Doomer Optimism

An old friend to the show, once maybe a foe for a while, back into friendly territory: Michael Thomas the Director of The Catholic Land Movement. I (Ashley) met Mike a almost half a decade ago, very early in my twitter days. It’s been a joy to see his vocation develop through the years and I am very glad Jason invited him back on the show.

In this episode, Mike and Jason discuss the development of the movement, Catholic Social Teaching, distributism, dignified work and practical action, the importance of in person connection, vocation, family, and love!

Enjoy!

I met Dwayne at a chance encounter at the Aspen Ideas festival in Chicago which my new buddy Samuel Kimbriel invited me to attend. I was feeling a little lonely and alienated there, lots of technocrats, and up to me walks Dwayne who saw my tag said optimism and he said “I am just about the most optimistic guy you’ll meet!”

I saw his tag from the Southeastern Grasslands Institute and I instantly knew this was someone I’d need to have on the pod. Unsurprisingly I tapped Peter Allen to co-host with me and these two were fast friends! Oak savannah ecosystem nerds unite!

Enjoy this episode!

If you want to support Dwayne’s work, consider attending the Eastern Native Grasslands Symposium conference: https://www.engsymposium.org/home or finding their work here: https://www.segrasslands.org/

I met Stephen this summer at the Woodcrest Bruderhof + DO + Savage Collective event in NY. Alan from Plough suggested Stephen for a panel and he instantly agreed! He gave a fantastic talk about the wonderful characters in his neighborhood, and the very real sense of place that happens when you invite the colorful characters into your life.

He had to run off to a family event after but he and I instantly hit it off and are slowly but surely planning a DO + Cracks in Pomo event in Manhattan, once we find the right format and speakers. In this episode we cover:

Stephen’s background

Postmodernism and the return of religion

Suburban disenchantment

Living tradition vs. traditionalism

Civic life over culture war

The Staten Island saint feast and MAGA

Roots, immigration, and integration

Humor, friction, and HR culture

Subsidiarity and overcentralization

The Catholic Worker and in-person events

Follow Stephen's work at: https://cracksinpomo.substack.com/

Jason initiated this get together of some of the original DO crew to discuss the life, work and legacy of Wendell Berry. It is no secret that Berry’s work has been an animating force for nearly everyone orbiting DO, especially those of us interested in food and ag systems. We discuss not only the legacy of Berry’s nonfiction work — how he suggested the agricultural system would collapse and so far it largely hasn’t, but also his fiction and poetry which actually has a great contribution on love, companionship, and romance.

Every once in a while someone comes into the DO world and it is so clear how well they fit in it’s amazing you hadn’t found them yet! This is true of Mike, Chicagoan, Northsider (boo!), who has a vision for how to make good things in the world and is working to do so.

Right now that looks like a manufacturing business he started, but Mike talks through his whole trajectory from fancy universities, working in politics, Chicago river ship boat captain, to trying to revitalize middle side American cities (with the help of Nick Offerman).

You can support Mike’s work here: http://www.wilmot-productions.com/

This episode explores how Josh and Hannah Centers built Chapter House, a publishing project designed to restore beautiful, culturally literate children’s books to homeschool families. From Homer and Shakespeare to Beowulf, Greek myth, and Our Island Story, they explain why classic literature still matters for forming attention, imagination, and virtue in a distracted age.

They also share the homeschooling experiences that shaped their philosophy, including Hannah’s background as a public school teacher, their journey with a dyslexic child, and why Charlotte Mason’s ideas about habit training and whole-person education continue to guide their work. Josh makes the case that the liberal arts are even more important in the age of AI, while Hannah describes how the right book can open a reluctant reader’s world.

If you care about education, great books, or raising kids with depth and resilience, this conversation offers a thoughtful and hopeful vision for what learning can be.

"But at Least They're Human: Face-to-Face Living -- With Joy and Without Illusions"From the conference: Another Life is Possible co-organized by the Woodcrest Bruderhof community, Doomer Optimism and Savage Collective, July 2026https://doomeroptimism.substack.com/p/do-308-bill-kauffman

Tom and Jason talk to Lenny Wells - pecan farmer and extension agent - about growing pecans in Georgia, the cultural and ecological factors.

Along the way we also discuss:

-how he got into pecans

-his book on pecans

-consulting with a pecan farmer in Spain

-his love for Wendell Berry, and

-fly-fishing in Montana

Enjoy!

In this episode Ashley and Jacob discuss the concept of microcolleges, and examples of alternative educational models writ large.

Timestamps:

00:00 - Intro: Exploring education, community, and sustainability

02:27 - How a class on sustainable development shifted a life trajectory

04:02 - Higher education as transformative yet bureaucratic: a nuanced view

06:20 - The role of micro-colleges as laboratories for alternative education models

08:20 - Microcollege principles: human scale, place-based focus, holistic curriculum

10:12 - Experiential learning in agriculture and sustainability in Uruguay

13:19 - Moving to Uruguay: motivation, land, community, and self-sufficiency

16:26 - The influence of environmental sociology and fieldwork on education

18:13 - Rizoma and regenerative agriculture: connecting resources across bioregions

23:21 - Adapting the Uruguay model to local high schools and legislative advocacy

26:13 - The challenges of bureaucratic hurdles in US-based experiential programs

27:27 - The origins and evolution of Thoreau College in Wisconsin

28:05 - Deep roots in the Driftless region, organic farming, and educational experimentation

29:04 - Waldorf pedagogy, family-centered schooling, and youth leadership

31:51 - Deep Springs College: history, pillars, and self-governance

34:40 - The influence of Nicola Tesla and pioneering education in remote settings

36:27 - The unique, small scale, and community-centered design of Deep Springs and inspired schools

40:34 - Gender, environment, and community: reflections on co-ed versus single-sex models

41:26 - The importance of family and nurturing environments in education communities

43:11 - The role of place-based knowledge and historical understanding in cultivating belonging

45:27 - The holistic curriculum: arts, nature, and expedition-based experiential learning

48:45 - The ethics and profundity of slaughtering animals as a ritual of reverence

50:05 - Broadening perspectives: practical engagement over superficial debates

54:35 - The significance of embodied work, such as farming and outdoor survival skills

55:55 - Building agency through collective effort and sharing tangible skills

62:45 - The impact of experiential and community-based learning on resilience

65:05 - Ideals of subsidiarity and bioregional identity as anchors for local culture

66:39 - The cultural and environmental richness of bioregions like the Driftless

70:47 - The importance of place-based storytelling, native histories, and ecological literacy

75:34 - The power of local, tangible practices versus abstract ideologies

77:26 - The role of shared projects in dissolving superficial divisions

85:12 - Cultivating inner resilience and emotional strength through holistic education

87:11 - Moving from global scale despair to local scale action and empowerment

89:04 - The importance of facing difficulties together and growing through challenge

90:46 - The value of community hubs and bioregional identity in creating hope and agency

Movetonewathens.com

TIMESTAMPS:

00:00 - Introducing the idea of building a city from scratch to address societal doom
02:08 - Jackson’s background in tech and recruitment influencing city planning
03:03 - The role of ambition and ecosystem understanding in city development
06:20 - How tech industry recruitment reveals societal dysfunction and potential solutions
08:39 - The cultural decline: urban decay, regulations, and family disconnection
11:48 - The blueprint for New Athens: promises to residents and leveraging local incentives
15:07 - Examining societal doom: urban chaos, lawlessness, and cultural disintegration
18:19 - Why cities are the optimal size for revival and the role of regulations
19:16 - Ideal demographic makeup: balancing virtue, ambition, and risk-taking
21:49 - Global and regional efforts for renewal: bioregions, state lines, and culture-based organization
26:56 - Practical steps for deregulation and attracting people, businesses, and investors
33:01 - The significance of moral bounds, virtue, and community in city planning
42:50 - The importance of craft manufacturing, local food, and human-scaled urban design
46:47 - Envisioning a human-friendly, tech-lite city culture
52:28 - Population growth, family life, and the cultural mimetic effect
58:40 - The collapse of woke ideology and the rise of anti-tech, pro-human movements
65:00 - AI as a secular religion, the need to maintain human sovereignty and meaningful life
71:01 - The role of technology regulation: keeping devices off the body and emphasizing human presence
76:33 - The dynamics of institution-building, trust, and leadership challenges
83:50 - The archetype of visionary leaders and operational builders for city creation
88:17 - How to follow and support the New Athens project

Patrick Lemmon and Seth Harris

In this episode, Patrick and Seth discuss the principles of traditional and orthodox building methods, the importance of local materials, and the future of sustainable construction. They explore how craftsmanship, local culture, and thoughtful design can create enduring and meaningful structures.

Keywords:

building, masonry, traditional construction, local materials, sustainability, architecture, craftsmanship, Vermont, masonry revival, orthodox

Chapters

00:00 Introduction to the Built Environment and Human Flourishing

03:00 Personal Journeys in Craftsmanship and Building Traditions

05:58 The Philosophy Behind Orthodox Masonry

08:54 The Importance of Teamwork in Craftsmanship

11:50 Learning from Nature: Building with Local Materials

15:00 Challenging Traditional Building Practices

18:02 The Historical Context of Building in Vermont

21:04 The Concept of Housewrights and Holistic Building

23:57 The Impact of Industrialization on Building Practices

27:03 The Relationship Between Building Materials and Environment

29:59 The Future of Building: Embracing Local and Sustainable Practices

40:02 The Impact of Flooding on Homes

41:56 The Evolution of Building Materials

43:50 Ventilation and Heating in Masonry Homes

50:04 Design Principles in Architecture

52:00 The State of the Building Arts Movement

01:03:04 Optimism in Building Practices

Orthodox Masonry is a design/build firm specializing in structural masonry and timber frame construction. Creating buildings that are both structurally and aesthetically resilient, we offer an alternative to disposable construction. https://www.orthodoxmasonry.com/about

In this episode, Alicia Pederson, founder of Courtyard Urbanist, takes us on a fascinating journey from ancient Rome to today’s urban development roadblocks. She explains how courtyard-based architecture can address housing shortages, social isolation, and environmental concerns—all while creating vibrant, affordable neighborhoods for middle-class families.

Read more about Alicia's work and vision here: https://courtyardurbanist.com/p/welcome-to-courtyard-urbanist

AI, Existential Risk, and the Future of the Human Soul

Geoffrey Long of Long Story Farms joins Jason to talk about what it actually takes to build a working farmstead part-time, the real challenges of scaling production and finding local markets, and why he thinks a permanent storefront can do what farmers' markets can't. We also get into his philosophy around local economies, community resilience, and why he believes people with skills and agency are better positioned more than most for whatever comes next.Geoffrey Long runs Long Story Farms in Newberry, South Carolina, where he raises Jersey cows, pigs, laying hens, ducks, and turkeys on 130 acres while maintaining a nine-year-old food forest and holding down a full-time corporate job. He's also spent the last three years renovating a historic building on Main Street to open Farms on Main, a local food grocery and zero-waste refillery focused on low food miles and minimal packaging.instagram.com/longstoryfarmscfacebook.com/longstoryfarmsx.com/longstoryfarms

When Your Tractor Breaks, Open Source the Whole Civilization

Marcin Jakubowski, founder of Open Source Ecology, joins Ashley to talk about his 20-year project to open source the blueprints for civilization, starting with a broken tractor on a Missouri farm and expanding into a full Global Village Construction Set of 50 industrial machines. They get into the abundance vs. scarcity mindset, solar concrete, modular open source housing at $100K build cost, why proprietary design is a bad mental model, and how Marcin is now recruiting 75 people for his Future Builders Academy to finish the whole set by 2028. If you've ever been frustrated by planned obsolescence, right to repair, or the cost of building anything in America, this one's for you.

https://www.opensourceecology.org/

Three hundred episodes in, and we’re still here, still questioning, still laughing, still building.

In this special 300th episode, we gather voices from across DO; past guests, hosts, collaborators, and community members, to reflect on what this experiment has meant to us. What began as a space to grapple honestly with economic, ecological, and political unraveling has become something deeper: a living, breathing community grounded in realism and sustained by stubborn hope.

We discuss our favorite moments and celebrate what happens when people choose to face hard truths together, and still believe in the possibility of regeneration.

If you’ve listened once or a hundred times, joined us at an event, or simply wrestled with these ideas on your own, you’re part of this story.

Here’s to the next chapter.

Willy Denner of Little Seed Gardens in Chatham, NY, joins Jason and returning co-host Nigel Best for a wide-ranging conversation about 32 years of small-scale organic farming, the economics of direct market production, and the political philosophy of Henry George.

Willy shares how he and his wife, Claudia, built their 100-acre vegetable and grass-fed beef operation from scratch — no farming background, just conviction, soil maps, and thousands of miles of driving back roads in search of land. He talks about the decision to scale back production by 75% this year, the grind of farmers' markets, and what it means to farm as a strategy toward a life rather than as an end in itself.

They go into a deep, practical discussion of Georgism and the Land Value Tax. Willy, Nigel, and Jason explore why Henry George’s Progress and Poverty — once the best-selling book in English after the Bible — argued that taxing land value (not labor, not production, not transactions) is the only morally coherent and economically efficient basis for taxation. They dig into the difference between land and capital, the concept of economic rent, and why current property and income taxes penalize production while rewarding speculation, and whether any path to a single tax exists short of civilizational crisis.

Also covered: no-till vegetable growing, solarization techniques, homemade farm equipment, holistic management as a decision-making framework, and advice for young people trying to find their footing.

www.littleseedgardens.com

Jason is joined by Greg Cello to discuss his plan to build a regional wool industry in New England, starting with sheep on his Rhode Island homestead. This isn't just about producing sweaters; Greg sees sheep farming as a way to revive the cooperative spirit that once defined rural communities, where families worked together and traded their goods through local granges.

The conversation touches on how Greg went from military officer to homesteader, why he pulled his kids out of school and daycare to raise them at home, and how his Catholic faith became central to everything he does. He talks about the difference between environmentalism and true conservationism, his daily podcast where he works through ideas in real time, and the Globalism Slayer account he created to highlight small American family businesses as a counterweight to globalism.

Greg is candid about the challenges of building roots in an expensive real estate market, the tension between using modern platforms like X and Substack to promote a vision of local self-sufficiency, and what it would actually look like to create generational stability for his family and community. The episode explores subsidiarity, discipline, dissidence, and what moves people to reject the default modern life and try something harder but more meaningful.

You can find Greg at Kinward on Substack and

@dissidntdad on X

How patient design and ideological diversity are reshaping food production

Ashley sits down with Ryan Blosser and Trevor Piersol, co-founders of Shenandoah Permaculture Institute and authors of Mulberries in the Rain, to explore permaculture beyond the stereotype of backyard herb spirals. We discuss what sets permaculture apart from regenerative agriculture, the evolving demographics of people drawn to food production, and how ideological diversity from left-wing environmentalists to conservative land stewards strengthens the movement.

We dive into the practicalities of perennial systems, why comfrey matters more than you might think, and the often-overlooked messiness of annual vegetable farming. Ryan and Trevor challenge permaculture dogma around native plants and invasive species, sharing our own experiences with bamboo and autumn olive. We also discuss Ryan's innovative farm-based education program that integrates Virginia's K-12 curriculum standards with food production and how it's showing promising results for student achievement while producing thousands of pounds of organic food for the community.

As the discussion turns philosophical, we explore what "doomer optimism" really means: preparing for an uncertain future not out of fear, but because building local food systems, land relationships, and community resilience are inherently fulfilling. We examine land access challenges, the psychology of sustainable living, and why relationships, especially those forged across ideological lines, may be our most valuable resource as we face systemic change. Perfect for anyone interested in permaculture, regenerative agriculture, education, and building meaningful alternatives to industrial food systems.

The Shenandoah Permaculture Institute teaches practical, hands-on permaculture with a focus on building healthy, resilient communities. Co-founded by Ryan Blosser and Trevor Piersol, along with Dr. Ted Butchart and Emilie Gooch Tweardy, SPI offers Permaculture Design Courses and workshops that blend ecological knowledge with human-centered design. Their mission is to equip communities with the tools and strategies for health and resilience, from soil to self.

@shenandoahpermaculture

https://www.shenandoahpermaculture.com/

Ashley Fitzgerald sits down with Elizabeth Oldfield to explore how we can foster genuine connection across ideological and cultural divides and why it matters more than ever.

Drawing on Elizabeth’s experience leading the Theos think tank, hosting the acclaimed podcast The Sacred, and living in an intentional community, they discuss the power of combining rigorous research with compelling storytelling to actually shift culture and change minds. They dig into why demanding ideological purity fractures movements and how to build real coalitions across genuine disagreement instead. Elizabeth shares her hard-won insights into the neurobiology of listening, understanding our fight-or-flight responses and the human tendency toward homophily, and how this knowledge can help us create spaces where people can actually hear each other.

The conversation takes a deeper turn as they wrestle with the surprising case for institutions. Even imperfect ones like churches, schools, and intentional communities are essential scaffolding for human flourishing. Elizabeth shares her own journey from childhood cultural Christianity through atheism and back to a grounded, mysterious faith, and reflects on the spiritual hunger she’s been witnessing emerge over the past several years, even among those who thought they’d moved beyond religion.

Throughout, they keep returning to the unglamorous, essential work of showing up locally: sitting on school boards, knowing your neighbors, breaking bread together. In a time of fragmentation and uncertainty, they suggest this might be the most radical and necessary act of all.