The Art of Manliness

Note: This is a rebroadcast.

When people think about living more fully and making better use of their time, they typically think of finding some new organizational system they can structure their lives with.

Oliver Burkeman says that what you really need instead are perspective shifts — small, sustainable changes in how you view and approach your day-to-day life. He provides those mindset shifts in his new book, Meditations for Mortals: Four Weeks to Embrace Your Limitations and Make Time for What Counts. And we talk about some of them today on the show, including why you should view life’s tasks and problems like a river instead of a bucket, stop feeling guilt over your “productivity debt,” make peace with your decisions by embracing an unconventional reading of the poem “The Road Not Taken,” aim to do your habits “dailyish,” be more welcoming of interruptions, and practice “scruffy hospitality.”

Resources Related to the Podcast

• Oliver‘s previous appearance on the AoM podcast: Episode #748 — Time Management for Mortals
• AoM Article: Autofocus — The Productivity System That Treats Your To-Do List Like a River
• AoM Podcast #956: Feeling Depressed and Discombobulated? Social Acceleration May Be to Blame
• Sunday Firesides: To-Dos, the Rent We Pay For Living
• AoM Podcast #962: The Case for Minding Your Own Business
• AoM Podcast #821: Routines Are Overrated
• AoM Article: Routines Not Working For You? Try a Daily Checklist
• Sunday Firesides: Life Is for Living
• Resonance: A Sociology of Our Relationship to the World by Hartmut Rosa
• “The Road Not Taken” by Robert Frost
• The Road Not Taken: Finding America in the Poem Everyone Loves and Almost Everyone Gets Wrong by David Orr
• “The Road Less Traveled” — great, short podcast on the alternate interpretation of Frost’s poem

Connect With Oliver Burkeman

• Oliver‘s website

:00 Introduction

0:23 Welcome & Book Overview

1:45 Continuation of Four Thousand Weeks

3:40 Why Productivity Makes Us Feel Dead Inside

9:04 The Efficiency Trap

11:09 Productivity Debt

14:56 Treat Your Reading List Like a River

18:58 Your To-Do List Is a Menu, Not a Bucket

23:47 Accepting You'll Always Have Problems

27:43 The Pressure to Solve the World's Problems

34:05 Making Decisions & "The Road Not Taken"

37:32 Daily-ish Habits, Interruptions & Scruffy Hospitality

See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

You can't help but notice, in yourself and in others, how much less people are reading these days. When it comes to content consumption, we're often replacing articles and books with videos and, well, podcasts.

My guest says that this shift is having consequences, not only for our shrinking individual attention spans, but for society, and Western civilization writ large.

His name is James Marriott, and he's a columnist at The Times of London and the author of The New Dark Ages: The Death of Reading and the Dawn of the Post-Literate Society. Today on the show, James explains how people thought and interacted before the rise of reading and writing, how literacy changed our minds and made possible everything from democracy to modern science, and how television and smartphones may be returning us in some ways to a preliterate age. We then explore how our increasingly visual culture is making public debate more emotional and influence more personality-driven, and what it might mean for the future.

After the show is over, check out the show notes at http://aom.is/darkages

Resources Related to the Show

• The Intellectual Life of the British Working Classes by Jonathan Rose
• AoM Article: The Medium Is the Message
• Dying Breed Article: The Four Ages of Communication: How Changing Media Transforms the Human Experience
• Orality and Literacy by Walter Ong
• Amusing Ourselves to Death: Public Discourse in the Age of Show Business by Neil Postman

Connect With James Marriott

• James' Substack: Cultural Capital

0:00 Introduction

0:39 The Decline of Reading

5:14 The Golden Age of Mass Literacy

8:24 How Literacy Changed the Mind

12:06 The Preliterate Mind

14:51 Truth and Conflict in Oral Culture

19:18 How Literacy Built Civilization

21:34 The Gutenberg Press & the Reading Revolution

30:45 Television and the Decline of Reading

33:16 Amusing Ourselves to Death

42:03 The Smartphone & the Post-Literate World

50:50 The Future of Reading

See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

It's always been intimidating to enter a room where you don't know everyone, or anyone, and to initiate conversation with people at a wedding, holiday party, or work event. But it's never felt more potentially awkward and anxiety-generating than in an age dominated by screen-mediated interactions, when we don't get much practice in mixing at social events and making small talk in real life.

Here to help us get a lot more confident and comfortable in this area is Jeanne Martinet, author of The Art of Mingling, which is out in a newly updated edition. Jeanne last joined me on the podcast nearly a decade ago, and today she's back to share why the ability to mingle is more important than ever and how to get better at it.

We discuss why small talk is more valuable than you might think, and can not only lead to finding a potential romantic partner or lifelong friend, but is something worth doing for its own sake. Jeanne then shares practical tips you can put to use at your next social gathering or simply when you're out and about. She explains how to identify people who are open to conversation, four ways to break the ice with them, as well as an opening line to avoid, how to keep a conversation going, how to gracefully extract yourself from an interaction that's gone on too long, how to recover from putting your foot in your mouth, and more. We end our conversation with how to find more opportunities to socialize and practice your mingling skills.

After the show is over, check out the show notes http://aom.is/artofmingling

Related

• AoM Article: The Importance of Developing and Maintaining Your Social Fitness
• AoM Article: How to Make Small Talk
• AoM Podcast #502: Why You Should Talk to Strangers
• AoM Article: How to Follow Up After Meeting Someone in Person
• AoM Article: How to Break Away From Someone at a Party
• AoM Podcast #874: Throw a 2-Hour Cocktail Party That Can Change Your Life
• AoM article on having a host mindset

Connect With Jeanne Martinet

• Jeanne's website
• Jeanne on LinkedIn
• Jeanne on IG
• Jeanne on X

0:00 – Introduction

1:19 – Why a New Edition of The Art of Mingling

5:23 – What Is Mingling and Why It Matters

7:14 – The Value of Small Talk

11:10 – What Holds People Back from Mingling

12:43 – How to Spot Someone Open to Conversation

16:17 – The Thin Room, Wingmen & Arriving with a Partner

19:14 – Four Ways to Break the Ice

23:21 – Keeping the Conversation Going

26:41 – Navigating Politics and Sensitive Topics

28:56 – How to Gracefully Exit a Conversation

33:54 – Mingling Anywhere & Finding Opportunities to Socialize

See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

If you’ve been following the Art of Manliness for a while, you know that I typically interview the authors of books on this podcast. But,

if you’ve been following the Art of Manliness for a while, you’ll know why I had to make an exception for today’s guest.

Brandon Flowers is my very favorite musical artist. He is the frontman for the multi-platinum-record-earning band The Killers and has also put out three solo albums.

I recently had the chance to talk to Brandon backstage before one of his shows in Las Vegas. My wife Kate, as well as a couple of friends, were also on hand, and you’ll hear me allude to them a couple times during the interview.

Brandon and I had a great conversation. We discuss his third and latest solo album, Thrasher and why he went country-western on it, what his dad taught him about what makes a good man, what he’s currently reading (hint: it involves the author of my all-time favorite novel), his top five favorite country songs, the influence of faith in his life and music, what’s on his mind in midlife, and how he balances work and family.

Resources Related to the Podcast

• Thrasher on iTunes, Spotify, and YouTube
• Flamingo on iTunes, Spotify, and YouTube
• Pressure Machine on iTunes, Spotify, and YouTube
• Imploding the Mirage on iTunes, Spotify, and YouTube
• Winesburg, Ohio by Sherwood Anderson
• The Pastures of Heaven by John Steinbeck
• AoM Podcast #824: Lonesome Dove and Life’s Journey Through Uncertainty
• AoM Podcast #1,104: Ecclesiastes on Enjoying Our Weirdly Unsatisfying Lives
• Mama Baskets at Costco
• Come Follow Me LDS scripture study program
• “My Lord, What a Morning”
• Take the Simple Test That Can Predict Your Mortality
• Brandon’s favorite country songs:
• “Don’t Close Your Eyes” by Keith Whitley
• “The Winner” by Kris Kristofferson
• “Silver Stallion” by The Highwaymen
• “A Lot of Things Different” by John Conlee
• “What I’d Give” by Ian Noe

Connect With Brandon Flowers

• Brandon’s Website
• Brandon on Instagram
• Brandon on YouTube
• Brandon on Facebook

See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

We live in a world of pervasive noise. Even when we're alone and our surroundings are quiet, our devices bombard us with an endless stream of inputs — messages, news, opinions, entertainment — and we feel constantly connected.

My guest argues that this lack of both silence and solitude isn't just generating stress and fragmenting our attention, but doing real damage to our souls.

His name is John Mark Comer, and he’s a pastor and the author of Into the Quiet. Today on the show, we discuss what noise is doing to the deepest parts of us and how engaging in silence and solitude can help us cultivate inner stillness. We explore the monastic tradition behind these spiritual disciplines, why engaging in them can sometimes feel like a negative experience, and what happens when all our usual distractions disappear. We also get into simple ways to bring more quiet into everyday life.

After the show’s over, check out the show notes at aom.is/silence.

Resources Related to the Podcast

• Get the Book: Into the Quiet
• John Mark's previous appearance on the AoM podcast: Episode #1,013 — Practicing Spiritual Disciplines as an Act of Resistance
• John Mark's Previous Book: Practicing the Way
• AoM Article: The Spiritual Disciplines — Solitude and Silence
• Clear Creek Abbey in OK
• New Camaldoli Hermitage in Big Sur
• A Time to Keep Silence by Patrick Leigh Fermor

Connect With John Mark Comer

• John Mark's website

0:00 Introduction

1:33 What Prompted "Into the Quiet"

5:42 Soundless Noise in the Digital Age

7:39 What Noise Does to Our Souls

11:02 Loneliness vs. Solitude

13:57 Cultivating Inner Stillness

19:02 The Eremos: Jesus' Practice of Solitude

23:58 The Desert Fathers & Monastic Tradition

29:06 What Happens in the Silence

39:17 Confronting Inner Demons in Solitude

47:36 Practical Ways to Practice Silence & Solitude

51:47 Outro

See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Modern life is filled with conveniences designed to make things easier. We can order dinner without leaving the couch, check ourselves out at the grocery store, communicate instantly with anyone, and stream nearly every movie and song ever made.

So why do we often feel busier, more stressed, and more, well, inconvenienced than ever?

My guest today argues that many supposed advancements don’t actually save us time, money, or energy — and that even when they do, they can eliminate forms of friction that made life richer, more enjoyable, and more human.

His name is Gabe Bullard, and he’s the author of Against Convenience. Today on the show, Gabe and I discuss how self-checkout, mobile ordering, digital communication, streaming services, food delivery, and even smartphone cameras can paradoxically make life more annoying and less satisfying. Gabe also shares questions to ask yourself to decide which conveniences are worth keeping, and why deliberately adding a little friction back into your life can sometimes make it better.

0:00 Introduction

1:45 Why Convenience Isn't Working

4:22 Self-Checkout & Starbucks App Failures

11:29 The Illusion of Technological Progress

17:28 Phones as a Single Point of Failure

18:20 How Digital Communication Hurts Relationships

23:49 Dating Apps & Making Friends

27:15 Smartphone Cameras & the Value of Photos

32:41 Streaming & Entertainment Disappointment

40:10 Food Delivery Problems

46:30 Wendell Berry's Questions for New Tech

50:12 Practical Tips for Embracing Friction

See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

We all have things we’ve always wanted to know how to do, but have never gotten around to learning. Speak a foreign language. Play an instrument. Write a book. Take up surfing. Maybe you’ve even started one of these pursuits a few times, only to drop it after a couple of weeks.

My guest calls this collection of abandoned or deferred desires your “invisible list” and is the author of a book of the same name.

Today on the show, Ravi Gupta presents a plan for tackling the things on your invisible list by picking one hobby-like activity each year and working your way to an intermediate level in it. He explains the different categories these pursuits can fall into, from the liftoff project to the mental marathon to the skillbatical, and how to pick the right one for your season of life. We also discuss how camps for grownups can make skill acquisition more enjoyable, why you should consider taking up an adult-appropriate sport like tennis, why Ravi decided to take the MCAT even though he doesn't plan to become a doctor, and how working on your invisible list can give your life chapters and, over the course of a decade, turn you into a Renaissance-man badass.

After the show is over, check out the show notes at http://aom.is/invisiblelist

0:00 — Introduction

1:45 — What is the Invisible List?

4:38 — Examples & Bucket List Comparison

8:46 — Why a Year Creates Life Chapters

11:10 — Making Time: Family & Constraints

15:44 — Five Rules of the Invisible List

18:39 — Why Aim for Intermediate?

21:19 — The Five Archetypes

26:50 — Liftoff Year: Powerlifting & Journaling

37:30 — Skill-Batical: Surfing & Adult Camps

43:17 — Age-Appropriate Sports: Tennis

45:46 — Mental Marathon: Taking the MCAT

See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

When people are faced with problems and complexity, our instinct is to add instead of subtract. As a result, we have a tendency to make our work and our lives more and more complex, and less and less effective and fulfilling. Even when what we add is new technology that promises to make us more productive, it often only seems to bog us down and give us even more to do.

My guest says that to fight this drift toward complexity, especially in the modern age, you’ve got to be ruthless about cutting out the superfluous and focusing on what’s most important. His name is Jim VandeHei, and he’s the co-founder and CEO of Axios and the co-author of Simplify.

Today on the show, Jim explains how to simplify your work and personal life using a three-step process: confront, delete, and amplify. We discuss how to identify the “slop” we’re all inundated with (and he’s not just talking about what’s generated by AI), rules of thumb for what to say no to, why you should spend more time developing your strengths than fixing your weaknesses, and the importance of getting clear on what you want out of life, both personally and professionally.

Resources Related to the Podcast

• Jim's Book: Simplify: Do 50 Percent More with 50 Percent Less
• Jim's last appearance on the AoM podcast: Episode #987 — The No-BS Secrets of Success
• Smart Brevity: The Power of Saying More with Less
• AoM Article: The Spiritual Disciplines — Simplicity
• AoM Podcast #699: The No-Nonsense Guide to Simplifying Every Aspect of Your Life

Connect With Jim VandeHei

• Jim at Axios

0:00 Introduction & Website Redesign

0:48 The Problem with Complexity

1:56 Interview Begins: Why Another Book on Simplifying?

3:00 How AI Makes Life More Complex

5:42 The Confront, Delete, Amplify Framework

8:14 Why Complexity Creeps Into Everything

11:35 Identifying Slop in Work and Life

17:43 How to Confront Your Habits

24:59 Rules for Saying No

29:48 Amplify Strengths Over Weaknesses

37:35 Simplifying Communication at Work

42:29 Using AI to Simplify Your Life

See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

When Mark Hertling learned he was deploying for Operation Desert Storm, he decided to start a journal.

Back then, Mark was an Army major and cavalry officer with two young sons. His unit would be out in front of the main force, and during an intelligence briefing, he was told it could suffer casualties as high as 50 percent. Mark realized there was a real chance he might not come home. So he began writing down what he was experiencing, along with the lessons about life, leadership, and character that he wanted his boys to know if he wasn’t there to teach them himself.

Mark did come home, and went on to serve 38 years in the Army, including as an assistant division commander in Baghdad and later commander of the 1st Armored Division in Iraq during the 2007–2008 surge, before finishing his career as commander of U.S. Army Europe.

Decades later, that wartime journal became the basis for his new book, If I Don’t Return. Today on the show, retired three-star General Mark Hertling and I talk about the reflections it contains on making every day count, planning for friction, marriage and friendship, handwritten notes, casual profanity, the moral weight of war, and what it means to build a man.

Resources Related to the Podcast

• My Life
• On War by Carl von Clausewitz
• AoM Article: Clausewitz on Overcoming the Annoying Slog of Life
• General Douglas MacArthur’s Prayer for His Son

Connect With Mark Hertling

• Mark on LinkedIn
• Mark's faculty page

See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Professor of psychology Angela Duckworth is famous for her work on grit — the combination of passion and perseverance that leads to high achievement. But she’s come to an increasing appreciation for the fact that success isn't just a matter of the qualities inside you; it's also driven by what's outside you — your peers, your mentors, and even your zip code.

Today on the show, Angela, whose latest book is Situated: Find the People and Places That Bring Out Your Best, shares how our environments play a much bigger role in shaping us than we realize. She explains the three-box model of behavior, why relying on willpower is a fallible strategy for altering your habits, and why the most effective way to change yourself is to change what’s around you. We discuss how different situations bring out different versions of ourselves and how to shape your surroundings to encourage good habits, mitigate bad ones, and become who you want to be — whether that means rearranging what’s on your desk or moving across the country.

Resources Related to the Podcast

• Angela's previous appearance on the AoM podcast: Episode #210 — Got Grit?
• AoM Podcast #887: The Golden Rules of Success With Bob Bowman
• AoM Podcast #1,023: Is Self-Control Overrated? With Michael Inzlicht
• Dying Breed Article: The Power of "I Like," or Why Do People Hate the Idea of Motivation?
• AoM Article: Alexander Graham Bell’s Secret to Greater Productivity
• AoM Article: The Ceiling Word Art of Michel de Montaigne

Connect With Angela Duckworth

• Angela's website
• Angela's faculty page
• Angela on LinkedIn
• Angela on IG

0:00 Introduction

1:42 From Grit to Situated

4:18 Michael Phelps: Grit Meets Environment

8:43 The Three-Box Model Explained

12:28 Why Willpower Fails

19:18 Multiple Selves & Code Switching

26:30 Saving a Marriage Through Situational Change

31:51 Curating Your Physical Space

38:26 Shaping Your Digital Environment

43:14 Social Environment & Accountability

47:05 Culture, Microcultures & the Flywheel

53:15 Start With Situational Awareness

See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

The ancient Greeks believed the human soul had three parts: reason, appetite, and something called thumos. Thumos is difficult to translate into English. It encompasses anger, noble spiritedness, pride, ambition, a sense of honor, and the drive to act. The Greeks thought it was essential to living a life of manly virtue, and my guest thinks we could use a lot more of it.

His name is Mike LeBlanc, and he’s a decorated Marine, a Harvard Business School grad, a tech founder, and the author of What If Anger Is the Answer? Today on the show, Mike and I discuss how the angry energy of thumos can help you close the gap between who you are and who you should be. We discuss why physical training helps cultivate thumos, how it can be an aid in overcoming appetites, overthinking, passivity, and cynicism, and the role it can play in being an effective leader.

Resources Related to the Podcast

• AoM Article: Got Thumos?
• AoM Article: 10 Movies That Inspire Thumos
• AoM Article: Soundtrack for Your Thumos
• AoM Article: How to Make Anger Your Ally
• AoM Podcast #1,083: Good Anger — Harnessing a Misunderstood Emotion
• AoM Series: The Life of Jack London as a Case Study in the Power and Perils of Thumos

Connect With Mike LeBlanc

• Mike's website
• Mike on LinkedIn

0:00 Introduction

1:42 Meet Mike LeBlanc: Marines, Great Books & Robotics

5:45 A Letter to His Son: What It Means to Be a Man

8:07 Socrates' Metaphor: The Little Man, the Hydra & the Lion

15:26 The Attributes of Thumos: Dignity, Pride & Shame

17:36 Thumos and Action: The Soul's Three Parts at Work

20:19 Thumos in Defending Boundaries

25:31 Thumos and the Physical Body

31:36 Thumos vs. Overthinking: The 70% Solution

36:03 Thumos, Power & Authority in Leadership

44:42 Overcoming Cynicism with Thumos

49:46 Raising Boys with Thumos & Where to Find the Book

See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Note: This is a rebroadcast.

Have you ever known one of those people who seemed to be able to connect with anyone? The kind of person who had the ability to make others feel understood and smoothly navigate even the trickiest of conversations?

Charles Duhigg calls these folks “supercommunicators,” and he’s the author of a new book by the same name. Today on the show, Charles explains that what underlies supercommunicators’ skill in connection is something called the matching principle, and he unpacks how it works and how you can put it to use in your own conversations. We discuss several techniques for how to figure out what kind of conversation you’re having, so you can align your language and energy with the other person. And because emotional conversations can be particularly difficult, we dig into tactics for successfully navigating them, even when they contain a high degree of conflict. We also get into how to carry the skills of connection into your digital conversations.

Resources Related to the Podcast

• Charles’ previous appearances on the AoM podcast:
• Episode #61: The Power of Habit
• Episode #196: The Science of Self-Motivation & Productivity
• AoM Podcast #559: How to Handle Difficult Conversations

Connect With Charles Duhigg

• Charles’ website

0:00 — Intro & Rebroadcast Notice

0:32 — Why Communication Matters

2:08 — The Matching Principle

5:07 — Deep Questions & FBI Negotiator Felix Sigala

9:50 — Identifying What Kind of Conversation You're Having

10:52 — Setting Goals & Preparing for Conversations

15:06 — Conversations as Quiet Negotiations

19:07 — Navigating Emotional Conversations

24:11 — Turning Shallow Questions Into Deep Questions

28:00 — Mood, Energy & NASA's Emotional Intelligence Test

32:34 — Looping for Understanding & High-Conflict Conversations

38:38 — Digital Communication & Closing

See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Remember the old hotel ice machines? The kind where you'd slide your bucket under the chute and hear the avalanche of cubes crashing into it? There was something so fun and strangely gratifying about that thing.

Or think about breaking an icicle off the edge of a roof. Such a gratifying feeling from such a small act.

My guest has written an ode to the outsized pleasures that arise from these kinds of everyday interactions with the physical world. His name is Ian Bogost, and his new book is The Small Stuff. Today on the show, Ian argues that a fulfilling life isn't built solely by chasing the big components of happiness but also by embracing the small moments of gratification that are woven throughout ordinary life. We discuss how those moments can be found in tactile experiences like shifting a manual transmission, turning a well-made knob, or flipping through the pages of a real menu. We explore how these small opportunities for engagement — for contact, connection, and control— have been disappearing as the world becomes more digitized and automated and everything becomes a touchscreen. And Ian shares how opportunities for "sensory enchantment" can still be found in our increasingly dematerialized world.

Resources Related to the Podcast

• Ian's previous appearance on the AoM Podcast: Episode #247 — The Pleasure of Limits, the Uses of Boredom, and the Antidote to Excessive Irony
• Ian's Atlantic article "The End of Manual Transmission"
• Andy Rooney compilation

Connect With Ian Bogost

• The Small Stuff website
• Ian's website
• Ian's faculty page

0:00 Introduction

0:40 Ian Bogost and 'The Small Stuff'

2:25 What Kickstarted This Book

6:38 Happiness, Satisfaction, and Gratification

14:58 Gratification Is Everywhere — But Disappearing

18:28 Dematerialization: How the World Is Losing Sensory Richness

26:41 How Work Has Become Less Gratifying

33:09 How to Reclaim Your Sensory Life

38:35 Keep More Junk Around

44:38 Talk About Small Pleasures

48:17 Living Life Sideways (Orthogonality)

50:03 Wrap-Up

See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

People are told their whole lives how important it is to find their purpose. But many find the search frustrating. They feel there's one true calling or one grand goal they're supposed to be pursuing, but they can't seem to discern what it is.

My guest, Jordan Grumet, author of The Purpose Code, says that searching for what he calls your big P purpose can be fruitless and even harmful, and that a better path is to embrace a life of little p purposes. Today on the show, Jordan explains the difference between big P and little p purposes and argues that the former can lead to anxiety while embracing the latter can be the path to meaning, satisfaction, connection, and even the legacy you were looking for in the first place. We discuss how Jordan found his way to this philosophy after burning out as a doctor, practical ways to discover your own little p purposes, what he thinks we get wrong in making family our purpose, and what his work in hospice has taught him about living a life without regret.

Connect With Jordan Grumet

• Jordan's website
• Jordan's Substack: The Purpose Code

00:00 Intro & Show Overview

0:41 Meet Jordan Grumet

1:46 From Doctor to Purpose Writer

5:00 Big P vs Little P Purpose

8:32 Why Purpose Talk Makes People Anxious

11:15 What the Research Says

13:42 Burnout and Big P Purpose

16:18 The Podcasting Example: Process vs Goals

19:42 Legacy Through Little P Purpose

28:24 Finding Your Purpose Anchors

38:01 The Climb: Building Your Purpose

43:14 Family, Regrets, and Final Thoughts

See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

With the release of Christopher Nolan's adaptation of the Odyssey, it seems like everyone's been talking about a 3,000-year-old epic again. But my guest thinks this ancient tale offers a framework for understanding our modern lives that you probably haven't heard before.

Patrick Deneen is a professor of political science and the author of American Odyssey. Today on the show, Patrick argues that Odysseus embodies a tension that has defined the human experience, and especially the American experience: we're both home-seeking and exploring, rooted and restless. We long to settle down somewhere, yet we're equally driven to push beyond the horizon in search of something new. Patrick shares how Alexis de Tocqueville made this observation about our country two centuries ago, how Odysseus navigates the temptation to become both more than human and less than human, and the surprising act Patrick thinks is the most heroic thing Odysseus does. We end our conversation with the idea that having a home can give us the confidence to explore, or as David Brooks put it, "All of life is a series of daring explorations from a secure base."

Resources Related to the Podcast

• AoM Article: 3 Lessons From Homer’s Odyssey
• AoM Podcast #337: What Homer’s Odyssey Can Teach Us Today
• Democracy in America by Alexis de Tocqueville
• "Ulysses" by Alfred, Lord Tennyson

Connect With Patrick Deneen

• Patrick's faculty page
• Patrick's website
• American Odyssey's page on Creed and Culture's website

0:00 Intro & sponsor plugs

0:41 Patrick Deneen's American Odyssey & Nolan's film

2:28 Nolan's changes to Odysseus's character

4:56 Dante's Odysseus in hell

7:33 Why Odyssey keeps drawing Patrick back

13:02 The most American text: home-seeking vs exploring

17:15 Tocqueville's restless Americans

20:03 Restlessness as source of American unhappiness

21:03 Odysseus vs the temptation to be more/less than human

26:14 That temptation in modern American life

31:26 Odysseus's underworld talk with Achilles

39:41 What today's Americans can take from that

41:24 Does Odysseus stay home? The "sequels" to The Odyssey

45:49 Home as the foundation for risk-taking and adventure

51:14 Where to find the book

See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

When most people think of negotiation, they picture big, high-stakes moments: haggling over the price of a house, negotiating a starting salary, or hammering out the terms of a business deal. But negotiation is also something we do every day. It’s working out who’s taking on which chores with your spouse, convincing a coworker to help on a project, or even deciding where to go for dinner with friends. The better you understand negotiation — which is really about influencing other people’s decisions — the better you’ll be at navigating conflicts and opportunities both big and small.

My guest has spent decades studying the art and science of wielding that influence. John Richardson teaches negotiation at MIT’s Sloan School of Management and is the co-author of Never Settle. Today on the show, John shares what he learned from negotiation legends like Roger Fisher, co-author of Getting to Yes, and FBI hostage negotiator Chris Voss. He unpacks the skills of master negotiators, including how to build reciprocity, uncover what people actually want, and keep your emotions from hijacking your judgment. We also get into the part of negotiation that makes people the most uncomfortable: the back-and-forth over hard numbers like price and salary and how to handle those conversations with greater confidence and better results.

• Resources Related to the PodcastAoM Podcast #234: Haggling and Deal Making Advice From a FBI Hostage Negotiator (With Chris Voss)
• AoM Podcast #559: How to Handle Difficult Conversations (With Sheila Heen)
• Influence: The Essential Guide to the Psychology of Influence and Persuasion in Everyday Life by Robert B. Cialdini
• AoM Article: How Labeling Your Emotions Can Help You Take Control
• Getting to Yes: Negotiating Agreement Without Giving In by Roger Fisher
• Start with NO…The Negotiating Tools that the Pros Don’t Want You to Know by Jim Camp

Connect With John Richardson

• Never Settle website
• John’s faculty page

0:00 Everyday Negotiation & Meet John Richardson

2:18 John's Path Into Negotiation

9:50 Why People Fear Negotiation

12:34 Roger Fisher's Philosophy (Getting to Yes)

17:46 Chris Voss & Hostage Negotiation Tactics

22:54 Give Them a Sandwich (Reciprocity)

30:06 Using Someone's Name

33:59 Managing Your Emotions

39:00 Figuring Out What Everyone Wants

46:29 Distributive Negotiation & Anchoring

54:52 Alternatives, Saying No & Closing

See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Most people assume that if a goal is hard to achieve, getting there has to feel hard too. We tend to believe that extraordinary results require extraordinary suffering.

But my guest says the secret to success isn't gritting your teeth; it's making the path enjoyable. His name is Jia Jiang, and in his new book, Easy Discipline, he argues that consistency comes from designing your work and your life so that doing the right thing becomes something you actually want to do. Today on the show, Jia explains the difference between hard and easy discipline, why "eating bitterness" isn't the best way to go after your ambitions, and how to make your work feel more like play without lowering your standards. Along the way, we discuss Soviet hockey, Japanese tea ceremonies, rejection therapy, one-action goals, and the power of pursuing aims that are an expression of who you are.

Resources Related to the Podcast

• Jia's previous book: Rejection Therapy
• Jia's 100 Days of Rejection Therapy videos, including asking for a "burger refill"
• AoM Article: Motivation Over Discipline
• AoM Podcast #954: The Feel-Good Method of Productivity

Connect With Jia Jiang

• Jia on Substack
• Jia's website
• Jia on LinkedIn

0:00 Introduction to the AOM Podcast

0:41 Introducing Jia Jiang and Easy Discipline

1:36 Welcome Jia Jiang / The Myth of Sisyphus

6:05 Hard Discipline vs. Easy Discipline

9:36 Eating Bitterness

10:44 Soviet Hockey: Tarasov vs. Tikhonov

16:02 The EASY Framework: Enjoyment

31:02 Artistry and Ichi-go Ichi-e

33:54 Systems and One Action Goals

41:22 Repetition with Variation

44:18 Why: Being True to Yourself

52:33 Where to Find Jia Jiang's Work

See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Many of us grow up believing that midlife is when things start going downhill. Your body's breaking down, your best work is behind you, and you may fall into a full-blown existential crisis. But a lot of what we think we know about midlife turns out to be based more on pop culture than actual research.

My guest says the reality is much more encouraging. Her name is Margie Lachman. She's a professor of psychology, the Director of the Lifespan Lab at Brandeis University, and the author of Primetime: A New Vision for Midlife. Today on the show, Margie discusses what age range constitutes midlife — and how it's not just a matter of chronological age — and whether people really become less happy and experience a midlife crisis during these years. She explains the surprising ways your mind continues to improve even as some abilities slow down, and why this stage of life often represents a peak combination of creativity and judgment. We also talk about the real challenges that come with midlife and how adopting the right mindset and habits can mitigate those downsides while helping you make the most of what Margie argues can truly be a sweet spot in life — a time when you still have much of your physical and mental vitality, and it's coupled with seasoned experience and wisdom.

Resources Related to the Podcast

• Seasons of a Man’s Life by Daniel Levinson
• AoM series on Levinson’s research
• Transformations: Growth and Change in Adult Life by Roger Gould
• Passages: Predictable Crises of Adult Life by Gail Sheehy
• AoM Podcast #598: Journeying From the First to the Second Half of Life With James Hollis
• AoM Podcast #776: How to Shift Out of the Midlife Malaise

Connect With Margie Lachman

• Margie's website
• Margie's faculty page

See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

George Washington is perhaps the most familiar figure in American history. But most people really only know the image of him they see in marble statues and patriotic paintings. Behind those symbols was a real man: ambitious, self-taught, intensely concerned with honor, and constantly wrestling with the immense responsibilities history placed on his shoulders.

In celebration of America's 250th birthday, we're taking an extended look at the life of the man more responsible than anyone else for the nation's founding. Here to unpack that life for us is H.W. Brands, a historian and the author of a new biography of Washington, American Patriarch. Brands traces Washington's journey from a young Virginia surveyor to military commander, founding father, and first president. Along the way, we discuss how Washington's upbringing shaped his character, why he became a surprisingly effective military leader despite losing more battles than he won, how he held together a fragile revolutionary army, how he shaped the presidency through the precedents he set, and whether a leader like Washington could still succeed today.

Resources Related to the Podcast

• H.W.'s previous appearances on the AoM podcast:
• Episode #696: Theodore Roosevelt, The Last Romantic
• Episode #908: Would You Have Been a Patriot or a Loyalist?
• AoM Podcast #223: George Washington, Benedict Arnold, and Valiant Ambition
• AoM Podcast #366: Teach Yourself Like George Washington
• AoM Podcast #719: The Surprising Pessimism of America’s Founding Fathers
• AoM Article: George Washington’s Rules of Civility and Decent Behavior in Company and Conversation

Connect With H.W. Brands

• H.W. on Substack
• H.W.’s faculty page

00:00 Introduction

01:53 About the book American Patriarch

03:03 Washington's childhood & Virginia gentry upbringing

06:54 Self-education, surveying, and early ambition

11:47 First military mission to the Ohio country

17:11 The French and Indian War & Washington's baptism under fire

24:44 Washington marries Martha Custis

33:57 Washington takes command of the Continental Army

40:17 Military strategy: how Washington won by not losing

46:41 Holding the army together at Valley Forge

55:57 Washington as first president & setting precedents

1:09:56 The Farewell Address & legacy

1:10:15 What Washington teaches us today

See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

The modern idea of retirement was built on a bet that turned out to be wrong. It assumed people would spend most of their lives working and only a relatively short period of time retired. Instead, many Americans now reach 65 healthy, active, and with an entire third of their life ahead of them. Yet we're still using a retirement model designed for a world in which old age was shorter and fewer people expected decades of life after leaving the workforce.

My guest says that outdated assumption creates some unfortunate unintended consequences. It causes people to stress excessively about money, postpone meaningful experiences with family and friends, and sometimes sacrifice the very things that make life worth living in the first place. He argues that by rethinking retirement — not necessarily eliminating it, but reimagining it — we can enjoy more of our lives now while actually feeling more secure about the future.

His name is Derek Coburn, and he's a financial advisor and the author of Let's Retire Retirement. Today on the show, Derek explains why the traditional retirement model came about, why it may no longer make sense for many people, and how working even a few years past 65 can dramatically change the math of retirement planning. We also discuss the surprising psychological challenges many people face after they stop working, why purpose matters more than leisure, and how thinking differently about retirement can free you up to spend more time on what matters most right now — whether that's traveling, strengthening your marriage, or making the most of the limited summers you have left with your kids.

Connect With Derek Coburn

• Derek's website (including his retirement calculator)
• Derek on IG

0:00 - Introduction

1:22 - The Outdated Origins of Retirement (Bismarck's 1889 Social Insurance Plan)

4:12 - Why the Traditional Retirement Model Creates Stress and Anxiety

6:13 - The "Arrival Fallacy" — Why Retirement Isn't What You Think It Will Be

8:42 - The Psychological Crisis of Stopping Work Cold Turkey

11:05 - The Math: How Working 10 More Years Cuts Your Savings Requirement by 96%

13:21 - Enjoying Life NOW Instead of Deferring It to Retirement

14:22 - Maximizing the Limited Summers You Have with Your Kids

19:48 - Sponsor Break

20:07 - What If You Hate Your Job? Find One You "Don't Hate"

22:37 - Side Hustles as an On-Ramp to Work You Love

24:09 - Physical Jobs and Mandatory Retirement — What Then?

See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.