where a balance between predictable patterns and complex surprises maximizes our enjoyment.
• The use of interpretable probabilistic AI models, rather than "black box" neural networks, to better understand how a listener's perception matures within a musical tradition.
• How music acts as a safe training ground for humans to vicariously experience complex emotional states and hone cognitive processes without real-world risk.
• The role of cultural evolution in music, explaining why groundbreaking, highly complex composers like Stravinsky were initially rejected by audiences before eventually becoming standard repertoire.

This is a conversation for anyone interested in cognitive science, evolutionary psychology, and musicology who wants to understand the biological weight behind our favorite songs and how we process the beautifully complex structures of human sound.

Make sure to check out Dr. Pearce's book: Learning to Listen, Listening to Learn: Music Perception and the Psychology of Enculturation 👉 https://www.amazon.com/dp/0198848005/

Check out our website at chasingleviathan.com

Who thinks that they can subdue Leviathan? Strength resides in its neck; dismay goes before it. When it rises up, the mighty are terrified. Nothing on earth is its equal. It is without fear. It looks down on all who are haughty; it is king over all who are proud.

These words inspired PJ Wehry to create Chasing Leviathan. Chasing Leviathan was born out of two ideals: that truth is worth pursuing but will never be subjugated, and the discipline of listening is one of the most important habits anyone can develop.

Timestamps
0:00 Introducing Marcus Pearce
0:49 Why Music is Universal
1:38 How Music Perception Theories Miss Global Cultural Diversity
4:19 Cultural Examples of Consonance, Dissonance, and Musical Pleasure
7:28 AI Modeling of Music Perception through Statistical Learning
10:48 Why Use Probabilistic Models Instead of Neural Networks
14:47 The Markov Assumption and Limits of Local Musical Prediction
17:26 Non-Local Musical Structure, Themes, Keys, and Listener Memory
20:57 How Simple Probabilistic Models Explain Surprising Amounts of Listening
22:57 Complexity, Predictability, and the Inverted "U" Of Musical Pleasure
27:32 Learning Progress Theory and Why We Enjoy Moderate Uncertainty
33:34 Cultural Evolution of Music From Stravinsky to Modern Film Editing
38:07 Musical Training, Individual Differences, and Complexity Preferences
41:44 How Music Evokes Emotion, Arousal, and Valence
47:59 Closing Thoughts

What happens when we assume our modern educational institutions and traditions of debate sprung from a vacuum, dismissing the Middle Ages as an uncritical era blinded by faith?

Kenyon College's Assistant Professor of History, Dr. Alex Novikoff, joins host PJ Wehry to discuss the overlooked intellectual vibrancy and argumentative spirit of the medieval world.

Dr. Novikoff explores the history and impact of these practices in his book, The Medieval Culture of Disputation: Pedagogy, Practice and Performance. They examine how the scholastic love of debate wasn't just confined to the ivory tower, but became a performative, public spectacle that deeply shaped medieval culture and laid the foundations for how we learn, argue, and graduate today.

In this conversation they explore:

• How the pervasive myth of the uncritical, tradition-bound "Dark Ages" ignores a historical reality where medieval thinkers used rigorous argumentation as tools to penetrate the universe's deepest mysteries.
• The intellectual genealogy of debate, tracing how the 12th century recovered and repurposed the dialectic and logic of ancient figures like Aristotle.
• The lasting pedagogical impact of charismatic teachers like Anselm of Beck, who utilized a question-and-answer dialogue format to shape a whole generation of students.
• The surprising realization that the modern university system, from the concept of a faculty guild to the pageantry of caps, gowns, and hooding ceremonies, is a direct inheritance of medieval clerical and scholastic culture.
• How the structure of scholastic disputation escaped the classroom to influence broader cultural expressions, from the dramatic tension in literature to the resolution of voices in early contrapuntal music.

This is a conversation for anyone interested in intellectual history, pedagogy, and the humanities who wants to understand the ancient roots of our modern academic institutions and the enduring value of engaging with alternative perspectives.

Make sure to check out Dr. Novikoff's book: The Medieval Culture of Disputation: Pedagogy, Practice, and Performance 👉 https://www.amazon.com/dp/0812245385

Check out our website at chasingleviathan.com

Who thinks that they can subdue Leviathan? Strength resides in its neck; dismay goes before it. When it rises up, the mighty are terrified. Nothing on earth is its equal. It is without fear. It looks down on all who are haughty; it is king over all who are proud.

These words inspired PJ Wehry to create Chasing Leviathan. Chasing Leviathan was born out of two ideals: that truth is worth pursuing but will never be subjugated, and the discipline of listening is one of the most important habits anyone can develop.

Timestamps
0:00 Introducing Alex Novikoff

0:43 Why Medieval Culture of Disputation Matters

2:57 Debunking Myths About the Middle Ages

7:24 Angels on The Head of a Pin Stereotype

9:20 Dialectic Rhetoric and the Trivium

12:29 Recovering Aristotle and the New Logic

15:55 Faith, Reason, and Long Traditions of Debate

18:48 Contrapuntal Music as Intellectual Debate

20:56 Who Was Anselm of Beck and Canterbury

24:27 Medieval Teachers and Intellectual Lineage

28:03 Question and Answer Traditions Across Cultures

31:27 Birth Of Universities and Academic Guilds

34:53 Why Institutions and Regulation Still Matter

38:08 Moral Panics, Technology, and Historical Perspective

40:38 The Medieval Roots of Graduation

45:10 Medieval Student Life

47:48 Meaning of Bachelor, Master, and Doctorate Degrees

49:32 What Cultural History Reveals About Debate

52:08 Medieval Lessons for AI, Academia, and Our Future

54:09 Closing Thoughts

What happens when our modern visual culture, which demands we constantly observe global atrocities on our phones, actually leads to apathy instead of a meaningful moral response?

The University of Chicago's Associate Professor of English Language and Literature, Dr. Ben Saltzman, joins host PJ Wehry to discuss the overlooked significance of a common, deeply human reaction.

Dr. Saltzman explores the history and meaning of this physical act in his book, Turning Away, The Poetics of an Ancient Gesture. They examine how looking away is frequently not a sign of disengagement, but rather an indication of deep emotional involvement, and how understanding this can help us navigate the horrors of the contemporary world.

In this conversation they explore:

• How the book traces archaic scenes—like the ancient painting of Agamemnon's sacrifice of Iphigenia—by treating them as rocks tossed into a pool, following their cultural and artistic ripples across time.
• The surprising realization that turning away from a distressing event often signifies a deep engagement with the pain of the world, rather than simple indifference.
• Why our contemporary habit of scrolling through images of suffering on our phones can create a false sense of moral duty while actually fostering an empty act of looking.
• The concept of the divided soul, exemplified by Plato's tale of Leontius, which demonstrates how humans experience an inner conflict and oscillation between looking and turning away.
• How ancient rhetoric and art utilized the covered face to convey states of emotional extremity that existed entirely at the limits of representation.
• The relationship between covering one's eyes and the acquisition of painful knowledge, illustrated by figures ranging from a newly fallen Adam and Eve to a young girl watching a cruel scientific experiment on a bird.

This is a conversation for anyone interested in literary studies, art history, and the humanities who wants to understand the historical weight behind our everyday instincts and how we process the painful realities of our modern age.

Make sure to check out Dr. Saltzman's book: Turning Away: The Poetics of an Ancient Gesture 👉 https://www.amazon.com/dp/0226847225

Check out our website at chasingleviathan.com

Who thinks that they can subdue Leviathan? Strength resides in its neck; dismay goes before it. When it rises up, the mighty are terrified. Nothing on earth is its equal. It is without fear. It looks down on all who are haughty; it is king over all who are proud.

These words inspired PJ Wehry to create Chasing Leviathan. Chasing Leviathan was born out of two ideals: that truth is worth pursuing but will never be subjugated, and the discipline of listening is one of the most important habits anyone can develop.

Timestamps
0:00 Introducing Ben Saltzman

1:09 Adam, Eve, and Turning Away

4:38 Noticing The Gesture of Turning Away in Life and Art

5:54 What Poetics Means For This Ancient Gesture

9:19 Greek Chorus Structure and The Rock and Ripples Metaphor

10:38 Agamemnon, Grief, and The Limits of Representation

16:27 The Moral Center of Turning Away Versus Indifference

23:21 Plato’s Leontius and The Ambivalence of Looking And Not Looking

32:43 Adam And Eve, Knowledge, and Death Across Art History

38:22 Science, Suffering, and The Cost Of Knowledge

44:22 Turning Away in the Digital Age and Our Inherited Iconography

46:57 Closing Thoughts

What happens when history remembers a brilliant young philosopher for his eccentric interests rather than the intellectual foundations he laid for the modern world?

Maynooth University's lecturer and assistant professor, Dr. Amos Edelheit , joins host PJ Wehry to discuss the misunderstood legacy of Giovanni Pico della Mirandola and his book, A Philosopher at the Crossroads: Giovanni Pico della Mirandola's Encounter with Scholastic Philosophy.

Dr. Edelheit explores Pico's unique position bridging Renaissance humanism and Renaissance scholasticism. They examine how modern scholars have fundamentally distorted Pico's legacy by fixating on his fascination with Jewish Kabbalah, while neglecting his deep scholastic background, fails to understand Pico, as well as the very roots of modernity itself.

In this conversation they explore:

• How Pico's youthful audacity led him to attempt an open, international debate in Rome with his 900 Theses.
• The scholarly distortion that hyper-focused on Pico's interest in Jewish mysticism , where he sought to find the origins of Christian mysteries.
• The fascinating evolution from medieval to Renaissance scholasticism, marking the moment formal philosophy stepped out of the university classroom and into public palaces and squares.
• The realization that the "Middle Ages" is actually a pejorative concept invented by Renaissance humanists to dismiss the centuries between themselves and antiquity.
• Pico's groundbreaking defense of philosophy as an independent discipline with intrinsic value and a distinct way of life.
• Why modern philosophy could not exist without scholasticism, and how thinkers from Descartes onward still had to battle with its established terminology. This is a conversation for anyone interested in intellectual history, Renaissance philosophy, and understanding the foundational forces that actually shaped modern thought.

Make sure to check out Dr. Edelheit's book: A Philosopher at the Crossroads: Giovanni Pico della Mirandola's Encounter with Scholastic Philosophy 👉 https://www.amazon.com/dp/9004445099

Check out our website at chasingleviathan.com

Who thinks that they can subdue Leviathan? Strength resides in its neck; dismay goes before it. When it rises up, the mighty are terrified. Nothing on earth is its equal. It is without fear. It looks down on all who are haughty; it is king over all who are proud.

These words inspired PJ Wehry to create Chasing Leviathan. Chasing Leviathan was born out of two ideals: that truth is worth pursuing but will never be subjugated, and the discipline of listening is one of the most important habits anyone can develop.

Timestamps
0:00 Introducing Dr Amos Edelheit

0:54 Pico’s Life, Library, and Renaissance Curiosity

6:18 Pico, Kabbalah, and Misreadings in Modern Scholarship

9:28 What Renaissance Humanism and Scholasticism Really Mean

19:36 Vernacular Writing, Urban Change, and New Audiences

21:06 Pico’s Oration, Human Dignity, and the 900 Theses Debate

24:29 Why Pico’s Scholastic Background Changes Everything

28:34 Scholastic Language, Modern Philosophy, and Descartes

32:10 From Scholasticism to Neo-Thomism and Modern Theology

33:46 Oration on the Dignity of Man and Its Legacy

40:00 How Pico Shapes Modern Ideas of Dignity

What happens when a society's pursuit of pure rationality and radical individualism actually threatens to dissolve the trust that holds it together?

Notre Dame University's Paul G. Kimball Professor of Arts and Letters, Dr. Vittorio Hösle, joins host PJ Wehry to discuss the overlooked genius of Giambattista Vico and the hidden dangers of modern rationalism.

Dr. Hösle explores the philosophical foundations of the human sciences through his book Vico's New Science of the Intersubjective World. They examine why projecting modern thought onto ancient history fundamentally distorts our understanding of the past, and how recognizing the cyclical nature of civilizations can warn us against our own potential decay.

In this conversation they explore:

• How Vico established a rigorous "new science" focused on the common nature of nations, effectively laying the groundwork for modern sociology and the human sciences.
• The profound realization that archaic humans experienced the world through sensual metaphors and mythic wisdom rather than abstract concepts or romantic love.
• The crucial discovery of the fallacy of anachronism—and why erudite scholars constantly make the mistake of projecting their own modern mindset onto the past.
• Why pure rationality and universal rational egoism, termed the "barbarism of reflection," can dissolve societal trust and lead to civilizational collapse.
• The sobering reality that historical progress is not guaranteed, and that the collapse of high civilization remains a persistent threat even today.
• Vico's method of conceptually understanding archaic societies by comparing epochs, even when directly empathizing with their foreign mindset is impossible.

This is a conversation for anyone interested in philosophy, sociology, and history who wants to understand the foundational forces that shape human societies and the historical blind spots of the modern age.

Make sure to check out Dr. Hösle's book: Vico's New Science of the Intersubjective World 👉 https://www.amazon.com/dp/0268100284

Check out our website at chasingleviathan.com

Who thinks that they can subdue Leviathan? Strength resides in its neck; dismay goes before it. When it rises up, the mighty are terrified. Nothing on earth is its equal. It is without fear. It looks down on all who are haughty; it is king over all who are proud.

These words inspired PJ Wehry to create Chasing Leviathan. Chasing Leviathan was born out of two ideals: that truth is worth pursuing but will never be subjugated, and the discipline of listening is one of the most important habits anyone can develop.

Timestamps
0:00 - Introducing Dr. Vittorio Hösle
0:38 - Why Write an Introduction to Vico's New Science?
6:20 - Gadamer’s Selective Reception of Vico
8:50 - What is The New Science? (Vico’s Sociological Project)
16:50 - What Did "Science" Actually Mean in Vico's Time?
23:25 - Vico vs. Wilhelm Dilthey: Grounding the Human Sciences
25:50 - Vico's Core Discovery: The Archaic Mindset
32:50 - The Three Stages of Culture (Gods, Heroes, and Men)
36:35 - Modern Relevance & The Danger of Civilizational Collapse
42:25 - The Function of Poetic and Mythic Wisdom
46:00 - The "Barbarism of Reflection" & Radical Individualism
47:50 - Vico’s Major Contributions to Modern Historiography
52:20 - The Fallacy of Anachronism
55:40 - Closing Thoughts

What happens when secular culture does a better job of shaping our desires and beliefs than the church?

Trinity Anglican Seminary theology professor Dr. Alex Fogelman joins host PJ Wehry to discuss the decline of discipleship and how modern culture invisibly catechizes us.

Dr. Fogelman explores the historical roots of foundational instruction and his book Making Disciples: Catechesis in History, Theology, and Practice. They examine why pragmatic approaches to church growth fail and how a comprehensive introduction to the faith can deeply root believers against the shifting winds of the modern age.

In this conversation they explore:

• Why the "learning of faith" is essential, even though faith is a divine gift, to help form a new humanity.
• How the endless scroll of social media, pop culture, and shopping malls act as powerful forms of "cultural catechesis" that shape our vision of the good life.
• The flaws of imitating cultural forms, like "Christian Pokémon" or "Christian AI," and why simply swapping out the content ignores how the medium shapes the message.
• How the "TikTok age" exacerbates a sense of ephemeral rootlessness that prevents true human flourishing.
• The danger of church pragmatism and why sustainable ministry must integrate theology, history, and practice together.
• Practical strategies for making catechesis the "front porch" of the church, where the faith is passed on person-to-person rather than through an automated screen.

This is a conversation for anyone interested in theology, cultural analysis, and discipleship who wants to understand the hidden liturgies shaping our minds and how to build a more grounded faith.

Make sure to check out Dr. Fogleman's book: Making Disciples: Catechesis in History, Theology, and Practice 👉 https://www.amazon.com/dp/0802883850#

Check out our website at chasingleviathan.com

Who thinks that they can subdue Leviathan? Strength resides in its neck; dismay goes before it. When it rises up, the mighty are terrified. Nothing on earth is its equal. It is without fear. It looks down on all who are haughty; it is king over all who are proud.

These words inspired PJ Wehry to create Chasing Leviathan. Chasing Leviathan was born out of two ideals: that truth is worth pursuing but will never be subjugated, and the discipline of listening is one of the most important habits anyone can develop.

Timestamps

0:00 - Episode Introducing Dr. Alex Fogleman
0:19 - Defining "Catechesis"
4:57 - The Decline of Discipleship and the Influence of J.I. Packer
11:16 - "Cultural Catechesis" vs. Christian Instruction
15:34 - Real-World Examples of Cultural Catechesis
20:44 - Competing Rites of Passage
23:38 - Understanding the "Learning of Faith"
30:57 - Why History, Theology, and Practice Must Go Together
35:51 - Moving Past Pragmatism
41:17 - Building a Catechetical "Front Porch"

What happens when we stop treating therapy as a search for a hidden "inner life" and instead use it to explore our shared, lived world?

Seattle University Senior Adjunct Professor of Philosophy and Psychology and Licensed Therapist Dr. Jerome Veith joins host PJ Wehry to discuss the intersection of hermeneutics and clinical practice.

Dr. Veith explores the themes of his book Gadamer and the Transmission of History and his personal journey from academic theory to doing philosophy every day with his clients. They examine how philosophical concepts like historicity and charitability can transform the way we listen, heal, and understand our place in the world.

In this conversation they explore:

• The profound difference between academic listening and therapeutic listening, and why "charitability" must balance the "hermeneutics of suspicion".
• How our relationship to the past is malleable, and why viewing our "historicity" as a lived texture can relieve the burden of anxiety.
• The flaws of the modern hunt for an isolated "authentic self" and why true authenticity requires acknowledging our shared linguistic and cultural worlds.
• Why rigid therapeutic methods often fall short, and the value of "courting surprise" rather than relying strictly on predefined techniques.
• The concept of Bildung (formation) and how engaging with history helps us realize we don't have to carry the burden of being human entirely by ourselves.
• How reclaiming our focus and viewing therapy as an "attentional practice" can serve as a profound gift that changes both ourselves and others.

This is a conversation for anyone interested in psychology, philosophy, and the healing arts who wants to understand how deep listening and shared attention can transform our lives.

Make sure to check out Dr. Veith's book: Gadamer and the Transmission of History 👉 https://www.amazon.com/dp/0253015987/

Check out our website at chasingleviathan.com

Who thinks that they can subdue Leviathan? Strength resides in its neck; dismay goes before it. When it rises up, the mighty are terrified. Nothing on earth is its equal. It is without fear. It looks down on all who are haughty; it is king over all who are proud.

These words inspired PJ Wehry to create Chasing Leviathan. Chasing Leviathan was born out of two ideals: that truth is worth pursuing but will never be subjugated, and the discipline of listening is one of the most important habits anyone can develop.

Timestamps
00:00 – Introducing Dr. Jerome Veith
02:14 – Transitioning from Philosophy to Licensed Therapy
04:21 – Academic vs. Therapeutic Listening
09:07 – Balancing Deference with the "Hermeneutics of Suspicion"
10:43 – Navigating Anxiety
13:22 – Preconditions for Dialogue
16:50 – Exploring Biographical and Historical Situatedness
21:50 – Phronesis and the Texture of Lived Experience
27:27 – Hermeneutics in Pedagogy
34:44 – Teaching a Room vs. Healing an Individual
37:51 – Socratic Dialogue, Rigid Methods, and "Courting Surprise"
42:24 – Bildung and Reclaiming Humanism
46:15 – The Trap of Modern "Authenticity"
51:47 – Bridging Hermeneutics and Psychology
54:54 – Closing Thoughts

This episode was recorded before the tragic news of Dr. Habermas' death. We deeply mourn his passing. Dr Habermas was a man who carefully and passionately pursued the truth, and so we hope that today's episode, in that spirit, we'll pay a small tribute to his legacy.

What happens to our democracy when the "written word" is replaced by the "viral image," and reasoned debate is drowned out by the hunt for clicks?

University of Groningen professor Dr. Peter Verovšek joins host PJ Wehry to discuss the legacy of Jürgen Habermas and how the digital age is transforming the democratic public sphere.

Dr. Verovšek explores the core arguments of his book, Jürgen Habermas: Public Intellectual and Engaged Critical Theorist. They examine the philosophical evolution of Habermas’ work, from his early critiques of post-war Germany to his recent concerns regarding the "new" structural transformation of the public sphere caused by social media.

In this conversation they explore:

• The "Desk" of the Intellectual: Why Habermas views the written word as the primary tool for public engagement and why he performs his role as an academic from the "primary place" of his desk.
• The First Generation vs. Habermas: How Habermas moved Critical Theory away from the "negativism" of Adorno and Horkheimer toward a consistent account where theory and practice flow from one another.
• The "Life World" vs. Systems: Why we must protect our day-to-day cultural lives—the "life world"—from being "colonized" by the impersonal logics of money and administrative power.
• Social Media as a "Double-Edged Sword": How the internet turned every citizen into a potential author while simultaneously removing the editors and fact-checkers essential for democratic legitimacy.
• The Intellectual vs. The Guru: Why true public intellectuals act as "early warning systems" for society rather than "gurus" who monetize their following or tell people how to live.
• The Crisis of Digital Authorship: Why the shift from reasoned argumentation to "appearance" and "mobilization" makes it increasingly difficult for marginalized voices to be heard in a saturated media environment.

This is a conversation for anyone interested in political philosophy and media ethics who wants to understand the forces reshaping our democracy and how to reclaim a meaningful public square.

Make sure to check out Dr. Verovšek's book: Jürgen Habermas: Public Intellectual and Engaged Critical Theorist 👉 https://a.co/d/09IMLbLh

Check out our website at chasingleviathan.com

Who thinks that they can subdue Leviathan? Strength resides in its neck; dismay goes before it. When it rises up, the mighty are terrified. Nothing on earth is its equal. It is without fear. It looks down on all who are haughty; it is king over all who are proud.

These words inspired PJ Wehry to create Chasing Leviathan. Chasing Leviathan was born out of two ideals: that truth is worth pursuing but will never be subjugated, and the discipline of listening is one of the most important habits anyone can develop.

Timestamps
0:00 Introduction & Tribute To Jürgen Habermas
0:46 Introducing Peter Verovšek
2:59 Why This Habermas Book Now
4:13 Discovering Habermas Through Continental Philosophy
5:00 Habermas As A Formative Voice In Modern Germany
5:59 Habermas' Public Writings Versus Academic Philosophy
8:52 How Translation And Publishing Shaped Habermas Reception
9:16 Why Habermas Matters In Late 20th Century Philosophy
10:24 Habermas' Childhood Under Nazism And Postwar Germany
13:38 Postwar Philosophy Disillusionment And Political Activism
15:36 Joining The Frankfurt School
17:53 Structural Transformation & The Habilitation Controversy
19:45 The Student Movement 1968
22:00 Leaving Frankfurt & Refocusing on Theory
23:10 Theory Of Communicative Action & a New Critical Theory
23:52 What It Means to be an Engaged Critical Theorist
29:08 German Reunification, European Integration, & Democratic Legitimacy
32:25 Lifeworld Versus System And The Power Of Global Capital
36:42 The Idea Of The Life World In The Phenomenological Tradition
37:03 Early Attempts To Resist Instrumental Reason
39:39 Defining The Public Sphere & Its Role In Democracy
45:24 The New Structural Transformation
47:18 Platforms, Algorithms, & the Crisis of Public Communication
49:00 True Public Intellectuals vs Gurus
53:32 How To Choose Better Voices In Your Own Media Diet