The Deconstructionists

The History of Demons, Part Two: From Scripture to the Silver Screen | Halloween Special

How did the spirits of the ancient world become the demons of modern nightmares?

In the conclusion of our Halloween special, we pick up after our exploration of the Book of Enoch and turn to the New Testament, early Christianity, and the centuries of interpretation that followed.

From “unclean spirits” and the story of Legion to debates about pagan gods, fallen angels, and Lucifer, we examine how different texts and traditions became woven into a familiar supernatural story. We also explore Revelation’s symbolic, apocalyptic imagery—and why reading it in its historical and literary context matters.

Then we follow demons beyond scripture, through demonology, witch trials, literature, and modern horror. How much of what we picture today comes from ancient religious texts, and how much comes from the stories told afterward?

In part two:

• Demons, possession, and exorcism in the New Testament.
• Legion, Beelzebul, and the language of “unclean spirits.”
• Early Christian interpretations of pagan gods and demonic powers.
• How Satan, Lucifer, fallen angels, and demons became connected in later traditions.
• Revelation’s imagery and the importance of understanding apocalyptic literature.
• Demonology and witch trials.
• The influence of Dante, Milton, and the Faust tradition.
• Modern horror—and Pazuzu’s journey from ancient protective figure to cinematic terror.

The beings we call demons have never had one universally agreed-upon history. Their story is also a story about how human beings explain suffering, imagine evil, and give shape to the unknown.

Research resources and historical writings

• Justin Martyr — Second Apology, especially chapter 5. An early Christian account connecting transgressing angels and demons. This is a primary historical source rather than modern academic analysis.
• https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0127.htm
• Augustine — The City of God, Book IX. An influential Christian discussion of demons and their supposed role as intermediaries. This is a primary historical source.
• https://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf102.iv.IX.html
• The Metropolitan Museum of Art — “Pazuzu: Beyond Good and Evil.” Historical context for comparing the ancient Pazuzu with his modern horror counterpart.
• https://www.metmuseum.org/exhibitions/listings/2014/assyria-to-iberia/blog/posts/pazuzu

Biblical texts explored

• Mark 5:1–20: The story of Legion.
• Matthew 12:22–32: Beelzebul and accusations concerning Jesus’ exorcisms.
• Isaiah 14: A passage central to later interpretations of Lucifer.
• Jude: References relevant to Enochic traditions and transgressing angels.
• Revelation 12: The dragon, heavenly conflict, and apocalyptic symbolism.

Literary works discussed

• Dante Alighieri — Inferno.
• John Milton — Paradise Lost.
• The Faust tradition.

These literary works are explored for their influence on popular imagination, distinct from ancient scripture and historical evidence.

New to this series? Start with part one for Mesopotamian spirits, Greek and Persian traditions, the Watchers, and the Book of Enoch.

If you enjoyed our Halloween special leave a rating or review, and share both episodes with someone curious about the history behind the things that scare us.

Be sure to join the mailing list so you don't miss out on our brand new podcast coming soon - This Is Who We Become at thisiswhowebecome.com

Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

Privacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

The History of Demons, Part One: Ancient Spirits and the Watchers | Halloween Special

Before there was The Exorcist, there was Pazuzu. Before demons became synonymous with fallen angels, ancient cultures told very different stories about the unseen beings surrounding them.

In part one of our Halloween special, we trace the history of demons from ancient Mesopotamia through Greek and Persian traditions and into the religious world of ancient Judaism.

Along the way, we encounter protective demons, dangerous spirits, mysterious giants, and angels who cross a forbidden boundary. We also explore the Book of Enoch—a text that helped shape influential ideas about evil spirits, yet was excluded from most Christian biblical canons while remaining scripture in the Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo tradition.

This isn’t an attempt to settle whether demons exist. It’s an exploration of how people’s understanding of their origins, nature, and purpose has changed across thousands of years.

In part one:

• Mesopotamian spirits and the dangers of applying modern definitions to ancient beliefs.
• Lamashtu, Pazuzu, and the use of frightening beings for protection.
• The Greek daimōn and the changing language of the supernatural.
• Zoroastrian traditions and the complexities of tracing religious influence.
• Genesis 6, the “sons of God,” and the Nephilim.
• The Book of Enoch’s Watchers, giants, and explanation for evil spirits.
• Why Enoch remained scripture in Ethiopian Christianity while most other Christian traditions did not include it in their Bibles.

Research resources

• ORACC — Ancient Mesopotamian Gods and Goddesses. Scholarly reference material on Mesopotamian religion and supernatural beings.
• https://oracc.museum.upenn.edu/amgg/
• The Metropolitan Museum of Art — “Pazuzu: Beyond Good and Evil.” Pazuzu’s protective role and his relationship to Lamashtu.
• https://www.metmuseum.org/exhibitions/listings/2014/assyria-to-iberia/blog/posts/pazuzu
• The Metropolitan Museum of Art — “Amulet with a Lamashtu Demon.” Material evidence of ancient protective practices.
• https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/326961
• Encyclopaedia Iranica — “DĒW.” A scholarly reference on demons in Iranian and Zoroastrian traditions.
• https://www.iranicaonline.org/articles/dew/
• Israel Antiquities Authority — The Leon Levy Dead Sea Scrolls Digital Library. A manuscript archive relevant to Second Temple Judaism and Enochic traditions.
• https://www.deadseascrolls.org.il/explore-the-archive/

Primary texts explored

• Genesis 6:1–4: The “sons of God” and the Nephilim.
• 1 Enoch, especially chapters 6–16: The Watchers, the giants, and the spirits that emerge after their destruction.

Ancient religious texts are discussed as evidence of historical beliefs, alongside modern scholarship and archaeological material.

Coming in part two: We follow these traditions into the New Testament and explore how later theology, literature, and horror helped create the demons we recognize today.

Sign up now for the mailing list to follow the brand new project This Is Who We Become at thisiswhowebecome.com

Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

Privacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

What does it mean to offer sanctuary—and what happens when the demands of conscience come into conflict with the law?

In Part Two of our conversation with historian and author Dr. Lloyd Barba, we continue exploring the legacy of the Sanctuary Movement and its relevance to the world we’re living in today.

Lloyd is the co-author, alongside Sergio M. González, of Sanctuary in America: How Activists Defied the Government and Defended Immigrants—And Why It Still Matters. Their book tells the story of people who mobilized to support immigrants and refugees, and the tensions their actions exposed between faith, government, and moral responsibility. Oxford Academic

As we wrap up this conversation, we invite you to consider what sanctuary can mean beyond the walls of a church—and what it asks of individuals and communities who believe that every person deserves dignity and safety.

If you missed the first half of our conversation, be sure to go back and listen to Part One!

📖 Learn more about the book:

Sanctuary in America by Lloyd D. Barba and Sergio M. González

Something New Is Coming: This Is Who We Become

Every life has a before. Every life has an after.

John’s new podcast, This Is Who We Become, is a series of conversations with people who have experienced moments that changed the course of their lives—and who are willing to share what happened next.

We’ve already announced some of our first guests, and there’s much more to come. Join the mailing list to hear about new guest announcements, launch updates, and upcoming episodes!

✉️ Join the mailing list: https://thisiswhowebecome.com

Thanks for listening to The Deconstructionists! If you enjoyed this conversation, please share it with someone you think would appreciate it and subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts.

Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

Privacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

What happens when following your conscience means breaking the law? And what does it look like when faith moves beyond belief and becomes an act of resistance?

In this episode of The Deconstructionists, we're joined by historian and author Dr. Lloyd Barba to explore the remarkable history of the Sanctuary Movement and his book, Sanctuary in America: How Activists Defied the Government and Defended Immigrants—And Why It Still Matters.

During the 1980s, as refugees fled violence, persecution, and civil wars in Central America, churches and faith communities across the United States began opening their doors to people seeking safety. In defiance of federal immigration policies, religious leaders and everyday Americans risked arrest, prosecution, and their own security to offer sanctuary to vulnerable families.

But the Sanctuary Movement was about much more than immigration. It raised profound questions about the relationship between religion and government, the meaning of justice, and whether following the teachings of Jesus sometimes requires challenging the very institutions that claim to represent Christian values.

In Part 1 of our conversation, we explore the historical roots of sanctuary, the political and religious forces that shaped the movement, and the extraordinary individuals who believed their moral obligations transcended national borders.

Along the way, we wrestle with questions that remain just as relevant today: What does it mean to truly love our neighbors? Where should people of faith draw the line between obedience and resistance? And what can history teach us about the responsibilities we have toward those seeking refuge?

It's a fascinating conversation about faith, courage, compassion, and the power of ordinary people to challenge extraordinary injustice.

About Our Guest

Dr. Lloyd Barba is a historian whose research explores American religion, immigration, and the relationship between faith and social movements. His book, Sanctuary in America: How Activists Defied the Government and Defended Immigrants—And Why It Still Matters, examines the history and enduring significance of the Sanctuary Movement.

Find the book: Sanctuary in America — Book Search

Coming Soon: This Is Who We Become

We're also incredibly excited to share more about our upcoming podcast, This Is Who We Become!

Every life has a before. Every life has an after.

Our new show explores the extraordinary moments that change people's lives forever, featuring deeply personal conversations about survival, transformation, resilience, loss, discovery, and what it means to begin again.

We've already started announcing our first guests, including NASA scientist Dr. Cristina Thomas, survivor and advocate Angela Harger Thompson, and acclaimed author Luis J. Rodriguez—with many more remarkable guests to come!

Help us launch this new chapter!

Visit https://www.thisiswhowebecome.com/ to subscribe to our free mailing list for guest announcements, exclusive updates, and launch news.

And please share the website with friends and family who might enjoy these conversations. Your support means everything as we prepare to bring this new project to life!

Stay Connected with The Deconstructionists

Thank you for listening and for being part of this community. If you enjoyed this conversation, please consider sharing the episode, subscribing to the podcast, and leaving us a rating or review.

Stay tuned for Part 2, where we continue our conversation with Dr. Barba and explore the lasting legacy of the Sanctuary Movement and its relevance to the world we're living in today.

Until next time, keep asking questions.

Enjoy the music on this episode? Check out our friend Clay's tunes anywhere you find your music under his name Forrestclay.

Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

Privacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

Angela Harger Thompson — “Worst T*ts Ever,” Part 2

We return for the concluding half of our conversation with Angela Harger Thompson, actor, filmmaker, and author of Worst Tits Ever.

Across this two-part interview, Angela’s story invites us to consider how trauma and controlling relationships can affect our understanding of ourselves—and what it can mean to reclaim our own narrative. Her memoir brings honesty and dark humor to experiences often surrounded by shame and silence.

Join us for the conclusion of a conversation about survival, the power of storytelling, and the person whose life extends beyond what happened to her.

If you haven’t heard Part 1, we recommend starting there.

Content note: This two-part conversation includes discussions of sexual assault, drugging, abusive relationships, coercive control, and trauma. Please take care of yourself while listening.

Learn more:

• Visit Angela Harger Productions to learn about Angela’s work and memoir, Worst Tits Ever.
• Join the mailing list for This Is Who We Become for guest announcements and launch updates. Every life has a before. Every life has an after.

Special music provided by Forrest Clay from his Recover EP.

If you or someone you know has experienced sexual violence, confidential support is available through the RAINN National Sexual Assault Hotline at 800-656-HOPE (4673) or rainn.org.

Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

Privacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

Angela Harger Thompson — “Worst T*ts Ever,” Part 2

We return for the concluding half of our conversation with Angela Harger Thompson, actor, filmmaker, and author of Worst Tits Ever.

Across this two-part interview, Angela’s story invites us to consider how trauma and controlling relationships can affect our understanding of ourselves—and what it can mean to reclaim our own narrative. Her memoir brings honesty and dark humor to experiences often surrounded by shame and silence.

Join us for the conclusion of a conversation about survival, the power of storytelling, and the person whose life extends beyond what happened to her.

If you haven’t heard Part 1, we recommend starting there.

Content note: This two-part conversation includes discussions of sexual assault, drugging, abusive relationships, coercive control, and trauma. Please take care of yourself while listening.

Learn more:

• Visit Angela Harger Productions to learn about Angela’s work and memoir, Worst Tits Ever.
• Join the mailing list for This Is Who We Become for guest announcements and launch updates. Every life has a before. Every life has an after.

Special music provided by Forrest Clay from his Recover EP.

If you or someone you know has experienced sexual violence, confidential support is available through the RAINN National Sexual Assault Hotline at 800-656-HOPE (4673) or rainn.org.

Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

Privacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

Angela Harger Thompson — “Worst T*ts Ever,” Part 1

Actor, filmmaker, and author Angela Harger Thompson joins The Deconstructionists for the first half of a candid conversation about her memoir, Worst Tits Ever, and the experiences that changed her life.

Angela shares her story of surviving sexual assault, navigating an abusive relationship, and finding herself on a sailing journey that became an increasingly unsafe situation. We explore the difficulty of recognizing abuse from inside a relationship, the shame and self-doubt that can follow trauma, and what it means to tell your story in your own words.

With honesty and dark humor, Angela brings us into a conversation about survival, identity, and reclaiming a voice that others tried to silence.

Content note: This episode includes discussions of sexual assault, drugging, abusive relationships, coercive control, and trauma. Please take care of yourself while listening.

Learn more:

• Visit Angela Harger Productions to learn about Angela’s work and memoir, Worst Tits Ever.
• Join the mailing list for This Is Who We Become, the next chapter after The Deconstructionists. Every life has a before. Every life has an after.

Continue Angela’s story in Part 2.

Special music provided by Forrest Clay from his Recover EP.

If you or someone you know has experienced sexual violence, confidential support is available through the RAINN National Sexual Assault Hotline at 800-656-HOPE (4673) or rainn.org.

Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

Privacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

In Part Two of our conversation with Dr. Janet Kellogg, we explore the growing loss of trust in medicine and science—and what happens when that distrust opens the door to misinformation.

From unsupported claims connecting Tylenol to autism to the broader consequences of rejecting medical expertise, we examine why these ideas gain traction, how fear can travel faster than evidence, and why simply telling people they’re wrong rarely rebuilds trust.

We also discuss the need to hold institutions accountable for genuine failures without abandoning science altogether—and what honesty, humility, and transparency might contribute to restoring public confidence.

New Podcast Coming Soon!

Our new podcast, This Is Who We Become, explores the moments that divide a life into “before” and “after”—and the people we become because of them.

Visit https://thisiswhowebecome.com/ and join the mailing list for upcoming guest announcements, launch updates, and more.

Connect with The Deconstructionists:

Website: https://thedeconstructionists.com/

Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

Privacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

What if accepting evolution didn’t require abandoning faith?

Dr. Janet Kellogg Ray returns to The Deconstructionists to talk about her new book, Fish with Feet: Human Evolution and the Image of God.

Janet is a science educator, author, and Jesus follower who was herself raised within creationism. In her latest book, she tackles one of the most persistent points of tension between modern science and certain expressions of Christianity: human evolution.

In Part One of our conversation, we dig into the remarkable story of how life developed on Earth and eventually produced us—from our ancient aquatic ancestors to primates, early humans, and Homo sapiens. Along the way, Janet helps unpack some of the evidence for evolution found in fossils, anatomy, genetics, and even the strange imperfections built into our own bodies.

We also explore why human evolution remains particularly difficult for many Christians to accept, why familiar objections like “If humans evolved from monkeys, why are there still monkeys?” misunderstand how evolution actually works, and what happens when the scientific evidence appears to conflict with the way we were taught to read Scripture.

And underneath it all is a much bigger question:

If human beings are part of the evolutionary story of life on Earth, what does it actually mean to say that we are made in the image of God?

That’s where things get really interesting.

This is Part One of our conversation with Dr. Janet Kellogg Ray.

Fish with Feet: Human Evolution and the Image of God is available from Eerdmans Publishing and wherever books are sold.

Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

Privacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

After more than ten years of conversations about faith, doubt, theology, identity, and the questions that reshape us, The Deconstructionists is entering its final chapter.

In this special update, John reflects on how the show began, the philosophy that guided it, what has changed in the deconstruction space over the past decade, and why the time feels right to bring the weekly podcast to a close at the end of 2026.

But this isn’t goodbye just yet.

There are still new guests and conversations ahead, the full archive will remain available, and the door will always be open for future special episodes.

John also introduces what comes next: Who We Become, a new podcast exploring the moments that divide our lives into before and after — and the people we become on the other side.

Learn more and join the mailing list at thisiswhowebecome.com.

Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

Privacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

What does it really mean to be present with another person?

In Part Two of John's conversation with Rev. Sally Pelinka Miller, the discussion moves beyond defining modern chaplaincy and into the heart of spiritual care itself.

Rather than offering easy answers or trying to fix people's pain, today's chaplains often practice something much more difficult: accompanying people through uncertainty, grief, trauma, and profound life transitions. In a culture that values certainty, productivity, and quick solutions, this conversation explores the transformative power of simply showing up.

Rev. Sally shares how contemporary chaplains understand their work—not as experts dispensing wisdom, but as compassionate companions helping people navigate some of life's most sacred and challenging moments.

Together, John and Rev. Sally discuss:

• Why presence can be more powerful than having the right words.
• What chaplains can teach all of us about listening.
• The role of empathy, curiosity, and accompaniment in spiritual care.
• How grief, suffering, and meaning intersect.
• Why human connection is becoming increasingly valuable in an age shaped by technology and AI.
• What it looks like to care for people across different faiths, beliefs, and worldviews.
• How we can all become better companions to those who are hurting.
•

Whether you're a person of faith, someone deconstructing long-held beliefs, or simply interested in becoming more present for the people around you, this conversation offers practical wisdom and a hopeful vision of what compassionate care can look like.

Guest:

Rev. Sally Pelinka Miller, MDiv, MA (DMin candidate), is a Board Certified Chaplain (APC), an ACPE Certified Educator, and Manager of Clinical Pastoral Education at The Johns Hopkins Hospital. She is the author of the forthcoming New Images of Spiritual Care, which highlights the diverse voices and innovative practices shaping contemporary chaplaincy.

Follow The Deconstructionists

If you enjoyed this conversation, we'd love your support. Subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts, leave a rating or review, and share this episode with someone who might find it meaningful.

Follow us on social media for episode clips, behind-the-scenes content, and updates on upcoming conversations exploring faith, doubt, history, psychology, and what it means to be human.

Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

Privacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

What comes to mind when you hear the word "chaplain"?

For many of us, it's an older Christian minister carrying a Bible into a hospital room to pray with patients. But what if that image no longer reflects the reality of modern spiritual care?

In Part One of this conversation, John sits down with Rev. Sally Pelinka Miller, board-certified chaplain, ACPE Certified Educator, and Manager of Clinical Pastoral Education at Johns Hopkins Hospital, to explore how chaplaincy has transformed over the past several decades.

Today's chaplains come from an extraordinary range of religious and philosophical traditions—including Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Buddhism, Humanism, Unitarian Universalism, and more. Rather than focusing on converting people or providing religious answers, modern spiritual care emphasizes presence, curiosity, accompaniment, and compassionate listening during life's most vulnerable moments.

Together, John and Rev. Sally discuss:

• Why most of us have an outdated picture of what a chaplain is.
• The fascinating history and evolution of chaplaincy.
• What board-certified chaplains actually do.
• Why spiritual care is about far more than religion.
• How hospitals care for patients with widely different beliefs and worldviews.
• The shift from authority and hierarchy toward relationship and mutuality.
• Why "being present" can sometimes be more healing than having the right answers.

Whether you're deeply religious, spiritually curious, deconstructing your faith, or simply interested in what it means to care well for another human being, this conversation offers a fresh perspective on one of the most misunderstood professions in healthcare.

Guest:

Rev. Sally Pelinka Miller, MDiv, MA (DMin candidate) is a Board Certified Chaplain (APC), an ACPE Certified Educator, and serves as Manager of Clinical Pastoral Education at The Johns Hopkins Hospital. She is currently writing New Images of Spiritual Care, a book exploring the diverse voices and evolving practices shaping modern chaplaincy.

Follow The Deconstructionists

If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe, leave a review, and share it with a friend. Your support helps more people discover thoughtful conversations about faith, doubt, spirituality, history, and the questions that matter most.

Follow us on social media for episode clips, behind-the-scenes content, and updates on upcoming interviews.

Website: www.thedecontructionists.org

Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/c/TheDeconstructionistsPodcast

Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

Privacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

What if one of the Bible's most famous stories isn't really about a hero and a villain?

For centuries, many of us have been taught to read the story of Jacob and Esau through a familiar lens: Jacob, despite his flaws, is God's chosen son, while Esau becomes little more than the cautionary tale of the brother who "despised his birthright." But what happens when we slow down, revisit the text, and listen to voices from within the Jewish tradition?

In this episode of The Deconstructionists, John explores one of Genesis' most fascinating—and misunderstood—relationships. Drawing on insights from Rabbi Jonathan Sacks in Essays on Ethics and Not in God's Name, as well as reflections from Rabbi David Wolpe, this conversation examines how the story of Jacob and Esau challenges simplistic readings of Scripture and invites us into a richer understanding of reconciliation, identity, and what it means to become fully human.

Rather than reading Genesis as a collection of moral fables with obvious heroes and villains, we consider the possibility that the biblical authors were doing something far more profound: exposing the cycles of sibling rivalry, fear, favoritism, and violence that have echoed throughout human history.

Along the way, we explore why Jacob spends so much of his life wrestling—not only with God, but with himself—and why his eventual reunion with Esau may be one of the most emotionally powerful moments in all of Scripture.

Could it be that the real transformation wasn't simply Jacob becoming Israel... but two brothers finally seeing one another clearly?

In This Episode

• Why Jacob and Esau are far more complex than they're often portrayed
• The ancient Near Eastern world behind the Genesis narrative
• Why Jewish interpretations often differ from traditional Christian readings
• What Rabbi Jonathan Sacks means when he argues that Genesis repeatedly challenges sibling rivalry
• How Not in God's Name reframes stories of election and chosenness
• The surprising significance of Jacob's wrestling match before meeting Esau
• Why Jacob sends gifts ahead of himself—and whether they are simply a bribe or something deeper
• Rabbi David Wolpe's reflection on mirrors in the ancient world, and how Jacob and Esau may have seen themselves in one another after decades apart
• The emotional power of forgiveness and reconciliation in Genesis 33
• What Jacob and Esau still have to teach us about family, conflict, identity, and grace today

Books Referenced

• Rabbi Jonathan Sacks — Essays on Ethics
• Rabbi Jonathan Sacks — Not in God's Name: Confronting Religious Violence
• Additional insights discussed from the teachings of Rabbi David Wolpe

A Few Questions We Explore

• Was Jacob always intended to be understood as the hero of this story?
• What does it really mean to be "chosen" in Genesis?
• Why does the Bible spend so much time telling stories about rival siblings?
• What changes when we read Genesis through the lens of Jewish scholarship?
• Is reconciliation ever possible without first confronting who we've become?

Like the music? Check out Forrest Clay anywhere you find your music! The song featured on this episode is "Does God" off his Recover EP.

Love the work we're doing?! Support us by joining the Patreon family here: https://www.patreon.com/c/thedeconstructionistspodcast/membership

Stay up on all things Deconstructionists here: www.thedeconstructionists.org

Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

Privacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

In Part 2 of our conversation with grief coach, author, and podcaster Shelby Forsythia, we dive deeper into her brand-new book, Of Course I'm Here Right Now.

Most of us want to help when someone we love is grieving. The problem is that we've never been taught how. Instead, we fall back on clichés, platitudes, and well-meaning advice that often leaves grieving people feeling even more isolated.

Shelby argues that what grieving people need most isn't fixing, solving, or explaining. They need presence.

In this episode, we explore why grief makes people uncomfortable, how our culture's lack of grief literacy creates secondary losses, and the surprisingly simple phrases that can help someone feel seen and supported during life's hardest moments.

Whether you've experienced profound loss yourself or want to be a better support for someone who has, this conversation offers practical wisdom, compassion, and a fresh way of understanding grief.

In This Episode

• Why grief isn't a problem to solve
• The hidden ways people become isolated after loss
• What NOT to say to someone who is grieving
• Why "at least..." statements often do more harm than good
• The difference between helping and fixing
• How grief changes friendships and relationships
• The role of presence versus advice
• The importance of grief literacy in modern culture
• Practical phrases anyone can use to support a grieving friend
• What inspired Shelby to write Of Course I'm Here Right Now
• Why grief can become one of life's greatest teachers

About Shelby Forsythia

Shelby Forsythia is a grief coach, author, podcast host, and founder of Life After Loss Academy. After losing her mother at a young age, she became what she calls a "student of grief," dedicating her work to helping people navigate life after devastating loss. She is the author of Permission to Grieve, Your Grief, Your Way, and her newest book, Of Course I'm Here Right Now: Three Actually Helpful Things to Say to Someone Grieving.

Connect with Shelby

• Website: Shelby Forsythia Official Website
• Book: Of Course I'm Here Right Now
• Podcast: Coming Back Podcast Archive

Support The Deconstructionists

If you're enjoying these conversations, consider supporting our newly relaunched Patreon. Members receive:

• Ad-free episodes
• Extended conversations and bonus content
• Video versions of select interviews
• Early access to new episodes
• Exclusive Patreon-only content

Join us at:

The Deconstructionists Patreon

Follow The Deconstructionists

• Website: www.thedeconstructionsits.org
• Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/c/thedeconstructionistspodcast

If you enjoyed this episode, please leave a rating and review wherever you listen to podcasts. It helps others discover the show and supports independent creators.

Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

Privacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

What happens when grief changes not just your life… but your identity?

In part one of this conversation, John sits down with author, grief guide, and speaker Shelby Forsythia to discuss her new book and the complicated, deeply human realities of loss, healing, and personal transformation.

Together, they explore the myths we inherit about grief, why so many people feel pressure to “move on” too quickly, and how grief can quietly reshape our relationships, spirituality, and sense of self. Rather than offering clichés or easy answers, Shelby approaches grief with honesty, compassion, and a willingness to sit with uncertainty — something longtime listeners of The Deconstructionists will likely find familiar.

Topics include:

• Why grief is not a linear process
• The cultural pressure to “get over” loss
• How grief impacts identity and spirituality
• Emotional honesty versus performative healing
• Why many people feel isolated in their pain
• The connection between grief and personal growth
• Learning to live alongside loss rather than “defeating” it

Shelby’s work offers a compassionate alternative to the toxic positivity and oversimplified narratives that often surround grief conversations.

If this conversation resonates with you, be sure to subscribe, leave a review, and share the episode with someone who may need it.

Support The Deconstructionists

We’ve officially relaunched our Patreon with new perks and content tiers.

Supporters now get access to:

• Full ad-free episodes
• Bonus content
• Exclusive educational materials
• Video versions of interviews
• Community discussions
• And more content coming soon

You can support the show and join the community here:

[Insert Patreon Link]

Connect With Shelby Forsythia

https://www.shelbyforsythia.com/

Connect With The Deconstructionists

Website: www.thedeconstructionsts.org

Patreon:

If you enjoy the show, leaving a rating or review really does help independent podcasts continue to grow.

Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

Privacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

What if one of the most influential ideas in modern Christianity… didn’t actually come from Jesus?

In this episode of The Deconstructionists Podcast, we explore the history and impact of dualism — the ancient belief that spirit is good while matter, bodies, and the physical world are somehow lesser, corrupt, or evil.

From Plato and Greek philosophy to Gnosticism and modern evangelical culture, we trace how dualistic thinking quietly shaped theology, sexuality, purity culture, views of the body, the afterlife, politics, and even the way many Christians understand salvation itself.

We ask questions like:

• Why have so many Christians viewed the body with suspicion?
• Did the Bible actually teach a sharp divide between “spiritual” and “physical”?
• How did Greek philosophy influence early Christianity?
• Why do some forms of Christianity focus so heavily on “escaping the world”?
• What happens when faith becomes disconnected from embodiment, justice, and humanity?
• And what might a more holistic, integrated spirituality look like?

Along the way, we discuss:

• Plato and the influence of Greek metaphysics
• Gnosticism and the material/spiritual divide
• The Hebrew understanding of embodied humanity
• Paul’s writings and common misunderstandings about “flesh”
• Heaven, resurrection, and the renewal of creation
• Purity culture and body shame
• The lasting influence of dualism on modern evangelicalism
• Deconstruction, embodiment, and recovering wholeness

This conversation explores how ideas developed historically — and how those ideas still shape people’s lives today, often in ways they don’t even realize.

Whether you come from an evangelical background, are in the middle of deconstruction, or are simply interested in theology, philosophy, and history, this episode offers a deeper look at one of the hidden frameworks underneath modern Christianity.

Topics Covered

• Dualism in Christianity
• Plato and Greek philosophy
• Gnosticism
• Embodiment and spirituality
• Resurrection theology
• Purity culture
• Biblical anthropology
• Evangelical theology
• Deconstruction and reconstruction
• Mind/body divide
• Spiritual formation

Support The Deconstructionists

If you enjoy the show and want to support independent conversations like this, consider joining us on Patreon for:

• Ad-free episodes
• Bonus content
• Extended interviews
• Educational deep dives
• Community discussions

Link: https://www.patreon.com/cw/TheDeconstructionistsPodcast

You can also grab merch and find all of our links here:

www.thedeconstructionists.org

Follow The Deconstructionists

• Instagram
• Facebook
• YouTube

If this episode resonated with you, leaving a review and sharing the episode helps more than you know.

Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

Privacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

In Part 2 of our conversation, Bart Ehrman returns to discuss his latest book, Love Thy Stranger, and the lasting impact Jesus’ teachings had on moral thought in the Western world.

We continue exploring how ideas surrounding compassion, forgiveness, charity, and care for outsiders emerged within early Christianity — while also wrestling with the ways institutions and political movements have often failed to embody those same values.

In this episode we discuss:

• The tension between the teachings of Jesus and modern political Christianity
• Immigration, nationalism, and “loving your neighbor”
• How moral frameworks evolve over time
• The role Christianity played in shaping Western ethics
• Historical misunderstandings about the ancient world
• Why empathy and human dignity remain central themes in Jesus’ message

Be sure to check out Dr. Ehrman’s new book, Love Thy Stranger, available now wherever books are sold.

Guest Bio

Bart Ehrman is a New Testament scholar, historian of early Christianity, and the author of numerous bestselling books including Misquoting Jesus, Heaven and Hell, Jesus Interrupted, and How Jesus Became God. He is the James A. Gray Distinguished Professor of Religious Studies at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill.

Support The Deconstructionists

If you enjoy the show, there are several ways to support us:

• Join our Patreon for ad-free episodes, bonus content, educational videos, study guides, and more
• Check out our merch store for brand-new designs and returning favorites
• Leave a rating and review on your favorite podcast platform
• Share the episode with a friend

More info at: www.thedeconstructionsts.org

Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

Privacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

Dr. Bart Ehrman – Love Thy Stranger: How the Teachings of Jesus Transformed the Moral Conscience of the West (Part 1)

In Part 1 of our conversation with renowned New Testament scholar and historian Dr. Bart Ehrman, we dive into his latest book, "Love Thy Stranger: How the Teachings of Jesus Transformed the Moral Conscience of the West".

For centuries, people have debated whether Christianity has been a force for compassion or division. But what if one of the most radical moral ideas in human history came directly from the teachings of Jesus himself?

In this episode, Bart explores how concepts like caring for the poor, loving enemies, and extending compassion beyond one’s tribe were not common moral assumptions in the ancient world—and how the teachings attributed to Jesus helped reshape Western moral imagination over time.

We also discuss:

• What morality looked like in the ancient Greco-Roman world
• Why compassion was often viewed as weakness in antiquity
• The historical context surrounding Jesus’ teachings
• The difference between Jesus’ message and later Christian institutions
• Whether modern secular morality still carries the fingerprints of Christianity
• Why many people misunderstand the historical Jesus
• The tension between the teachings of Jesus and modern Christian nationalism
• How history complicates simplistic narratives about religion’s role in society

As always, this conversation approaches faith, history, and culture through the lens of scholarship, curiosity, and honest dialogue.

About Dr. Bart Ehrman

Dr. Bart Ehrman is one of the world’s leading scholars on the New Testament and early Christianity. He is the James A. Gray Distinguished Professor of Religious Studies at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill and the author of numerous bestselling books including:

• "Misquoting Jesus"
• "Jesus, Interrupted"
• "Heaven and Hell"
• "Armageddon"

His work focuses on the historical Jesus, the development of early Christianity, biblical manuscripts, and how religious ideas evolve over time.

Support The Deconstructionists

If you enjoy conversations like this and want to help support independent podcasts and educational content, there are several great ways to support the show:

Join Our Patreon

We recently relaunched our Patreon with brand-new content and community features including:

• Ad-free episodes
• Bonus episodes
• Educational videos and study guides
• Monthly book club
• Members-only discussions and chat
• Exclusive behind-the-scenes content

👉 Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/thedeconstructionists

Merch Store

We also launched brand-new merch designs along with returning fan favorites.

👉 Merch Store: https://thedeconstructionists.printify.me/

Leave a Review

One of the easiest free ways to support the show is by leaving a positive review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. It genuinely helps more people discover the podcast.

Connect With Us

Website: https://www.thedeconstructionists.org/

Bart Ehrman Links

Official Website: https://www.bartehrman.com/

Books & Courses:https://www.bartehrman.com/books/

Blog:https://ehrmanblog.org/

Thank you for listening to The Deconstructionists Podcast.

Part 2 of our conversation with Dr. Bart Ehrman will be available soon.

Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

Privacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

In Part 2 of our conversation with Lillian Daniel, we move deeper into the tensions at the heart of her story—and the bigger questions it raises for the modern church.

If Part 1 explored what happened, this episode asks what it means.

We talk about accountability, institutional systems, and whether the church is actually capable of handling failure in a way that leads to healing rather than harm.

📚 About Lillian Daniel

Lillian Daniel is an ordained minister in the United Church of Christ and currently serves as a Conference Minister, overseeing churches and clergy across Michigan.

She has taught preaching at institutions including Yale Divinity School and the University of Chicago, and is the author of multiple books on faith, ministry, and the evolving role of the church.

Her latest book, Defrocked: Good News from a Bad Pastor for a Better Church, explores her own experience with discipline, failure, and restoration—and what it reveals about the systems meant to hold leaders accountable.

🔗 Stay Connected

• Website: https://www.thedeconstructionists.org

• Patreon: Support the show and get ad-free, extended interviews: https://www.patreon.com/cw/TheDeconstructionistsPodcast

• Follow along for more conversations with scholars, authors, and thinkers exploring faith, doubt, and everything in between

Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

Privacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

📝 Episode Summary

Drawing from her new book, Defrocked: Good News from a Bad Pastor for a Better Church, Lillian shares her journey through ministry, the unexpected challenges she encountered, and the moments that forced her to rethink long-held assumptions about leadership, faith, and belonging.

This episode is an honest look at what happens when certainty begins to crack—and why that might not be the end of faith, but the beginning of something more real.

📚 About the Book

Defrocked: Good News from a Bad Pastor for a Better Church

A candid and often humorous reflection on ministry, failure, and the possibility of a more honest and compassionate church. Lillian Daniel offers a rare behind-the-scenes look at pastoral life—challenging assumptions while pointing toward a healthier future.

👤 About the Guest

Lillian Daniel is a United Church of Christ minister, author, and speaker known for her wit, honesty, and thoughtful critique of modern church culture. Her work often explores faith, doubt, leadership, and the evolving role of the church in contemporary life.

🔗 Resources & Links

• Find Lillian’s book wherever books are sold

• Learn more about her work and writing: www.lilliandaniel.com

🎙️ Support the Show

If you enjoyed this episode, you can support The Deconstructionists Podcast by:

• Joining our Patreon for ad-free episodes, bonus content, and educational videos: https://www.patreon.com/cw/TheDeconstructionistsPodcast

• Checking out our merch store (ships worldwide): https://thedeconstructionists.printify.me/

• Leaving a rating & review—it really helps others find the show

Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

Privacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy