Fund the People: A Podcast with Rusty Stahl

How are you bringing courage and integrity to your leadership right now? What does it take to lead a nonprofit or social movement when the current is pushing hard in the opposite direction? In this inspiring and tactical episode, you’ll get lessons from more than two decades of leadership.

Host Rusty Stahl talks with longtime reproductive justice leader and author Eveline Shen about her book, Choosing to Lead Against the Current. You'll learn Eveline's “Courageous Operating System,” an approach to nonprofit leadership that brings purpose, values, integrity, strengths, success, failure, and other 'assets' into alignment. They explore the courage required to say no, set boundaries, claim power, support leaders, build healthier organizational cultures, resist burnout and despair, and move collectively rather than hunkering down in isolation. Eveline also shares four practices for navigating 'turbulent times': centering, connection, creativity, and change.

Download the transcript in .pdf format: https://drive.google.com/file/d/13kQohE3-PmKvcQPHVgjzO_NRRA67WUMt/view?usp=sharing

About Our Guest: Eveline Shen’s book is “Choosing to Lead Against the Current: The Courageous Operating System for Changemakers – Empowering Leaders to Transform the World with Integrity, Impact, and Purpose.” It was published in August 2025 by North Atlantic Books. A coach and consultant, Eveline primarily works with grassroots and philanthropic leaders of color to step into their power to make change in the social and reproductive justice movements. Shen offers leadership programs, keynotes, coaching, and team-building which include movement, breath, music and engaging activities. Eveline spent more than two decades as a nonprofit founder and Executive Director, helping to build and grow the reproductive justice movement.

Links to Resources:

Eveline's Book & Work:

Book Homepage: https://leadingcourageously.com/book/

Order the book on http://bookshop.org: https://bookshop.org/p/books/choosing-to-lead-against-the-current-the-courageous-operating-system-for-changemakers-empowering-leaders-to-transform-the-world-with-integrity-impac/dd895a116aaaa608?ean=9798889842118&next=t&affiliate=2186

Eveline's professional website: https://leadingcourageously.com/

Eveline's Nonprofit Quarterly interview: https://nonprofitquarterly.org/leading-against-the-current-a-conversation-with-eveline-shen/

Organizations:

Forward Together (national reproductive justice nonprofit where Eveline was Executive Director): https://forwardtogether.org/

Choose 180 (youth-serving nonprofit that established $70,000 salary floor; discussed as example of courageous organizational leadership and going against the current): https://choose180.org/

Fund the People:

Fund the People: https://fundthepeople.org/

Fund the People Podcast: https://www.podpage.com/fund-the-people-a-podcast-with-rusty-stahl/

Get the extended version of this episode! Join FTP Podcast Premium on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/FundThePeople

Relevant FTP Podcast Episodes:

Beyond Capacity: Reimagining Sustainable Leadership in the Social Sector - with Safi Jiroh, LeaderSpring: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/beyond-capacity-reimagining-sustainable-leadership/id1531813289?i=1000704596189

When Staff Thrive, Communities Thrive: A Nonprofit Wage Revolution — with Nneka Payne, CHOOSE 180: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/when-staff-thrive-communities-thrive-a-nonprofit/id1531813289?i=1000686720925

Do Funders Understand the Nonprofit Burnout Crisis? — with Elisha Smith Arrillaga, Center for Effective Philanthropy: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/do-funders-understand-the-nonprofit-burnout-crisis/id1531813289?i=1000676789802

Related FTP Podcast Playlists:

Organizational Culture & Internal Conflict: https://open.spotify.com/playlist/7eFbPtHzzTbJBbk1awjmeA?si=nlbxVuklRyGXGsSTfjSX2A

Burnout & Well-Being: https://open.spotify.com/playlist/6yunZeXi8SOlmlCIFvXhI8?si=iHCT9so1TxGDX_0M_Ryy9A

What does it say about the nonprofit sector when its own employees qualify for the services they provide?

In this episode, you’ll get a candid look at the structures and assumptions that keep nonprofit professionals underpaid and unsupported, along with the questions we need to confront to change them. Elaine Ng, President and CEO of Third Sector New England (TSNE), joins Fund the People’s Rusty Stahl to examine chronic workforce under-investment, unequal relationships with philanthropy, and leadership transitions that leave new leaders expected to fix organizations without the resources to succeed.

Drawing on more than three decades in the sector, Elaine challenges the expectation that meaningful work should be its own reward, asking what rebuilding could look like if communities and the people serving them came first.

Download a PDF of the episode transcript:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1_WTpt6d9RFyC_Y4c4zp3wEdE64npsx4d/view?usp=sharing

About Elaine: https://tsne.org/team/elaine-ng/

Resources mentioned:

Third Sector New England (TSNE): https://tsne.org/

Independent Sector’s Center on the Nonprofit and Philanthropic Workforce: https://independentsector.org/center-on-nonprofit-and-philanthropic-workforce/

Connect with Elaine: https://www.linkedin.com/in/elaine-ng-9430937/

Fund the People Links:

Fund the People website: ⁠⁠⁠⁠https://fundthepeople.org/⁠

Fund the People Podcast: ⁠⁠https://creators.spotify.com/pod/profile/fund-the-people⁠⁠

Join the FTP Podcast Premium community over on Patreon for extended episodes, bonus content, and more: ⁠⁠http://patreon.com/fundthepeople⁠

Related FTP Content:

Upgrading Nonprofit Workplaces: Flourishing with Fewer Hours — with Betsy Leondar-Wright, Ph.D. (Guest Host), Adam Jespersen, and Juliet Schor, Ph.D. : https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/upgrading-nonprofit-workplaces-flourishing-with-fewer/id1531813289?i=1000792358755

A New Era of Philanthropy: Why Funders Must Invest in Nonprofit People — with Dimple Abichandani: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/a-new-era-of-philanthropy-why-funders-must-invest/id1531813289?i=1000749194485

Listening to the Nonprofit Workforce — with Akilah Watkins, Independent Sector: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/upgrading-nonprofit-workplaces-flourishing-with-fewer/id1531813289?i=1000792358755

What happens when fear pushes nonprofits to pull back from their missions, and how can the sector respond?

In this episode, you’ll get a framework for understanding threats to American democracy and how nonprofits and funders can push back while staying true to their missions. Democracy Fund President Joe Goldman joins Fund the People CEO Rusty Stahl to examine four tests for democratic resilience: free and fair elections, the rule of law, communities’ ability to resist abuses of power, and support for leaders and organizations under attack.

Part of FTP’s Defend Nonprofits, Defend Democracy series, Joe argues that retreating in the face of intimidation puts nonprofit independence at greater risk. He urges philanthropy to stand behind the organizations it funds and calls on nonprofits of every mission to reject isolation, build community, and stand together. From legal defense and donor pressure to neighbors helping neighbors, Joe makes the case for collective action rooted in a shared conviction: nonprofits still have the power to defend democracy and shape what comes next.

Download a PDF of the episode transcript: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1lXsbmIHtL693H9XEOQqsVdqNG8guGhPa/view?usp=share_link

About Joe Goldman: https://democracyfund.org/bio/joe-goldman/

Resources mentioned

Joe Goldman, “Hope in the Dark: Four Tests for the Pro-Democracy Movement in 2026,” Nonprofit Quarterly: https://nonprofitquarterly.org/hope-in-the-dark-four-tests-for-the-pro-democracy-movement-in-2026/

“Trump Officials Ramp Up Investigations into Voter Registration Groups,” The New York Times — https://www.nytimes.com/2026/10/07/us/politics/trump-voter-registration-noncitizens-investigation.html

Free Your DAF — https://freeyourdaf.org/#/

Connect with Joe Goldman

Democracy Fund: https://democracyfund.org/

Joe Goldman’s columns in Nonprofit Quarterly: https://nonprofitquarterly.org/series/hope-in-the-dark/

Joe Goldman on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/joepgoldman/

Fund the People Links:

Fund the People website: ⁠https://fundthepeople.org/

Fund the People Podcast: ⁠https://creators.spotify.com/pod/profile/fund-the-people⁠

Join the FTP Podcast Premium community over on Patreon for extended episodes, bonus content, and more: ⁠http://patreon.com/fundthepeople

Related FTP Episodes

Defend Nonprofits, Defend Democracy Series (Spotify Playlist): https://open.spotify.com/playlist/45UnbWYeqzDY9U2DVWDcHm?si=jtviLQ_3RbCuilHzTGpmRQ&pi=i_mnLbmeTjqnk

Level Up: Helping Funders Give More, Faster — with Jodeen Olguín-Tayler, CHANGE Philanthropy: https://open.spotify.com/episode/5fImhmrnZXZ1rhdu3UvSfr?si=8EPlBHbhQhSv07OzDgEuYA

Minnesota Nice, Nonprofit Fierce: Defending the Sector, Midwest Style — with Nonoko Sato, Minnesota Council of Nonprofits: https://open.spotify.com/episode/3RYBKdgY0yqGOwIRmhzkUY?si=f071f110617e4e87

Silence Isolates, Solidarity Shields — with Tonya Allen, McKnight Foundation: https://open.spotify.com/episode/5tpJidVf192lowo6vBMmbo?si=e2e08b26ba0d43ad

What if one of the most powerful ways nonprofits can strengthen their workforce is to make people spend less time at work?

Today's co-host Dr. Betsy Leondar-Wright (Fund the People) introduces the Upgrading Nonprofit Workplaces case studes, which documents how nonprofits are improving job quality and working conditions to increase their impact. This episode focuses on our case study on work time.

Adam Jespersen (Montana Nonprofit Association) describes how his organization moved from pandemic exhaustion to a four-day workweek with no reduction in pay—and why the change has stuck.

Then Dr. Juliet Schor (Boston College and Four Day Week Global) puts the case study into context. Drawing on research involving hundreds of organizations, she discusses what happens to workers, jobs, and organizational performance when work time is reduced.

The episode closes by considering what shorter workweeks could mean for nonprofits in an era of AI-driven productivity gains.

Download the transcript in .pdf format.

Guests:

Adam Jespersen, MBA, became the executive director of the Montana Nonprofit Network after more than a decade of progressive experience in nonprofit leadership.

Betsy Leondar-Wright, PhD, is the Research Director at Fund the People, coordinating the Upgrading Nonprofit Workplaces study. A long-time economic justice advocate, she is the author of Missing Class and a co-author ofIs It Racist? Is It Sexist? andThe Color of Wealth

Juliet Schor, PhD, an economist and professor of sociology at Boston College, is a principal researcher on 4 Day Week Global’s international study of companies implementing four day workweeks. She is author of The Overworked American and The Overspent American, as well as the new book Four Days a Week: The Life-Changing Solution for Reducing Employee Stress, Improving Well-Being, and Working Smarter.

Links to Resources:

Flourishing with Fewer Hours - Fund the People Case Study featuring Montana Nonprofit Association https://fundthepeople.org/case-study-hours-of-work/

Upgrading Nonprofit Workplaces - Research series from Fund the People https://fundthepeople.org/upgrading-nonprofit-workplaces/

Montana Nonprofit Association - Organizational website https://mtnonprofit.org/

Four Days a Week - Book by Dr. Juliet Schor https://www.harpercollins.com/products/four-days-a-week-juliet-schor?variant=43110374866978

The Overworked American book by Dr. Juliet Schor https://www.hachettebookgroup.com/titles/juliet-b-schor/the-overworked-american/9780465054343/?lens=basic-books

The Overspent American - Book by Dr. Juliet Schor: https://www.harpercollins.com/products/the-overspent-american-juliet-b-schor?variant=32154061406242

4 Day Global - International support organization for four-day workweek: https://www.4dayweek.com/

Work Four - The National Campaign for the 4-Day Workweek https://workfour.org/

Doing More With Less: Positive Results of a Four-Day Work Week in the Community Impact Sector - Report by Impact Organizations of Nova Scotia, April 2024 https://ions.ca/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/IONS-Possibility-Brief_Spring-2024.pdf

All Due Respect appearances on the Fund the People Podcast:

From 7% to 107%: Investing in Organizers Supercharges Impact- with Geraldine Alcid (Filipino Advocates for Justice) and Rebecca Gorena (All Due Respect), S9:E16, published 05/06/26, 44 min. https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/from-7-to-107-investing-in-organizers-supercharges/id1531813289?i=1000766550744
Thriving Wages for Community Organizers - with Gaby Hernandez (Oralé), and Kara Park (All Due Respect), S7:E26, published 06/04/25, 53 min. https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/thriving-wages-for-community-organizers/id1531813289?i=1000711155176

Fair Labor Standards for Community Organizers with Kinzie Mabon (All Due Respect) and Kevin Simowitz (All Due Respect), S3:E8, published 11/09/22, 47 min. https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/fair-labor-standards-for-community-organizers-with/id1531813289?i=1000585612468

⁠Download PDF of episode transcript⁠

What does it look like when a major foundation decides that a crisis calls for more than business as usual? Bold but smart!This episode offers amazing insights and inspiration from Brenda Solórzano, President and CEO of The California Endowment. Brenda shares about how philanthropy can respond when nonprofits face rising demand, shrinking resources, and mounting pressure. She discusses how The California Endowment decided to substantially increase its spending, eliminate grantee reporting requirements, accelerate resource flows, and experiment! She explains why the Endowment signed the Level Up pledge and how it's spending the additional funds.

For funders and nonprofit leaders alike, this conversation offers practical ideas for moving from risk-aversion toward responsive partnership. Solórzano discusses what it takes to build trust between foundations and nonprofits; why multi-year funding alone isn't enough; how funders can create relationships where grantees feel safe talking honestly about burnout; and why philanthropy may need to rethink payout. perpetuity, and the business model of foundations. She also makes the case that, rather than simply trying to preserve existing systems, funders can help communities build what comes next.

For a Guest Bio, please click here: https://candid.org/authors/brenda-solorzano/

Key Links to Resources:

Featured Guest & Institution Links:

The California Endowment: https://www.calendow.org

The California Endowment: Increased Spending: https://www.calendow.org/tce-board-approves-increased-spending/

Level Up & CHANGE Philanthropy Links:

Level Up Campaign: https://levelupphilanthropy.org/

CHANGE Philanthropy:https://changephilanthropy.org/https://changephilanthropy.org

CHANGE Philanthropy / Our Work: https://changephilanthropy.org/elementor-397/

Trust-Based Philanthropy Links:

The California Endowment’s Go! Gifts: https://www.calendow.org/gogifts/

Headwaters Foundation of Montana’s Go Grants:https://headwatersfoundation.org/https://www.headwatersmt.org/what-we-fund/go-grants/

Trust-Based Philanthropy Project: https://www.trustbasedphilanthropy.org

CHANGE Philanthropy Member Organizations Links:

Asian American Pacific Islanders in Philanthropy (AAPIP):⁠https://aapip.org⁠

ABFE - A Philanthropic Partnership for Black Communities:⁠https://www.abfe.org⁠

Emerging Practitioners in Philanthropy:⁠https://www.epip.org⁠

Funders for LGBTQ Issues:⁠https://lgbtfunders.org⁠

Hispanics in Philanthropy:⁠https://hipfunds.org⁠

Native Americans in Philanthropy:⁠https://nativephilanthropy.org⁠

National Committee for Responsive Philanthropy:⁠https://ncrp.org⁠

Neighborhood Funders Group:⁠https://nfg.org⁠

Philanthropic Initiative for Racial Equity:⁠https://racialequity.org⁠

Women’s Funding Network:⁠https://www.womensfundingnetwork.org⁠

Fund the People Links:

Fund the People website: https://fundthepeople.org/

Fund the People Podcast: https://creators.spotify.com/pod/profile/fund-the-people

Join the FTP Podcast Premium community over on Patreon for extended episodes, bonus content, and more: http://patreon.com/fundthepeople

Relevant FTP Podcast Episodes Links:

Level Up: Helping Funders Give More, Faster with Jodeen Olguin-Tayler, CHANGE Philanthropy (S10:E01 published 09/09/26) https://www.podpage.com/fund-the-people-a-podcast-with-rusty-stahl/level-up-helping-funders-give-more-faster-with-jodeen-olguin-tayler-change-philanthropy/

Meet the Moment: A Call to Action for Funders with Shaady Salehi, Trust-Based Philanthropy Project (S07:E17 published 04/02/25): https://fundthepeople.org/meet-the-moment/

MacArthur President Chooses Courage, Not Quiet with John Palfrey, MacArthur Foundation (S07:E27 published 06/11/25): https://fundthepeople.org/palfrey/

Do Funders Understand the Nonprofit Burnout Crisis? with Elisha Smith Arrillaga, Center for Effective Philanthropy (S07:E01 published): https://fundthepeople.org/funders-understand/

Synopsis:

In this episode, you’ll learn about a current organizing effort to get institutional funders to ‘level up’ their giving in response to attacks on nonprofits and communities. Host Rusty Stahl speaks with Jodeen Olguín-Tayler (CHANGE Philanthropy) about the Level Up campaign and its three-part pledge, in which funders agree to (1) increase giving for at least two years; (2) move money quickly and equitably to support 'frontline' communities; and (3) share how the commitments are put into practice.

The conversation also explores why increased payout rates matter right now; the role of donor advised funds; protecting racial justice grantmaking; and how funders can learn from one another to overcome internal barriers and turn commitments into action. This Season 10 premiere is an installment of our Defend Nonprofits, Defend Democracy Series. In a companion episode (S10:E2) next week, Brenda Solarzano shares why The California Endowment signed the Level Up pledge, and how its moving money in response to the current crisis.

Download transcript .pdf: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ZpRvZ_zQQQkPSyX9t4FL0Uka0OcQgcAP/view?usp=sharing

Guest Bio:

Jodeen Olguín-Tayler (she/ella) is Director of Programs and Campaigns at CHANGE Philanthropy, where she supports the Level Up Campaign. Jodeen has served in executive roles in philanthropy, business, and nonprofits for over 20 years with a focus on democracy and an economy rooted in racial and gender equity. Her board service has included Movement Voter Fund, Poder Latinx, Chicana Empowerment Fund, Inclusive Democracy and Climate Equity Fund, and Movement Strategy Center. Her staff leadership has included the National Domestic and MoveOn. Full bio: https://changephilanthropy.org/about/team/.

Essential Links:

Level Up Campaign: http://levelupphilanthropy.org

Level Up Campaign email: levelup@changephilanthropy.org

CHANGE Philanthropy: https://changephilanthropy.org/

Fund the People: http://fundthepeople.org

Fund the People Podcast: https://creators.spotify.com/pod/profile/fund-the-people

Fund the People Podcast Premium on Patreon: http://patreon.com/fundthepeople

Key Resources from the Episode:

Racial Equity Advancement and Defense Initiative: https://www.abfe.org/racial-equity-advancement-and-defense-initiative-readi

Free Your Donor Advised Fund (DAF) website: http://freeyourdaf.org

CHANGE Philanthropy Member Organizations:

Asian American Pacific Islanders in Philanthropy (AAPIP): https://aapip.org/

ABFE - A Philanthropic Partnership for Black Communities: https://www.abfe.org/

Emerging Practitioners in Philanthropy: https://www.epip.org/

Funders for LGBTQ Issues: https://lgbtfunders.org/

Hispanics in Philanthropy: https://hipfunds.org/

Native Americans in Philanthropy: https://nativephilanthropy.org/

National Committee for Responsive Philanthropy: https://ncrp.org/

Neighborhood Funders Group: https://nfg.org/

Philanthropic Initiative for Racial Equity: https://racialequity.org/

Women’s Funding Network: https://www.womensfundingnetwork.org/

Relevant FTP Podcast Episodes:

How Nonprofits Fight Back Against Today’s Biggest Federal Threats w/ Sarah Saadian, National Council of Nonprofits (S9 Summer Bonus, 07.08.26) https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/how-nonprofits-fight-back-against-todays-biggest-federal/id1531813289?i=1000775935067

‘Silence Isolates, Solidarity Shields’ w/ Tonya Allen, McKnight Foundation (S8:E07, 11.05.25) - https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/silence-isolates-solidarity-shields-with-tonya-allen/id1531813289?i=100073541767

Meet the Moment: A Call to Action for Funders w/ Shaady Salehi, Trust-Based Philanthropy Project (S7:E17, 04.02.25) - https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/meet-the-moment-a-call-to-action-for-funders/id1531813289?i=1000701886889

Want additional relevant episodes? Add our Defend Nonprofits, Defend Democracy Playlist to your Spotify library: https://open.spotify.com/playlist/45UnbWYeqzDY9U2DVWDcHm?si=_KJDjjPpSIKNUdiUIhuDnA

Hi everybody – this is Rusty Stahl, CEO of Fund the People and host of your Fund the People Podcast. Season 10 starts next Wednesday, September 9th. New episodes will be available every Wednesday throughout the fall.

So I wanted to say a quick hello to get you ready!

As you probably know, Fund the People is the only national organization dedicated entirely to increasing investment in America's nonprofit workforce.

Our podcast equips YOU to invest in the nonprofit workforce! Whatever your role in the sector, we provide you with the ideas, research, tools, and leading voices you need to hear in order to invest in the nonprofit people around you!

Why does this matter? Because there's a chronic deficit of investment in the nonprofit workforce, which has undermined the effectiveness and impact of the sector for decades. But when nonprofits have the funding and incentive to invest in their people, they can dramatically increases the performance, results, and sustainability!

During the current era of political attacks, federal funding cuts; heightened levels of burnout, churn-out, and crisis across the nonprofit sector, investing in nonprofit people is an even more essential strategy to save nonprofit jobs, services, and organizations. Which means it’s time for all of us to learn the art of talent-investing.

Thankfully we’re making that easier than ever.

As we enter our seventh year of podcasting, the show just keeps getting better and better. More incredible guests. More real talk. More hard-hitting coverage of our sector's workforce issues. In fact, our guests are so great that the show is now ranked # EIGHT on the top list of 100 Best Nonprofit Podcasts in the U.S (FeedSpot).

This fall, Season 10 brings you even more wisdom and practical resources from across the sector. So come "find your people" on Fund the People: bee sure to subscribe, listen or watch, and share the show!

As nonprofits navigate the aggressively hostile political and policy environment of the current federal administration, communications strategist Vanessa Wakeman argues that organizations need more than legal and financial preparedness.

In this special summer bonus episode, you’ll learn about “narrative resilience,” - a term and concept developed by Wakeman. Learn how nonprofits – and their funders – can strengthen public trust; counter harmful storylines; and build lasting communications infrastructure that helps defend both the nonprofit sector and democracy itself.

View and download a .pdf transcript of this episode – https://drive.google.com/file/d/1_GMmCxBhbrIWcOQ5y5e1YzIk-ARBIe8W/view?usp=sharing

Guest Bio:

An accomplished leader with deep knowledge about the politics of social change and mastery at advancing the efforts of values-driven organizations, Vanessa is a trusted advisor to organizations around the globe. She has been successfully leading initiatives to support communications for nonprofits, socially responsible companies and other stakeholder groups since she founded The Wakeman Agency in 2003.

Vanessa helps clients to build and restore trust with internal and external audiences, to develop ongoing communications that strengthen organizational positioning and amongst key audiences. Vanessa has increasingly been called upon by a host of organizations to help them reimagine their values, culture and operations through the lens of justice, equity, diversity and inclusion. Her approach to communications uses behavioral science practices to shift perceptions and behaviors.

Links

Resources:

The Wakeman Agency – Strategic communications firm serving nonprofits, foundations, and mission-driven organizations. https://www.thewakemanagency.com/

Narrative Resilience Program – Consulting and assessment program for nonprofits, available for individual organizations or cohorts, including foundation-sponsored cohorts. https://www.thewakemanagency.com/expertise/narrative-resilience-program/

The Wakeman Agency Insights – Articles and thought leadership explaining Narrative Resilience and communications strategy. https://www.thewakemanagency.com/insights/

Social Change Diaries podcast - https://www.thewakemanagency.com/the-social-change-diaries/

Social Change Diaries episode with Rusty Stahl – “Rusty Stahl’s Radical Vision for a Transformed Nonprofit World” from November 2018 – https://www.thewakemanagency.com/insights/rusty-stahls-radical-vision-for-a-transformed-nonprofit-workforce-development/

Contact Guest:

Vanessa Wakeman on linkedin – https://www.linkedin.com/in/vanessawakeman

Wakeman Agency on linkedin – https://www.linkedin.com/company/the-wakeman-agency

Relevant Episodes:
S9 Bonus – Sarah Saadian (National Council of Nonprofits) – https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/how-nonprofits-fight-back-against-todays-biggest-federal/id1531813289?i=1000775935067

S9:E13 – The Value of the Nonprofit Workforce (Part 2) – ⁠https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/economy-the-unique-value-of-the-u-s-nonprofit-workforce-2-of-3/id1531813289?i=1000761500707⁠

S9:E18 – Vu Le (Nonprofit AF) – https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/anger-hope-funding-and-the-future-of-nonprofits/id1531813289?i=1000768714659

Sarah Saadian of the National Council of Nonprofits explains how the Trump Administration policies are reshaping the nonprofit sector through a three-pronged effort to cut-off funding, silence organizations, and erode trust in nonprofits—and why these threats affect every nonprofit, regardless of mission. She shares practical ways nonprofit leaders can take action together to defend civil society, strengthen nonprofit advocacy, and protect the communities they serve.

Promo Video for this Episode: https://youtu.be/LmjA_DsErPQ

Download a .pdf of the transcript of the episode:

Transcript of Audio Version: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1y0sOKOxON29a-IRA6T3xGBGUqiUep1zj/view?usp=sharing

Transcript of Video Version: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1F3WG1qNKqerTrDwu8hyNa1xzfMx9klrq/view?usp=sharing

Guest Bio:

Sarah Saadian is Senior Vice President of Public Policy and Campaigns with the National Council of Nonprofits. She has more than fifteen years of experience with national advocacy campaigns and has successfully advanced federal policies on Capitol Hill. Prior to joining NCN, Sarah served at the National Low Income Housing Coalition, Enterprise Community Partners and Rapoza Associates. She graduated from the University of Connecticut School of Law after receiving her bachelor’s degree from the University of Virginia, and she is a member of the Virginia State Bar.

Essential Links:

Rusty’s Call to Action YouTube Video⁠: ⁠Just Say NO to a Fake Nonprofit Pledge of Allegiance to President Trump - https://youtu.be/3Sz8zs35bMw?si=CKLrz2MquMvnI8n1⁠

NCN Resource and Action Page on Proposed Regulations: https://www.councilofnonprofits.org/articles/take-action-july-13-oppose-sweeping-changes-federal-grantmaking

NCN’s Chart of Proposed Regulations: https://www.councilofnonprofits.org/files/media/documents/2026/2026-chart-omb-uniform-proposed-changes.pdf

NCN’s Guide for Submitting Your Public Comments: https://www.councilofnonprofits.org/files/media/documents/2026/2026-proposed-omb-uniform-guidance-comment-guide.pdf

Add Your Organization to the National Letter: https://www.councilofnonprofits.org/form/national-letter-to-protect-and-s

Email Your Member of Congress: https://ujoin.co/campaigns/4287/actions/public?action_id=6970

NCN website: https://www.councilofnonprofits.org/

NCN’s Nonprofit Champion Newsletter - free biweekly updates on local, state, and federal policy and advocacy issues affecting nonprofits: https://www.councilofnonprofits.org/newsletter-archive

Sarah's LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sarah-saadian-495933b/

NCN's LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/national-council-of-nonprofits/posts/?feedView=all

Fund the People website: http://www.fundthepeople.org

Related Episodes:

Defend Nonprofits, Defend Democracy Series (A Playlist on Spotify - free Spotify account required): https://open.spotify.com/playlist/45UnbWYeqzDY9U2DVWDcHm?si=JqbTljbcSEqJZo3C6wPRhw

The Federal Policy & Propaganda Landscape Facing the Nonprofit Workforce in 2026 (S9:E11, 04/01/26): https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-federal-policy-propaganda-landscape-facing/id1531813289?i=1000758617691

The Trump War on Charity (S8:E1, 09/24/25):

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-trump-war-on-charity/id1531813289?i=1000728221229

Defend Nonprofits, Defend the Social Safety Net - with Edward Hershey (S7:E25, 05/28/25): https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/defend-nonprofits-defend-the-social-safety-net/id1531813289?i=1000710317394
Silence Isolates, Solidarity Shields - with Tonya Allen, McKnight Foundation (S8:E7, 11/05/25): https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/silence-isolates-solidarity-shields-with-tonya-allen/id1531813289?i=1000735417671
When Politicians Call Nonprofits “Thugs” and “Sleazebags,” What Will You Do? (S7:E6, 01/15/25): https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/when-politicians-call-nonprofits-thugs-and-sleazebags/id1531813289?i=1000684096236

#DefendNonprofits #DefendDemocracy #FundThePeople

Vu Le is our guest for the Season Nine Finalé, which also serves as an installment of our ongoing Defend Nonprofits, Defend Democracy Series. Recorded with a live zoom audience during our spring webinar series, Vu discusses his burnout, funding instability, philanthropy’s power dynamics, and what it will take to strengthen nonprofits in an era of rising authoritarianism. Vu argues that nonprofits and funders must stop normalizing scarcity, invest deeply in leaders and infrastructure, and organize collectively for long-term change.

Drawing from his new book Reimagining Nonprofits and Philanthropy, Vu challenges conventional assumptions about fundraising, nonprofit leadership, and philanthropy itself. The conversation explores why progressive movements struggle to sustain leaders, how conservative leadership infrastructure has been built strategically over decades, and what nonprofit professionals can do right now to protect democracy and each other.

Download a transcript of the episode

About Our Guest

Vu Le is a prominent writer, speaker, and former executive director of Seattle-based Rainier Valley Corps. Widely recognized for his irreverent, no-nonsense approach to social justice and philanthropy, he authors the viral blogNonprofit AF, and is a co-founder of the Community-Centric Fundraising movement. Most recently he is author of the book, Reimagining Nonprofits and Philanthropy. In 2020, Vu was our first guest on the Fund the People: A Podcast with Rusty Stahl.

Suggested Links:

Vu Le’s Blog, Nonprofit AF

Reimagining Nonprofits and Philanthropy (Book)

The Sally Covington Report (Moving a Public Policy Agenda: The Strategic Philanthropy of Conservative Foundations)

Community-Centric Fundraising

Nonprofits Are Message with Joan Garry - Episode 251 with Vu

Trust-Based Philanthropy Project

National Council of Nonprofits

Independent Sector

Bolder Advocacy

Rules of the Game Podcast (Note: Rusty misstated the name of the podcast in the recording. The correct name provided here)

Solidaire Network

Fund the People

Fund the People Webinar Series

Related Fund the People Podcast Episodes:

S1:E1 — Vu Le: Treating Nonprofit People Like Batteries - The very first FTP podcast episode, revisited in this conversation, on burnout, scarcity, and nonprofit workforce culture.

In this installment of our Defend Nonprofits Defend Democracy Series, you’ll get a deep dive into one of the least-discussed but most important democracy issues facing nonprofits and philanthropy today: attacks on ballot initiatives and direct democracy. Elizabeth DiLauro of the Robert Wood Johnson Foundation joins Rusty Stahl to discuss how ballot measures have become critical tools for advancing health equity and why efforts to restrict citizen-led initiatives threaten both democracy and the nonprofit sector.

Liz shares how RWJF is funding organizations defending ballot access in multiple states, helping other funders understand the legal pathways for engagement, and why funders using their public voice matters as much as their grantmaking right now. The conversation also explores democratic backsliding, gerrymandering, philanthropy’s role in this moment, and why protecting democratic participation is foundational to every social justice mission.

Download the edited transcript as a .pdf

Guest Bio:

Elizabeth DiLauro serves as a Senior Policy Officer with the Robert Wood Johnson Foundation, where she shapes strategy and grantmaking at the state level to advance long-term change in the social policies that impact our nation’s health and well-being.

Previously, Liz served as the senior director of advocacy at ZERO TO THREE, where she led the organization’s advocacy strategy to advance a policy agenda for young children and families. Earlier in her career, Liz worked with the Pew Charitable Trusts where she crafted state campaigns to increase access to children’s dental care, and the American Academy of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry where she advanced strategies to support children’s mental health policy. She has also worked in federal and state advocacy with Home Instruction for Parents of Preschool Youngsters (HIPPY) USA.

Liz holds a Master of Public Administration from the Robert F. Wagner Graduate School of Public Service at New York University, with a specialization in public and non-profit policy and management.

Links to Resources Mentioned in the Episode

Organizations:

Robert Wood Johnson Foundation (RWJF)

Ballot Initiative Strategy Center Foundation

Fairness Project Education Fund

Bolder Advocacy (program of Alliance for Justice)

Fund the People

Reports, Publications, Events, and Tools:

Rules of the Game Podcast⁠ (Bolder Advocacy, a program of Alliance for Justice)

Foundations on the Hill (policy conference and Capitol Hill visits for the foundations and philanthropy infrastructure organizations)

Answering the Call for a Healthy, Inclusive Democracy - Annual Letter (April 2026) by Dr. Rich Besser, President, Robert Wood Johnson Foundation

All By April (a 501c3 campaign hosted by Democracy Fund)

In this episode (S9:E16), you’ll hear compelling evidence that investing in nonprofit workers isn’t a distraction from program results—it actually supercharges impact!

Burnout is widespread in the nonprofit sector, particularly in social justice groups. But it doesn’t have to be. Our guests share their research, experience, and thinking, based on a cohort of Northern California nonprofits working with All Due Respect to improve working conditions for organizers in their ranks. Geraldine and Rebecca vividly describe how better pay, stronger systems, and a culture of wellness can significantly improve job quality, employee retention -- and program results. Download an edited transcript in .pdf format

Our Guests:

Geraldine Alcid is Executive Director of Filipino Advocates for Justice (FAJ). Established in 1973 in response to the discrimination and alienation faced by Filipino immigrant newcomers, FAJ builds a strong Filipino community by organizing constituents, developing leaders, providing services, and advocating for just policies. Geraldine is also a founder and leads FAJ’s sibling 501C4 organization, FAJ Action Fund, established in 2022. She was born in Makati, Philippines, grew up in Chicago, IL. and currently lives in Oakland, CA.

Rebecca Gorena (she/ella) is Senior Program Director at All Due Respect. She is a community advocate and campaign manager with over 14 years of experience across states and social justice sectors. Rebecca has led organizing and policy campaigns across many issues with an emphasis on developing the skills and autonomy of the organizers she works alongside. This has resulted in her passion for building stronger movement spaces and leaders.

Links to Resources

Key Reports & Tools:

⁠Shared Guidelines: A Commitment to Bay Area Organizers⁠ (Report from All Due Respect)

⁠People Power Movements: Lessons from FAJ’s Deep Wellness Project⁠ (Report from All Due Respect)

⁠Youth Organizing in the Bay Area: An Exploration of Organizational Labor Standards⁠ (Report from All Due Respect)

⁠Sustainable Jobs Toolkit⁠ (Online toolkit from All Due Respect + Staffing the Mission)

⁠Upgrading Nonprofit Workplaces 2026 Case Study Series⁠ (Research from Fund the People)

Guest's and Host's Organizations:

All Due Respect (ADR) website

Filipino Advocates for Justice (FAJ) website

FAJ on Facebook

FAJ on Instagram

Fund the People (FTP) website

FTP on LinkedIn

FTP Mailing List

Related Networks & Partners Mentioned:

RYSE Center

AAPIs for Civic Empowerment (FORCE)

California Domestic Worker Coalition

East Bay Community Foundation

National Domestic Workers Alliance

Power California

Additional FTP Episodes with All Due Respect:

Thriving Wages for Community Organizers (S7:E6) – with Kara Park (All Due Respect) and Gabby Hernandez (Orale)

Fair Labor Standards for Community Organizers (S3:E8) – with Kevin Simowitz and Kinzie Mabon (All Due Respect)

More Relevant FTP Episodes:

The Guru of Burnout (S1:E10) – with Dr. Christina Maslach, Professor Emerita, University of California Berkeley⁠

⁠Using Capacity-Building Grants for People-Systems (S2 Bonus Episode) - with Andrea Frye, People’s Action (Bonus Episode)⁠

HowFunders Can Support Nonprofit Workers in the Age of Burnout, Part 1 (S6:E1) - with Jamie Allison, Walter and Elise Haas Fund

New Study: Cost of Low Wages in Youth-Serving Nonprofits (S7:E22) – with Madison Holland, The Prosperity Initiative

What does it take to move from talking about racial equity to practicing it—inside philanthropy and across the nonprofit sector? In this episode, you’ll get visionary and pragmatic guidance on how funders and nonprofits can close the gap between intention and action. Rusty speaks with Kaci Patterson, Founder of Social Good Solutions and the Black Equity Collective. Kaci shares how her work brings funders and Black-led organizations together to build relationships, trust, and unding strategies that are rooted in community.

The conversation also digs into the economic and social impact of Black community organizations, the persistent under-funded/under-capacity paradox faced by these organizations, and the urgent opportunity facing philanthropy. As the DEI backlash and public sector staffing cuts disproportionately impact Black women, Kaci argues that philanthropy has a choice: retreat to old habits or invest boldly in a stronger, more equitable nonprofit workforce. This episode offers both a clear-eyed critique and a hopeful path forward—grounded in relationships, mutuality, shared leadership, and long-term sustainability.

Download an edited transcript.pdf⁠of episode

About Our Guest:

Kaci is Founder and Chief Architect of Social Good Solutions (SGS), a Black woman-owned and operated boutique social impact consulting firm. Kaci also serves as Founder and Chief Architect of the Black Equity Collective, housed within Social Good Solutions.

Kaci launched SGS in 2014 after nearly 18 years of working in the nonprofit and philanthropic sectors. Always with an eye toward human and community development, SGS works with philanthropic institutions, nonprofit organizations, and public agencies to design, operationalize and manage racial justice initiatives from concept to implementation. The firm’s expertise is operationalizing equity, demonstrating what’s possible in philanthropy and creating new standards for equity-centered practices in the field. Since 2014, SGS has raised and leveraged over $86 million (and counting!) for Black-led organizations in California!

Links & Resources:

Kaci Patterson & Her Work:

• Social Good Solutions
• Black Equity Collective
• A Guide for Pursuing Black Equity & Racial Justice in Philanthropic Initiatives and Government Systems

Research & Data Mentioned:

• The Economic Contributions of California Black-Led Organizations, May 20, 2025, published by the Black Equity Collective and Nonprofit Finance Fund
• Black-led Nonprofits Didn’t See the Lasting Funding Boosts Promised After 2020’s Racial Reckoning, by James Pollard, April 7, 2026, Associated Press
• ⁠Candid + ABFE report on funding for Black-led nonprofits⁠

• Black Women Suffered Large Employment Losses in 2025—Particularly Among College Graduates and Public-Sector Workers, by Valerie Wilson, February 10, 2026, Economic Policy Institute

Related Organizations & Context:

• BLACC (Building Leaders and Cultivating Change) Fund (at Liberty Hill Foundation)
• ABFE - A Philanthropic Partnership for Black Communities (formerly the Association of Black Foundation Executives)
• Grantmakers for Effective Organizations (GEO)
• California Community Foundation
• Liberty Hill Foundation
• Aspen Institute Civil Society Fellowship

Fund the People Resources:

• Fund the People
• Fund the People’s Talent Justice Research and Tools⁠
• ⁠Fund the People Premium Podcast on Patreon⁠

Fund the People's podcast is available on all platforms. Here are links where most people listen or watch:

• Apple Podcasts
• Spotify
• YouTube video feed or audio-only feed
• PodPage

Similar Episodes:

• Funding Advocacy for Racial Equity in a Hostile Climate – with Dr. Giridhar Mallya, Robert Wood Johnson Foundation
• Coaching Black Women Leaders in White Nonprofit Spaces - with Kelli King-Jackson Coach and Consultant
• Racial & Generational Barriers in Nonprofit Careers - with Frances Kunreuther and Sean Thomas-Breitfeld, Building Movement Project
• Funding Black Leaders to Prevent Burnout - with Dany Sigwalt, Power Shift Network

In this episode, you'll get a clear, concise, and cogent argument for the unique value of the U.S. nonprofit workforce, with a specific focus on how nonprofit workers contribute to democratic participation and self-governance. Host Rusty Stahl discusses five ways this value manifests:

• ​Bringing the First Amendment to life
• ​Delivering services to citizens on behalf of government
• ​Advocating to government for the public interest
• ​Last bulwarks of democracy
• ​Engines of civic participation

This is the third installment in our three-episode miniseries on the Unique Value of the U.S. nonprofit workforce. The first installment focused on our contributions to American community. The second focused on our contributions to the American economy. (You can find links to the prior installments below.) Taken together, we have a powerful picture of how the nonprofit contributes to American society

It's worth noting that, in this framing the 'third sector' contributes mightily to the first sector (the public sector, or government) and the second sector (the private sector, or business).

Download a transcript in .pdf format.

Relevant Episodes:

• ​The Unique Value of the U.S. Nonprofit Workforce - Part 1 of 3
• ​The Unique Value of the U.S. Nonprofit Workforce - Part 2 of 3
• ​S1:E4 - Lester Salamon (including this episode because at about minute 9 and 54 seconds, Dr. Salamon discussed how the federal government massively 'outsources' the delivery of its programs and services to 'third parties', many of which are nonprofits)

In this episode, host Rusty Stahl makes the economic case for valuing the nonprofit workforce—nearly 13 million workers powering 10% of the U.S. private workforce. Drawing on fresh data, he reveals how nonprofits create jobs, stabilize communities during crises, and fuel broader economic growth. If policymakers and funders overlook this workforce, they’re missing one of the most significant economic forces in the country.

This is Part 2 of our 3-part miniseries on the value of the nonprofit workforce! In the first episode of the miniseries, Rusty makes a passionate plea for everyone to discuss the value of the nonprofit workforce, and then addresses how nonprofit workers bring value of their communities. Part 3 of the miniseries will discuss the value of the nonprofit workforce for our democracy.

Links to Resources:

• ​5 Surprising Facts about the U.S Nonprofit Workforce⁠
• ​CalNonprofits 2019 Causes Count Report

Subscribe to Fund the People's YouTube Channel.

• FTP PodcastAudioon YouTube
• FTP Podcast Video on Youtube
• ​FTP Podcast Video Clips

George Mason University:

• ​Nonprofit Employment Data (NED) Project
• ​2024 Nonprofit Employment Data Report⁠​⁠ (national data on nonprofit wages)
• Spotlight on Nonprofit Wages (nonprofit wages by sub-sector)
• Nonprofit Employment in the States, 2017-2022 (nonprofit wages by region)
• ​Nonprofit Works Interactive Online Database (explore nonprofit wages by geographic area, sub-sector, and in comparison to for-profit and government)

Relevant Episodes:

• ​The Unique Value of the U.S. Nonprofit Workforce - Part 1 (S9:E12, April 8, 2026, 22 minutes)
• ​Making the Nonprofit Workforce Visible - with Dr. Alan Abramson and Chelsea Newhouse, George Mason University (S7:E24, May 21, 2025, 42 minutes)
• ​The Power of the Nonprofit Workforce - with Dr. Lester Salamon, Johns Hopkins University (S1:E4, October 16, 2020, 52 minutes)

“Nonprofit workers are an unspoken part of our social contract.”

Why do we need to explicitly talk about the value of the nonprofit workforce—especially to people already working within it?

In this opening episode of a three-part series, Rusty Stahl argues that the nonprofit workforce has long been overlooked in public policy, media narratives, and even within the sector itself. Drawing on insights following Foundations on the Hill 2026, he highlights how nonprofit workers are frequently excluded from major policy debates—even when those policies directly impact their jobs and communities.

Rusty challenges the dominant “deficit-based” framing of the nonprofit workforce, which focuses on what workers lack, and instead calls for a shift toward an “asset-based” narrative that recognizes the sector’s immense contributions.

The episode then explores the first dimension of value: community. From meeting basic needs to enabling generosity and envisioning better futures, nonprofit workers are essential to the functioning, resilience, and cohesion of communities across the country.

In the next episodes of this miniseries:

• Part 2: The value of the nonprofit workforce to the U.S. economy
• Part 3: The value of the nonprofit workforce to democracy and liberty

If this episode resonated with you:

• Share it with a colleague, funder, or policymaker
• Leave a review of our show on Apple Podcasts or a comment on Spotify
• Start conversations in your network about the value of the nonprofit workforce

Resources & Links

• Download an edited .pdf transcript of this episode
• Fund the People:https://fundthepeople.org
• Email Rusty: rusty@fundthepeople.org

Related Episodes

• S9:E11 - The Federal Policy & Propaganda Landscape Facing the Nonprofit Workforce in 2026
• ⁠S8:E1 - The Trump War on Charity
• ⁠S7:E4 - Making the Nonprofit Workforce Visible - with Dr. Alan Abrahmson and Chelsea Newhouse, George Mason University⁠

In this episode, you get a firsthand report from "Foundations on the Hill." Rusty discusses emerging federal threats and opportunities for our sector. From new legislation to executive action, he shares what’s at stake for the nonprofit workforce—and why we must engage now to shape the narrative.

• Downloadepisode⁠ transcript
• Watch episodePromo Video

Links to Information Discussed:

Challenges on the Horizon

Reintroduction of H.R. 9495 (H.R. 6800 and S. 3554):

•

Press Release: ⁠Cornyn, Sheehy Introduce Bill to Revoke Tax-Exempt Status of CAIR, Groups Bankrolling Terrorists⁠ (Senator John Cornyn)

•

⁠Official Text of H.R. 6800⁠

•

⁠Official Text of S. 3554⁠

•

Press Release: ⁠Nonprofit Killer Bill Re-Introduced in the House and Senate⁠ (Charity and Security Network)

SPONSOR Act (S. 3942):

•

Press Release: Moran, Cruz Introduce Legislation to Deter Non-Profit Sponsorships of Left-Wing Radicals (Congressman Nathaniel Moran)

•

Official Text of the Bill from congress.gov

Executive Actions to Frame & Investigate Nonprofits as Terrorist Supporters:

Investigating Nonprofits as Terrorist Supporting Organizations:

• National Security Presidential Memorandum (NSPM-7) (The White House)
• Attorney General Memo - “Implementing NSPM-7: Countering Domestic Terrorism and Organized Political Violence - (Office of the Attorney General)
• FBI and IRS to investigate nonprofit groups for domestic terrorism links, sources say (CBS News)
• FBI and IRS join forces under Bondi directive (MS Now)
• How NSPM-7 Seeks to Use "Domestic Terrorism" to Target Nonprofits and Activists (ACLU)

Administration imposes ideological bounds on student debt forgiveness for public servants:

• Overview of Proposed Changes and Updates on PSLF program (National Council of Nonprofits)
• Finalized Changes and Litigation (National Council of Nonprofits)
• Education Department Imposes Controversial New Restrictions on Public Service Loan Forgiveness Program (American Association of Universities)

Administration pursues ideological litmus test for federal grants:

• DOGE Takes Over Federal Grant Website (NonProfit Times)
• Proposed Changes to Federal Grant Portal Could Disrupt Nonprofits and Harm Communities Nationwide (National Council of Nonprofits)
•

Guide to Submitting Public Comments on Changes to Federal Grants Certification (National Council of Nonprofits) Note: public comment period ended 3/30/26. 1,300 nonprofit groups joined the sign-on letter, and 22,000 submitted public comments! Apparently there will be further opportunities to offer public comment, so this info is worth reviewing!

Positive Developments

Philanthropy Caucus Launched in House of Representatives:

•

Press Release from Congressman Blake Moore (DATE)

Small Nonprofit Retirement Security Act (H.R. 4548 / S. 2365):

•

Press Release: Buchanan Leads Bipartisan Effort to Help Small Nonprofits Offer Retirement Plans (07/21/25)

•

Official Text of H.R. 4548

•

Official Text of S. 2365

Educating Policymakers About the Nonprofit Workforce:

•

Five Surprising Facts About the Nonprofit Workforce (FTP hand-out for Congress)

NEW: Johnson Amendment Upheld:

•

Since recording this episode, news arrived that a court has upheld the Johnson Amendment, maintaining nonprofit separation from political campaigns and donations

Organizations Mentioned in the Episode:

•

Council on Foundations

•

Foundations on the Hill 2026

•

Fund the People

•

Independent Sector

•

National Council of Nonprofits

•

Philanthropy Roundtable

•

United Philanthropy Forum

Additional Links:

•

Council on Foundations

•

Foundations on the Hill 2026

•

Fund the People

•

Independent Sector

•

National Council of Nonprofits

•

Philanthropy Roundtable

•

United Philanthropy Forum

Related Episodes:

•

Peaceful Terrorists and Violent Activists (S9:E1, January 2026)

•

The Trump War on Charity (S8:E1, September 2025)

•

Mr. Stahl Goes to Washington (S7:E13, March 2025)

•

Nonprofits Made America (S7:E11, February 2025)

Related Playlists:

• Defend Nonprofits, Defend Democracy Series Playlist
• Host-Only Episodes Playlist

•
Rusty’s Rants and Reflections Playlist

In this episode, you’ll get a bold, provocative new idea for investing in the nonprofit workforce—and why it may be essential to the sector’s survival. We all know that restricted project support doesn't empower nonprofits to invest in their staff. But, we argue, general operating support isn't up to this task either. Staff Operating Support (SOS) offers a new way that funders and fundraisers can strategically, responsively move money to support the workforce of grantee organizations.

We introduced the idea of Staff Operating Support during Season 8 (see link to the episode below) . Today's conversation, drawn from a webinar on March 12, 2026, builds on the previous one as Rusty Stahl presents updated thinking, including the 7 key traits of S.O.S. funding. This episode also features a silo-busting panel and audience of funders, nonprofit leaders, and intermediaries, sharing enthusiasm, critiques, questions, and additional ideas about S.O.S. funding.

Host Rusty Stahl is joined by Co-Host Annie Chang (Nonprofit Finance Fund). Rusty defines Staff Operating Support, and shares seven key traits of the concept. Annie and a panel of nonprofit of respondents unpack the ‘compounding crises’ in the nonprofit sector’s workforce —and explore what it will take to proactively address it. Alongside Annie, the panelists are Janelle Moravek Miller (Youth and Family Counseling), Maria Cabildo, The Durfee Foundation, and Kim Almeida (Levi Strauss Foundation).

From new research data to real-world results, this episode makes the case that funding staff isn’t overhead—it’s mission-critical.

• S.O.S. Funding Concept Info Hub - Fund the People
• How to Support Nonprofit Worker Well-Being - Nonprofit Finance Fund
• Financial Insecurity in the Nonprofit Workforce - Independent Sector and United Way (wiht link to "ALICE" in the Nonprofit Workforce report)
• Durfee Foundation's Sabbatical Program - The Durfee Foundation
• Well-Being and Equity as a Business Imperative research report - Levi Strauss Foundation and Harvard T.H. Chan School of Public Health

• Introducing Staff Operating Support (S.O.S.) Grants Concept⁠ with host Rusty Stahl, Fund the People
• Chasm Grows between Funder and Nonprofit Perceptions of Crisis - with Elisha Smith Arrillaga, Center for Effective Philanthropy
• Donors Invest in Health Nonprofit’s Staff -- with Dramatic Program Results - with Janelle Miller Moravek, Youth and Family Counseling
• Funding Nonprofit People & Possibility: Inside the Durfee Foundation - with Maria Cabildo, The Durfee Foundation

Why do private foundations give away so little of their wealth each year—and how does that affect nonprofits and the people who work in them? Especially as the Trump Administration's War on Charity continues to rage?

Rusty Stahl talks with Glen Galaich, author of the new book ⁠Control: Why Big Giving Falls Short⁠, about philanthropy’s culture of control, the limits of the 5% payout model, and what foundations could do differently to support nonprofit organizations and their workforce.

Download the transcript of this episode in .PDF format

Guest Bio: Glen Galaich is author of the new book, Control: Why Big Giving Falls Short. He is CEO of the Stupki Foundation, a private spend-down foundation based in the Bay Area. Glen hosts (or co-hosts, depending on the day) the Break Fake Rules Podcast. Click here to learn more about Glen.
Links to Resources:

• Stupski Foundation
• Control: Why Big Giving Falls Short
• Break Fake Rules Podcast
• Rusty’s appearance on Break Fake Rules Podcast (March 4, 2026)
• Dimple Abichandani’s appearance on the FTP Podcast
• Dimple Abichandani’s book, A New Era of Philanthropy
• Vu Le’s book, Reimagining Nonprofits and Philanthropy
• Vu Le’s appear on the FTP Podcast
• Marguerite Casey Foundation
• Carmen Rojas appearance on Break Fake Rules Podcast
• Fund the People

Related Episodes:

• FTP Podcast Spotify Playlist on the Overhead Myth (Note: a free Spotify account is required to listen)
• How Funders Can Support Nonprofit Workers in the Age of Burnout - with Jamie Allison, Walter and Elise Haas Fund
• Embracing Nonprofit Abundance - with Nell Edgington, Author and Consultant

In this episode, you'll hear what nonprofits can learn from broader labor market trends—and how organizations can compete for talent in an era of increasing transparency. And you'll get a provocative perspective on how employers have been assessing the "market rate" for salaries, and how we should be thinking differently. Fund the People's Rusty Stahl speaks with Cary Sparrow, founder of WageScape, about how real-time labor market data is reshaping hiring, pay transparency, and workforce strategy.

Download the transcript of this episode in .PDF format

Guest Bio:

Cary Sparrow is the Founder and CEO of WageScape, which provides employers with unique labor market and real-time compensation data. Cary is a former US Navy submarine officer, having served on several nuclear submarines. He is a former global vice president at Cargill, Inc. Sparrow has 35 years combined experience in engineering, military, consulting, and operations leadership in achieving organizational growth in HR, IT, engineering, and technology.

Links to Resources Discussed:

•

Cary Sparrow on LinkedIn

•

Wage Scape on LinkedIn

•

WageScape website

•

Rusty Stahl on LinkedIn

•

Fund the People on LinkedIn

•

Linkedin.com website

•

LinkedIn’s “Economic Graph” - Workforce Data and Research

•

U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics website

Related Episodes from Fund the People:

• Nonprofit H.R. Nuts and Bolts - a Spotify Playlist of select FTP Podcast episodes (free Spotify account needed)
• Making the Nonprofit Workforce Visible - with Alan Abramson and Chelsea Newhouse, George Mason University
• Starting a Revolution in Nonprofit Hiring - with Alfonso Wenker and Trina Olson, Team Dynamics