Design Notes

📖 Get Jarrett's book, Graphic Designers after Graphic Design: https://jarrettfuller.store/products/graphic-designers-after-graphic-design

In this episode of Design Notes, host I sit down with Jarrett Fuller—a multidisciplinary designer, educator, writer, and host of the Scratching the Surface podcast. We dug into some of the most fundamental questions surrounding the field today: What is design, how do we do it, and why does it matter?

Drawing from his latest book, Graphic Designers After Graphic Design: Designer as Publisher / Researcher / Change Maker / Performer / Artist, Jarrett looks at the evolving journeys of contemporary practitioners who have given the discipline a richer, more expansive horizon. The conversation explores how modern designers are stepping outside traditional commercial silos to operate as cultural producers, authors, and instigators.

• Jarrett's Website: https://jarrettfuller.com/
• Podcast: Scratching the Surface

• (01:06) - Welcome & collaborating across projects
• (02:20) - Jarrett’s background: From commercial practice to cultural practice
• (05:21) - Design as a discipline vs. design as a profession
• (10:55) - The root of design's existential anxiety and invisibility
• (16:07) - The trap of systematizing design into engineering
• (18:22) - Where is the critical discourse in design?
• (23:01) - Why is graphic design always "dying"?
• (28:04) - Graphic Designers After Graphic Design and pluralistic models of practice
• (33:29) - Leaning into the blurriness and the true meaning of "graphic"
• (38:34) - Labor, specialization, and creative solidarity
• (41:04) - Advice for designers looking to expand their practice
• (47:00) - Where to find Jarrett online & Outro

This episode, I talked with my coworker Megan Kasselberg, whose work as a senior UX writer and content designer touches billions of users through the Material Design system.

In our conversation, Megan and I dug into the storytelling and strategy that goes into a design system as vast as Material, including the language of guidelines assets, the effect of earnest expression, and how UX writing is changing in an age of AI.

Read a full transcript at interfacecafe.com.

In the episode, Megan mentions psychologist and behavioral economist Daniel Kahneman, plus a shoutout to our colleagues Rux and Andrew whose work on color has reshaped how software at Google feels.

• (00:00) - Introduction
• (01:52) - UX Writing and Behavioral Science
• (02:57) - Documenting Material Design
• (06:45) - Internal vs. External System Guidance
• (09:59) - Tooling and Constraints in Figma
• (11:15) - Collaborating with Designers
• (13:00) - Illustrations and Expressive Design
• (17:18) - The Controversial Baseline Color
• (22:48) - Voice, Tone, and AI in UX Writing
• (35:56) - Advice for Designers
• (36:50) - Outro

This episode, I got to sit down with my friend, podcast cohost on Away from Keyboard, and former coworker Louise Macfadyen as she prepares to launch her new book Designing AI Interfaces with Oreilly this Spring.

We had a lot to talk about, from managing the conceptual distance between what AI actually does and what people imagine it can do, to the new skills designers, engineers, and PMs need to work with models, the potential harms of new technology, and some of the patterns designers can use to keep ethics and safety in the loop.

Designing AI Interfaces is available from O'Reilly Media April 21st, 2026.

In this episode, Liam speaks with Rachel Been, SVP of Design for Expedia Group, about her journey from photography to design leadership and why she believes this is "the era of the generalist." The conversation unpacks the recent launch of Expedia's new app on ChatGPT and what it means to design for "non-deterministic flows" and "infinite inputs." Rachel explains how AI is breaking old, linear design paradigms and why, in an age of potential "design slop," deep curiosity and human-centered craft are more important than ever.

Read a transcript and check out more from me at https://interfacecafe.com

Episode Chapters:

00:00 Introduction 01:34 The Generalist Designer 11:22 Launching the Expedia App for ChatGPT 16:00 Beyond the Search Bar 25:44 Designing for Infinity 34:03 The Sandwich Theory 39:41 Avoiding Design Slop: Advice on Craft

In this episode, Liam speaks with Zürich-based architect and artist Fabian Bircher, whose work spans buildings, custom lighting, and interactive installations. Fabian discusses his unique creative process, where inspiration flows from both artistic concepts and the discovery of new technological possibilities. The conversation explores the materiality of light through his Buoy lamps and dichroic foil installations, the process of revealing hidden digital systems with his "Reporting Device," and the unexpected role of randomness in creating kinetic art.

Find a full transcript and more at https://interfacecafe.com, and subscribe so you don't miss an episode.

Episode Chapters:

01:16 Intro and Background

03:52 The Exchange Between Tech and Creativity

06:04 Breaking Into the Unknown

07:52 Buoy Lamps and the Vermicelleria

12:58 The Materiality of Light

16:12 Bringing Light to a Brutalist Schoolhouse

19:15 The Reporting Device

24:02 Revealing the Unseen

25:49 Anthropomorphic Architecture

29:54 The Role of Randomness

31:54 Does it All Make Sense?

34:34 What Should We Be Focused On?

37:40 Outro

In this episode, I reconnect with my former instructor, type designer and design coach Troy Leinster. Troy shares his journey from graphic design to type design, and explains why learning to make letters makes you a better designer.

We also dig into the importance of trusting the human eye over geometry, the productive friction of sketching by hand, and how understanding calligraphy builds a stronger perspective on type design.

Troy discusses why, in the age of AI, the most important thing a designer can do is put their personal touch on the work.

Rob Giampietro, Head of Creative at Notion and former Design Director at MoMA, returns to the show to unpack the story behind Notion Faces, the popular tool that allows users to create their own illustrated avatar.

Rob details the project's journey from a beloved internal tradition to a major public launch, including the pivotal decision to scale with human illustrators instead of AI to maintain the brand's unique, handcrafted quality.

The conversation explores how the team shifted its focus from "likeness" to "expression," the power of modularity in design systems, and the research process that made the project a success.

📋 Read a transcript

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In this episode, designer, educator, and author David Reinfurt returns to the show to discuss his latest book, A *Co-* Program for Graphic Design. Born from a series of lectures delivered remotely, online, and together with collaborators and cooperators, the new book builds on his earlier "spoken" book, exploring some unexpected and intuitive overlaps between design and the rest of the world around us.

In conversation, Liam and David cover the power of hands-on learning, the importance of going against expectations as a designer, and the positionality of design—its closeness to everyday life, how it affects those that encounter it, and how it's taught—and how individual perspective is the real driver of design as a practice.

Read a full transcript.

Episode Chapters:

00:00 Introduction and Background 08:53 Teaching as Performance 14:34 The Role of Collaboration in Design 18:26 Diverse Perspectives in Design Education 21:55 Exploring Design Space and Topology 26:34 Hands-On Learning in Design Education 30:13 Art and Design 32:34 Creating Space for Reflection in Design 36:34 The Evolution of Design Conventions 39:38 The Bait and Switch 42:04 Individual Perspectives in Design

This special episode digs into the latest evolution of Google's design system: Material 3 Expressive.

Liam talks with Material Design's Android Product Manager Aneesha Kommineni, UX Researcher Michael Gilbert, and Creative Director Andy Stewart about the team's latest emotion-driven UX update. They reveal how this system is grounded in user research and how it offers both developers and users more flexibility. The group also chats about making design more than objective, connecting to users' emotional landscapes, and driving business outcomes — all while considering tooling, usability, accessibility, and more.

Stay tuned for upcoming episodes featuring guests like O-R-G's David Reinfurt, type designer Troy Leinster, and more!

Read a full transcript.

This season's special series celebrating ten years since the launch of Material Design closes out with Rich Fulcher, former Google UX director and Material design lead. Fulcher remembers the career-defining journey of creating Material, what it was like to make beauty a UX priority, how to pressure test a system, and what he's learned about world-building across disciplines. Today, he's creating board games, continuing to apply the design-thinking and problem-solving skills developed during his time at Google.

Leave us a rating, and subscribe so you don't miss new episodes with creative practitioners across disciplines.

📻

• (00:45) - Intro
• (07:02) - What's a Designer?
• (09:37) - Design as a Mindset
• (10:17) - Google Before Material
• (15:21) - Beauty as a Priority
• (17:24) - Mission Statement as a Design Challenge
• (18:29) - What is Beauty?
• (22:47) - Design System Worldbuilding
• (25:19) - Pressure Testing
• (40:04) - "Yeah, Get a Design System"
• (41:19) - The Stakeholder Onion
• (46:58) - The Influence of Game Design
• (50:51) - Outro

This season's special series celebrating ten years since the launch of Material Design continues with Adrian Secord, who describes himself as a "roving engineer." Adrian has over a decade of experience building systems and tools that transform design into robust product engineering at scale. Plus, a PhD in Computer Graphics.

Here, he reflects on the evolution of Material Design and the (potentially) exciting possibilities for AI-driven UI. He shares insights on the complexities of large-scale design systems and highlights the need for designers and engineers to find common ground.

This season's special series celebrating ten years since the launch of Material Design continues with Software Engineering Manager and Musical Theater Writer Will Larche, who talks about his path to become an engineering manager at Google. Larche, a self-proclaimed "design fan," describes engineering as "creativity with constraints." Here, he explains how the development of Material over the years has led to closer collaboration between design and engineering, and imagines how new AI experiments might open up a new era of "Star Trek design."

This episode is part of a special series celebrating ten years of Material Design. In the episode, Liam speaks with Bethany Fong, a Design Director at Meta who was a pivotal figure in the creation of Material Design.

During her time at Google, Fong was responsible for designing the first set of Material components (including Material's signature Floating Action Button), and went on to become a design Lead on the team.

In their conversation, Liam and Bethany talk about the tactile nature of design, the importance of keeping a notebook, and how the heady early days of Material unfolded.

👉 Read a full transcript

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This season begins with a special series celebrating ten years since the launch of Material Design, which will explore the inception, evolution, and future of Google's design approach. The first episode features the founder of Material Design and Design VP Matías Duarte, whose work on the system has pushed design forward at Google and across devices everywhere.

In their conversation, Liam and Matías unpack how interfaces are made, used, and understood—and identify opportunities to move them further into the future via a highly crafted, individualized design approach.

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Liam speaks with Googlers Connie Shi, a software engineer on Material Design, and Matvei Malkov, a software engineer on Jetpack Compose, and the trio unpack what makes coding a creative practice, and which creative choices are required when you build a design system for other developers around the world.

The wide-ranging conversation turns from complex problem solving and technical logic to the concept of creativity as the question-provoking quality of a thought.

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Liam and Google Fonts Specialist Dave Crossland explore what digital type can teach us about digital production, emotional expression, and where we fit in the world as designers; and how – with a little imagination – we might unlock new possibilities.

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In this episode, Liam speaks with Judith Donath, the founder of MIT's Sociable Media Lab, inventor of e-cards, and author of The Social Machine: Designs for Living Online. Donath's work offers crucial insights into the sociality of digital products and platforms, and the opportunities we have as digital producers to make things that truly meet sociable ends. In the episode, Donath unpacks some of this work, exploring potential futures for life online and the joy of learning (and sharing) something new.

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Liam speaks with Aline Borges, a Zürich-based floral designer who's made the leap from fashion coordination for magazines like Vogue and Harper's Bazaar to independent floral design and installations. The conversation covers what it's like to move between different creative fields (and countries), how to think about composition to tackle almost any creative challenge, and the courage and community it takes to start on a new venture.

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In this episode, we revisit a conversation from Season 1 with new media artist Harvey Moon, recorded in his San Francisco studio.

Liam and Harvey discuss how Moon's work reveals unseen properties of the world around us, the process of creating one's own creative tools, and the kind of art that's only made possible through collaboration with machines.

The conversation expands on ideas about the way the world around us is designed and redesigned, and where that places us as designers.

Read the full transcript: https://www.iamli.am/design-notes-podcast/harvey-moon-new-media-artist

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Liam speaks with streetscape and public space designer Ignacio Ciocchini, who's created much of the public furniture that New Yorkers encounter every single day – from benches that provide personal space, to entire built landscapes for Bryant Park, to chargers for electric vehicles and more.

The conversation ranges from the materiality of the built environment, to the ways in which it expands, constrains, and informs our experiences of life and socialization in a city, with a look toward the more human-focused future that Ciocchini envisions.

Read the full transcript: https://www.iamli.am/design-notes-podcast/ignacio-ciocchini-nyc-public-furniture

Subscribe to Design Notes:

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