Content and Conversation: Organic Growth Insights from Siege Media

Ross Hudgens sits down with Rand Fishkin, founder of SparkToro and co-author (with Amanda Natividad) of the book Zero Click Marketing, for a frank conversation about why most of the ways marketers measure their work are broken, and what to do instead.

Rand explains why he soured on “How did you hear about us?” surveys, including the experiment where 30% of a brand’s customers credited a well-known food personality who had never mentioned it. He makes the case that incrementality testing and correlation modeling are the real path to measuring AI’s impact, and walks through the unanswered questions undermining AI visibility tracking, from guessed-at prompt volume to too few prompt runs and invisible personalization.

Show Notes:

0:00 – Why self-attribution fails

2:26 – The fake influencer experiment

6:58 – Incrementality testing for AI

11:55 – Correlation modeling with AI

16:03 – The prompt volume problem

18:44 – Prompt runs and personalization

24:31 – Why ChatGPT should sell prompt data

27:52 – Why the UK clicks least

31:14 – Dark traffic and walled gardens

38:24 – Are nonfiction books still worth it?

41:47 – Product problem, not marketing problem

44:07 – AI for customer research

47:43 – The book’s two big takeaways

49:06 – Turn off your ads

Show Links:

• Grab Zero Click Marketing
• Rand on LinkedIn
• SparkToro
• Preorder "Generative Engine Optimization: The Definitive Guide to AI SEO" by Ross Hudgenshttps://www.youtube.com/redirect?event=video_description&redir_token=QUlxb01IWjdmbHI3cm9EMmJzak1mSmcyandtYXxBSTVJdTV2R0p2T3dkSlc1REVtNUhQbXVLeFlKdkNCbUlEZWVfNXUzcm1LNlhxUkNNenBxSFpVZzAwWml3VElnczVVZzRVQ0JIT0pfdHRIY25fb3Q1cGoyZlltYVl2eVVVakRk&q=https%3A%2F%2Fa.co%2Fd%2F0a4oRiI5&v=0hoEO4UqC8E
• Chuck Klosterman interview on the Plain English podcast
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Ross Hudgens welcomes Andy Crestodina, Co-Founder and CMO of Orbit Media, to unpack the most alarming finding from 13 years of Orbit’s annual content marketing survey: after a decade of 20–28% of marketers reporting strong results, that number crashed to just 14% in 2026.

Andy explains why AI use shows zero correlation with performance, why the strategies that have always driven results (original research, influencer collaboration, human editors, keyword research, highly visual content) are being abandoned, and why he’s never once tracked word count despite averaging 2,400 words and 10–12 hours per article.

They also get into why great content should look like a social stream, why you shouldn’t fear quoting competitors, and how Goodhart’s Law explains the long-article era.

Show Notes:

0:00 – Content performance crashed to 14%

1:52 – AI is table stakes, not an edge

2:58 – What still works (and fewer people do)

5:34 – Back to the human basics

6:48 – Make content look like a social stream

8:16 – Should you quote competitors?

10:48 – Article length & Goodhart’s Law

14:50 – Why search and conversion must combine

16:19 – Pages that emulate a sales call

21:15 – Cognitive biases & loss aversion

23:15 – Winning the AI recommendation

28:01 – Home pages get 15x more AI bot visits

29:52 – Put proof points in text

33:12 – The future of the website

37:16 – Predictions for next year’s study

Show Links:

• Andy on LinkedIn
• Orbit Media
• Preorder "Generative Engine Optimization: The Definitive Guide to AI SEO" by Ross Hudgens
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Subscribe today for weekly tips: https://bit.ly/3dBM61f Listen on iTunes: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/content-and-conversation-seo-tips-from-siege-media/id1289467174 Listen on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/1kiaFGXO5UcT2qXVRuXjsM Listen on Google: https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy5zaW1wbGVjYXN0LmNvbS9jT3NjUkdLeA Follow Siege on Twitter: http://twitter.com/siegemedia Follow Ross on Twitter: http://twitter.com/rosshudgens Directed by Cara Brown: https://twitter.com/cararbrown Email Ross: ross@siegemedia.com #seo | #contentmarketing

Ross Hudgens sits down with Eric Wu, who leads SEO, GEO, and CRO at Ramp, to unpack one of the most experiment-driven search programs in B2B.

Eric walks through the test that proved a simple markdown file could change ChatGPT's answers, a $162 "AI-exclusive" demo offer that real prospects asked sales about by name, and why Ramp leaves experiments live for months to track how answer engines shift over time.

Show Notes

0:00 – The markdown experiment: changing ChatGPT's answer with a $162 offer
3:05 – Marketing to agents without hurting the user experience
4:37 – Personalized AI content at scale
8:24 – Schema tests and why answer engines look like early-2000s search
10:17 – Long-running experiments and getting flagged as manipulation
12:47 – Prioritizing experiments vs. business outcomes
14:42 – Dark search: why AI traffic shows up as direct
17:37 – How Ramp found 30–40% of direct traffic is answer engine traffic
22:00 – Why Google won't share AI Mode clicks
24:15 – The Search Console vs. GA4 flip after October 2025
25:29 – Why Ramp ranks for the word "yes"
28:29 – Ramp's Reddit experiments
34:49 – Repurposing blog content on Reddit
38:55 – Vendor comparison pages built for procurement
42:40 – LLM visibility tracking: vanity metrics vs. what correlates with sales
45:15 – Using "How did you hear about us?" to attribute dark traffic

Show Links

• Ramp Rate
• Ramp Platform on Reddit
• Preorder "Generative Engine Optimization: The Definitive Guide to AI SEO" by Ross Hudgens
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Siege Media CEO Ross Hudgens flies solo for a case study episode on Zapier, one of the most cited domains in LLMs and a name almost anyone in B2B or SaaS will recognize from their own citation reports.

Drawing from a longer chapter in his upcoming book on GEO with Wiley, Ross breaks down why Zapier shows up in roughly 80% of the bottom-funnel prompts it cares about, and why it ranks fifth among cited domains in B2B, behind only G2, Facebook, YouTube, and Reddit.

Ross walks through the pieces behind that visibility: an integration library that lets Zapier write about thousands of tools without competing with them, a deep bench of editorially rigorous "best of" and "versus" articles, digital PR built on survey-driven data studies, and an actively curated Reddit community. He also takes on the big objection, whether citations actually drive business, with Zapier's own numbers: 40% of visitors now find them through LLMs, and 25% of signups are attributed to AI.

Get the book to read more about Zapier: https://www.siegemedia.com/geo-book

Show Notes
0:00 Why Zapier as a case study
0:36 Zapier's bottom-funnel AI visibility
1:05 Top 20 most cited domains, 5th in B2B
2:02 The integration library advantage
2:56 Best-of listicles and versus articles
4:42 Why versus content drives LLM visibility
5:32 Premium design and editorial standards
6:58 Digital PR and data studies
7:28 Building a Reddit community
9:10 Do citations actually drive pipeline?
10:48 The book and final thoughts

Show Links

Preorder "Generative Engine Optimization: The Definitive Guide to AI SEO" by Ross Hudgens: https://a.co/d/0a4oRiI5

Subscribe for weekly episodes: https://bit.ly/3dBM61f

Listen on Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/content-and-conversation-seo-tips-from-siege-media/id1289467174

Listen on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/1kiaFGXO5UcT2qXVRuXjsM

Follow Ross on X: https://twitter.com/rosshudgens

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Email Ross: ross@siegemedia.com

Subscribe today for weekly tips: https://bit.ly/3dBM61f Listen on iTunes: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/content-and-conversation-seo-tips-from-siege-media/id1289467174 Listen on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/1kiaFGXO5UcT2qXVRuXjsM Listen on Google: https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy5zaW1wbGVjYXN0LmNvbS9jT3NjUkdLeA Follow Siege on Twitter: http://twitter.com/siegemedia Follow Ross on Twitter: http://twitter.com/rosshudgens Directed by Cara Brown: https://twitter.com/cararbrown Email Ross: ross@siegemedia.com #seo | #contentmarketing

Ross Hudgens sits down with Marat Gaziev, VP of SEO & GEO at IGN, for a wide-ranging conversation about what happens to publishing when the 20-year bargain between search engines and content creators (free content in exchange for traffic) quietly falls apart.

Marat breaks down Ziff Davis's lawsuit against OpenAI in plain terms: the copyright and trademark-dilution claims, how their properties ended up in the WebText training set, and why the judge dismissed the robots.txt argument with a memorable "lock on the back door while the front door is open" analogy.

From there they get into the emerging economics of licensing (RSL, Microsoft's Publisher Content Marketplace, and whether AI companies can even afford to pay publishers), the shift from driving clicks to driving citations and mentions, and why sponsored content and authentic, authoritative voices may matter more than ever.

Show Notes

00:00 – Inside Ziff Davis and IGN
03:10 – Why Ziff Davis sued OpenAI
10:16 – RSL and content marketplaces
20:18 – Monetizing in a post-click world
26:41 – Are LLMs too naive
33:45 – 20 years of SEO history
38:34 – Using vector embeddings to match intent
45:03 – Rewriting search and SEO
51:12 – Personalization in the AI era

Show Links

• Marat at LinkedIn
• Marat on X
• Preorder "Generative Engine Optimization: The Definitive Guide to AI SEO" by Ross Hudgens
• Subscribe for weekly episodes
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Subscribe today for weekly tips: https://bit.ly/3dBM61f Listen on iTunes: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/content-and-conversation-seo-tips-from-siege-media/id1289467174 Listen on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/1kiaFGXO5UcT2qXVRuXjsM Listen on Google: https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy5zaW1wbGVjYXN0LmNvbS9jT3NjUkdLeA Follow Siege on Twitter: http://twitter.com/siegemedia Follow Ross on Twitter: http://twitter.com/rosshudgens Directed by Cara Brown: https://twitter.com/cararbrown Email Ross: ross@siegemedia.com #seo | #contentmarketing

Ross Hudgens welcomes Jason Cohen, founder of WP Engine and Smart Bear, to unpack the "multipliers" behind outsized marketing results. They get into how WP Engine grew affiliates into a channel competitors couldn't touch, why most A/B testing quietly produces nothing, and Jason's core argument that the quality of traffic at the top of your funnel matters more than everything below it combined. Along the way: exclusivity deals, multi-brand strategy, defining a truly actionable ideal customer, and why showing your product's bad reviews can actually lift sales.

Show Notes

00:00 Intro
00:57 The affiliate power curve
03:00 The "magic wand" test
10:19 Affiliates, brand value & AI search
15:12 Defining your ideal customer
22:42 Why your A/B test wins disappear (false positives)
28:27 Why A/B testing fails for SEO
33:49 Traffic quality beats everything else in the funnel
39:04 How to actually get higher-quality traffic
52:22 Why showing bad reviews boosts sales

Show Links

• Jason on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jasoncohen/ WP Engine: https://wpengine.com/
• Jason's Book "Hidden Multipliers: Jumpstart Growth With Your Existing Budget and Team"
• A Smart Bear: https://longform.asmartbear.com/jason-cohen/
• Preorder "Generative Engine Optimization: The Definitive Guide to AI SEO" by Ross Hudgens: https://a.co/d/0e5jdspP
• Subscribe for weekly episodes: https://bit.ly/3dBM61f
• Listen on Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast...
• Listen on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/1kiaFGX...
• Follow Ross on X: https://x.com/rosshudgens
• Follow Siege Media on X: https://x.com/siegemedia

Subscribe today for weekly tips: https://bit.ly/3dBM61f Listen on iTunes: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/content-and-conversation-seo-tips-from-siege-media/id1289467174 Listen on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/1kiaFGXO5UcT2qXVRuXjsM Listen on Google: https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy5zaW1wbGVjYXN0LmNvbS9jT3NjUkdLeA Follow Siege on Twitter: http://twitter.com/siegemedia Follow Ross on Twitter: http://twitter.com/rosshudgens Directed by Cara Brown: https://twitter.com/cararbrown Email Ross: ross@siegemedia.com #seo | #contentmarketing

Josh Blyskal, Special Projects at Profound, returns to the show for a data-rich, in-person conversation with Ross Hudgens about what's actually true in AI search right now, and what's just noise.

Josh makes the case that the industry's obsession with tracking frequency is mostly a distraction (running a prompt 10x a day vs. once barely moves your visibility score) and that the real hard problem is still attribution. He walks through a new model some advanced teams are using, treating agent attention as a proxy for human attention and heavily discounting citations into "clicks,” and shares why ChatGPT referral traffic is up 60% since mid-March, especially for CPG.

From there they get into why GEO is fundamentally a relationship business (the Reddit–Google negotiations, why Claude cites Reddit almost never, and the walled-garden problem), what actually separates slop from signal, and why listicles still do the "caloric work" of teaching a model an industry.

Show Notes

0:00 How often should you track Prompts?
08:14 The new attribution model
14:05 GEO as a relationship business
20:05 What separates slop from signal
26:43 Product pages, versus queries and battle cards
30:21 ChatGPT vs. Claude
34:12 Future-proofing your stack
40:55 Video, social and the language arbitrage
49:18 Imitation vs. creation & where GEO is headed

Show Links

• Josh’s website
• Josh on LinkedIn
• Preorder "Generative Engine Optimization: The Definitive Guide to AI SEO" by Ross Hudgens
• Subscribe for weekly episodes
• Listen on Apple
• Listen on Spotify
• Follow Ross on X
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• Email Ross

Subscribe today for weekly tips: https://bit.ly/3dBM61f Listen on iTunes: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/content-and-conversation-seo-tips-from-siege-media/id1289467174 Listen on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/1kiaFGXO5UcT2qXVRuXjsM Listen on Google: https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy5zaW1wbGVjYXN0LmNvbS9jT3NjUkdLeA Follow Siege on Twitter: http://twitter.com/siegemedia Follow Ross on Twitter: http://twitter.com/rosshudgens Directed by Cara Brown: https://twitter.com/cararbrown Email Ross: ross@siegemedia.com #seo | #contentmarketing

Ross Hudgens sits down with JH Scherck, founder of Growth Plays, for a refreshingly contrarian take on AI content. JH argues that with the right context and execution, AI already gets you 85–90% of the way to a strong B2B article, and that the real skill in 2026 is being the person who can take a B+ draft to an A+.

Along the way he flips the industry's favorite critique on its head: was SEO content *ever* good? He makes the case that the bar was always low, and that it took removing humans from the equation for anyone to start caring about sentence construction and quality at all.

Ross and JH also dig into where AI content genuinely works (dev tools, technical docs, location pages) versus where it falls flat, the telltale "it's 3 a.m. and your microservices are failing" intro pattern, why plugging more data sources into your workflow isn't differentiation, whether people will stop browsing websites and just chat with them, the perils nobody's discussing, how your product's history follows you around in LLMs, and why AI turns C players into more prolific C players rather than A players.

Show Notes

0:00 Getting 85% There: Where AI Already Beats Most Writers

4:45 The AI Doer vs. the AI Reviewer

8:48 "Was SEO Content Ever Good?" Rethinking the Slop Debate

12:24 What Actually Differentiates Content Now

16:13 Will People Stop Browsing and Just Chat With Your Site?

21:45 The Perilous Side of AI Content Nobody's Discussing

33:07 Maintenance Mode & Why Your History Follows You in LLMs

39:29 Educating Executives & Avoiding the "Slop Cannon"

48:12 Traffic Recovery, Brand Problems & Qualifying Clients Out

53:34 The Truth About ChatGPT Leads & Aggregate Citation Data

Show Links

• Visit Growth Plays
• Follow JH on LinkedIn
• Preorder "Generative Engine Optimization: The Definitive Guide to AI SEO" by Ross Hudgens
• Subscribe for weekly episodes
• Listen on Apple
• Listen on Spotify
• Follow Ross on X
• Follow Siege Media on X
• Email Ross

Subscribe today for weekly tips: https://bit.ly/3dBM61f Listen on iTunes: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/content-and-conversation-seo-tips-from-siege-media/id1289467174 Listen on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/1kiaFGXO5UcT2qXVRuXjsM Listen on Google: https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy5zaW1wbGVjYXN0LmNvbS9jT3NjUkdLeA Follow Siege on Twitter: http://twitter.com/siegemedia Follow Ross on Twitter: http://twitter.com/rosshudgens Directed by Cara Brown: https://twitter.com/cararbrown Email Ross: ross@siegemedia.com #seo | #contentmarketing

Ross Hudgens sits down with Aja Frost, Sr. Director of Global Growth & Paid at HubSpot, to open up the playbook behind one of the most advanced GEO/AEO programs in SaaS.

Aja shares how HubSpot has been investing in answer engine optimization since early 2023 and how the company turned a very public blog traffic decline into a "Phoenix from the ashes" story, becoming the single most visible CRM in LLMs.

They get tactical on writing for the bot (her "B2B2C" framing and "tofu with a twist" content strategy), why visibility beats citation share as a KPI, how HubSpot tracks prompts down to the feature level, and why audience size barely predicts who gets cited.

Aja also breaks down HubSpot's creator and affiliate strategy, the durable (and not-so-durable) ways to earn off-site mentions, a deep dive on doing Reddit authentically, and how she reorganized her 65-person team around products instead of web properties.

Show Notes

0:00 – HubSpot's GEO playbook

2:21 – Why AI evaluation predicts purchase intent

03:48 – Becoming the top CRM in LLMs

06:31 – Writing for the bots

11:07 – How HubSpot tracks its prompts

18:16 – Audience size doesn't predict citations

25:15 – Affiliates and valuing a citation

37:30 – The Reddit deep dive

49:27 – Inside HubSpot's reorg

Show Links

Aja on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ajafrost/

Aja’s website: https://ajafrost.com/

Aja on The HubSpot Marketing blog: https://blog.hubspot.com/marketing/author/aja-frost

AEO Sensor: https://www.hubspot.com/aeo-sensor

Subscribe today for weekly tips: https://bit.ly/3dBM61f Listen on iTunes: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/content-and-conversation-seo-tips-from-siege-media/id1289467174 Listen on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/1kiaFGXO5UcT2qXVRuXjsM Listen on Google: https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy5zaW1wbGVjYXN0LmNvbS9jT3NjUkdLeA Follow Siege on Twitter: http://twitter.com/siegemedia Follow Ross on Twitter: http://twitter.com/rosshudgens Directed by Cara Brown: https://twitter.com/cararbrown Email Ross: ross@siegemedia.com #seo | #contentmarketing

Ross Hudgens sits down with Tom Critchlow, founder of AI Search Leaders (the evolution of his SEO MBA community), for a candid conversation about what GEO actually is in 2026 and why nobody has fully cracked it yet.

Tom makes the case that AI search measurement looks far more like brand measurement than classic SEO: less about prompt monitoring and keyword ranking, more about share of model, awareness, and how LLMs describe you (not just whether they cite you).

Along the way they dig into the "yes" stance SEOs need to take with executives, why brand, PR, and product teams, not SEO teams, tend to own the outcomes that move GEO, the real career risk facing SEOs, technical SEO in the age of model distillation, NavBoost and clicks as a trust signal, and the personalized, push-not-pull future of search.

Show Notes

0:00 – Why SEOs can't afford to be defensive

2:35 – How do you measure GEO?

6:24 – Measuring GEO like a brand

15:04 – Who really owns GEO?

23:26 – Technical SEO in the AI age

30:36 – Stop chasing tactics

37:09 – Selling GEO amid uncertainty

41:21 – NavBoost, clicks as trust

51:39 – Personalization, privacy and the future of search

Show Links

AI Search Leaders: https://www.searchleaders.ai/

Your Inbox Might be the Next AI Search Signal: https://ipullrank.com/google-personal-intelligence-experiment

Why Every AI Search Platform Is Now Agentic and What That Means for Your Content: https://ipullrank.com/agentic-rag

Subscribe for weekly episodes: https://bit.ly/3dBM61f

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Listen on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/1kiaFGXO5UcT2qXVRuXjsM

Follow Ross on X: https://twitter.com/rosshudgens

Follow Siege Media on X: https://twitter.com/siegemedia

Subscribe today for weekly tips: https://bit.ly/3dBM61f Listen on iTunes: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/content-and-conversation-seo-tips-from-siege-media/id1289467174 Listen on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/1kiaFGXO5UcT2qXVRuXjsM Listen on Google: https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy5zaW1wbGVjYXN0LmNvbS9jT3NjUkdLeA Follow Siege on Twitter: http://twitter.com/siegemedia Follow Ross on Twitter: http://twitter.com/rosshudgens Directed by Cara Brown: https://twitter.com/cararbrown Email Ross: ross@siegemedia.com #seo | #contentmarketing

Ross Hudgens sits down with Eli Schwartz, author of Product-Led SEO and former VP of SEO at SurveyMonkey, for a wide-ranging conversation on the real state of SEO in 2026.

They break down Google's new AI search guidance (spoiler: it's basically just SEO), why there's a massive mismatch between what companies want from SEO teams and what they're getting, and why Eli thinks the SEO career path is broken but the demand for real SEO has never been higher.

They also get into which industries are best positioned for the LLM era, why technical SEO is actually becoming more valuable, and why Eli thinks SEOs should start thinking of themselves as product managers.

Chapter Markers

00:00:10 – Google's new AI search guidance

00:07:26 – Manipulation isn’t a strategy

00:12:22 – The SEO career mismatch

00:17:50 – Why SEO teams can't show their value

00:25:26 – New entrants and dying conferences

00:36:17 – The skills SEOs need now

00:43:35 – Why the best SEOs build things

00:57:45 – Which industries win in the LLM era

Show Links

Google’s GEO advice: https://developers.google.com/search/docs/fundamentals/ai-optimization-guide

Eli on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/schwartze/

Subscribe for weekly episodes: https://bit.ly/3dBM61f

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Listen on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/1kiaFGXO5UcT2qXVRuXjsM

Follow Ross on X: https://twitter.com/rosshudgens

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Subscribe today for weekly tips: https://bit.ly/3dBM61f Listen on iTunes: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/content-and-conversation-seo-tips-from-siege-media/id1289467174 Listen on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/1kiaFGXO5UcT2qXVRuXjsM Listen on Google: https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy5zaW1wbGVjYXN0LmNvbS9jT3NjUkdLeA Follow Siege on Twitter: http://twitter.com/siegemedia Follow Ross on Twitter: http://twitter.com/rosshudgens Directed by Cara Brown: https://twitter.com/cararbrown Email Ross: ross@siegemedia.com #seo | #contentmarketing

Ross Hudgens welcomes Lily Ray, VP of SEO Strategy & Research at Amsive — this time in person — for a wide-ranging conversation on what's actually working (and what's getting patched) in AI search right now.

They dig into the rise and likely fall of self-promotional listicles and comparison pages, the new wave of GEO manipulation tactics already being flagged as spam by Google and Microsoft, and how to build visibility that's genuinely algorithm-proof.

Lily also shares how her team is using AI day-to-day, what the technical GEO checklist looks like in 2026, and why she's still betting on Google winning the AI search race long-term.

Show Notes:

00:00:11 – Lily's new consulting practice at Algorithmic

00:02:11 – The rise and fall of self-promotional listicles

00:08:11 – Comparison pages and alternative posts

00:12:38 – Authentic authority vs. paid influence

00:15:42 – GEO exploits Google & Microsoft flag as spam

00:27:23 – Using AI day-to-day

00:30:46 – The GEO technical checklist

00:36:27 – Predicting the Next 12 Months

Show Links:

Find Lily at Amsive: https://www.amsive.com/insights/author/lily-ray/

Follow Lily on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lily-ray-44755615/

Follow Lily on X: https://x.com/lilyraynyc

Lily’s Substack: https://lilyraynyc.substack.com/

Subscribe for weekly episodes: https://bit.ly/3dBM61f

Listen on Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/content-and-conversation-seo-tips-from-siege-media/id1289467174

Listen on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/1kiaFGXO5UcT2qXVRuXjsM

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Noah Greenberg, CEO of Stacker, joins Ross to break down how his platform distributes brand content as earned media across thousands of news publishers and why it's becoming a core part of modern SEO, digital PR, and GEO strategy.

They dig into the nuances of doing syndication the right way, from canonical tags and editorial standards to why Stacker's network of 3,000+ publishers makes it a fundamentally different play than old-school link building. Noah also explains how the rise of GEO is reshaping the value of syndication, as brands discover that republishing content across hundreds of news outlets dramatically increases the surface area for LLM citations.

Ross and Noah close out with a practical breakdown of what content actually performs on the newswire: proprietary data stories only your brand can tell, public data localized by geography, and well-timed "news you can use" tied to seasonal events. If you're a brand, agency, or SEO thinking about content distribution, this one is worth your full attention.

Show Notes:

0:00 What Is Stacker? Distribution, Earned Media & How It Works

01:20 How Stacker Solved the Chicken-and-Egg Problem with Publishers

08:23 Google's Syndication Warning & Why Stacker Plays It White Hat

13:11 The Real SEO & GEO Value of Content Syndication

17:04 Who Is Stacker Actually a Good Fit For? (B2B vs. B2C)

22:39 Local Content, Localization at Scale & Why It Outperforms

27:17 How Stacker Scales Across 3,000 Publishers Without Oversaturating

35:35 3 Types of Content That Consistently Win on the Newswire

Show Links:

Follow Noah on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/noahg/

Stacker: https://stacker.com/

Follow Ross on X: https://x.com/RossHudgens:

Subscribe today for weekly tips: https://bit.ly/3dBM61f Listen on iTunes: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/content-and-conversation-seo-tips-from-siege-media/id1289467174 Listen on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/1kiaFGXO5UcT2qXVRuXjsM Listen on Google: https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy5zaW1wbGVjYXN0LmNvbS9jT3NjUkdLeA Follow Siege on Twitter: http://twitter.com/siegemedia Follow Ross on Twitter: http://twitter.com/rosshudgens Directed by Cara Brown: https://twitter.com/cararbrown Email Ross: ross@siegemedia.com #seo | #contentmarketing

In this episode of Content and Conversation, Ross Hudgens sits down with Devin Bramhall to unpack what’s broken in modern B2B marketing and what actually works when metrics get messy and attribution falls apart.

They talk through Devin’s experience writing B2B Content Marketing Strategy, why “media-first” is now table stakes, and how community is often misunderstood, mis-scoped, or forced into the wrong formats. Devin shares real examples from her work at Help Scout and beyond, showing how strong communities are built by paying attention to people, not playbooks.

Show Notes:

00:00 – Intro/Marketing can’t be measured with numbers alone

05:30 – Writing a book when you already know the answer

10:20 – Media-first content marketing explained

15:00 – What community actually means (and what it doesn’t)

20:30 – Real-world community examples that worked

28:30 – Outcomes vs activities in marketing reporting

35:00 – Telling a story your CEO will understand

44:30 – When community is the wrong strategy

Show Links:

• B2B Content Marketing Strategy Book by Devin Bramhall
• Follow Ross on X:https://x.com/RossHudgens

Subscribe today for weekly tips: https://bit.ly/3dBM61f Listen on iTunes: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/content-and-conversation-seo-tips-from-siege-media/id1289467174 Listen on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/1kiaFGXO5UcT2qXVRuXjsM Listen on Google: https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy5zaW1wbGVjYXN0LmNvbS9jT3NjUkdLeA Follow Siege on Twitter: http://twitter.com/siegemedia Follow Ross on Twitter: http://twitter.com/rosshudgens Directed by Cara Brown: https://twitter.com/cararbrown Email Ross: ross@siegemedia.com #seo | #contentmarketing

Bernard Huang returns to break down GEO (Generative Engine Optimization) and the big question: is GEO actually different from SEO, or just SEO evolving?

We talk about how AI Mode/AI Overviews are changing search behavior, why top-funnel traffic is getting squeezed, and what “good SEO is good GEO” really means in practice.

Show Notes:

00:00 – Welcome back & why GEO is everywhere

03:05 – Is GEO actually different from SEO?

07:10 – How AI agents think vs keyword-based SEO

12:45 – The traffic apocalypse & AI Mode becoming default

18:00 – Mentions vs backlinks in an LLM world

24:30 – What people are getting wrong about GEO

30:45 – Measuring success: impressions, citations & brand search

42:55 – The “long, long tail” and the future of content strategy

Show Links:

Follow Bernard on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/bernardjhuang/

Visit Clearscope: https://www.clearscope.io/

Follow Ross on X: https://x.com/RossHudgens

Subscribe today for weekly tips: https://bit.ly/3dBM61f Listen on iTunes: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/content-and-conversation-seo-tips-from-siege-media/id1289467174 Listen on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/1kiaFGXO5UcT2qXVRuXjsM Listen on Google: https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy5zaW1wbGVjYXN0LmNvbS9jT3NjUkdLeA Follow Siege on Twitter: http://twitter.com/siegemedia Follow Ross on Twitter: http://twitter.com/rosshudgens Directed by Cara Brown: https://twitter.com/cararbrown Email Ross: ross@siegemedia.com #seo | #contentmarketing

Ross welcomes Gaetano DiNardi, growth advisor and B2B SaaS strategist, to unpack the brutal questions CEOs are suddenly firing at their SEO teams in the AI era: traffic is flat or down, attribution is messy, LLM dashboards look scary, and everyone wants to know if SEO is still “working.”

They dig into why traffic is no longer the primary health metric, how AI Overviews and LLMs are breaking the old “rank → CTR → traffic → leads → revenue” equation, and why CMOs should obsess less over sessions and more over demo requests, pipeline, deal size, and overall organic channel performance.

Gaetano shares how he’s reframing SEO for mid-market B2B SaaS: shifting from decaying top-of-funnel content to bottom-of-funnel “money pages,” optimizing for LLM citations and “money prompts,” and using concepts like “crash-the-party” comparison pages to win high-intent demand across both Google and AI platforms.

They also break down why LLM prompt tracking is the new rank tracking (with all the same pitfalls), how AI platform traffic actually converts compared to Google, what “dark funnel SEO” looks like in practice, and why Gaetano thinks classic TOFU SEO might effectively go to zero while brand, data studies, and opinionated thought leadership pick up the slack.

Show Notes

0:08 – Gaetano returns & why last year’s SEO playbook no longer works

1:17 – CEOs’ top question: “Traffic is down… is SEO still working?”

2:17 – Why B2B SaaS is feeling the decline hardest

3:16 – The old rank → CTR → traffic → revenue model is broken

5:46 – Top-of-funnel content is collapsing (and why TOFU is “dead-ish”)

6:13 – The shift to bottom-funnel: BOFU keywords, low volume, high intent

7:11 – Flat traffic + rising revenue: the new SEO success story

8:01 – What LLMs cite: comparisons, “best X” lists, crash-the-party pages

8:38 – Crash-the-party SEO explained in 15 seconds

13:21 – LLM prompt dashboards are misleading your executives

15:53 – Branded vs. non-branded LLM prompts: why you MUST separate them

18:06 – Build a tight list of “money prompts,” not 500 random ones

20:06 – Why AI platforms show higher conversion rates than Google

22:10 – Dark-funnel behavior: LLM → Google → homepage → convert 24:08 – Google leads have FAR larger deal sizes than AI leads

27:35 – SEO attribution is officially “cooked” in the AI era

29:27 – Traffic flat, pipeline up 3×: examples from real clients

31:25 – Use top-10 stability to prove AI Overviews stole your clicks

34:47 – Search is becoming BOFU-first — what that means

35:34 – LLM citations as the new leading indicator for SEO

39:00 – Exploding topics = more LLM citations due to low consensus

41:22 – Engagement validates information gain (why POV content wins)

47:20 – What happens to TOFU SEO? (Short answer: it shrinks massively) 48:49 – Why TOFU may survive only for authority, clustering, and links

Gaetano on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/officialg/

Tough Questions CEOs Are Asking About AI SEO: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1T_IQXUCXBQtFcLekVFwqv23y8ViuRFJKBIRtn4wcImQ/edit?usp=sharing

Does traffic from AI platforms convert “better” than Google search traffic?: https://marketingadvice.substack.com/p/869517ce-4629-429f-addd-518d9342cdff

CMOs are frantically asking “what’s our Reddit strategy?: https://marketingadvice.substack.com/p/cmos-are-frantically-asking-whats

LLM prompt tracking is the new rank tracking: https://www.linkedin.com/posts/officialg_llm-prompt-monitoring-is-quickly-becoming-activity-737 7069814458097664-KLyi/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=member_desktop&rcm=ACoAAAj OemoBsmGgXOOcFpcwGVG1B7IlDCvf8io

Subscribe today for weekly tips: https://bit.ly/3dBM61f Listen on iTunes: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/content-and-conversation-seo-tips-from-siege-media/id1289467174 Listen on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/1kiaFGXO5UcT2qXVRuXjsM Listen on Google: https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy5zaW1wbGVjYXN0LmNvbS9jT3NjUkdLeA Follow Siege on Twitter: http://twitter.com/siegemedia Follow Ross on Twitter: http://twitter.com/rosshudgens Directed by Cara Brown: https://twitter.com/cararbrown Email Ross: ross@siegemedia.com #seo | #contentmarketing

Ross sits down with Josh Spilker, Content Marketing & SEO Lead at AirOps, to unpack the rise of the content engineer — what it means, why it matters, and how it’s reshaping SEO and content operations.

They dive into Ryan Law’s critique, hybrid-AI workflows, org-chart ownership, automation opportunities, and why Josh believes AI doesn’t kill content — it rewires strategy.

Plus: the “context librarian” concept, content refresh automation, spotting slipping queries, using multiple models together, and avoiding low-quality AI traps.

Show Notes:

0:08 – What is a “content engineer” and why the role is emerging
1:17 – How content engineering evolved from early UX concepts
2:13 – Who fits best in this role: writers, SEOs, or automation pros?
3:39 – Ryan Law’s critique: “I wouldn’t hire a content engineer”
4:51 – Internal linking as a powerful semi-automated workflow
5:56 – From manual outlines to AI-assisted research and briefs
6:48 – Balancing AI workflows and human-led quality control
7:24 – Why “Director of Automation” might better describe the role
8:35 – Who should lead content automation inside organizations
9:15 – AI text generation vs. hybrid workflows: what’s really working
10:38 – The limits of pure AI content and why oversight matters
11:19 – How AirOps customers use hybrid models for scale
12:01 – Using multiple models (ChatGPT, Claude, Perplexity) together
13:02 – The “7% of AI pages” debate and Patrick Stox’s counter-data
14:19 – How editorial standards and compliance shape AI adoption
15:23 – “AI doesn’t kill content — it rewires strategy”
16:15 – Refresh workflows: detecting pages and queries that slip
17:18 – Where content engineers fit in the org chart today
18:16 – The rise of the “context librarian” for brand knowledge bases
19:19 – Combining brand governance with AI-driven workflows
20:21 – How automation can unify voice and style across teams
21:32 – Why AI helps close the creative gap faster, not replace writers
22:29 – Teaching non-engineers to think like product builders
23:19 – Breaking down creative processes into repeatable systems
24:07 – Turning everyday editorial routines into structured workflows
25:08 – Automating meeting summaries and reporting emails
26:12 – Using AI to surface key quotes and podcast clip highlights
27:17 – “Transformation content”: repurposing, summarizing, clipping
28:13 – AirOps’ content strategy: optimization, refresh, iteration
29:04 – Refresh workflows tied to GSC data and ranking drops
30:33 – Risks of shallow “freshness updates” and engagement metrics
31:47 – How informed SEOs make the best use of AirOps workflows
32:07 – Why fundamentals matter before scaling with AI tools
33:02 – Barry Bonds analogy: AI only helps pros with solid foundations
34:15 – Automating backlink outreach with contextual relevance
35:34 – Why personalization still wins over high-volume outreach
36:17 – The balance between automation and editorial craft
37:11 – Where to find Josh’s webinars, reports, and AirOps resources

Josh Spilker on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/joshspilker

AirOps: https://www.airops.com

AirOps Webinars: https://www.airops.com/categories/events

Ahrefs Post (Ryan Law): https://ahrefs.com/blog/i-wouldnt-hire-a-content-engineer

Patrick Stox Response: https://www.linkedin.com/posts/patrickstox_im-sure-youre-all-seeing-the-study-saying-activity-7385017156213788672-5srr
Subscribe today for weekly tips: https://bit.ly/3dBM61f Listen on
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#contentmarketing

Caroline Gilbert — Director of Content & Editorial at Angi — joins Ross Hudgens to explore how one of the largest home-services brands is using AI to scale, transform, and optimize content operations.

They discuss how Caroline’s team doubled Angi’s content library to 12,000+ articles, how AI helps maintain top-funnel visibility amid shifting search behaviors, and the nuanced balance between human expertise and generative automation.

Caroline breaks down the three pillars of Angi’s AI framework — generation, transformation, and operations — and how they’ve automated everything from brief creation to CMS ingestion while keeping a strong editorial voice.

Plus: lessons learned from early AI missteps, real examples of disclosure testing, and how AI is reshaping both content creation and search behavior itself.

Show Notes
0:08 – From cost guides to “everything home”: expanding Angi’s library
1:00 – Moving up-funnel: education, troubleshooting, light DIY, and when to hire
2:14 – Top-funnel ROI drops as AI overviews change search behavior
2:56 – Why Angi adopts gen-AI: maintain helpful content without heavy human lift
3:27 – Staying visible where intent is early but brand value matters
4:45 – Content becomes commodity: deciding where humans add unique value
5:55 – Evergreen “how-to” steps vs. human nuance (risks, gotchas, pro POV)
7:18 – How AI is used: full refreshes, component injections, data-driven sizing
9:01 – The real trade-off: human time vs. technology time
9:26 – Scale context: 5k → 12k pages (growth mostly human-led)
9:41 – Three pillars: generation, transformation, operations
10:38 – Ops wins: briefs, automated edits/QA, CMS ingestion, minutes → hours
12:21 – Designers focus on UX polish when ingestion is 98% done
12:58 – Where AI struggled: risky DIY (HVAC/roofing), brand POV, nuance
15:02 – Licensing content is messy (state/county rules): tighter human review
17:19 – Design: generate/transform/streamline + “vibe coding” prototypes
20:18 – Pilot first: small cohorts, guardrails, measure engagement/conversions
21:22 – Disclosure tests: placement/tone matter; users split ~50/50 on trust
25:53 – “Tools, time, or talent”: when to push pro hire messaging
27:39 – Differentiators: pro interviews + Angi’s original homeowner cost data
28:07 – AI helps editors analyze like analysts; humans shape the story
29:19 – Looking ahead: AI shifting search from answers to utilities/experiences

Show Links
Caroline Gilbert on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/caroline-gilbert-41463518/
Angi: https://www.angi.com/ Subscribe today for weekly tips: https://bit.ly/3dBM61f Listen on
iTunes:
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/content-and-conversation-seo-tips-from-siege-media/id1289467174
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Listen on Google:
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Follow Siege on Twitter: http://twitter.com/siegemedia Follow Ross on
Twitter: http://twitter.com/rosshudgens Directed by Cara Brown:
https://twitter.com/cararbrown Email Ross: ross@siegemedia.com #seo |
#contentmarketing

Matt Bowers — SEO and LLM consultant, formerly of Zapier and Zillow — joins Ross Hudgens for a deep dive into how AI is transforming programmatic SEO.

They explore what’s working and what’s not for large-scale, AI-assisted content strategies — from full-AI “use-case” pages to hybrid human workflows. Matt breaks down examples of successful AI programmatic sites, the pitfalls of duplicate content, and the emerging “information gain” paradigm shaping rankings post-2024.

They also discuss the limits of AI in UX-driven verticals, personalization opportunities, long-tail visibility in LLMs like ChatGPT, and how data-driven scaling can still give human SEOs a competitive edge.

Plus: the rise and fall of Greg.app, the future of personalization, Zillow’s “Project Boggle,” and practical tools like Builder.io, Strapi, and AirOps that power modern programmatic builds.

Show Notes
0:08 – Matt returns for round two: programmatic SEO meets AI
1:00 – Are “pure AI” sites actually winning? What’s working and what’s not
2:06 – Inside a million-visit-per-month AI programmatic play
3:15 – Structuring AI content around real use cases, not blog posts
4:22 – Why old GPT-3.5 copy can still rank — and the “don’t mess with success” mantra
5:03 – Dwell time as a differentiator: the “product as content” advantage
6:13 – How AI copy helps with indexing and duplicate-content differentiation
7:17 – Why Google probably isn’t detecting AI directly and what it does instead
8:11 – The “high-DR arbitrage” era of AI content — and why it’s fading
10:11 – Why most public AI case studies stay anonymous
11:16 – Case study: Greg.app — AI-generated plant care pages done right
12:03 – How prompt engineering + UX elevate AI content
13:13 – Prompting each paragraph individually vs. one giant prompt
15:21 – Two winning models: product-driven and UX-driven AI programmatic
16:15 – Why blog-style AI content still struggles and the “pizza” metaphor
20:05 – Greg.app’s traffic drop: lessons from a 75% decline
22:21 – AI’s scalability advantage — and its ROI trade-offs
25:24 – Zillow’s data advantage: proprietary enrichment and GIS precision
26:16 – When AI enables pages that “shouldn’t exist” by human economics
27:21 – Scaling what can’t be scaled: the real AI unlock
28:16 – Competing in local long-tail SERPs with AI vs. humans
28:31 – Traits of losing players: low information gain, weak differentiation
29:20 – Why “information gain” may be the new ranking factor
30:06 – Proprietary data as the ultimate SEO differentiator
31:00 – How real estate UX converged — and why speed and personalization win
33:00 – When non-AI programmatic still wins: data-only, high-usability pages
35:07 – Where AI doesn’t belong: when usability is more important than copy
35:37 – Personalization and the future of AI-driven recommendations
37:07 – The Perplexity vision: a world run by AI agents and voice search
39:06 – What AI agents mean for SEO and monetization
40:38 – Long-tail demand from LLMs and how Zapier used programmatic pages
42:29 – How LLMs discover your use cases and why it matters
43:20 – Using internal data to fuel new programmatic ideas Project Boggle
46:09 – Generating new landing pages from user search inputs
47:52 – Internal search data as a goldmine for programmatic expansion
48:30 – Tools of the trade: AirOps, Builder.io, Strapi, and hybrid stacks
49:43 – Why programmatic SEO still needs human PMs and engineers
50:08 – Where to find Matt online

Show Links
Matt Bowers on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mpbow/
Matt’s Website: https://mattb.rs/
Greg.app AI plant care example: https://greg.app/plant-care/monstera
Strapi CMS: https://strapi.io/
AirOps: https://www.airops.com/
Builder.io: https://www.builder.io/ Subscribe today for weekly tips: https://bit.ly/3dBM61f Listen on
iTunes:
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/content-and-conversation-seo-tips-from-siege-media/id1289467174
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Follow Siege on Twitter: http://twitter.com/siegemedia Follow Ross on
Twitter: http://twitter.com/rosshudgens Directed by Cara Brown:
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#contentmarketing

Nick LeRoy, Enterprise SEO Consultant and author of *SEO For Lunch*, joins Ross Hudgens to debate a hot topic in SEO right now — the rise of “Best X” listicles and the emergence of what Nick calls **LLM PBNs**.

They unpack the ethics, brand risk, and strategic value of publishing your own “best” lists to capture AI-era visibility and how tactics once considered gray hat are being re-examined in the age of ChatGPT and AI Overviews.

If you’ve ever wondered whether to publish your own “Best X” article (or what happens when you do), this episode dives deep into the data, the risk, and the real takeaways for modern SEO strategy.

**Plus:** brand perception vs. performance marketing, AI training data, the ethics of self-ranking, and why most “shortcuts” aren’t worth it in 2025.

Show Notes
0:08 – Why Nick wrote his post on LLM PBNs and “Best X” articles
1:00 – Defining the three types of listicles: self-hosted, third-party, and PBNs
3:23 – Why AI and search are blurring ethical lines for content manipulation
5:00 – The real risk: brand perception and user trust over rankings
8:01 – Do “Best X” articles actually drive qualified leads?
10:09 – Why these listicles still work tactically in B2B SEO
12:12 – How to do it right: objectivity, transparency, and editorial value
14:01 – The importance of segmenting by use case (“best for enterprise,” etc.)
16:15 – Outbound links, nofollow abuse, and why honesty still wins
17:36 – When to avoid listicles entirely (and why product quality matters most)
20:24 – LLM PBNs vs. traditional PBNs — and why they’re not worth it
23:22 – Affiliate influence and how AI learns from “best of” lists
25:33 – Why bad products can’t rank long term (no matter the tactics)
27:26 – Testing ethically: what Nick learned from black-hat experiments
30:48 – The SMB risk: how FOMO and “easy buttons” hurt small businesses
33:19 – Better investments for local brands than AI visibility schemes
35:20 – Why starting from scratch is tougher than ever in SEO
37:07 – The future of niche review sites like Zyppy and why they matter
38:30 – Final takeaway: research deeply and focus on long-term trust

Show Links
Nick LeRoy on LinkedIn: [https://www.linkedin.com/in/nickleroy/]
SEO For Lunch Newsletter: [https://www.seoforlunch.com/]
Nick’s post on LLM PBNs: [https://www.seoforlunch.com/p/llm-pbns]
Zyppy (by Cyrus Shepard): [https://zyppy.com/]
Siege Media Enterprise SEO Consulting: [https://www.siegemedia.com/strategy/enterprise-seo-consultants]
Siege Media Best Fintech Marketing Agencies: [https://www.siegemedia.com/strategy/best-fintech-marketing-agencies]
Mentimeter Kahoot Alternatives Example: [https://www.mentimeter.com/blog/education/kahoot-alternatives]
Subscribe today for weekly tips: https://bit.ly/3dBM61f Listen on
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Follow Siege on Twitter: http://twitter.com/siegemedia Follow Ross on
Twitter: http://twitter.com/rosshudgens Directed by Cara Brown:
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#contentmarketing