Kicking It Real

Former Radio City Rockette Keltie Knight is a three-time Emmy winner, a red carpet host for E! News, and the co-founder of the LadyGang podcast. Before the red carpet, she was a dancer who got cut from the Rockettes, auditioned for her own job, and danced for the New York Knicks, the Nets, and Beyoncé.

In this episode of Kicking It Real, two former Rockettes talk about what a dance career really looks like behind the kicks. Keltie shares the husband who watched her rehearse Twelve Days and said “it doesn’t look that hard,” missing the 60% list twice, and the audition where she knew it was personal. She opens up about why dancing for Beyoncé still didn’t pay her rent, how she went from professional dancer to TV host, and getting fired from Entertainment Tonight before landing at E!.

We also get into her new book, The F*ck Them Theory, and why she disagrees with The Let Them Theory. She talks about turning rejection into fuel, the Radio City weight letters dancers used to get, ADHD, and her black swan brain. Plus the Rockette exit nobody talks about, what she’d change about how Radio City says goodbye, and the time Sally Field scolded her on the Emmys red carpet.

If you’re a dancer, a former dancer, or anyone figuring out what comes after the thing you loved most, this one is for you.

The F*ck Them Theory is out 11/24. Tour tickets at ftmbook.com

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Instagram: @keltie
Book + tour: ftmbook.com

Alyssa Lemons was a Radio City Rockette for ten years, and she was never once on the list. Every single year, she auditioned for her own job. Then one summer, she didn't get it back.
Two former Rockettes, one conversation. We start with the ballet scholarship that ended before her freshman year began, with two partially torn tendons and a ligament in her ankle, and the Radio City touring show she saw that Christmas while still in a boot. From there it's an absolute beginner tap class, the Rockette Summer Intensive invitational week, a Rockette Assistant contract she signed on the spot, and a boot camp with only five new girls.
Then we get into the reality of the job: compartmentalizing through four show days, why the day after is the worst one, saying thank you for every note, and how she turned "they keep hiring me back" into her audition mantra. She opens up about the summer she didn't get the job, trying three therapists, writing letters to herself before the first rehearsal posts went up, and the 5:30 a.m. class where she finally felt relief. Plus how Pilates and a Lululemon ambassadorship gave her a new community, why rookie Rockettes should learn three full push-ups, and what she'd tell herself about owning the title.
If you've ever been scared that you're "just a dancer," this one is for you.
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Find Alyssa here 👇🏼
Instagram: @alyssa.lemons.nyc (weekly NYC class schedule, DM for privates)

Amanda Kloots got cut from the Rockettes twice before she booked it. What came after: 16 years of performing, Broadway, a fitness brand, Dancing with the Stars, five seasons co-hosting The Talk, and now her own podcast. And she says none of it was a pivot.
Two former Rockettes, one conversation. We get into what changed between her second and third Rockette audition, surviving the five show day era, and why she left the line for Broadway because she wanted her own character instead of being one of 36. She shares the AK! Rope classes nobody came to for eight months, the Cats cut that made her go all in on her business, and why she calls every career move an enhancement.
Then we go behind the scenes of Dancing with the Stars: why every week is like learning a brand new sport, the advice she gave her friend Jenna Dewan before this season, and why she feels like a better dancer now than ever. Plus what the Rockettes taught her about hosting live TV, how she preps for interviews, why she waited three years to start her grief podcast, whether she'd come back to Broadway as Roxie, and what she'd tell 18 year old Amanda walking into her first audition.
If you've ever stepped away from dance and wondered if you're still a dancer, this one is for you.
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Find Amanda here 👇🏼
Instagram: @amandakloots
Podcast: Good Grief
Proper Health: https://properhealth.com/

Lindsey Hanson has performed on Broadway, on the Radio City stage, on Sesame Street, and on cruise ships doing trapeze. And every time she got to the top of one corner of the dance world, she started over in a new one, on purpose.

She danced with a contemporary jazz company through the Joffrey Ballet School, then cruise ships, then musical theater, then TV and film, and then played the White Queen in Third Rail Projects' Then She Fell. While she was still on tour, she earned her MFA from Montclair State. Today she's a newly tenured dance professor at Hope College, her alma mater, and she's wrapping up a year of four site-specific works made in worship spaces, funded by a $250,000 grant from Creative Arts Collective: Holland, a bird's-eye dance film, 22 dancers in New York, and a fourth in Grand Rapids.

We get into the night she learned a duet, lifts and all, 30 minutes before curtain on a ship, what it's like to find your mark at Radio City when the show is a magic act, the thesis premiere COVID cancelled that went on to 13 film festivals, and the three words that got her through grad school: action cures fear. She also pulls back the curtain on how grants actually work and why burnout might really be boredom.

Then we go deep on choosing a dance college. BFA vs BA vs conservatory, what to ask on a campus visit, why your professors are your first network, and why "the industry" is so much bigger than you think.
If you're auditioning for college this fall, or you're scared to start over at something new, this one is for you.

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@potentiallygabby

Find Lindsey here 👇🏼
Instagram: @lindseyhandsoncollective
Website: https://www.lindseyhansoncollective.com/

Mary Page Nance is living proof of something every artist finds out eventually: talent can get you into the room, but your willingness to stay uncomfortable decides what you do once you're in it.

She trained in modern dance at SUNY Purchase, made her Broadway debut in the original company of Finding Neverland, swung twenty tracks in Natasha, Pierre & The Great Comet of 1812, and went on to the original companies of A Beautiful Noise and Lempicka. She also runs Monocle Productions, her custom event entertainment company, and a page of mary, her handmade paper goods business. And somewhere in the middle of all that, while she was already working on Broadway, she went back to acting school.

We get into why the open calls she spent years showing up to were never real auditions, the email that got her into an Andy Blankenbuehler master class for free, and the first audition where the room was actually expecting her. We talk about what it feels like to go on for a role on a Broadway stage while quietly guessing, and why she went home early on opening night to make a 9:30 a.m. acting class in Brooklyn.

If you've heard no so many times lately that you've started to wonder whether you're the problem, this one is for you.

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Find Mary Page here 👇🏼
Instagram: @marypagenance
TikTok: @marypagenance
Monocle Productions: @monoclenyc
a page of mary: @apageofmary

Her Wicked and Lempicka card designs are at The Drama Book Shop in NYC.
Sarah Kleist's business course for multi-hyphenate artists: sarahkleist.com

Julia Pontarelli packed her car, said goodbye to the only city she had ever called home, and moved to Seattle with two weeks to spare between the end of one dance career and the start of another. Losing the thing your whole life was built around rarely comes with a ceremony, most of the time it just quietly asks you who you are now that it is gone.

Julia spent five years dancing for the Chicago Bulls, working her way up to head captain, before that move to Seattle put her on an NFL dance team for what turned out to be a single season, ending when she was cut the following year. She eventually opened her own dance studio in Seattle, and somewhere in the middle of all of it she also became Player 029 on Squid Game: The Challenge, walking straight into a show built entirely around elimination.

We get into what actually happens in the two weeks between packing up a five year career and starting a brand new one three thousand miles away.

We talk about the post that never happened, the one everyone was waiting for that said she made the team again, and what it cost her to be happy for the friends who did. We also get into why she signed up for a literal elimination show months after living through one, and which kind of getting cut actually hurt more.

Gabby and Julia have known each other since fourth grade, back when they were both dancing in the same production of the Nutcracker, and this one is for anyone who has ever had something taken from them before they were ready to let it go.

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Find Julia here 👇🏼
Instagram & TikTok: @juliaponty

Natalie is back on Kicking It Real, and this conversation is proof that you're allowed to walk away from the thing you built your whole identity around and come out the other side more yourself, not less.
She spent multiple seasons dancing with the Radio City Rockettes, performed on The Tonight Show Starring Jimmy Fallon and at a Madison Square Garden halftime show, and this past season quietly juggled full Rockette rehearsals with her first year of an online graduate program, all while telling almost no one it would be her last season on the line.
We get into what it actually felt like to keep her retirement a secret from her castmates and friends, why burnout ended up being the thing that opened the door to a completely different career, and the moment in a job interview that stopped her in her tracks: "how'd you go from being a Rockette to here?"
We talk about the sunk cost fallacy, what it's like to trade being the most impressive person in the room for a total identity reset, and the exact reframe that made the pressure of becoming someone's therapist feel possible instead of terrifying.
This one is for anyone quietly wondering if they're allowed to want something new after giving everything to the thing they thought was forever.
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Find Natalie here 👇🏼
Instagram & TikTok: @nataliekbutt

Bella Bernath will tell you that talent gets you in the room, but knowing your worth is what actually keeps you working, and keeps you sane while you are doing it.
She started dancing at four years old, was teaching by fourteen, and graduated high school early just to buy herself more time before her move to LA. Within a few years she booked a six year run touring the world as a dancer for Maluma, including his 11:11 World Tour, and somewhere in the middle of all that she landed a Vegas production that turned out to be run by an actual family with real mob ties.
We get into what a real dance contract actually looks like, why she will not work a job that pays below Dancers Alliance rate, and the exact money habits that let her build a six month savings cushion before she ever moved to LA. We talk about negotiating retainer pay mid tour, the difference between wanting a job and needing one to survive, and why so many genuinely talented dancers still cannot shake the feeling that they are not doing enough.
Bella also gets real about what touring actually looks like behind the highlight reel, the hurry up and wait days, the friendships that only exist inside a tour bubble, and the version of herself she had to build to stay steady through years of living out of a suitcase.
This one is for anyone who has ever felt guilty asking to get paid what they are worth.
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Find Bella here 👇🏼
Instagram & TikTok: @bellabhungary

Two years into taking his class, Mike Esperanza pulled Sam Assemany aside and told her to stop being so perfect, to mess it up a little. That is the fear underneath most desperation, the belief that if you are not flawless or constantly visible, someone is going to forget you exist, when usually the opposite is true.
A Western Michigan University dance grad, Sam moved to New York in September of 2015 and took her first class with choreographer Mike Esperanza a month later, a class she still calls the most life changing hour she has ever spent in a studio. She has since become a member of BARE Dance Company, spent six years teaching at a studio on Long Island, and now works within NYCDA, one of the largest dance convention circuits in the industry.
We get into the audition she didn't book two years into taking Mike's class, and why she walked away sad but not angry, not even a little.
We talk about the desperation mindset dancers fall into, the fear of being forgotten if you are not constantly in someone's face, and the one uncomfortable conversation Sam finally had that changed that. We also get into what social media and convention camera culture are doing to young dancers' patience and their ability to just be bad at something in peace.
If you have ever stayed too available out of fear that pulling back would mean being forgotten, this one is for you.
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Find Sam here 👇🏼
Instagram: @samassemany

Clara Eaton Ribeiro used to stand on the podium wondering why she was the only one of her friends walking away with silver instead of gold. That is the trap of chasing recognition, the belief that a medal color could actually tell you how much you were worth, when it never really could.
Clara spent six years performing professionally on cruise ships, training as an aerialist and dancing inside a scuba certified aqua show alongside Olympic divers and Red Bull athletes before she ever sat on the other side of the table as a dance adjudicator and coach. She is also the founder of Vertex Vibe, a boutique dance convention she built on purpose to cap attendance around thirty dancers, a direct answer to the two hundred, sometimes six hundred person conventions she grew up competing at.
We get into what changed for her the first time she sat on the other side of the judging table, deciding who wins and who does not.
We talk about the studio etiquette moment she sees quietly follow dancers into the professional world, why she will always argue dance is an art before it is a sport, and the very real work of letting go of other people's opinions when you have built something with your whole heart.
If you have ever needed someone else to hand you permission to feel proud of yourself, this one is for you.
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Find Clara here 👇🏼
Instagram: @claraeaton
Vertex Vibe: @vertexvibe

Antonio King spent a full month convinced one audition was going to define the rest of his career. That is the trap of wanting anything badly enough, the belief that a single yes or no from someone else could actually decide who you are, when it almost never does.
A performer working professionally for over a decade, Antonio spent six years chasing his first national tour before landing Jersey Boys, then went on to play Jimmy Early in Dreamgirls at Phoenix Theatre, a performance he calls the proudest of his career despite a hamstring pull and sciatica that cost him two weeks of the run. He is also the voice behind a growing platform built out of what he used to call his shirtless sermons, unscripted Instagram stories that became a real resource for young performers navigating an industry built on comparison.
We get into the eight callbacks and eleven sides that pushed him toward a show he ultimately did not book, and the moment two weeks later when he caught himself still spiraling and had to consciously choose to stop.
We talk about the term he coined for that choice, dethroning it, and how he uses it to keep opportunities, likes, and other people's timelines from deciding his worth. We also get into his current prayer for freedom from comparison, offense, and distraction, and the small daily habits, gratitude first thing in the morning, skincare as self-care, a genuinely swift block button, that keep him rooted in his own voice.
If you have ever put something so high on a pedestal that losing it felt like losing yourself, this one is for you.
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Find Antonio here 👇🏼
Instagram & TikTok: @a.king_32

Khori Petinaud will tell you she almost strangled her dream before she learned how to hold it, and that might be the real thesis of this conversation. Sometimes the difference between wanting something and losing yourself to the wanting is just learning how to hold on a little looser.
With Broadway credits spanning Aladdin, Moulin Rouge! The Musical, and Bob Fosse's Dancin' (plus a season as an NYC Rockette along the way), Khori is now originating a whole new chapter as one of the Fates in Broadway's Hadestown, a role she manifested and worked toward for seven years before it ever became hers.
We get into what those seven years actually looked like, the early non-union hustle where she admits she was gripping the goal too tightly, and how that grip eventually had to loosen without her ever loving the work any less.
We talk about the full Rockette season she danced on a torn hamstring without missing a single show, and why she flatly rejects the idea that balance is something achievable at all. And we get into the harder season right before Hadestown, when she felt like she was carrying more than she could bear, and what it took for the people around her to help hold her up.
If you have ever loved something so much you were scared that loving it that hard would end up costing you the love itself, this one is for you.
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Find Khori here👇🏼
Instagram: @kmr8787
Substack: Khori Michelle Petinaud

Paula Leggett Chase didn't grow up dreaming of Broadway, and that might be the real thesis of this conversation. Sometimes the skill that changes your whole life is the one you go looking for last, not the one you were handed as a kid.
Paula was a voice major at Indiana University, a gymnast with no formal dance training, and didn't take a real ballet class until she moved to New York in her twenties, working her way through scholarship classes at Steps until the room finally saw what she could do. She went on to build a Broadway resume that spans A Chorus Line, Crazy for You, Damn Yankees, Kiss Me Kate, Curtains, and Tootsie, plus television work on 30 Rock and Younger.
We get into what it actually felt like to be cast as a trained ballerina in A Chorus Line without the technique to back it up, and the imposter syndrome of faking her way through a role built on years of training she simply didn't have yet. We talk about motherhood inside a business with no guarantees and no family insurance, what it meant to have miscarriages in a dressing room and still show up for eight shows a week, and the advice she'd give her younger self about rejection that has nothing to do with talent and everything to do with fit. And we get into what happens when a woman who spent decades being seen suddenly finds herself invisible in a room full of twenty five year olds, and what she had to prove before that changed.
If you have ever started something later than everyone around you and wondered if you already missed your window, this one is for you.
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Find Paula here👇🏼
Instagram: @paulaleggett
TikTok: @antiqueshowgirl
Website: paulaleggettchase.com

Lizz Picini is the kind of guest who makes you want to throw out every box anyone has ever tried to put you in. There is a moment in every performance career where wearing every hat you own stops being a flex and starts being the whole job, and what you do with that weight says everything about who you actually are.
Lizz has spent hers as a performer, dance captain, swing, and coach, most recently making her Broadway debut in Elf while dance captaining the very show she was still learning in real time, a run that also earned her a LaDuca boot named in her honor. We get into the industry insights she rarely shares publicly, like what it actually felt like to stand up and lead a room full of Tony nominated castmates before she even had her own Broadway credit to her name, and how she learned to stop letting other people's opinions determine her worth, her income, and her health insurance.
We talk about the entrepreneurship behind building her own coaching business out of skills she almost didn't think were sellable, the resilience it took to keep performing through a very real relationship with burnout, and the time management it takes to run client consultations and a Broadway show in the same day. But underneath all of it is the toll that wearing every single hat actually took on her, the part she does not usually say out loud.
This one is for you if you have ever felt like you needed someone's permission to take up more than one lane at a time, even when it was quietly costing you something to hold them all.
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Find Lizz here👇🏼
Instagram & TikTok: @lizzpicini

Today I sit down with Conor DeVoe. This conversation is a reminder that walking away from something does not always mean giving up on it, and that protecting yourself is not the same as quitting.
He is a Coastal Carolina musical theater grad who built a career across regional theater and Disney Cruise Line, now on his seventh contract across four ships, puppeteering Olaf in Frozen and once covering thirty six different dance and acting tracks in a single production. Together we get into what it actually looks like when a performance career you love starts costing you your body and your sense of self, why he stayed as long as he did before leaving a theater contract seven months early, and how a pandemic hobby turned into a social media following that reminded him why he fell in love with acting and performing in the first place.
We unpack boundaries, body image in an industry that rarely names it out loud, and real career advice for anyone building a life in dance or theater on their own terms. If you have ever stayed somewhere that was quietly breaking you because leaving felt like failure, this one is your sign to trust yourself instead.
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Find Conor here👇🏼
Instagram & TikTok: @conordevoe

Ryan Hayes didn't take his first dance class until he was twenty years old, and this episode is proof that the timeline you think you're supposed to be on rarely has anything to do with the career you actually end up building. He went from a Spanish major who'd never set foot in a studio to earning a dance degree at Gonzaga, spending two years training at Steps Conservatory in New York, and landing a spot as a company member with Pilobolus, the modern dance company known for pushing performance into territory that barely looks like dance at all.

We get into what it was like grinding through auditions for cruises, tours, and regional theater before finding the kind of room that finally felt like home, and how choosing to lean into his niche instead of chasing versatility became the thing that let him stop performing for the industry and start showing up with real authenticity.

We talk about the mental health weight of comparison, the quiet timeline anxiety that convinces so many dancers they're already behind, and what it actually took for him to believe he belonged in that Pilobolus audition room the second time around. We also get into life on tour with a company of only six, the unspoken rules that keep that many people sane in close quarters for weeks at a stretch, and the moment he had to rebuild what success even meant once booking the job didn't magically fix the rest of his life.

If you have ever felt like you started too late for the thing you actually wanted, this one is for you.

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Find Ryan here👇🏼
Instagram: @ryan_hayes39

Years before she ever thought she'd actually play her, Deanna Cudjoe performed Cassie's monologue in a college acting class and texted her old teacher the day she booked the real thing.

Deanna is the middle of five kids born to Ghanaian immigrant parents, found ballet through a random beginner book she pulled out of her basement at ten years old, trained for eight years at Still Point Ballet, studied at the University of North Carolina School of the Arts, toured Europe in West Side Story, and made her Broadway debut in Smash after booking it a full year before rehearsals even started. Now she's stepping into A Chorus Line as her first principal role.

We get into the YouTube rabbit hole that basically taught her ballet before she ever set foot in a real studio, an old Anaheim Ballet channel and one Misty Copeland video she watched on repeat as a kid. We talk about what it actually felt like to sit on the Smash news for a year before it started, knowing her life was about to change and not being able to tell anyone yet. We talk about the exact moment she realized a Broadway credit and actually feeling fed by her work were two completely different things. And then we get into her faith, and how she stopped needing a role to tell her who she is.

If you've ever built your whole identity around a title only to find out it was never actually the point, this one is for you.

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TikTok: @potentiallygabby

Find Deanna here👇🏼
Instagram: @deannacudjoe

This episode felt like getting a download from someone a few steps further down a road I'm just starting to walk myself.

Andrew Norlen is a Boston Conservatory grad who wrote the book that gathered over two hundred Broadway letters during the shutdown, founded a nonprofit working to open the first wellness and community space for performers in Manhattan, and somehow does all of that while serving as associate director across Robert Hartwell's companies, the Broadway Collective and the Unstoppable. He has been chasing a Broadway debut for years, closed a non-union national tour of Kinky Boots, and got the offer for that show five minutes before places on a totally different contract he almost didn't take.

We get into why rest still feels like something he has to earn instead of something he's allowed to just take. We talk about the years he spent making decisions based on what other people would think, and what it actually took to stop. We get into the audition he almost gave up on for good, right before it became the best one he'd ever done. And then we talk about the family change that forced him to ask, for maybe the first time, what he actually wants instead of what looks right on paper.

If you are in a season of choosing yourself and still feel guilty about it, this one is for you.

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Instagram: @kickingitrealpod @potentiallygabby
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Find Andrew here👇🏼
Instagram: @anorlen @bravingthebusiness

This episode wrecked me a little, in the best way. I went into this conversation thinking I was catching up with someone whose childhood I half remember from Disney Channel, and I came out of it talking about identity, injury, and what it actually means to rebuild yourself twice.

Jack Taylor played Dandruff Danny on Hannah Montana before most of us even knew what a career in entertainment could look like, and somehow that is the smallest part of his story. He trained at Debbie Allen Dance Academy, danced his way through a kinesiology degree, and eventually ended up dancing at the McKittrick Hotel, the building behind Sleep No More, performing in a late night immersive show most people have never even heard of. We have known each other for years and this still felt like meeting him for the first time.

What we actually get into is harder than any of that. Jack has broken his body twice now, once years ago and once very recently, and both times it forced the same terrifying question. Who are you when the thing you built your whole identity around stops working. We talk about stripping his ego away from his art, what his kinesiology background taught him that his own injuries still humbled him on, and why musical theater is pulling him back in ways contemporary dance never did.

If you have ever tied your worth to one title, one role, one version of yourself, and felt the floor disappear when it shifted, this one is for you.

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Instagram: @kickingitrealpod @potentiallygabby
TikTok: @potentiallygabby

Find Jack here👇🏼
Instagram: @jackatac
TikTok: @officialdandruffdanny

This episode felt less like recording a podcast and more like exactly what it is. Two WMU alums who haven't had a real sit-down in way too long, finally doing it on mic.

If you haven't met Erzsi yet, she's the kind of person who stayed at her studio alone through her entire junior and senior year of high school when everyone else quit, paid off her student loans in months by taking a second job on the cruise ship, and somehow still shows up with more self-awareness than most people twice her age. She's danced everywhere from Royal Caribbean to Odyssey Dance Theater to Bridgerton, and she currently splits her time between Chicago and New York while running 13 convention weekends a year with West Coast Dance Explosion.

We get into what the cruise ship world actually looks like from the inside, and why she thinks it might be one of the smartest financial moves a dancer can make right out of college. We talk about what it means to build a career that doesn't look like everyone else's, and why she stopped being ashamed of that. We talk about the all-or-nothing mentality that dance trains into you and how hard it is to shake. And then we get into the heavier stuff. Health challenges that have put her plans on hold in ways she didn't see coming, watching the Tonies recaps from her couch, and grieving the career you thought you'd have while still showing up for the one you do. Her reframe on that is one I haven't stopped thinking about.

If you're a dancer trying to figure out what it looks like to keep going when the timeline you planned stopped working, this one is for you.

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Find Erzsi here 🤍
Instagram: @erzsi_bernath