The Better Way Nonprofit Podcast

Ninety-four percent of nonprofit professionals say they want their organization to shift its fundraising strategy. Most organizations are still doing the same things they did ten years ago.

In this episode, host Derric Bakker is joined by Owen Fitzpatrick, a social psychologist, author, and expert on how beliefs shape leadership, decision making, and organizational change. Owen has studied belief and propaganda from the outside in, traveling to places like North Korea and Rwanda, and from the inside out, working with senior leaders at companies including Google, LinkedIn, Pfizer, and Morgan Stanley. He is the author of Inner Propaganda.

Derric and Owen start with the paradox from DickersonBakker's national study of nonprofit professionals and ask why a sector that agrees change is necessary still struggles to produce it. Owen's answer is inner propaganda, the campaign the brain runs to keep itself safe and stable, which is why beliefs so often feel like facts. They trace how the fundraising systems the sector inherited took hold because they worked, why success itself makes an assumption harder to challenge, how a leader's beliefs become an organization's culture, metrics, and incentives, and what it takes to close the gap between wanting change and producing it.

IN THIS EPISODE

00:00 Cold open: the changing times are making change mandatory 00:33 The paradox: 94 percent want change, most organizations are stuck in neutral
02:50 Meet Owen Fitzpatrick
03:25 What nonprofits can do better: feeling and identity
04:50 What nonprofits should stop doing
05:45 From North Korea to inner propaganda
07:30 An inner dictator, not an inner critic
10:37 Why the brain runs a propaganda campaign: safety and stability 13:55 Did we ever choose what we believe?
16:14 The assumptions we inherit in fundraising
17:42 Why smart people get stuck: the curse of knowledge
21:59 Why wanting change is not enough
25:10 Feels right, fits in, makes sense
26:04 How a leader’s beliefs become the organization’s culture
30:46 Just because you say it doesn’t make it so
32:27 Strategies are downstream from beliefs
33:52 How to surface the assumptions you no longer see
35:23 One idea to put into practice
36:40 Where to find Owen

ABOUT THE GUEST

Owen Fitzpatrick is a social psychologist, author, and expert on how beliefs shape leadership, decision making, and organizational change. He first used the term inner propaganda in his 2016 TEDx talk, and is the author of Inner Propaganda, a keynote speaker focused on belief leadership, and host of the Inner Propaganda newsletter and podcast.

RESOURCES

Inner Propaganda, by Owen Fitzpatrick, available nationwide in the US and on Amazon, https://innerpropaganda.com/
Owen Fitzpatrick, https://owenfitzpatrick.com/
A Better Way to Fundraise: Treat Every Donor Like a Major Donor, by Derric Bakker
DickersonBakker, https://dickersonbakker.com/

ABOUT THE SHOW

The Better Way Nonprofit Podcast explores the ideas and opportunities reshaping the future of the nonprofit sector. Each episode features candid conversations with innovative leaders helping nonprofits find better ways to lead, grow, and thrive. Hosted by Derric Bakker, founder and CEO of DickersonBakker.

Of all the relationships inside a nonprofit, few shape fundraising more than the one between the CEO and the chief development officer.

In this episode, host Derric Bakker looks at that relationship from both sides of the table. Dr. Roy Peterson served as CEO of Wycliffe Bible Translators, the Seed Company, and American Bible Society, and is now president of Peterson Executive Coaching. Tracy Thomas is Chief Development Officer at Museum of the Bible, with more than 22 years of nonprofit fundraising experience.

They talk about what each role needs from the other, why a leader's calendar shows their real fundraising priorities, and why Roy reported his fundraising time to his board every quarter. Tracy explains why trust and transparency decide whether the partnership works, and why a CEO should read the briefing. Together they cover how a CEO builds real donor relationships without becoming a gift officer, what happens when growth outpaces the team, and why CEOs and frontline fundraisers often measure success differently.

IN THIS EPISODE
00:00 Cold open: the relationship, capital T-H-E
00:41 Welcome, and why the CEO and CDO relationship matters so much
03:03 Meet Dr. Roy Peterson and Tracy Thomas
05:17 What CEOs and CDOs need from each other
06:52 Your calendar reflects how you spend your time
08:41 Reporting fundraising time to the board: 25 to 30 percent
09:30 What makes the great partnerships great
11:38 Trust, transparency, and knowing your role
14:43 No surprises, and the trust scale from zero to eleven
16:33 Why it is so hard to change a CEO’s priorities
18:08 Common pitfalls: the dinner Roy walked into unprepared
20:58 Read the briefing
22:36 The CEO’s role in fundraising, without becoming a gift officer 25:30 Driving transformational change
27:45 More money, more problems: when growth outpaces the team 30:07 Change needs a roadmap
31:34 The divide in fundraising metrics, and the board
35:22 What fundraisers see that CEOs may not
36:22 Closing advice for CEOs and CDOs
39:53 Trust is the most important currency
41:18 Where to connect with Roy and Tracy

ABOUT THE GUESTS
Dr. Roy Peterson served as CEO of Wycliffe Bible Translators, the Seed Company, and American Bible Society. He is president of Peterson Executive Coaching, where he helps nonprofit and ministry leaders navigate complex challenges. Tracy Thomas is Chief Development Officer at Museum of the Bible, where she oversees fundraising, development, and VIP relationships. She previously served as Senior Vice President of Advancement at Biblica.

RESOURCES
Peterson Executive Coaching, https://www.petersonexecutivecoaching.com
Tracy Thomas on LinkedIn,LinkedIn.com
DickersonBakker, https://www.dickersonbaker.com

ABOUT THE SHOW
The Better Way Nonprofit Podcast explores the ideas and opportunities reshaping the future of the nonprofit sector. Each episode features candid conversations with innovative leaders helping nonprofits find better ways to lead, grow, and thrive. Hosted by Derric Bakker, founder and CEO of DickersonBakker.

Fundraisers get into this work because they care about the mission and enjoy connecting with people. Increasingly, the work pulls them away from both.

In this episode, host Derric Bakker is joined by Mallory Erickson, founder of Practivated, a consultant who works with fundraisers across the sector and builds AI designed to make fundraisers better rather than replace them, and Trish Davis, a fundraising leader working inside a large organization.

Together they look at why fundraisers burn out, from the five components of fundraising that Mallory describes as driving chronic stress to the busy work that crowds out the relationships that give the job meaning. They examine the fork the sector now faces, between AI that gives fundraisers capacity and autonomous systems that take humans out of the conversation, and why trust makes that choice so consequential. The conversation covers the research trap that stops fundraisers asking questions, what leaders should do with the time AI creates, and where to draw the line on disclosure when donors interact with AI.

CHAPTERS

00:00 Cold open: robot fundraisers and the end of our imagination

00:33 Why burnout has become such a persistent challenge for fundraisers

02:19 Meet Mallory Erickson and Trish Davis

02:49 Trish on reading A Better Way to Fundraise during a season of burnout

05:02 The five components of fundraising that drive chronic stress

06:47 Too little time on the parts of the job that give meaning

08:38 The fork in the road: AI that supports fundraisers or AI that replaces them

11:02 Which fork the sector is actually on

14:25 Trust as the most important currency in fundraising

15:02 Start with the experience, not the technology

17:08 What it means for a fundraising tool to work, and why Mallory built Practivated

18:53 The research trap: when knowing a donor stops the questions

20:07 What to do with the capacity AI creates

26:02 Where to draw the line: disclosure and AI that impersonates humans

29:51 One thing to take away

32:36 Closing: restoring the joy of being a fundraiser

ABOUT THE GUESTS

Mallory Erickson is the founder of Practivated, where she builds AI tools designed to help fundraisers be better rather than replace them, and a consultant who works with fundraisers across the sector.

Trish Davis is a fundraising leader working inside a large organization.

RESOURCES

Learn more about Practivated: https://www.practivated.com

Learn more about DickersonBakker: https://www.dickersonbaker.com

Purchase A Better Way to Fundraise, by Derric Bakker: https://www.amazon.com/Better-Way-Fundraise-Reshaping-Philanthropy/dp/B0GXPQNSCH

Subscribe to Derric's Substack for more on relational fundraising: http://www.betterwaychampions.substack.com

ABOUT THE SHOW

The Better Way Nonprofit Podcast explores the ideas and opportunities reshaping the future of the nonprofit sector. Each episode features candid conversations with innovative leaders helping nonprofits find better ways to lead, grow, and thrive. Hosted by Derric Bakker, founder and CEO of DickersonBakker.

#NonprofitFundraising #FundraiserBurnout #AIForNonprofits #DonorRelationships #NonprofitLeadership

The old script was give first, then get involved. For younger donors it has flipped, and most nonprofits are still fundraising off the old one. In this episode, host Derric Bakker welcomes Dr. Michael Moody, Professor of Philanthropic Studies at Indiana University's Lilly Family School of Philanthropy and co-author of Generation Impact: How Next Gen Donors Are Revolutionizing Giving. Together they explore the shifting paradigm of youth generosity and unpack why traditional donor journeys no longer produce results with rising generations.

Rather than generosity fading among younger donors, the traditional script has reversed. Next-gen donors want to get involved, build connection, and see impact before making a financial gift. Derric and Michael discuss how nonprofits can adapt to this hands-on, cause-driven

approach, foster multi-generational giving conversations, and adopt a strategy of treating every donor like a major donor.

IN THIS EPISODE

00:00 Introduction and flipping the donor script

03:18 Is generosity actually fading?

05:31 The current golden age of giving

08:45 Why traditional methods are not working

13:16 How millennials approach giving

16:17 Giving tryouts and involvement first

19:52 Asking the right question

22:28 Lightning round, the traits of next-gen donors

25:56 Beyond 501c3s, LLCs, impact investing and DAFs

28:28 Treating every donor like a major donor

30:36 Practical suggestions and why waiting is a mistake

ABOUT THE GUEST

Dr. Michael Moody is Professor of Philanthropic Studies at Indiana University's Lilly Family School of Philanthropy, where his research focuses on family and next generation donors.

RESOURCES

Generation Impact, by Dr. Michael Moody

Young Donors Aren't Ignoring Nonprofits. Nonprofits Are Ignoring Them., by Derric Bakker on Substack

Indiana University Lilly Family School of Philanthropy

A Better Way to Fundraise: Treat Every Donor Like a Major Donor, by Derric Bakker

DickersonBakker

LINKS

Join the Better Way community

Subscribe to Derric's Substack for more on relational fundraising

Work with us!

Watch on YouTube

Follow DickersonBakker on LinkedIn

ABOUT THE SHOW

The Better Way Nonprofit Podcast is hosted by Derric Bakker, CEO of DickersonBakker and author of the Amazon bestseller A Better Way to Fundraise: Treat Every Donor Like a Major Donor. Every episode exists to do one thing: help you treat every donor like a major donor. Not as a theory. As a practice. More at http://betterwaychampions.org.

Great fundraisers have always listened, personalized, and thanked well. They just could never do it for everyone. That constraint is dissolving.

In this episode, host Derric Bakker sits down with Dr. Cheryl Contee, pioneering technology entrepreneur, digital transformation expert, and author of AI for Nonprofits. Together they explore how mission-driven organizations can extend high-touch, relationship-based fundraising

to donors at every level.

Rather than using technology to automate away the human element, Derric and Cheryl discuss how predictive and generative AI can serve as a co-pilot. They walk all seven behaviors from A Better Way to Fundraise, outline five essential ethical guardrails for protecting donor trust, and explain how automating administrative work gives fundraisers more time to build authentic connections.

IN THIS EPISODE

00:00 Introduction and the infrastructure shift

03:18 Meet Dr. Cheryl Contee

06:39 Behavior 1, Listen First

09:59 Behavior 2, Personalize Every Touch Point

14:38 Behavior 3, Express Genuine Gratitude

20:00 Behavior 4, Earn Their Next Gift

24:30 Behaviors 5 and 6, predictive AI

28:30 Behavior 7, Never Betray Trust, the five guardrails

38:16 Transparency and disclosure

41:16 The ultimate AI killer app

ABOUT THE GUEST

Dr. Cheryl Contee runs Brightworks AI, her consultancy for nonprofits ready to begin an AI journey, and is a senior advisor to http://posterchild.ai. She previously co-founded http://Attentive.ly, an early social listening platform for nonprofits.

RESOURCES

AI for Nonprofits, by Dr. Cheryl Contee

Brightworks AI

A Better Way to Fundraise: Treat Every Donor Like a Major Donor, by Derric Bakker

DickersonBakker

LINKS

Join the Better Way community

Subscribe to Derric's Substack for more on relational fundraising

Work with us!

Watch on YouTube

Follow DickersonBakker on LinkedIn

ABOUT THE SHOW

The Better Way Nonprofit Podcast is hosted by Derric Bakker, CEO of DickersonBakker and author of the Amazon bestseller A Better Way to Fundraise: Treat Every Donor Like a Major Donor. Every episode exists to do one thing: help you treat every donor like a major donor. Not as a theory. As a practice. More at http://betterwaychampions.org.

The Better Way did not start with a book. It started with two people in the same profession, looking at the same problem from opposite seats. In the premier episode, host Derric Bakker is joined by Andrew Olsen, President of DickersonBakker and two-time bestselling author. Coming from oppposite sides of the profession, major gift consulting and direct response marketing, they reached the same diagnosis: rising acquisition costs, revenue concentrating into the top few percent of donors, and programs optimized for volume rather than relationship.

Derric and Andrew discuss what broke, why standard campaign metrics hid it, and what changed when they rebuilt around relationships. They cover the agency incentives that work against donors, what a hybrid relational program looks like when direct mail and major gifts stop

operating as separate worlds, and the two behaviors to start with this week.

IN THIS EPISODE

00:00 Welcome and the changing world of fundraising

01:16 Two convergence journeys

04:33 Meet Andrew Olsen

06:51 Cracks in the direct response machine

08:29 Industrialized fundraising versus relationships

12:18 Pushing for change from the inside

16:02 Building a hybrid relational agency

21:13 Market response and proof of concept

25:53 Shifting mindsets and measuring what matters

31:11 Taking ownership and surprising results

32:50 Practical takeaways, listen first and earn the next gift

ABOUT THE GUEST

Andrew Olsen is President of DickersonBakker. He has held senior leadership roles at Moore, Omnicom, Russ Reid, Strategic Fundraising and Newport ONE, serving more than a thousand ministries and nonprofits and helping them raise over a billion dollars. He is a two-time

bestselling author, host of The Rainmaker Fundraising Podcast, and serves on the board of Downrange Warriors.

RESOURCES

A Better Way to Fundraise: Treat Every Donor Like a Major Donor, by Derric Bakker

The Rainmaker Fundraising Podcast, hosted by Andrew Olsen

Downrange Warriors

DickersonBakker

LINKS

Join the Better Way community

Subscribe to Derric's Substack for more on relational fundraising.

Work with us!

Watch on YouTube

Follow DickersonBakker on LinkedIn

ABOUT THE SHOW

The Better Way Nonprofit Podcast is hosted by Derric Bakker, CEO of DickersonBakker and author of the Amazon bestseller A Better Way to Fundraise: Treat Every Donor Like a Major Donor. Every episode exists to do one thing: help you treat every donor like a major donor. Not as a theory. As a practice. More at betterwaychampions.org.