Damn Good Interior Designer

Thirty years in the design business will teach you a few things. Especially when you realize some of what you believed early on was dead wrong.

Cheryl sits down with renowned interior designer Tom Stringer to talk about the lessons learned from building a successful firm over three decades. Why talent alone isn't enough, when to loosen your grip on the business, and why some of the most talented designers are the hardest to work with. They also dig into the industry's obsession with personal brands, why the client should always come first, and some conventional business advice that deserves to be called out.

About Tom Stringer

Tom Stringer is the founder and president of Tom Stringer Design Partners, the Chicago-based multidisciplinary design firm he established in 1996. Celebrating three decades of design, the firm conceives and delivers personalized design solutions for private residences, hospitality projects, and luxury yachts worldwide. Stringer’s design approach is shaped largely by his lifelong passion for travel, collecting, and discovery. Filtering his experiences through the prism of design allows him to bridge styles and cultures, translating the colors, textures, forms, and craftsmanship he encounters into sophisticated and unexpected interiors.

Widely published and recognized throughout his career, Stringer was inducted into the Merchandise Mart Hall of Fame for Interior Design in 2015 and has received 25 American Society of Interior Designers Design Excellence Awards. He is the author of An Adventurous Life: Global Interiors by Tom Stringer, a visual chronicle of his travels, observations, and a selection of the firm’s distinctive residential projects.

Stringer holds a bachelor’s degree in design from the College of Architecture and Environmental Design at Arizona State University. He began his career with renowned designer Charles Pfister, designing products for Baker Furniture, Brown Jordan, and Casella Lighting, before serving as Design Director for Branca, Inc. and later founding Tom Stringer Design Partners in 1996.

Have a question--click here to ask us.

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RESOURCE LINKS:

Damn Good Workshops - Website

These workshops are 2–3 hour deep dives (some more than one day) built for creative entrepreneurs who want to lead with confidence, price with authority, and grow with intention. We created this workshop series with tracks that cover the challenges we know designers face: pricing, sales, client relationships, project management, marketing, and leadership.

Damn Good Designer - Damn Good Designer - Website

• The best multi-faceted business coaching for Interior designers—seriously. This is not some wham-bam glamathon; It is the real deal you have been looking for and what is missing from the business coaching marketplace today.

The Paradigm Quick Start - 3 Month Custom Coaching Program

The Paradigm Shift - 6 Month Custom Coaching Program

The Paradigm Intensive - 12 Month One on One Immersive Custom Business Coaching

Join our FREE Facebook Groups

• Small Business - Think Big - Facebook
• What They Didn't Teach You in Design School - Facebook Group
• Subscribeto our newsletter

ABOUT US:

Cheryl Clendenon is the host of The Damn Good Designer Podcast and an award-winning interior designer, writer, and business coach with 26 years of full-time industry experience. With a prior career in media and radio sales, she brings a rare blend of creative thinking and business acumen to the design world. Cheryl was named KBB Person of the Year in 2021, is a nationally published industry voice with a monthly column in Home Accents Today, and regularly speaks on pricing, scope, process, and profitability. Known for her fast pace, contrarian instincts, and practical insight, Cheryl helps established design firms build stronger businesses and define success on their own terms.

***Any use of this page and its content to develop or train artificial intelligence or to do computer analysis is prohibited.***

Some designers have vendors who will bend over backward to help them. Others can't seem to get anyone to return their calls. And there may be a very good reason for that!

Cheryl sits down with Jamie Young, founder of Jamie Young Company, to get the OTHER side of the designer-vendor relationship. In this episode they discuss damaged goods, shipping headaches, unrealistic expectations, and why Cheryl has a few things to say about designers who take their vendor complaints straight to social media.

Jamie shares what happens behind the scenes when designers place orders, what vendors wish designers understood, and why the way you handle problems can determine how willing a vendor is to go the extra mile for you.

Because the relationships you build with your vendors have a direct impact on your clients, your reputation, and your bottom line. Plus you don't want to miss Jamie's insights for their upcoming furniture launch and what she's learned about designing products with the trade in mind.

About Jamie Young:

Raised in Los Angeles by an artist and entrepreneur, Jamie was drawn to design aesthetics from a young age. A unique home and an out of the box perspective molded the person she is today. Growing up in the heart of the entertainment industry during the 70’s and 80’s Jamie was surrounded by a colorful cast of eccentric characters; professional writers, painters, athletes, actors, and creative business minded mentors—inspiration was around every corner.

After high school, she continued her studies at Parsons School of Design in New York City. She and her now husband, David Jeter, also an artist, attended San Francisco College of Art focusing on painting and sculpture with a deep knowledge of art history, met in 1992. Jamie’s superpower was the ability to understand design and fashion in the home space and bring to market an elegant and bohemian perspective unique to her upbringing. David’s deep knowledge of art and world history coupled with brilliant and fresh designs completed the package. Together, with a love of connecting to communities near and far, they founded Jamie Young Company in 1997 to fill a void in the world of home furnishing

For over 27 years, the husband-and-wife team of David Jeter and Jamie Young Jeter have worked together as the Jamie Young Co., using their love of art, architecture, and adventure to craft approachable, design- driven pieces. From coast to coast, and around the world, the duo is inspired by their global travels as well the comfortable and covetable designs from their home in Southern California. Jamie Young Co. brings casual elegance and quiet luxury to home design.

Have a question--click here to ask us.

Loved this episode? Click here to leave a 5⭐ review

RESOURCE LINKS:

Damn Good Workshops - Website

These workshops are 2–3 hour deep dives (some more than one day) built for creative entrepreneurs who want to lead with confidence, price with authority, and grow with intention. We created this workshop series with tracks that cover the challenges we know designers face: pricing, sales, client relationships, project management, marketing, and leadership.

Damn Good Designer - Damn Good Designer - Website

• The best multi-faceted business coaching for Interior designers—seriously. This is not some wham-bam glamathon; It is the real deal you have been looking for and what is missing from the business coaching marketplace today.

The Paradigm Quick Start - 3 Month Custom Coaching Program

The Paradigm Shift - 6 Month Custom Coaching Program

The Paradigm Intensive - 12 Month One on One Immersive Custom Business Coaching

Join our FREE Facebook Groups

• Small Business - Think Big - Facebook
• What They Didn't Teach You in Design School - Facebook Group
• Subscribeto our newsletter

ABOUT US:

Cheryl Clendenon is the host of The Damn Good Designer Podcast and an award-winning interior designer, writer, and business coach with 26 years of full-time industry experience. With a prior career in media and radio sales, she brings a rare blend of creative thinking and business acumen to the design world. Cheryl was named KBB Person of the Year in 2021, is a nationally published industry voice with a monthly column in Home Accents Today, and regularly speaks on pricing, scope, process, and profitability. Known for her fast pace, contrarian instincts, and practical insight, Cheryl helps established design firms build stronger businesses and define success on their own terms.

***Any use of this page and its content to develop or train artificial intelligence or to do computer analysis is prohibited.***

Burnout in a design business can have very little to do with the number of hours you work. Cheryl digs into what happens when every decision, client issue, contractor problem and team question eventually finds its way back to the owner. You can delegate tasks, hire employees and reduce your project load and still be the person carrying all of the judgment and responsibility.

In this episode, Cheryl looks at how designers make themselves indispensable without realizing it, why being needed can feel a lot like being successful, and what happens when you build a business that still requires you for everything.

Have a question--click here to ask us.

Loved this episode? Click here to leave a 5⭐ review

RESOURCE LINKS:

Damn Good Workshops - Website

View our upcoming workshops!

These workshops are 2–3 hour deep dives (some more than one day) built for creative entrepreneurs who want to lead with confidence, price with authority, and grow with intention. We created this workshop series with tracks that cover the challenges we know designers face: pricing, sales, client relationships, project management, marketing, and leadership.

Each workshop is designed to stand alone — so you can choose the topics that matter most right now — while still connecting to the bigger picture of building a profitable, sustainable design business.

Damn Good Designer - Damn Good Designer - Website

• The best multi-faceted business coaching for Interior designers—seriously. This is not some wham-bam glamathon; It is the real deal you have been looking for and what is missing from the business coaching marketplace today.

The Paradigm Quick Start - 3 Month Custom Coaching Program

The Paradigm Shift - 6 Month Custom Coaching Program

The Paradigm Intensive - 12 Month One on One Immersive Custom Business Coaching

Join our FREE Facebook Groups

• Small Business - Think Big - Facebook
• What They Didn't Teach You in Design School - Facebook Group
• Subscribeto our newsletter

ABOUT US:

Cheryl Clendenon is the host of The Damn Good Designer Podcast and an award-winning interior designer, writer, and business coach with 26 years of full-time industry experience. With a prior career in media and radio sales, she brings a rare blend of creative thinking and business acumen to the design world. Cheryl was named KBB Person of the Year in 2021, is a nationally published industry voice with a monthly column in Home Accents Today, and regularly speaks on pricing, scope, process, and profitability. Known for her fast pace, contrarian instincts, and practical insight, Cheryl helps established design firms build stronger businesses and define success on their own terms.

***Any use of this page and its content to develop or train artificial intelligence or to do computer analysis is prohibited.***

Your client already has a general contractor, so why do they need you?

Cheryl digs into one of the biggest misconceptions about a designer’s role in a renovation and why waiting until it’s time to choose finishes is already too late. From layouts and electrical plans to the hundreds of decisions that affect everything that comes next, the real value of a designer starts long before the pretty stuff. If you’re still selling your value through selections, it may be time to rethink what you’re actually selling.

Have a question--click here to ask us.

Loved this episode? Click here to leave a 5⭐ review

RESOURCE LINKS:

Damn Good Workshops - Website

View our upcoming workshops!

These workshops are 2–3 hour deep dives (some more than one day) built for creative entrepreneurs who want to lead with confidence, price with authority, and grow with intention. We created this workshop series with tracks that cover the challenges we know designers face: pricing, sales, client relationships, project management, marketing, and leadership.

Each workshop is designed to stand alone — so you can choose the topics that matter most right now — while still connecting to the bigger picture of building a profitable, sustainable design business.

Damn Good Designer - Damn Good Designer - Website

• The best multi-faceted business coaching for Interior designers—seriously. This is not some wham-bam glamathon; It is the real deal you have been looking for and what is missing from the business coaching marketplace today.

The Paradigm Quick Start - 3 Month Custom Coaching Program

The Paradigm Shift - 6 Month Custom Coaching Program

The Paradigm Intensive - 12 Month One on One Immersive Custom Business Coaching

Join our FREE Facebook Groups

• Small Business - Think Big - Facebook
• What They Didn't Teach You in Design School - Facebook Group
• Subscribeto our newsletter

ABOUT US:

Cheryl Clendenon is the host of The Damn Good Designer Podcast and an award-winning interior designer, writer, and business coach with 26 years of full-time industry experience. With a prior career in media and radio sales, she brings a rare blend of creative thinking and business acumen to the design world. Cheryl was named KBB Person of the Year in 2021, is a nationally published industry voice with a monthly column in Home Accents Today, and regularly speaks on pricing, scope, process, and profitability. Known for her fast pace, contrarian instincts, and practical insight, Cheryl helps established design firms build stronger businesses and define success on their own terms.

***Any use of this page and its content to develop or train artificial intelligence or to do computer analysis is prohibited.***

Should your designers earn a commission, bonus, or a share of the profit?

In this Asked & Answered episode, Cheryl breaks down how to build an incentive plan that rewards the behavior you actually want inside your firm. She explains why bonuses should be based on profit instead of total sales, how participation should affect the percentage, and why a simple system helps team members think more like owners. Because revenue may look impressive, but profit is what stays in the bank.

Have a question--click here to ask us.

Loved this episode? Click here to leave a 5⭐ review

RESOURCE LINKS:

Damn Good Workshops - Website

View our upcoming workshops!

These workshops are 2–3 hour deep dives (some more than one day) built for creative entrepreneurs who want to lead with confidence, price with authority, and grow with intention. We created this workshop series with tracks that cover the challenges we know designers face: pricing, sales, client relationships, project management, marketing, and leadership.

Each workshop is designed to stand alone — so you can choose the topics that matter most right now — while still connecting to the bigger picture of building a profitable, sustainable design business.

Damn Good Designer - Damn Good Designer - Website

• The best multi-faceted business coaching for Interior designers—seriously. This is not some wham-bam glamathon; It is the real deal you have been looking for and what is missing from the business coaching marketplace today.

The Paradigm Quick Start - 3 Month Custom Coaching Program

The Paradigm Shift - 6 Month Custom Coaching Program

The Paradigm Intensive - 12 Month One on One Immersive Custom Business Coaching

Join our FREE Facebook Groups

• Small Business - Think Big - Facebook
• What They Didn't Teach You in Design School - Facebook Group
• Subscribeto our newsletter

ABOUT US:

Cheryl Clendenon is the host of The Damn Good Designer Podcast and an award-winning interior designer, writer, and business coach with 26 years of full-time industry experience. With a prior career in media and radio sales, she brings a rare blend of creative thinking and business acumen to the design world. Cheryl was named KBB Person of the Year in 2021, is a nationally published industry voice with a monthly column in Home Accents Today, and regularly speaks on pricing, scope, process, and profitability. Known for her fast pace, contrarian instincts, and practical insight, Cheryl helps established design firms build stronger businesses and define success on their own terms.

***Any use of this page and its content to develop or train artificial intelligence or to do computer analysis is prohibited.***

Cheryl has spent 25 years building systems around the way her design firm actually works. So what happens when AI suddenly gives her the ability to build the software around those systems, too?

In this episode, Cheryl shares what happened when one irritating business problem turned into building her own app through “vibe coding,” what she’s learned along the way, and why knowing your processes matters more than knowing how to code. AI can help you build almost anything, but it will also happily automate a bad process.

Have a question--click here to ask us.

Loved this episode? Click here to leave a 5⭐ review

RESOURCE LINKS:

Damn Good Workshops - Website

View our upcoming workshops!

These workshops are 2–3 hour deep dives (some more than one day) built for creative entrepreneurs who want to lead with confidence, price with authority, and grow with intention. We created this workshop series with tracks that cover the challenges we know designers face: pricing, sales, client relationships, project management, marketing, and leadership.

Each workshop is designed to stand alone — so you can choose the topics that matter most right now — while still connecting to the bigger picture of building a profitable, sustainable design business.

Damn Good Designer - Damn Good Designer - Website

• The best multi-faceted business coaching for Interior designers—seriously. This is not some wham-bam glamathon; It is the real deal you have been looking for and what is missing from the business coaching marketplace today.

The Paradigm Quick Start - 3 Month Custom Coaching Program

The Paradigm Shift - 6 Month Custom Coaching Program

The Paradigm Intensive - 12 Month One on One Immersive Custom Business Coaching

Join our FREE Facebook Groups

• Small Business - Think Big - Facebook
• What They Didn't Teach You in Design School - Facebook Group
• Subscribeto our newsletter

ABOUT US:

Cheryl Clendenon is the host of The Damn Good Designer Podcast and an award-winning interior designer, writer, and business coach with 26 years of full-time industry experience. With a prior career in media and radio sales, she brings a rare blend of creative thinking and business acumen to the design world. Cheryl was named KBB Person of the Year in 2021, is a nationally published industry voice with a monthly column in Home Accents Today, and regularly speaks on pricing, scope, process, and profitability. Known for her fast pace, contrarian instincts, and practical insight, Cheryl helps established design firms build stronger businesses and define success on their own terms.

***Any use of this page and its content to develop or train artificial intelligence or to do computer analysis is prohibited.***

When clients ask questions or make requests that rub you the wrong way, it doesn’t always mean they’re trying to take advantage of you. Sometimes, they simply don’t understand what designers actually do. In this Designer Drama episode, Cheryl explains why designers need to get better at communicating their value instead of constantly protecting it and why your value can’t rest on gatekeeping sources.

Have a question--click here to ask us.

Loved this episode? Click here to leave a 5⭐ review

RESOURCE LINKS:

Damn Good Workshops - Website

View our upcoming workshops!

These workshops are 2–3 hour deep dives (some more than one day) built for creative entrepreneurs who want to lead with confidence, price with authority, and grow with intention. We created this workshop series with tracks that cover the challenges we know designers face: pricing, sales, client relationships, project management, marketing, and leadership.

Each workshop is designed to stand alone — so you can choose the topics that matter most right now — while still connecting to the bigger picture of building a profitable, sustainable design business.

Damn Good Designer - Damn Good Designer - Website

• The best multi-faceted business coaching for Interior designers—seriously. This is not some wham-bam glamathon; It is the real deal you have been looking for and what is missing from the business coaching marketplace today.

The Paradigm Quick Start - 3 Month Custom Coaching Program

The Paradigm Shift - 6 Month Custom Coaching Program

The Paradigm Intensive - 12 Month One on One Immersive Custom Business Coaching

Join our FREE Facebook Groups

• Small Business - Think Big - Facebook
• What They Didn't Teach You in Design School - Facebook Group
• Subscribeto our newsletter

ABOUT US:

Cheryl Clendenon is the host of The Damn Good Designer Podcast and an award-winning interior designer, writer, and business coach with 26 years of full-time industry experience. With a prior career in media and radio sales, she brings a rare blend of creative thinking and business acumen to the design world. Cheryl was named KBB Person of the Year in 2021, is a nationally published industry voice with a monthly column in Home Accents Today, and regularly speaks on pricing, scope, process, and profitability. Known for her fast pace, contrarian instincts, and practical insight, Cheryl helps established design firms build stronger businesses and define success on their own terms.

***Any use of this page and its content to develop or train artificial intelligence or to do computer analysis is prohibited.***

Little did we know our Pricing and Salary Survey results were going to give us great nuggets of information that we could share for many future podcasts to come! One of the biggest challenges we found designers face is defining their product. Too often, “full-service design” means something different to every designer—and that inconsistency makes it nearly impossible to set confident fees, manage scope, or show clients the real value of design work. The secret lies in creating clear deliverables with a written scope of work, and structured meeting agendas that are always advancing the project. If you are not keeping track of your time--as many do not--this reveals where designers tend to undervalue themselves. You must trust in the value of your own work--define it, control it, manage expectations, and most importantly, position yourself as the expert in the room.

Have a question--click here to ask us.

Loved this episode? Click here to leave a 5⭐ review

RESOURCE LINKS:

Damn Good Workshops - Website

View our upcoming workshops!

These workshops are 2–3 hour deep dives (some more than one day) built for creative entrepreneurs who want to lead with confidence, price with authority, and grow with intention. We created this workshop series with tracks that cover the challenges we know designers face: pricing, sales, client relationships, project management, marketing, and leadership.

Each workshop is designed to stand alone — so you can choose the topics that matter most right now — while still connecting to the bigger picture of building a profitable, sustainable design business.

Damn Good Designer - Damn Good Designer - Website

• The best multi-faceted business coaching for Interior designers—seriously. This is not some wham-bam glamathon; It is the real deal you have been looking for and what is missing from the business coaching marketplace today.

The Paradigm Quick Start - 3 Month Custom Coaching Program

The Paradigm Shift - 6 Month Custom Coaching Program

The Paradigm Intensive - 12 Month One on One Immersive Custom Business Coaching

Join our FREE Facebook Groups

• Small Business - Think Big - Facebook
• What They Didn't Teach You in Design School - Facebook Group
• Subscribeto our newsletter

ABOUT US:

Cheryl Clendenon is the host of The Damn Good Designer Podcast and an award-winning interior designer, writer, and business coach with 26 years of full-time industry experience. With a prior career in media and radio sales, she brings a rare blend of creative thinking and business acumen to the design world. Cheryl was named KBB Person of the Year in 2021, is a nationally published industry voice with a monthly column in Home Accents Today, and regularly speaks on pricing, scope, process, and profitability. Known for her fast pace, contrarian instincts, and practical insight, Cheryl helps established design firms build stronger businesses and define success on their own terms.

***Any use of this page and its content to develop or train artificial intelligence or to do computer analysis is prohibited.***

One of our top episodes of Season 3!

The confusion you accidentally create long before the proposal ever hits your clients inbox is the real reason clients hesitate. Your price is not the problem. You can unintentionally create confusion through discovery calls, the way you talk about freight, receiving, vendors, timelines, your value, etc. This causes your clients to be constantly collecting clues about whether saying yes to you feels SAFE or SCARY. Learn how your language, tone, and timing shape the emotional architecture your clients make decisions in, and why being clear is your most powerful sales tool.

Have a question--click here to ask us.

Loved this episode? Click here to leave a 5⭐ review

RESOURCE LINKS:

Damn Good Workshops - Website

View our upcoming workshops!

These workshops are 2–3 hour deep dives (some more than one day) built for creative entrepreneurs who want to lead with confidence, price with authority, and grow with intention. We created this workshop series with tracks that cover the challenges we know designers face: pricing, sales, client relationships, project management, marketing, and leadership.

Each workshop is designed to stand alone — so you can choose the topics that matter most right now — while still connecting to the bigger picture of building a profitable, sustainable design business.

Damn Good Designer - Damn Good Designer - Website

• The best multi-faceted business coaching for Interior designers—seriously. This is not some wham-bam glamathon; It is the real deal you have been looking for and what is missing from the business coaching marketplace today.

The Paradigm Quick Start - 3 Month Custom Coaching Program

The Paradigm Shift - 6 Month Custom Coaching Program

The Paradigm Intensive - 12 Month One on One Immersive Custom Business Coaching

Join our FREE Facebook Groups

• Small Business - Think Big - Facebook
• What They Didn't Teach You in Design School - Facebook Group
• Subscribeto our newsletter

ABOUT US:

Cheryl Clendenon is the host of The Damn Good Designer Podcast and an award-winning interior designer, writer, and business coach with 26 years of full-time industry experience. With a prior career in media and radio sales, she brings a rare blend of creative thinking and business acumen to the design world. Cheryl was named KBB Person of the Year in 2021, is a nationally published industry voice with a monthly column in Home Accents Today, and regularly speaks on pricing, scope, process, and profitability. Known for her fast pace, contrarian instincts, and practical insight, Cheryl helps established design firms build stronger businesses and define success on their own terms.

***Any use of this page and its content to develop or train artificial intelligence or to do computer analysis is prohibited.***

Price is one of the first questions designers hear, but it is often the wrong conversation to lead with. Cheryl explains why posting big budget numbers and focusing on square-foot pricing can create the wrong expectations, intimidate potential clients, and reduce design to a transaction. Instead, she shares a better way to communicate value. By helping clients understand the thinking, process, and decisions behind the investment, they can then make informed choices with confidence.

Have a question--click here to ask us.

Loved this episode? Click here to leave a 5⭐ review

RESOURCE LINKS:

Damn Good Workshops - Website

View our upcoming workshops!

These workshops are 2–3 hour deep dives (some more than one day) built for creative entrepreneurs who want to lead with confidence, price with authority, and grow with intention. We created this workshop series with tracks that cover the challenges we know designers face: pricing, sales, client relationships, project management, marketing, and leadership.

Each workshop is designed to stand alone — so you can choose the topics that matter most right now — while still connecting to the bigger picture of building a profitable, sustainable design business.

Damn Good Designer - Damn Good Designer - Website

• The best multi-faceted business coaching for Interior designers—seriously. This is not some wham-bam glamathon; It is the real deal you have been looking for and what is missing from the business coaching marketplace today.

The Paradigm Quick Start - 3 Month Custom Coaching Program

The Paradigm Shift - 6 Month Custom Coaching Program

The Paradigm Intensive - 12 Month One on One Immersive Custom Business Coaching

Join our FREE Facebook Groups

• Small Business - Think Big - Facebook
• What They Didn't Teach You in Design School - Facebook Group
• Subscribeto our newsletter

ABOUT US:

Cheryl Clendenon is the host of The Damn Good Designer Podcast and an award-winning interior designer, writer, and business coach with 26 years of full-time industry experience. With a prior career in media and radio sales, she brings a rare blend of creative thinking and business acumen to the design world. Cheryl was named KBB Person of the Year in 2021, is a nationally published industry voice with a monthly column in Home Accents Today, and regularly speaks on pricing, scope, process, and profitability. Known for her fast pace, contrarian instincts, and practical insight, Cheryl helps established design firms build stronger businesses and define success on their own terms.

***Any use of this page and its content to develop or train artificial intelligence or to do computer analysis is prohibited.***

Retail is one of the most misunderstood business models in the design industry.

In this episode, Cheryl sits down with designer Ryan Williams of Artisan Design Studio to talk about the realities of adding retail to a design firm. From inventory investments and vendor relationships to client trust and showroom strategy, they discuss what retail actually costs, what it can do for your business, and why a storefront should support your design firm not distract from it.

They also share lessons learned, mistakes made, and what designers should consider before signing a lease. If you've ever thought about opening a shop, showroom, or design center, this episode will help you evaluate the decision through a practical business lens.

About Ryan Williams

Ryan Williams, principal designer and owner of Artisan Design Studio, has been practicing interior design for more than 20 years and has owned her business for over 15 of those years. Her approach to design goes far beyond creating beautiful spaces — Ryan is deeply committed to understanding her clients and their families to design homes that support their mental, physical, and emotional well-being. She prides herself on being both the expert in the room and a friend at the table.

Have a question--click here to ask us.

Loved this episode? Click here to leave a 5⭐ review

RESOURCE LINKS:

Damn Good Workshops - Website

View our upcoming workshops!

These workshops are 2–3 hour deep dives (some more than one day) built for creative entrepreneurs who want to lead with confidence, price with authority, and grow with intention. We created this workshop series with tracks that cover the challenges we know designers face: pricing, sales, client relationships, project management, marketing, and leadership.

Each workshop is designed to stand alone — so you can choose the topics that matter most right now — while still connecting to the bigger picture of building a profitable, sustainable design business.

Damn Good Designer - Damn Good Designer - Website

• The best multi-faceted business coaching for Interior designers—seriously. This is not some wham-bam glamathon; It is the real deal you have been looking for and what is missing from the business coaching marketplace today.

The Paradigm Quick Start - 3 Month Custom Coaching Program

The Paradigm Shift - 6 Month Custom Coaching Program

The Paradigm Intensive - 12 Month One on One Immersive Custom Business Coaching

Join our FREE Facebook Groups

• Small Business - Think Big - Facebook
• What They Didn't Teach You in Design School - Facebook Group
• Subscribeto our newsletter

ABOUT US:

Cheryl Clendenon is the host of The Damn Good Designer Podcast and an award-winning interior designer, writer, and business coach with 26 years of full-time industry experience. With a prior career in media and radio sales, she brings a rare blend of creative thinking and business acumen to the design world. Cheryl was named KBB Person of the Year in 2021, is a nationally published industry voice with a monthly column in Home Accents Today, and regularly speaks on pricing, scope, process, and profitability. Known for her fast pace, contrarian instincts, and practical insight, Cheryl helps established design firms build stronger businesses and define success on their own terms.

***Any use of this page and its content to develop or train artificial intelligence or to do computer analysis is prohibited.***

Visibility matters, but posting yourself in your bath robe is not the same thing as building authority and for designers this can backfire fast.

Because design is not an impulse buy. Clients are not hiring you for constant access to your every thought, errand, emotion, and car-confessional. They want you to lead expensive decisions, protect their investment, and bring a level of taste, judgment, and discernment they do not have on their own.

Cheryl makes the case for more thoughtful marketing that reinforces expertise instead of making designers look frantic, interchangeable, or too accessible to command premium fees.

Have a question--click here to ask us.

Loved this episode? Click here to leave a 5⭐ review

RESOURCE LINKS:

Damn Good Workshops - Website

View our upcoming workshops!

These workshops are 2–3 hour deep dives (some more than one day) built for creative entrepreneurs who want to lead with confidence, price with authority, and grow with intention. We created this workshop series with tracks that cover the challenges we know designers face: pricing, sales, client relationships, project management, marketing, and leadership.

Each workshop is designed to stand alone — so you can choose the topics that matter most right now — while still connecting to the bigger picture of building a profitable, sustainable design business.

Damn Good Designer - Damn Good Designer - Website

• The best multi-faceted business coaching for Interior designers—seriously. This is not some wham-bam glamathon; It is the real deal you have been looking for and what is missing from the business coaching marketplace today.

The Paradigm Quick Start - 3 Month Custom Coaching Program

The Paradigm Shift - 6 Month Custom Coaching Program

The Paradigm Intensive - 12 Month One on One Immersive Custom Business Coaching

Join our FREE Facebook Groups

• Small Business - Think Big - Facebook
• What They Didn't Teach You in Design School - Facebook Group
• Subscribeto our newsletter

ABOUT US:

Cheryl Clendenon is the host of The Damn Good Designer Podcast and an award-winning interior designer, writer, and business coach with 26 years of full-time industry experience. With a prior career in media and radio sales, she brings a rare blend of creative thinking and business acumen to the design world. Cheryl was named KBB Person of the Year in 2021, is a nationally published industry voice with a monthly column in Home Accents Today, and regularly speaks on pricing, scope, process, and profitability. Known for her fast pace, contrarian instincts, and practical insight, Cheryl helps established design firms build stronger businesses and define success on their own terms.

***Any use of this page and its content to develop or train artificial intelligence or to do computer analysis is prohibited.***

Cabinetry may be one of the biggest money opportunities hiding in plain sight for interior designers, but it is not for the faint of heart.

In this episode, Cheryl sits down with Brooke Eversoll of Bee Studios Design to talk about what really happens when a design firm decided to take the leap and look at cabinetry as a serious revenue stream, design responsibility, and business decision. Brooke brings over two decades of kitchen and bath experience, along with the kind of technical precision and creative point of view that proves cabinetry is not just boxes, doors, and pretty finishes. Cabinetry is in details, measurements, modifications, installers, problem-solving, and knowing what the heck you are doing before someone’s very expensive kitchen becomes your very expensive mistake.

In this episode, you will learn why cabinetry can become a major turning point for a design firm, what separates specifying cabinets from actually owning the cabinet design process, why manufactured lines can still offer true customization, what designers need to know before adding cabinetry sales to their business, and why the profit potential only works when you understand the risk, responsibility, and details that come with it.

There IS money to be made in cabinetry, but only if you are ready to own the work that comes with it.

About Brooke Eversoll:

Bee Studios, a hive for beautiful living.

Bee Studios was founded in 2015 and born from Brooke’s lifelong instinct for design. Brooke is deeply embedded in the Florida lifestyle and spent years spent sailing the Gulf as a young girl. Her passion and admiration for living in the sunshine state, along with her love of well-designed interiors, has been the foundation for Bee Studios. As a Certified Master Kitchen and Bath designer with over 2 decades of experience, the studio stands at a rare intersection of interiors, kitchens, and architecture, all imagined in one creative studio. Her approach brings wildly creative ideas merged with highly technical precision. She is quietly uncompromising in the pursuit of design that works beautifully and lives easily. Interiors that balance timeless and modern- a gentle balance of bringing new ideas while paying homage to what’s already there. She loves exploring new materials to personalize interiors for her clients. Because your home deserves to be wholly yours.

Have a question--click here to ask us.

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RESOURCE LINKS:

Damn Good Workshops - Website

View our upcoming workshops!

These workshops are 2–3 hour deep dives (some more than one day) built for creative entrepreneurs who want to lead with confidence, price with authority, and grow with intention. We created this workshop series with tracks that cover the challenges we know designers face: pricing, sales, client relationships, project management, marketing, and leadership.

Each workshop is designed to stand alone — so you can choose the topics that matter most right now — while still connecting to the bigger picture of building a profitable, sustainable design business.

Damn Good Designer - Damn Good Designer - Website

• The best multi-faceted business coaching for Interior designers—seriously. This is not some wham-bam glamathon; It is the real deal you have been looking for and what is missing from the business coaching marketplace today.

The Paradigm Quick Start - 3 Month Custom Coaching Program

The Paradigm Shift - 6 Month Custom Coaching Program

The Paradigm Intensive - 12 Month One on One Immersive Custom Business Coaching

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• What They Didn't Teach You in Design School - Facebook Group
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ABOUT US:

Cheryl Clendenon is the host of The Damn Good Designer Podcast and an award-winning interior designer, writer, and business coach with 26 years of full-time industry experience. With a prior career in media and radio sales, she brings a rare blend of creative thinking and business acumen to the design world. Cheryl was named KBB Person of the Year in 2021, is a nationally published industry voice with a monthly column in Home Accents Today, and regularly speaks on pricing, scope, process, and profitability. Known for her fast pace, contrarian instincts, and practical insight, Cheryl helps established design firms build stronger businesses and define success on their own terms.

***Any use of this page and its content to develop or train artificial intelligence or to do computer analysis is prohibited.***

Our Asked and Answered segments have done so well we also noticed a common theme scrolling through social media that needed its own segment - introducing 'Designer Drama: Is it the client or is it us?'! These episodes will take on topics that seem to be hot buttons for designers. Want to learn Cheryl's take? Listen in!

In this episode Cheryl takes on the growing trend of designers putting every client behavior, boundary, and communication issue into their contracts. She breaks down why legal protection and client leadership are not the same thing, and why a contract cannot fix poor onboarding, weak expectations, or a bad-fit client.

This episode is a sharp reminder that your contract should support your business, not become the way you manage every client relationship. Don't be afraid to look at what is really happening underneath the drama. Is the client actually the problem, or have you as the business owner failed to set the right expectations?

Have a question--click here to ask us.

Loved this episode? Click here to leave a 5⭐ review

RESOURCE LINKS:

Damn Good Workshops - Website

View our upcoming workshops!

These workshops are 2–3 hour deep dives (some more than one day) built for creative entrepreneurs who want to lead with confidence, price with authority, and grow with intention. We created this workshop series with tracks that cover the challenges we know designers face: pricing, sales, client relationships, project management, marketing, and leadership.

Each workshop is designed to stand alone — so you can choose the topics that matter most right now — while still connecting to the bigger picture of building a profitable, sustainable design business.

Damn Good Designer - Damn Good Designer - Website

• The best multi-faceted business coaching for Interior designers—seriously. This is not some wham-bam glamathon; It is the real deal you have been looking for and what is missing from the business coaching marketplace today.

The Paradigm Quick Start - 3 Month Custom Coaching Program

The Paradigm Shift - 6 Month Custom Coaching Program

The Paradigm Intensive - 12 Month One on One Immersive Custom Business Coaching

Join our FREE Facebook Groups

• Small Business - Think Big - Facebook
• What They Didn't Teach You in Design School - Facebook Group
• Subscribeto our newsletter

ABOUT US:

Cheryl Clendenon is the host of The Damn Good Designer Podcast and an award-winning interior designer, writer, and business coach with 26 years of full-time industry experience. With a prior career in media and radio sales, she brings a rare blend of creative thinking and business acumen to the design world. Cheryl was named KBB Person of the Year in 2021, is a nationally published industry voice with a monthly column in Home Accents Today, and regularly speaks on pricing, scope, process, and profitability. Known for her fast pace, contrarian instincts, and practical insight, Cheryl helps established design firms build stronger businesses and define success on their own terms.

***Any use of this page and its content to develop or train artificial intelligence or to do computer analysis is prohibited.***

AI can generate ideas in seconds. That’s not the threat.

In this episode, Cheryl gets straight to it—designers are no longer being hired for ideas but for their judgment. This means knowing what works, what doesn’t, and what’s going to cost the client later. Because in the world of AI clients don’t need help imagining anymore. Someone needs to help make the right decisions.

Designers need to lean in and not push back on AI or you will sound irrelevant. Ideas are everywhere. Judgment is not and you can own the decisions.

Have a question--click here to ask us.

Loved this episode? Click here to leave a 5⭐ review

RESOURCE LINKS:

Damn Good Workshops - Website

View our upcoming workshops!

These workshops are 2–3 hour deep dives (some more than one day) built for creative entrepreneurs who want to lead with confidence, price with authority, and grow with intention. We created this workshop series with tracks that cover the challenges we know designers face: pricing, sales, client relationships, project management, marketing, and leadership.

Each workshop is designed to stand alone — so you can choose the topics that matter most right now — while still connecting to the bigger picture of building a profitable, sustainable design business.

Damn Good Designer - Damn Good Designer - Website

• The best multi-faceted business coaching for Interior designers—seriously. This is not some wham-bam glamathon; It is the real deal you have been looking for and what is missing from the business coaching marketplace today.

The Paradigm Quick Start - 3 Month Custom Coaching Program

The Paradigm Shift - 6 Month Custom Coaching Program

The Paradigm Intensive - 12 Month One on One Immersive Custom Business Coaching

Join our FREE Facebook Groups

• Small Business - Think Big - Facebook
• What They Didn't Teach You in Design School - Facebook Group
• Subscribeto our newsletter

ABOUT US:

Cheryl Clendenon is the host of The Damn Good Designer Podcast and an award-winning interior designer, writer, and business coach with 26 years of full-time industry experience. With a prior career in media and radio sales, she brings a rare blend of creative thinking and business acumen to the design world. Cheryl was named KBB Person of the Year in 2021, is a nationally published industry voice with a monthly column in Home Accents Today, and regularly speaks on pricing, scope, process, and profitability. Known for her fast pace, contrarian instincts, and practical insight, Cheryl helps established design firms build stronger businesses and define success on their own terms.

***Any use of this page and its content to develop or train artificial intelligence or to do computer analysis is prohibited.***

Listen to our TOP episode of Season 3!

Kitchen and bath design must be treated — and priced — as the high-level specialty it is. These are not "just another room" — instead, they are some of the most complex, high-stakes, and profitable part of your business if you treat it that way. Too many designers undervalue their skills, we discuss how flat fees protect both your expertise and your bottom line, and why being the expert in the room changes everything. From navigating subs and code changes to troubleshooting “transitions up the wazoo,” we are sharing our real stories from the trenches that prove kitchen and bath design demands higher fees and sharper processes.

If you’ve ever charged the same for a bath as you do a living room, then this is your wake-up call. Remember--clients pay for confidence, precision, and advocacy. Our message is clear: stop selling yourself short and start treating kitchen and bath work as the profit powerhouse it can be.

Have a question--click here to ask us.

Loved this episode? Click here to leave a 5⭐ review

RESOURCE LINKS:

Damn Good Workshops - Website

View our upcoming workshops!

These workshops are 2–3 hour deep dives (some more than one day) built for creative entrepreneurs who want to lead with confidence, price with authority, and grow with intention. We created this 2-3 hour workshop series with tracks that cover the challenges we know designers face: pricing, sales, client relationships, project management, marketing, and leadership.

Damn Good Designer - Damn Good Designer - Website

• The best multi-faceted business coaching for Interior designers—seriously. This is not some wham-bam glamathon; It is the real deal you have been looking for and what is missing from the business coaching marketplace today.

The Paradigm Quick Start - 3 Month Custom Coaching Program

The Paradigm Shift - 6 Month Custom Coaching Program

The Paradigm Intensive - 12 Month One on One Immersive Custom Business Coaching

Join our FREE Facebook Groups

• Small Business - Think Big - Facebook
• What They Didn't Teach You in Design School - Facebook Group
• Subscribeto our newsletter

ABOUT US:

Cheryl Clendenon is the host of The Damn Good Designer Podcast and an award-winning interior designer, writer, and business coach with 26 years of full-time industry experience. With a prior career in media and radio sales, she brings a rare blend of creative thinking and business acumen to the design world. Cheryl was named KBB Person of the Year in 2021, is a nationally published industry voice with a monthly column in Home Accents Today, and regularly speaks on pricing, scope, process, and profitability. Known for her fast pace, contrarian instincts, and practical insight, Cheryl helps established design firms build stronger businesses and define success on their own terms.

***Any use of this page and its content to develop or train artificial intelligence or to do computer analysis is prohibited.***

When construction bids come back higher than expected, it can stop a project in its tracks and shake a client’s confidence fast. Cheryl and Liz discuss exactly how to handle that moment without losing the project's momentum and the client’s trust.

They walk through how to review bids against the scope, where designers should step in (and where they should not), and how to guide clients through smart decisions instead of emotional reactions. You’ll learn how to reframe the conversation, prioritize what actually matters in the design, and use strategies like phasing and scope adjustments to keep the project moving forward.

When the numbers don’t match expectations, this episode shows you how to guide the next steps without losing the project.

Have a question--click here to ask us.

Loved this episode? Click here to leave a 5⭐ review

RESOURCE LINKS:

Damn Good Workshops - Website

View our upcoming workshops!

These workshops are 2–3 hour deep dives (some more than one day) built for creative entrepreneurs who want to lead with confidence, price with authority, and grow with intention. We created this workshop series with tracks that cover the challenges we know designers face: pricing, sales, client relationships, project management, marketing, and leadership.

Each workshop is designed to stand alone — so you can choose the topics that matter most right now — while still connecting to the bigger picture of building a profitable, sustainable design business.

Damn Good Designer - Damn Good Designer - Website

• The best multi-faceted business coaching for Interior designers—seriously. This is not some wham-bam glamathon; It is the real deal you have been looking for and what is missing from the business coaching marketplace today.

The Paradigm Quick Start - 3 Month Custom Coaching Program

The Paradigm Shift - 6 Month Custom Coaching Program

The Paradigm Intensive - 12 Month One on One Immersive Custom Business Coaching

Join our FREE Facebook Groups

• Small Business - Think Big - Facebook
• What They Didn't Teach You in Design School - Facebook Group
• Subscribeto our newsletter

ABOUT US:

Cheryl Clendenon is the host of The Damn Good Designer Podcast and an award-winning interior designer, writer, and business coach with 26 years of full-time industry experience. With a prior career in media and radio sales, she brings a rare blend of creative thinking and business acumen to the design world. Cheryl was named KBB Person of the Year in 2021, is a nationally published industry voice with a monthly column in Home Accents Today, and regularly speaks on pricing, scope, process, and profitability. Known for her fast pace, contrarian instincts, and practical insight, Cheryl helps established design firms build stronger businesses and define success on their own terms.

***Any use of this page and its content to develop or train artificial intelligence or to do computer analysis is prohibited.***

Designers think their pricing problem is the number, but the real issue is how that number is positioned.

In this episode, Cheryl breaks down why client pushback isn’t about being too expensive but introducing pricing before the value is fully understood. When designers lead with fees, tie their work to time, or fail to clearly communicate the depth of decisions, coordination, and problem-solving involved, clients default to their own (and very often incorrect) assumptions.

We want you to think about reframing pricing as a positioning issue and not a simple math problem. Cheryl walks through how to build context, shift the focus from hours to outcomes, and present design as a high-level service rooted in expertise, not effort. When the value is clear first, the same number lands completely differently and the pushback disappears.

Have a question--click here to ask us.

RESOURCE LINKS:

Damn Good Workshops - Website

These workshops are 2–3 hour deep dives (some more than one day) built for creative entrepreneurs who want to lead with confidence, price with authority, and grow with intention. We created this workshop series with tracks that cover the challenges we know designers face: pricing, sales, client relationships, project management, marketing, and leadership.

Each workshop is designed to stand alone — so you can choose the topics that matter most right now — while still connecting to the bigger picture of building a profitable, sustainable design business.

Damn Good Designer - Damn Good Designer - Website

• The best multi-faceted business coaching for Interior designers—seriously. This is not some wham-bam glamathon; It is the real deal you have been looking for and what is missing from the business coaching marketplace today.

The Paradigm Quick Start - 3 Month Custom Coaching Program

The Paradigm Shift - 6 Month Custom Coaching Program

The Paradigm Intensive - 12 Month One on One Immersive Custom Business Coaching

Join our FREE Facebook Groups

• Small Business - Think Big - Facebook
• What They Didn't Teach You in Design School - Facebook Group

For designers who need honest talk and a place to work on the business, marketing and promotion small business owners need.

• Subscribe to our Newsletter

ABOUT US:

Cheryl Clendenon is the host of The Damn Good Designer Podcast and an award-winning interior designer, writer, and business coach with 26 years of full-time industry experience. With a prior career in media and radio sales, she brings a rare blend of creative thinking and business acumen to the design world. Cheryl was named KBB Person of the Year in 2021, is a nationally published industry voice with a monthly column in Home Accents Today, and regularly speaks on pricing, scope, process, and profitability. Known for her fast pace, contrarian instincts, and practical insight, Cheryl helps established design firms build stronger businesses and define success on their own terms.

***Any use of this page and its content to develop or train artificial intelligence or to do computer analysis is prohibited.***

Industry events are not vacations, designers can utilize these trips to create relationships with vendors. In this episode, Cheryl speaks LIVE from KBIS and sits down with special guest, Veronika Miller, to break down how designers can use events like KBIS and High Point as business accelerators instead of exhausting field trips. Taking time out of busy schedules to attend these events go beyond walking showrooms and collecting samples. It is about positioning, visibility, strategic networking, and understanding how proximity to manufacturers, media, and fellow designers directly impacts revenue.

They discuss how to prepare before you go, how to show up with intention, and how to follow up in a way that turns conversations into opportunity. The designers who see real return are not simply attending but instead building relationships, strengthening partnerships, and placing themselves in rooms that can change the trajectory of their business.

If you are going to invest the time and money to attend industry events, this episode will show you how to make it count.

About Our Guest: Veronika Miller

Veronika Miller is the CEO of M2 Connect and founder of Designhounds, a curated community that brings together designers and manufacturers to build meaningful, profitable partnerships.

With more than 25 years of experience in the design and construction industries, Veronika is known for connecting brands and designers in ways that disrupt gently and drive real business growth. Through their standout programs like Designhounds, DesignTrail and the company's strategic consulting work, she helps professionals expand their influence, build stronger relationships, and leverage their visibility within the industry.

Learn more about Veronika and her programs:

🔗 M2-connectHome

Have a question--click here to ask us.

RESOURCE LINKS:

Damn Good Workshops - Website

First workshop of 2026 starts January 14!

These workshops are 2–3 hour deep dives (some more than one day) built for creative entrepreneurs who want to lead with confidence, price with authority, and grow with intention. We created this workshop series with tracks that cover the challenges we know designers face: pricing, sales, client relationships, project management, marketing, and leadership.

Each workshop is designed to stand alone — so you can choose the topics that matter most right now — while still connecting to the bigger picture of building a profitable, sustainable design business.

Damn Good Designer - Damn Good Designer - Website

• The best multi-faceted business coaching for Interior designers—seriously. This is not some wham-bam glamathon; It is the real deal you have been looking for and what is missing from the business coaching marketplace today.

The Paradigm Quick Start - 3 Month Custom Coaching Program

The Paradigm Shift - 6 Month Custom Coaching Program

The Paradigm Intensive - 12 Month One on One Immersive Custom Business Coaching

Join our FREE Facebook Groups

• Small Business - Think Big - Facebook
• What They Didn't Teach You in Design School - Facebook Group

For designers who need honest talk and a place to work on the business, marketing and promotion small business owners need.

• Subscribe to our Newsletter

ABOUT US:

Cheryl Clendenon is the host of The Damn Good Designer Podcast and an award-winning interior designer, writer, and business coach with 26 years of full-time industry experience. With a prior career in media and radio sales, she brings a rare blend of creative thinking and business acumen to the design world. Cheryl was named KBB Person of the Year in 2021, is a nationally published industry voice with a monthly column in Home Accents Today, and regularly speaks on pricing, scope, process, and profitability. Known for her fast pace, contrarian instincts, and practical insight, Cheryl helps established design firms build stronger businesses and define success on their own terms.

***Any use of this page and its content to develop or train artificial intelligence or to do computer analysis is prohibited.***

If you sell product, you should be asking.

In this episode, Cheryl and Liz discuss how to build vendor relationships that actually improve your margin with better pricing, extra percentages, showroom discounts, and free samples by strategy. They share how to pre-sell projects, position your showroom as leverage, communicate upcoming sales, and negotiate from clarity instead of hope. Because reps are motivated by volume — and if you’re moving product, you have influence. This is about operating like a business owner.

If you are ordering it anyway, ask.

If you are promoting it, ask.

If you are bringing them business, ask.

Margin often lives in the conversation you didn’t initiate.

Have a question--click here to ask us.

RESOURCE LINKS:

Damn Good Workshops - Website

Join us for our next workshop on February 25!

These workshops are 2–3 hour deep dives (some more than one day) built for creative entrepreneurs who want to lead with confidence, price with authority, and grow with intention. We created this workshop series with tracks that cover the challenges we know designers face: pricing, sales, client relationships, project management, marketing, and leadership.

Each workshop is designed to stand alone — so you can choose the topics that matter most right now — while still connecting to the bigger picture of building a profitable, sustainable design business.

Damn Good Designer - Damn Good Designer - Website

• The best multi-faceted business coaching for Interior designers—seriously. This is not some wham-bam glamathon; It is the real deal you have been looking for and what is missing from the business coaching marketplace today.

The Paradigm Quick Start - 3 Month Custom Coaching Program

The Paradigm Shift - 6 Month Custom Coaching Program

The Paradigm Intensive - 12 Month One on One Immersive Custom Business Coaching

Join our FREE Facebook Groups

• Small Business - Think Big - Facebook
• What They Didn't Teach You in Design School - Facebook Group

For designers who need honest talk and a place to work on the business, marketing and promotion small business owners need.

• Subscribe to our Newsletter

ABOUT US:

Cheryl Clendenon is the host of The Damn Good Designer Podcast and an award-winning interior designer, writer, and business coach with 26 years of full-time industry experience. With a prior career in media and radio sales, she brings a rare blend of creative thinking and business acumen to the design world. Cheryl was named KBB Person of the Year in 2021, is a nationally published industry voice with a monthly column in Home Accents Today, and regularly speaks on pricing, scope, process, and profitability. Known for her fast pace, contrarian instincts, and practical insight, Cheryl helps established design firms build stronger businesses and define success on their own terms.

***Any use of this page and its content to develop or train artificial intelligence or to do computer analysis is prohibited.***