Family Law Growth Podcast

What happens when a family law firm hands its case evaluations to someone who isn't an attorney? Tonya Taylor Brown, Director of Client Care at Daniels & Taylor, joins Elliot to share how she built a non-attorney sales role from scratch and turned it into one of the firm's biggest growth drivers.

Tonya walks through her full call structure: setting the agenda, explaining her role, uncovering the emotional side of a case before talking money, and using a simple gas tank analogy to explain how a retainer works. She also shares how she handles questions she can't answer without crossing into legal advice, and why strong follow-up and a steady pipeline matter more than same-day closes.

You'll also hear how she won over attorneys who didn't believe the role could work, what a realistic ramp-up timeline looks like for a new salesperson, and the personal story that helped her win a client deciding between two equally rated firms.

If you're thinking about adding non-attorney sales to your firm, or you want to sharpen the one you already have, this episode is a practical blueprint. Listen on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and YouTube.

Most family law firms set up their CRM backwards. Fifty pipeline stages, a drip sequence for every possible avatar, and still no clear answer on their book rate.This founders episode breaks down how to build a CRM that actually makes you money: get every lead in automatically with real source data, keep your pipeline simple enough to read in minutes, and only automate what you already know works. Plus why you should track your bad leads, how one firm found out it was closing at 2% instead of 10%, and an honest take on Lawmatics vs. HubSpot.

Luis Scott spent 15 years building one of Atlanta's largest personal injury firms before becoming a consultant, author, and coach to law firm owners nationwide. In this episode, he joins Elliot to break down the four phases every firm passes through on the way from $3M to $30M, why marketing usually isn't the real growth problem, and how culture and accountability actually drive retention and revenue. If your firm is stuck on a plateau, this conversation will tell you exactly where to look.

John Cannon grew Cannon & Associates from a rented office to a firm on pace for over $7 million this year, and he's giving away the playbook. In this episode he breaks down how he built an organic content machine before he ever spent a dollar on ads, why he's obsessed with generating reviews (he pays his staff for every one), the exact system his intake team uses to retain, refer, or reject callers, and why he still refuses to let his attorneys give legal advice in a consult. If you're stuck at a revenue plateau and doing too much of the lawyering yourself, this episode has the roadmap to get out.

Every firm says they want high-net-worth clients, but is that actually the right client for your business? Elliot and Erik break down how to find your firm's real best client using your own data, not gut feel or one bad case.

Then they get tactical: how to define a high net worth avatar, what you can afford to spend to acquire one, why your intake process might be losing you six-figure cases, and which marketing channels to start with.

In this episode, Elliot sits down with Rob Leitner, chief of staff at Anderson Dodson/New Leaf Family Law and a fractional CEO who has advised roughly 60 law firms across the country. Rob walks through a live scenario: a $3 million family law firm with a goal to hit $6 million in year one and $12 million the year after.

They start with the financial foundation. What a clean P&L looks like, how to calculate weighted average case value, and the three ratios every owner should track. If you're trying to figure out what it actually takes to go from $3 million to $12 million, this episode is a full playbook. Listen on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and YouTube.

Most law firms think their growth problem is a leads problem. Elliot and Erik break down why that's often wrong, and how to actually diagnose what's stalling your case flips.

They walk through the two most common reasons firms stall out even when marketing looks like it's working: broken intake and sales, and lead tracking gaps that hide way more volume than owners realize.

If you've ever wondered whether more leads will actually fix your growth problem, or if something upstream is quietly capping your results, this one's for you.

In this episode, Elliot sits down with Victoria Collier, founder of Quid Pro Quo Law, to demystify one of the most misunderstood topics in the legal industry — selling your law firm. Victoria breaks down the difference between EBITDA and seller's discretionary earnings, what buyers actually look for, how the MSO model works, and why waiting too long to think about your exit could cost you everything you've built.

Most family law firm owners know their attorneys are not billing enough. What they do not know is why, and it has nothing to do with laziness. Elliot sits down with Molly Kremer, The Billing Coach, to unpack the three biggest billing struggles attorneys face: procrastinating on time entry, under-billing out of guilt, and confusion about cutting time they are not sure they can charge for. Conservatively, these habits add up to 500 or more lost hours per attorney every year. Molly also shares the mindset tools and systems she uses to help timekeepers at firms of all sizes capture more of the time they are already working, without adding more hours to their day. If billing has been a frustration at your firm, this episode is a good place to start.

AI is everywhere, but most of what you're hearing is noise. In this episode, Empirical360 co-founders, Elliot and Erik cut through the hype and share exactly how they're using AI right now to drive real revenue for family law firms. From intake analysis to sales call grading to the AI SEO agencies you should run from, this episode is all signal, no fluff.

Christopher Anderson co-founded New Leaf Family in Colorado in January 2021, growing it to 52+ people and 17 lawyers in under 5 years — built on a few big ideas: eliminating the billable hour, leading with coaching (the "Polaris Process"), starting with paid search over branding, non-attorney salespeople, and a disciplined "buyback your time" framework.

In this episode, Elliot sits down with Attorney Robert Angstadt, managing partner at TampaDivorce.com, who grew his firm from a laptop, 17 clients, and $7,000 in the bank to a five-attorney operation on track to hit $2.5 million this year. Rob shares how he built his referral pipeline from scratch, why he still does free consultations, what his intake-to-close process looks like, and how he balances being in production with running the business — all while protecting family time. If you're an attorney trying to scale without losing your mind, this one's for you.

In this episode, Empirical360 co-founders Elliot and Erik break down the tale of four law firms — what marketing and sales should look like at every stage of growth from zero to $1M, $1M to $5M, $5M to $10M, and beyond.

They cover what to prioritize and what to avoid at each level, from running LSA as a solo to building a full sales team, hiring strategies, and the common mistakes that keep firms stuck.

Whether you're trying to cross seven figures or pushing toward eight, this one lays out the roadmap.

Heather O'Connor went from surviving an abusive marriage to building a $6.5M high-conflict family law firm with 12 attorneys. In this episode, she shares how her personal story became her brand, why non-attorney salespeople protect her team, and the one bad hire that almost derailed everything. Plus, the exact moment she knew she had to choose between being a litigator and being a CEO.

Empirical360 co-founders, Elliot and Erik hold nothing back in this Fun with Founders segment. They break down why copying personal injury intake systems is killing your conversions, how borrowed KPIs from coaching groups can grow you out of business, and whether chasing high-net-worth clients is actually the right play for your firm. Plus—the toxic "screening culture" that's silently repelling the clients you want.

Can a non-attorney really close a $10,000 family law retainer—without the client ever speaking to a lawyer first?

Allyson Swanson does it every day.

In this episode, the Client Acquisition Manager at Hembree Bell Law breaks down exactly how her team—with backgrounds in beauty sales, hot tubs, tech, and teaching—consistently closes family law clients without any legal experience.

Allyson walks through her entire case evaluation process, including:

• The three-option close that gets buy-in before price comes up
• How to handle legal questions without giving legal advice
• Red flags that signal a bad-fit client
• Her 3-week training system for new salespeople

Whether you're considering hiring your first non-attorney salesperson or improving your current intake process, this episode delivers a real-world blueprint from someone who's been on both sides—as a divorce client and as the person helping others through it.

Most family law firms operate without ever knowing whether their marketing and sales efforts are actually working. In this episode of the Family Law Growth Podcast, Elliot and Erik break down the Family Law Sales & Marketing Industry Benchmark Report and explain why benchmarks are the difference between scaling confidently and burning money in the dark.

Listen on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and YouTube.

Get your FREE copy of The Family Law Sales & Marketing Industry Benchmark report: https://marketing.empirical360.com/family-law-sales-marketing-benchmark-report

Hannah Hembree Bell shares the unfiltered truth about growing Hembree Bell Law Firm from a $10,000 loan to a 50-person team. Learn how she hired non-attorney salespeople, transitioned out of practicing law despite her name being on the door, and broke through the revenue plateau that traps most family law firms. If you're struggling to break through your revenue ceiling and delegate, Hannah's "who not how" approach and fail-forward mentality will show you the way out.

Empirical360 founders, Elliot and Erik secretly call family law firms to expose how broken intake processes are costing firms millions. Through live calls, they reveal the shocking mistakes firms make in the first 60 seconds—dropping scary prices, missing empathy cues, and failing to book appointments 90% of the time.

The eye-opening stat: prospects spend just 43 seconds on your website but over 6 minutes on intake calls. Yet most firms are completely dropping the ball at this critical touchpoint.

Listen to real examples of what NOT to do, then hear the right way to handle intake calls. Fixing this one thing can 5X your firm's growth.

If you're burning $150 per lead with low conversion rates, this tactical episode will show you exactly what's going wrong—and how to fix it.

Mark Reel built Inc.'s fastest-growing law firm in America in just 4.5 years—from his one-bedroom apartment to a $20M run rate with 85 employees.

In this episode, Mark shares his unfiltered playbook: the 18-month grind of working every single day without a break, his counterintuitive hiring strategy, and why he pays non-attorneys $120K+ to close cases using an intake system that converts at 80-85%.

He also reveals his biggest failures—like burning $30K on marketing that generated just 2 leads—and the exact tactics he used to break through the "messy middle" that keeps most firms stuck between $500K-$5M.

Whether you're scaling from six to seven figures or seven to eight, this episode is packed with actionable strategies you can implement immediately.