The Human Risk Podcast

What does it actually take to prevent sexual harassment at work? Policies, training, reporting mechanisms and statements of zero tolerance are one thing. Creating a workplace where sexual harassment is genuinely less likely to happen is something else entirely.

Episode Summary
In this episode, I talk to Dr Nina Burrowes, a psychologist who has spent more than 20 years working on the psychology of sexual harm and is the author of All Reasonable Steps: How Psychology Transforms Workplace Sexual Harassment Prevention.

Nina argues that organisations need to stop treating sexual harassment simply as a compliance problem and recognise it as a human one. Weexplore why conventional training can become little more than “solution theatre”; why a lack of reports doesn’t necessarily mean a lack of problems; why automatically escalating incidents to HR can have unintended consequences; and why prevention requires people to have the skills and confidence to intervene before situations escalate.

The conversation also goes much wider than sexual harassment, exploring what happens when organisations try to manage messy human behaviour through neat rules and processes — and why trust, feedback, consent, judgement and psychological safety matter across organisational life.

Ultimately, Nina offers a different way of thinking about healthy cultures: not places where nothing ever goes wrong, but places with the maturity and skills to respond intelligently when it does.

Guest Profile - Dr Nina Burrowes
Nina is a psychologist, author and founder of The Consent Collective. Her work focuses on the psychology of sexual harm and helping organisations move from compliance towards meaningful prevention.

AI-Generated Timestamped Summary
00:00 — Introduction: when organisational solutions don’t solve human problems
02:30 — Nina’s journey into the psychology of sexual harm
08:15 — All Reasonable Steps: from compliance to prevention
13:45 — Why workplaces have a role to play
17:15 — The illusion of simple solutions
21:30 — Understanding who causes harm — and why
27:00 — Moving beyond “stranger danger”
30:30 — The danger of “that doesn’t happen here”
37:00 — Creating a culture where difficult conversations can happen
42:00 — Sexual harassment as a cultural stress test
47:00 — When everything becomes an HR problem
52:00 — Why HR isn’t the culture
55:00 — AI and the future of Human Risk
56:30 — Consent as a transferable human skill
01:00:30 — Building organisations that walk the talk

Resources
Nina's website, including details of her book 'All Reasonable Steps' - https://www.ninaburrowes.com/

The Consent Collective - https://www.consentcollective.com/

The Consent Collective — Workplace Sexual Harassment Prevention
https://www.consentcollective.com/workplace

What can financial markets teach us about human behaviour? Why might the size of a CEO’s signature tell us something useful about the company they run? And why, even when smart investors know something is probably a bubble, might they keep investing anyway?

Episode Summary
My guest on this episode is Professor Alex Edmans, who returns to the show to discuss his new book, The Madness of Markets: Why Smart Investors Make Crazy Decisions and How to Exploit Them. As the title suggests, this is a book about financial markets. But our conversation is really about something much broader: human behaviour.

Markets ought to be places where irrationality gets eliminated. They contain millions of participants, huge amounts of data and some of the smartest and best-paid people in the world. Yet people still overreact, follow the herd, become overconfident, refuse to admit mistakes and pay attention to things that shouldn't matter.

Alex explains why that happens and what it can teach us about decision-making beyond investing.We explore why seemingly trivial information can move markets, the fine line between conviction and delusion, and why information that's hiding in plain sight can sometimes tell us more than sophisticated financial analysis. Alex share why corporate jets, unusual locations for shareholder meetings and even the size of a CEO's signature can offer clues about how a company is run.

We also discuss information overload and our preference for things we can measure, why more disclosure isn't necessarily better disclosure, and how organisations can exploit the limits of human attention — including the strategic release of bad news on Friday afternoons.

He also considers the impact of AI; machines can process enormous quantities of quantitative information without some of our human biases, but qualitative judgements about character, culture and trustworthiness may still require people. The future, Alex argues, isn't necessarily human or machine, but human and machine. Along the way, we explore bubbles, loss aversion, sunk costs, incentives in investment banking, financial literacy and regulation.

And, ultimately, we return to a simple idea: markets behave irrationally because they're made up of human beings.

Guest Biography
Alex Edmans is Professor of Finance at London Business School, an author, speaker and expert on behavioural finance, responsible business and corporate governance. Before entering academia, Alex worked in investment banking at Morgan Stanley. His research has been widely published, and he has won numerous awards for teaching. His previous books include Grow the Pie and May Contain Lies, the latter of which was the subject of his previous appearance on the podcast.

Links
Alex Edmans' website: https://alexedmans.com/

Alex Edmans on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/aedmans/

The Madness of Markets: https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/821903/the-madness-of-markets-by-alex-edmans/

Alex's previous appearance on the show — Professor Alex Edmans on Misinformation: https://www.humanriskpodcast.com/professor-alex-edmans-on-misinformation/

AI-Generated Timestamped Summary
[00:00:00] Introduction — what financial markets can teach us about human behaviour

[00:01:45] Why Alex wrote The Madness of Markets and why markets are driven by psychology as well as economics

[00:03:15] Markets as a laboratory for human behaviour — if millions of investors can get things wrong, what does that tell us about small groups making decisions?

[00:04:40] Three types of mistakes: overreaction, underreaction and focusing on the wrong information

[00:06:20] Loss aversion and the sunk cost fallacy — why admitting a previous decision was wrong is so difficult

[00:07:20] Combining memorable anecdotes with large-scale evidence, from Isaac Newton to market bubbles

[00:08:45] Why highly intelligent and sophisticated investors still make systematic mistakes

[00:10:40] Finding signals in unexpected places — why more data isn't necessarily better data

[00:12:20] What corporate jets, remote shareholder meetings, CEO photographs and signature sizes might reveal about leadership[

00:14:00] Information hiding in plain sight and how Alex's collection of unusual academic research became a book

[00:17:00] Why more corporate disclosure isn't necessarily helpful — and our preference for quantitative over qualitative information

[00:19:30] Creativity, silos and finding connections that other people miss

[00:21:00] Football, national mood and the stock market — demonstrating how emotion can affect prices

[00:23:00] Recognising our own humanity and why stress and emotion affect even highly experienced decision-makers

[00:24:00] AI and investing — what machines can do better and where human qualitative judgement still matters

[00:26:30] Why market inefficiencies don't disappear even after researchers reveal them

[00:28:00] Knowing there's a bubble but continuing to invest — why being right in the long term can still get you into trouble in the short term

[00:30:00] Investment horizons, other people's money and why your objectives determine what counts as a sensible decision

[00:31:40] Information overload — why watching markets too closely can make investors worse at investing

[00:33:15] How these principles extend beyond financial markets to housing, collectibles and other major decisions

[00:35:20] Mergers and acquisitions, investment bankers and the problem of misaligned incentives

[00:37:00] How organisations exploit human attention — including why bad news tends to arrive on Friday afternoons

[00:39:00] Could changing when and how we work help us notice information that everyone else misses?

[00:41:00] How writing the book changed Alex's own investment decisions, from rebalancing tech holdings to paying attention to fees

[00:43:00] Why Alex hasn't set up his own investment fund and how he applies behavioural insights to his portfolio

[00:46:00] Taking the broader view — why Alex prefers researching, teaching and explaining markets to running money

[00:48:00] Why The Madness of Markets was really 22 years in the making

[00:50:00] Democratising investing, financial literacy and helping people understand the risks they're taking

[00:53:30] Regulation, hidden costs and why making the right information salient may be more useful than simply providing more information

[00:55:45] Are markets really crazy — or are they simply an unusually visible example of humans being human?

[00:58:00] Why the lessons of the book ultimately go far beyond investing

What if understanding regulation could help us spot when politicians are promising the impossible? Regulation sounds simple in theory. Something poses a risk, so we create rules and a regulator to control it. In practice, things get complicated very quickly. It's something we all benefit from, but equally can experience as redtape that prevents us from doing what we think we ought to be able to.

On this episode, I'm exploring the inner workings of regulation; so whether you are a regulator, a compliance officer, work in a regulated industry or just a member of the public, this'll help you understand what is and isn't possible and why regulation can often seem ineffective or overbearing.

Episode summary
My guests on this episode are Lyndon Nelson and Gavin Stewart, two highly experienced former financial regulators and authors of Building Better Regulators: The Art of the Impossible.

Regulators are expected to protect consumers, maintain stability, encourage competition, support innovation and increasingly promote economic growth. The problem is that those objectives don't always point in the same direction. As Lyndon and Gavin explain, making trade-offs is part of regulation; pretending those trade-offs don't exist is where things become problematic.

In our conversation, we explore the tension between rules and principles, why firms don't always respond to regulation in the way regulators expect, and how enforcement involves choices about which cases not to pursue. We also look at regulatory perimeters, the hidden costs of collecting data, and why having more information doesn't necessarily lead to better regulation.

We also discuss AI and crypto, behavioural science, consumer protection, international regulation, the temptation to fight the last war, and why regulators need imagination as well as analysis. Ultimately, this is a conversation about regulation as a human system — shaped by incentives, politics, judgement, uncertainty and the behaviour of both regulators and the regulated.

Guest bios
Lyndon Nelson spent 33 years at the Bank of England, much of it working in regulation, and ultimately became Deputy CEO of the Prudential Regulation Authority (PRA). Since leaving the Bank, he has worked with organisations including London Business School and the International Monetary Fund.

Gavin Stewart began his career as a banking supervisor at the Bank of England before moving to the Financial Services Authority (FSA), where he held a variety of senior roles. He later became Chief Risk Officer at the Financial Conduct Authority (FCA) and subsequently worked in the private sector.Together, they are the authors of Building Better Regulators: The Art of the Impossible, a book designed to help regulators — and those who interact with them — better understand the practical realities of regulation.

Links

• Building Better Regulators: The Art of the Impossible — book website
• The Enforcement Game — try the exercise discussed in the episode
• Lyndon Nelson on LinkedIn
• Gavin Stewart on LinkedIn

AI-Generated Timestamped Summary
00:00 Why regulation matters — and the trade-offs politicians often prefer not to acknowledge

03:00 Meet Lyndon Nelson and Gavin Stewart

05:00 Why they wrote the book — and why regulation is so badly understood

07:00 The impossible mandates politicians give regulators

10:00 Primary objectives, secondary objectives and the problem of “have regards”

14:00 Why understanding regulatory failure doesn’t mean letting regulators off the hook

18:00 Regulation as a fundamentally human and behavioural endeavour

21:00 How firms respond to, interpret and game regulation

22:00 Rules vs principles — the impossible search for certainty and flexibility

28:00 Enforcement: what happens when regulators have more cases than resources

31:00 Choosing whom to enforce against — severity, coverage and the “splash test”

34:00 Who are rules really written for — the compliant, the gamers or the criminals?

38:00 The regulatory perimeter — and why technology makes boundaries increasingly difficult

44:00 BCCI, Barings, Wirecard and FTX: the challenge of regulating across borders

48:00 Why more regulatory data doesn’t necessarily produce better regulation

59:00 The “Maginot Line” problem: regulating to prevent the last crisis rather than the next one

01:01:00 Failure of imagination, stress testing and learning to think the unthinkable

01:04:00 Accountability regimes, senior managers and regulation as an ongoing experiment

01:09:00 The industry that interprets regulation — and the strange business of regulatory “Kremlinology”

01:13:00 Who should work for regulators — career regulators, industry secondees and the value of both

01:17:00 Should regulators be better at following the standards they impose on others?

01:19:00 What “risk-based regulation” actually means — and why regulators struggle to admit they have a risk appetite

01:22:00 Why better public debate about regulation matters — and final thoughts on the book.

What if AI could help us understand people better, rather than simply replacing what humans do?

Episode summary
How can we use AI to become better at persuasion, communication and understanding human behaviour? My guest on this episode is Roger Dooley, author of The Persuasion Engine, a new book exploring what happens when behavioural science meets rapidly evolving technology.

Roger argues that tools once available only to large organisations — from behavioural science expertise to eye-tracking — are becoming accessible to almost anyone. We explore how AI can act as a personal “nudge unit”, helping us apply ideas from behavioural science, test communications and understand how different audiences might respond.We also discuss why simply asking an AI for an answer isn't enough, how to push LLMs beyond predictable responses, and why human judgement remains essential.

Roger introduces his idea of a “60-second audit” — using AI to identify how communications might be misunderstood or backfire before we send them.Along the way, we talk about Cialdini, cognitive biases, invisible calls-to-action, board papers, cultural disasters, AI collaborators, rally driving, long division and why the best analogy for AI might be a power tool rather than a replacement for human thinking.

Guest bio
Roger Dooley is an author, speaker and behavioural science expert who has spent years exploring a deceptively simple question: why do people do what they do?

His latest book, The Persuasion Engine (Wiley, 2026), looks at what happens when behavioural science meets AI — and how tools once available only to big companies with big budgets are now becoming accessible to almost anyone.Roger is also the author of Friction, named a Top 3 Management Book by PwC’s strategy+business, and Brainfluence, which has been published in 11 languages.

He brings an unusually practical perspective to the subject. Roger co-founded College Confidential and today he combines that entrepreneurial experience with behavioural science in his writing, speaking and teaching.He is a lecturer at McCombs Business School, a Forbes contributor and host of the Brainfluence podcast — and his work focuses on helping organisations understand people better, remove unnecessary friction and communicate in ways that actually work.

AI-Generated Timestamped Summary
00:00 — What if AI could be your behavioural scientist?
05:00 — Cialdini, behavioural science and why people don’t know why they decide
10:00 — Eye-tracking, attention and what people actually notice
15:00 — Making important information more visible
20:00 — Board reports, visual hierarchy and designing for human attention
25:00 — Better prompting and getting AI beyond obvious answers
30:00 — What happens to human expertise when AI knows the theory?
35:00 — Reactance, unintended consequences and communications that backfire
40:00 — Cultural context, reputation and Roger’s “60-second audit”
45:00 — Using AI to become better at understanding other audiences
50:00 — Roger’s lifelong interest in technology and what comes next
55:00 — Cognitive offloading, critical judgement and rally driving
57:00 — Why AI is best thought of as a power tool

Links to topics discussed

• The Persuasion Engine— Roger’s latest book on how AI, behavioural science and neuromarketing tools are becoming accessible to organisations of all sizes.
• Roger's previous appearance on this podcast talking about Friction.
• https://www.rogerdooley.com/ — Roger’s website, including his books, articles, speaking and latest work.
• Roger on LinkedIn — where Roger regularly shares ideas on behavioural science, persuasion, AI and marketing.
• The Brainfluence Podcast— Roger’s podcast exploring behaviour, persuasion, neuroscience and business.
• Roger’s episode on The Persuasion Engine — his own introduction to the ideas behind the book, including what he calls “Neuromarketing 2.0”.
• Friction — Roger’s previous book, and the subject of his earlier appearance on The Human Risk Podcast.

What’s the last thing you learned simply because you wanted to know?

Episode summary
Why do we feel the need to justify what we learn? My guest on this episode is Annie Wagstaff, a musician and composer whose career has taken her around the world touring with Take That and into writing music for advertising. But alongside her work in music, Annie has developed another passion: learning about whatever happens to make her curious.That could be vine tomatoes, animals, colour, knots, the human body, or simply something she notices while walking through a supermarket.

Annie shares what she discovers on social media, not because the knowledge necessarily has an obvious purpose, but because she finds it interesting. And that raises a fascinating question: what happens to the natural curiosity we have as children as we become adults?In our conversation, we explore creativity and constraints, sonic branding, why children pick up stones while adults tell them to put them down, the pleasure of knowing a little about a lot, short attention spans and hyperfocus, authenticity in an age of AI, and why learning something without knowing what you’re going to do with it might be exactly the point.We also talk about Take That, vine tomatoes, staring at flowers, doomscrolling, notebooks, knots and sailing — the kind of eclectic mix that an episode about curiosity really ought to contain.

Guest bio
Annie Wagstaff is a London-based guitarist, musician and composer.She has worked as a session musician, toured internationally with Take That, and composes music for advertising and other commercial projects.

Earlier in her career, Annie also released her own music and built a large following online through her guitar playing.More recently, she has used her social channels to share the things she learns simply because they interest her — turning subjects ranging from science and animals to everyday observations into short, accessible explorations of curiosity.

AI-Generated Timestamped Summary
00:00 — Why curiosity matters
05:00 — Touring the world with Take That
10:00 — Writing music for advertising
15:00 — Sonic branding and the power of sound
17:00 — From “Guitar Girl” to curiosity creator
22:00 — Vine tomatoes and unexpected rabbit holes
25:00 — Why children are naturally curious
34:00 — Flowers, distraction and noticing the world
38:00 — Becoming a “knowledge butterfly”
45:00 — Authenticity, social media and AI
50:00 — Why does knowledge need a purpose?
55:00 — Rediscovering curiosity — from five minutes to sailing

Links

• Annie's Website: https://anniewagstaff.com including her books
• TikTok: @annieplaysguitar on TikTok
• LinkedIn: Annie Wagstaff on LinkedIn
• Instagram: @annieplaysguitar on Instagram
• YouTube: Annie Plays Guitar on YouTube

What happens when someone who spends his life thinking about risk, decision-making and human behaviour is confronted with an uncertainty he simply can’t control?

Episode summary
My guest is Paul Craven, a behavioural scientist, former investment professional, magician and keynote speaker, and one of my favourite people to talk to. When we sat down to record this episode, I noticed that Paul’s voice sounded different.

His explanation — that he had recently been diagnosed with oral cancer — took our conversation in an unexpected and deeply personal direction.We explore what his experience has taught him about uncertainty, why he deliberately chose not to Google his diagnosis, and the difference between having information and having useful information.

From there, we explore luck and skill, decision and gratitude journals, relationships versus transactions, the dangers of binary thinking, and why sometimes the best thing you can do when you’re in a bad mood is go for a walk in the rain. It’s a conversation about behavioural science, but also about perspective, paying attention and what we discover about ourselves when life doesn’t go according to plan.

Key themes

• Living with uncertainty and the psychological value of having a plan
• Why more information isn’t always better information
• AI, search engines and our desire for certainty
• Nuance versus binary thinking
• Luck, skill and decision journals
• Gratitude and paying attention to what matters
• Relationships versus transactions
• Storytelling, lived experience and different ways of seeing the world
• Chameleon Thinking and the value of changing perspective

Guest Profile - Paul Craven
Paul is a behavioural scientist, keynote speaker and former investment professional who brings together insights from psychology, behavioural science, finance and magic to explore how people really think and make decisions.

Links

• Paul Craven — speaker profile and booking enquiries
• Paul Craven’s website
• Iain McGilchrist
• Martin Shaw
• Mark Vernon

Paul’s previous appearances on the Human Risk Podcast
Solo: Paul Craven on Magic, Money & The Mind

With Gerald Ashley: Gerald Ashley & Paul Craven on Statistics, Spreadsheets & Scam Artistsand Paul Craven & Gerald Ashley on Context, Consequences & Changeability

With Rory Sutherland: Rory Sutherland & Paul Craven on Alchemy & Magicand Paul Craven & Rory Sutherland on Magic & Alchemy

With Rory Sutherland & Gerald Ashley at Abbey Road
https://www.humanriskpodcast.com/rory-sutherland-gerald-ashley-paul-craven-at-abbey-road-part-one/
Timestamped summary
00:00 — Introduction

01:35 — Paul’s diagnosis and living with uncertainty
Paul reveals his cancer diagnosis and reflects on why not knowing can sometimes be harder than receiving difficult news.

07:00 — Medicine, empathy and different perspectives
What Paul’s experience of the NHS taught him about communication, multidisciplinary thinking and the importance of context.

10:00 — Appreciating life, stories and walking in the rain
From Iain McGilchrist and Martin Shaw to Rowan Williams’ wonderfully simple advice for dealing with a bad mood.

17:10 — Reframing, Chameleon Thinking and “All shall be well”
Why changing perspective can help us navigate difficult circumstances — including Paul’s own illness.

25:45 — Why Paul chose not to Google his cancer
The risks of searching without context, what AI adds to the problem, and why life rarely provides simple binary answers.

31:20 — Luck, skill and keeping journals
What investment management can teach us about hindsight, decision quality and the value of both decision and gratitude journals.

37:20 — Relationships, transactions and the limits of efficiency
Why trust and relationships matter, and what can be lost when we optimise purely for efficiency.

43:25 — Authenticity, AI and Chesterton’s Fence
The value of individuality in an AI-mediated world and why we should understand what we’re discarding before we replace it.

47:10 — Wisdom under every rock
Paul brings together the themes of reframing, curiosity and learning from different perspectives.

49:10 — An update on Paul
Christian shares encouraging news following Paul’s surgery and looks forward to welcoming him back to the show.

Why do we rate everything and why do we do so on a scale of one to five stars? What happens when systems designed to help us make better choices start influencing our behaviour in ways we don’t necessarily notice?

Episode Summary
My guest is Benji Wilson, a journalist, TV critic and author of Rate This Book. Benji’s day job involves rating other people’s work, but when his children pointed out that Rotten Tomatoes was also rating him, it prompted him to investigate the ratings culture that surrounds us. In our conversation, we explore where ratings came from, why the five-star system became dominant and the psychology that makes us pay attention to the opinions of people we’ve never met.

We discuss social proof and the wisdom of crowds, why we often use ratings to avoid making bad decisions rather than to identify the very best option, and what happens when reviews are fake, manipulated or simply unfair.

We also explore the consequences of moving from rating products and services to rating people, including Uber drivers, hospitality workers and doctors, and why a single negative review can have significant consequences.Benji also explains how ratings might have applications in places we wouldn’t necessarily expect, including workplace appraisals and even democracy, where alternative voting systems use ratings to allow people to express more nuanced preferences.

And, appropriately for someone who has written a book called Rate This Book, we discuss what it feels like when the ratings are turned back on you — including why an anonymous three-star review might actually be more useful than a perfect five-star score.

Guest Profile
Benji is a journalist, author and TV critic. His book, Rate This Book, explores how ratings and reviews came to dominate modern life, the psychology that makes them work and what happens when the systems designed to help us make choices begin shaping those choices themselves.

Links

• Benji's website — more about Benji and his work.
• Rate This Book — How Star Ratings Took Over the World, published by New Modern Arcade.
• Rate This Book audiobook — read by Benji Wilson.

AI-Generated Timestamped Summary

00:00 — Introduction: why we rate everything
01:45 — Benji’s life as a TV critic and discovering that Rotten Tomatoes was also rating him.
03:30 — Where ratings came from, from our instinct to rank things to the emergence of star ratings.
08:30 — The psychology of ratings: prospect theory, avoiding bad decisions and why we rely on other people’s opinions.
10:15 — Why five stars became the dominant rating system.
16:00 — Experts versus crowds, social proof and why thousands of reviews can feel so persuasive.
20:00 — Fake reviews, manipulated ratings and why critical thinking still matters.
25:00 — What happens when we move from rating products to rating people — and the real-world consequences of negative reviews.
29:30 — Reputation management, review blackmail and whether ratings platforms need greater regulation.
33:30 — Ratings and democracy: could STAR voting offer a less binary way of choosing politicians?38:30 — Workplace appraisals, reciprocal ratings and what happens when a numerical score overwhelms everything else.
43:00 — Uber and how our relationship with rating systems changes over time.
44:30 — What it feels like to have Rate This Book rated — including Benji’s mysterious three-star review.
47:30 — Why three stars may be our most natural — and least useful — rating.
52:30 — How writing the book changed Benji’s own behaviour and why trusted personal recommendations can beat aggregated reviews.
56:30 — Why companies really want our ratings and the commercial incentives behind endless requests for feedback.
01:01:00 — Amazon Vine, gamification and how rating systems can influence the people doing the rating.
01:02:30 — Where to find Benji and Rate This Book, plus the inevitable invitation to rate both the book and the podcast.

What parts of yourself have you learned to hide in order to be taken seriously? My guest on this episode is Mark Heywood, a friend of the show, returning guest and someone I've collaborated with on a number of projects.

Episode Summary & Guest Profile
Mark has spent more than twenty years working in crisis management and operational resilience, while simultaneously building a successful career as a bestselling novelist, screenwriter and, more recently, stand-up comedian.

On the morning we recorded this conversation, Mark published an article marking his fifty-first birthday. In it, he reflected on the pressure many of us feel to present only one version of ourselves professionally, arguing that his creative and corporate lives were never really separate.

As he puts it, they were 'not two jobs, but one obsession wearing two different lanyards.' That simple idea becomes the starting point for a much wider discussion about the stories we tell ourselves, and the stories organisations tell themselves.

Along the way we explore:

• Why "stay in your lane" may say more about other people's expectations than your own potential.
• Why organisations often encourage people to bring their whole selves to work, while rewarding conformity.
• What interviews, dress codes and organisational culture reveal about human behaviour.
• Why stories often influence behaviour more effectively than rules, policies and frameworks.
• What films can teach us about operational resilience, cybersecurity and crisis management.
• Why the Titanic remains one of the most powerful lessons in organisational failure.
• How imagination is a strategic capability rather than a soft skill.
• Why thinking through "severe but plausible" scenarios requires organisations to become better storytellers.

Links

• Mark's birthday article: "A Birthday Declaration from Someone Who Spent Over Twenty Years Pretending to Be Half of Himself" (LinkedIn)

• Mark's Behind The Spine podcast

• The Writing Salon

• Behind The Spine podcast

• Mark on LinkedIn

• Mark's previous appearances on the show talking about The Creative Industries under COVID, and Human Risk in the Creative Industries

• Films, Stories & People Mentioned

• Die Hard
• Apollo 13
• The Martian
• The Odyssey (Christopher Nolan)
• Don't Look Up
• Snakes on a Plane
• Sharknado
• Noah's Ark
• RMS Titanic
• Rachel Heyhoe Flint
• Jeremy King

AI-Generated Timestamped Summary
00:00 – Why do we hide parts of ourselves to be taken seriously?

03:40 – Mark explains why he stopped separating his creative and corporate identities.

08:00 – Which hobbies and outside interests are considered professionally acceptable—and why?

10:30 – Job interviews, authenticity and bringing your whole self to work.

16:00 – Jeremy King on why behaviour matters more than dress codes.

19:00 – Rachel Heyhoe Flint, the MCC and what institutional rules reveal about culture.

23:00 – Why stories influence behaviour more effectively than rules.

24:00 – The Trojan Horse and using films to teach cybersecurity and resilience.

29:00 – The Titanic as a lesson in organisational resilience rather than maritime history.

32:00 – Conduct versus outcomes: why testing matters more than compliance.

36:00 – Using stories and popular culture to make risk real.

38:00 – Noah's Ark, history and the enduring power of storytelling.

40:30 – CrowdStrike, PPE and why organisations keep repeating the same mistakes.

46:00 – Stories aren't predictions—they're a way of exploring possibility.

49:00 – A ransomware exercise and the danger of relying on fixed policies.

52:00 – Returning to the Titanic: preparing for the inquiry before the crisis.

55:00 – Thinking like an attacker and challenging assumptions about cyber risk.

58:00 – Taylor Swift, insurance and why seemingly ordinary data can become highly sensitive.

1:02:00 – The idea of "risk inflation" and why yesterday's rules aren't enough.

1:10:00 – Why memorable stories change behaviour more effectively than realistic scenarios.

1:15:00 – Reverse stress testing and imagining what could really break an organisation.

1:20:00 – RAG ratings, reporting and the danger of looking resilient instead of being resilient.

1:23:00 – Final reflections on creativity, identity and why being more than one thing is a strength.

When something goes badly wrong, we investigate it. Reports are written. Recommendations are made. Lessons are identified. But do we actually learn them?

Episode Summary
Returning to the show, Gill Kernick joins me to discuss the substantially revised second edition of her book about the Grenfell Tower disaster, following the publication of the Grenfell Inquiry's final report. Gill has a unique perspective on Grenfell. She lived on the 21st floor of the tower before moving out three years before the fire. Professionally, she has spent decades helping organisations in high-hazard industries understand leadership, safety and major accidents.

When Gill first appeared on the podcast, the Inquiry was still underway. Seven years later, its conclusions have revealed an even more disturbing picture—not of one catastrophic mistake, but of systemic failure involving government, regulators, manufacturers, certification bodies and the construction industry.

But this episode isn't just about Grenfell. It's about why organisations struggle to learn from failure, why compliance isn't the same as understanding, why we crave simple explanations for complex problems, and why genuine learning is much harder than writing another report. If you haven't already listened to Gill's previous appearances on the podcast, I'd strongly recommend doing so. Together, the conversations chart how understanding evolves as new evidence emerges.

What you'll learn In this episode
In a wide-ranging discussion, we explore:

• Why Gill decided to write a second edition after the Grenfell Inquiry concluded
• The shocking scale of the systemic failures uncovered by the Inquiry
• Why disasters rarely have a single root cause
• The hidden dangers of deregulation and "compliance theatre"
• Why organisations identify lessons but rarely learn them
• The importance of understanding the spirit—not just the letter—of regulation
• Why complexity requires different kinds of leadership
• How AI might help organisations learn lessons in real time
• Why hope is, as Gill puts it, "an act of resistance"

AI-Generated.Timestamp Summary
00:00 – Do we really learn lessons from disasters?
02:45 – Gill's personal connection to Grenfell Tower
05:15 – Why the second edition became necessary after the Inquiry
06:30 – The Inquiry's most shocking findings
10:00 – When regulators knew the risks—but failed to act
12:00 – Implicit trust and why we rely on systems we don't understand
13:00 – Deregulation and the unintended consequences of political narratives
17:00 – Compliance versus understanding the intent behind regulation
20:00 – Why regulations struggle to keep pace with technology and complexity
24:00 – Hope as an act of resistance 25:00 – Why we don't actually learn lessons
27:00 – Is a seven-year inquiry too long?
33:00 – Why "post-Grenfell" reforms miss the real point
37:00 – Communities of grief and change
39:00 – Why Gill rewrote the book instead of writing a new one
44:00 – How the experience changed Gill's own thinking
50:00 – Speaking up in ways that actually get heard
53:30 – Practical advice for learning in complex systems
55:00 – "Lessons learning" instead of "lessons learned"
59:00 – Final reflections

Links
Gill's website, The Grenfell Enquirer

Her book 'Catastrophe & Systemic Change'

Gill's LinkedIn:

Her previous show appearances

• Gill Kernick on the Grenfell Tower Disaster — Part One
• Gill Kernick on the Grenfell Tower Disaster — Part Two

Topics discussed

• Grenfell Tower Inquiry – Final Report
• The Grenfell Enquirer (articles and resources)
• Arup's Building Safety Change Framework

People and ideas mentioned

• Dave Snowden (Cognitive Edge)
• Cynefin Framework overview

Background incidents referenced

• Piper Alpha disaster (Encyclopaedia Britannica)
• Lakanal House fire (Wikipedia)
• Deepwater Horizon oil spill (Encyclopaedia Britannica)

What does jazz singing have to do with LinkedIn? More than you might think.

This week's guest, Anna Rössler, has built a career helping senior leaders find their voice online while simultaneously developing her own as a singer-songwriter. Rather than separating her professional and creative identities, Anna has found a way to bring them together, and in doing so offers some valuable lessons about authenticity, confidence and human connection.

We explore why so much online content feels performative, how AI is changing the way we communicate, and why the best personal brands aren't really about branding at all. Along the way we discuss experimentation, creativity, stage fright, networking, and the importance of building a life around the things that genuinely energise you.

Whether you're trying to communicate more effectively at work, build a presence online, or simply find more balance between your career and your passions, there's plenty to take away from this conversation.

Episode Summary
On this episode, we discuss:

• Why authenticity is more than simply 'being yourself.'
• How personal branding is really about building trust.
• Why social media should be treated as a conversation, not a broadcast.
• The hidden metrics that matter more than likes and impressions.
• How to use AI without losing your own voice.
• Why experimentation beats chasing algorithms.
• What performing music teaches us about confidence and communication.
• How side passions can make us better professionals.
• Why designing your environment is often more important than motivation.
• The value of creating a life that gives you energy instead of draining it.

Guest Profile
Anna Rössler is a marketing and LinkedIn specialist who helps organisations and senior leaders communicate more effectively through content and personal branding. Alongside her marketing career, she's an accomplished jazz and pop vocalist, songwriter and performer.

Her work sits at the intersection of communication, creativity and authenticity, helping people find a voice that genuinely sounds like them—whether they're posting on LinkedIn or performing on stage.

Follow Anna on LinkedInand on her personal website.

What happens when two people who spend their careers thinking about human behaviour meet in a London pub and start complaining about conferences? Apparently, they decide to organise one.

Episode Summary
In this episode I'm joined by David Grosse, founder of behavioural risk advisory firm Behavor, to talk about The Unconvention, an event we're creating together that aims to rethink how conversations about risk, culture and human behaviour actually happen. But this isn't just an episode about an event.

David and I explore why organisations continue to treat behavioural risk as a niche topic, despite human decision-making sitting at the heart of almost every organisational failure. We discuss why so many conferences on culture and conduct feel formulaic, why measuring culture through board packs can miss the point entirely, and why stories often reveal far more than statistics ever can.

Along the way we touch on Silicon Valley Bank, Plato's Cave, behavioural science, organisational culture, productive discomfort, and why the best events might leave you with fewer certainties than when you arrived.

If you're curious about The Unconvention, or simply interested in why we think there has to be a better way to have these conversations, I hope you'll enjoy listening.

Links

• David on LinkedIn
• David's company Behavor
• The Unconvention Website and ticketing site.

AI-Generated Timestamped summary
00:00 – Christian introduces the episode and explains how a conversation in a London pub led to the creation of The Unconvention.

02:20 – David shares his journey from chartered accountant and banker to behavioural risk specialist, and explains why human behaviour became the focus of his work.

05:30 – Why behavioural risk still isn't taken as seriously as other forms of risk, despite sitting behind so many organisational failures.

11:30 – Christian and David discuss what's wrong with many industry conferences, from scripted panels to sponsor-led agendas, and why they rarely change anyone's thinking.

18:00 – The conversation turns to culture, governance and why dashboards and board packs can never fully capture human behaviour.

24:30 – Stories, rather than statistics alone, often provide the richest insights into how organisations really work.

29:00 – The origins of The Unconvention and the principles behind creating an event that deliberately breaks with conference convention

35:30 – Why attendees are being invited to help shape the event, and how behavioural thinking has influenced everything from the format to the ticketing model.

42:00 – Christian and David discuss what they hope participants will take away: curiosity, productive discomfort and conversations that continue long after the event ends.

48:45 – Final details on The Unconvention, where to find David, and the unexpectedly simple story behind the name "Behavor".

Why is it so hard to stop people playing vides, music or phone calls out loud on public transport — and what does that tell us about changing human behaviour?

Show Summary
This episode of The Human Risk Podcast is a little different. It is a cross-cast from The Freewheeling Podcast, hosted by Thomas Ableman, in which I join Thomas to tackle a problem raised by the show's most important listener: his mum.

The issue? People using phones, videos, music and speaker calls out loud on trains and buses. What begins as a seemingly small transport etiquette problem quickly becomes a much bigger conversation about social norms, antisocial behaviour, customer experience, incentives, enforcement and the limits of signage. In our discussion, we explore why simply telling people to stop may not work, how reactance can make things worse, and why transport operators need to think more creatively about behaviour change.

Along the way, we consider quiet carriages, “electronic entertainment carriages”, cheap headphones, better-targeted messaging, staff intervention, social media campaigns and the wider question of whether public transport operators are responsible for the behaviour of the humans they carry.

The Freewheeling Podcast
The Freewheeling Podcast is a show for transport change-makers. It explores how we can move forwards faster, bringing listeners fresh voices, new ideas and unconventional thinking.
While it has a strong focus on transport and mobility, the show also ranges into entrepreneurship, politics, public policy, cities and how systems can be designed to work better for the people who use them.

Links
The Freewheeling Podcast - https://www.freewheeling.info/the-freewheeling-podcast
Thomas on LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/thomasableman/

What if the best way to improve cybersecurity — or any other form of human risk — wasn't another policy, training course, or piece of technology, but a board game? That's the kind of question my guest, Jill Wick, loves asking.

Episode Summary
Jill is a cybersecurity awareness consultant, business psychologist, podcaster, and author. Her work sits at the intersection of psychology, marketing, behavioural science, and cybersecurity, and she is passionate about helping organisations understand that security is fundamentally a human challenge, not simply a technical one.

Drawing on her experience in fraud prevention and her academic background in business psychology, Jill explains why traditional approaches to awareness often fail, why experimentation matters, and how a simple Snakes and Ladders-inspired game can create meaningful conversations about risk and decision-making.

The discussion ranges far beyond cybersecurity. We explore creativity, curiosity, communication, organisational culture, social media, learning, and the challenge of measuring success when the outcome you're seeking is something that doesn't happen.

Key Topics
In this episode, we discuss:

• Why cybersecurity is ultimately a human problem rather than a technology problem
• The psychology behind phishing, scams, and social engineering
• Why more policies and more training often fail to change behaviour
• How unclear policies can create confusion instead of compliance
• The role of curiosity, creativity, and experimentation in risk management
• How games can create psychologically safe environments for learning
• The importance of conversation and peer learning in awareness programmes
• What compliance, safety, conduct, and operational risk professionals can learn from cybersecurity awareness
• Why awareness professionals should think more like marketers
• The value of experimentation, iteration, and A/B testing
• How social media can help build communities around important ideas
• Why measuring engagement may be just as important as measuring failures

Guest Biography
Jill Wick is a cybersecurity awareness consultant, business psychologist, author, and podcast host who specialises in the human side of cybersecurity. Drawing on a background in fraud prevention and behavioural science, she helps organisations build stronger security cultures through creative, engaging approaches that go beyond traditional training and compliance. Known for her innovative use of games, psychology, and marketing techniques, Jill is a passionate advocate for making cybersecurity awareness more human, effective, and enjoyable

Links
Jill's LinkedIn profile - https://www.linkedin.com/in/jill-wick/
Jill's website - https://www.jillwick.com/
Cyber & Psych, Jill's podcast - https://open.spotify.com/show/5uteiqHvCTGCVtCsKCzGJ6?si=322ef51fd6a3423c&nd=1&dlsi=c6d8309550784df9
Security-Awareness-Tools, Jill's book - https://www.isbn.de/buch/9783658511111/security-awareness-tools

AI-Generated Timestamped Outline

• 00:00 – Introduction
• 02:15 – Jill's background: From fraud prevention and business psychology to cybersecurity awareness.
• 05:30 – Understanding why people fall for scams, phishing attacks, and social engineering.
• 06:00 – Why cybersecurity is fundamentally a human problem, not just a technical one.
• 08:00 – The limitations of rules, policies, and traditional awareness training.
• 12:00 – The origin of Jill's cybersecurity board game and why simplicity matters.
• 14:00 – How games create psychologically safe conversations and improve learning.
• 19:30 – The game as a conversation tool: building culture, peer learning, and engagement.
• 22:00 – Creativity, curiosity, and the courage to experiment with new approaches.
• 26:00 – What cybersecurity awareness can learn from marketing, advertising, and A/B testing.
• 35:30 – Why awareness and technology must work together rather than compete.
• 41:30 – New projects: workshops, events, games, and Jill's forthcoming book Security Awareness Tools.
• 44:00 – Lessons for compliance and risk professionals: attention is a limited resource.
• 51:00 – Measuring success: engagement, participation, reporting, and positive signals.

What can businesses learn from cults?
It might sound like an uncomfortable comparison: one involves strategy meetings, values statements and quarterly targets; the other manipulation, charismatic leaders and extreme behaviour. But perhaps the distinction isn't as clear as we'd like to think. Both create identities and shared beliefs. Both shape how people think and behave. And both can evolve gradually in ways that are hard to recognise from the inside.

Unhealthy cultures rarely appear overnight. Small compromises become normal, difficult questions become harder to ask, and behaviours that once felt uncomfortable slowly become accepted.

Episode Overview
On this episode, I'm joined by Tobias Sturesson, culture advisor and author of You Can Culture, whose understanding of organisational culture comes not from business school, but from a deeply personal experience growing up inside a religious community that gradually evolved into a cult.

Drawing on his own story — and his work helping organisations create healthier cultures — Tobias explains why good people can become part of unhealthy systems, why speaking up is often far harder than leaders realise, and why culture is shaped far less by mission statements than by the everyday behaviours people learn to accept.

We also explore:

• How communities and organisations can slowly drift into unhealthy patterns
• Why leaving damaging environments is often much harder than outsiders imagine
• The role of sunk costs, identity and belonging in keeping people trapped
• Why organisations often mistake symptoms for root causes
• The difference between “tone from the top” and “example from the top”
• Why humility may be one of the most underrated leadership traits
• The dangers of leaders creating the appearance of listening without genuinely hearing people
• Why culture initiatives often fail to create lasting behavioural change
• How everyday leadership habits shape organisational culture
• Why discomfort is often necessary for growth

Guest Profile - Tobias Sturesson
Tobias is a culture advisor, speaker and author focused on helping organisations build healthier cultures and develop more responsible leadership practices. His work combines personal experience with research and practical interventions designed to help organisations identify and address the root causes that undermine cultural health. He is the author of You Can Culture: Transformative Leadership Habits for a Thriving Workplace, Positive Impact and Lasting Success.

Links
Tobias on LinkedIn – https://www.linkedin.com/in/tobiassturesson/
Heart Management - https://www.heartmanagement.org/
Tobias' Book: You Can Culture – https://youcanculture.com/

AI-Generated Timestamped Summary
00:00 — Introduction: What can cults teach us about culture?
03:00 — Tobias's story of growing up inside a community that became a cult
08:30 — How unhealthy environments evolve gradually
11:00 — Why leaving can be harder than joining
13:00 — The importance of people who help without judging
16:00 — Turning personal experience into professional purpose
19:00 — Why organisations often misunderstand their own problems
23:00 — Humility as a leadership strength
26:00 — The tension between expertise and curiosity
29:00 — Why business systems often reward the wrong behaviours
33:00 — The importance of listening and asking better questions
38:00 — Why reflection matters in fast-moving environments
42:00 — Culture as everyday conversations and habits
45:00 — Leadership signals and behavioural norms
49:00 — Building healthier cultures through leadership habits
53:00 — Why changing culture is difficult but necessary
56:00 — Creating a movement for healthier leadership

What makes great service? It’s one of those things we instantly recognise when we experience it, but struggle to define. And while organisations spend huge amounts of time trying to design seamless customer experiences, the reality is that service doesn’t happen in strategy documents or training manuals. It happens in real time, between real people, in messy and unpredictable situations where eventually the playbook runs out.

Episode Overview
In this episode, Christian is joined by Will Tarrant, CEO of Freeman Group, who focus on helping organisations close the gap between what they promise customers and what actually gets delivered in reality.

Drawing on decades of experience across hospitality, aviation, healthcare and destinations, Will explains why compliance-based training can sometimes increase hidden risk, why empowerment without judgment can quickly become chaos, and why the real differentiator in service is rarely the process itself — it’s the human response when something unexpected happens.

Along the way, the conversation explores:

• Why “making people feel a certain way” is the real job in hospitality
• The hidden risks created by over-reliance on scripts and SOPs
• Why organisations often confuse solving problems with compensating customers
• The psychology of customer perception and expectation
• How hotels, airports and even destinations manage emotional experiences
• Why breakfast might be the best indicator of a hotel’s quality
• The tension between automation and human interaction
• Why good service recovery is about judgment, not generosity

As Will puts it: “Compliance-based training reduces visible risk, but it increases hidden risk.”

Although framed around hospitality and customer service, this episode is really about something much broader: how humans make decisions when the script no longer applies.

Guest Profile - Will Tarrant
Will Tarrant is the CEO of Freeman Group, a consultancy that helps organisations design and deliver service cultures that align operational reality with brand promise. The company works globally across hospitality, aviation, healthcare, retail and tourism destinations.

LinksWill on LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/willtarrant/
Freeman Group website - https://freemangroupsolutions.com/

AI-Generated Timestamped Summary

• 00:00 — Introduction: Why service failures create risk
• 02:30 — Closing the gap between promise and reality
• 07:00 — Hospitality is about making people feel something
• 11:30 — The hidden risk of compliance-based training
• 13:00 — What happens when the playbook runs out
• 15:00 — Scripts, authenticity and service style
• 16:00 — Measuring service quality
• 19:00 — Perception is reality
• 20:00 — Why empowerment needs structure
• 22:00 — Seeing service everywhere
• 24:00 — The timeless mechanics of good service
• 26:00 — Automation versus human interaction
• 29:00 — “The customer is always your customer”
• 30:00 — Solving problems versus compensating customers
• 33:00 — Inheriting other people’s problems
• 36:00 — Hiring for judgment, not just experience
• 39:00 — The changing status of hospitality careers
• 43:00 — Humans as the source of unpredictability
• 47:00 — Why hotel breakfast matters
• 50:00 — Choice overload and decision fatigue
• 53:00 — Applying service thinking beyond hospitality
• 55:00 — The gap between marketing and operational reality

What if prediction isn’t about knowing the future, but controlling it? On this episode, I'm joined by a leading thinker on digital ethics, privacy and technology to explore the idea of prophecy.

Episode Summary
My guest is Dr Carissa Véliz and in our discussion, we talk about humanity’s long-standing obsession with predicting what comes next, and why today’s algorithms may be the most powerful (and dangerous) prophets we’ve ever created.

From ancient oracles and court astrologers to modern AI systems and tech executives, we explore how prediction has always been less about knowledge and more about power. What becomes clear is that while the tools have changed, the underlying dynamics haven’t. We still crave certainty, we still look for authority, and we’re still willing to trust those who claim to see the future. The difference now is scale: predictive technologies don’t just forecast behaviour; they shape it. And the more accurate they appear, the less likely we are to question them.

We then explore responsibility. If prediction influences reality, then our willingness to accept it matters. This episode is a reminder that the future isn’t something that simply happens to us, but something we’re actively participating in, whether we realise it or not.

Guest Bio
Dr Carissa Véliz is Associate Professor of Philosophy at the Institute for Ethics in AI and a Fellow at Hertford College at the University of Oxford. She is a leading thinker on digital ethics, privacy, and technology. She is the author of several books including her latest release 'Prophecy: Prediction, Power and the Fight for the Future, from Ancient Oracles to AI' and 'Privacy Is Power: Why and How You Should Take Back Control of Your Data '

Her work explores how data, AI, and predictive systems reshape society—often in ways that are invisible but deeply consequential. Drawing on philosophy, history, and real-world systems, she examines how power operates through technology and what individuals and institutions can do to resist it.

AI-Generated TImestamped Summary

• [00:00:00] Opening: prediction as something that shapes—not reveals—the future
• [00:01:00] Why prophecy is a lens for understanding modern AI
• [00:04:00] Kings, prophets, and the risks of getting predictions wrong
• [00:06:00] Survival strategies of ancient astrologers
• [00:08:00] Why humans crave certainty—and who exploits it
• [00:10:00] The danger of mistaking wealth for wisdom
• [00:12:00] Prediction as a tool of power throughout history
• [00:14:00] Surveillance as the foundation of modern prediction
• [00:16:00] How predictions shape behaviour (self-fulfilling dynamics)
• [00:17:00] Publishing as a case study in manufactured success
• [00:21:00] The strange economics of pre-orders and attention
• [00:23:00] Insurance: from solidarity to individualised risk
• [00:26:00] The hidden systemic risks of personalised prediction
• [00:30:00] Why citizens need to reclaim agency
• [00:31:00] Laziness vs values: why we default to algorithms
• [00:33:00] Tech creating problems it then claims to solve
• [00:34:00] The role of humour as truth-telling
• [00:35:00] Why algorithms would have killed Seinfeld
• [00:40:00] Practical alternatives: preparation over prediction
• [00:42:00] The importance of serendipity
• [00:43:00] Rediscovering the analogue world
• [00:46:00] Algorithms shaping culture and environments
• [00:48:00] Optimism vs doom in thinking about technology
• [00:50:00] Writing as exploration, not prediction

Links
Carissa's website - https://www.carissaveliz.com/

Her new book, Prophecy - https://www.carissaveliz.com/prophecy

Her previous book Privacy Is Power - https://www.carissaveliz.com/books

Carissa's faculty page - https://www.oxford-aiethics.ox.ac.uk/dr-carissa-veliz

Carissa on LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/carissa-v%C3%A9liz-a5781555/

We like to think we choose what matters. But what if the goals we’re chasing… aren’t actually ours?

Episode Summary
My guest on this episode is Dr. C. Thi Nguyen, philosopher and author of The Score: How to Stop Playing Somebody Else’s Game, a book about how metrics, scoring systems, and “games” shape our behaviour—often without us realising it. Thi explains how his work on games led him to a deeper question: why do scoring systems make games feel meaningful, but make real life feel distorted? The answer lies in how metrics redefine success—quietly shifting us from what we care about to what we can measure.

In a wide-ranging discussion, we explore the idea of “value capture”, why institutions rely on simplified proxies, and how the very features that make metrics useful also make them dangerous. We also discuss expertise, transparency, gamification, and why removing metrics altogether doesn’t solve the problem. This is a conversation about control: who sets the rules, who keeps score, and what happens when we stop questioning the game we’re playing.

Guest Bio
Dr. C. Thi Nguyen is a philosopher whose work explores how games, metrics, and social systems shape human behaviour and values. A professor of philosophy at the University of Utah, his research sits at the intersection of ethics, decision-making, and the philosophy of agency, with a particular focus on how the structures around us influence what we care about and how we act.

Alongside his academic work, Thi is also a keen gamer, rock climber, and cook; interests that inform his thinking about play, challenge, and the richness of human experience beyond what can be easily measured.

AI-Generated Timestamped Summary
00:00 – Introduction: games, metrics, and meaning
03:00 – How Thi came to study games and philosophy
07:00 – What games are (and why they matter)
10:00 – Achievement vs striving play
13:00 – Cheating and misunderstanding the point of games
16:00 – Games, struggle, and meaningful activity
18:00 – Cooking, recipes, and rules
22:00 – Metrics as simplified rule systems
25:00 – Value capture and how metrics reshape goals
29:00 – Why institutions rely on measurement
32:00 – Quantification and loss of context
36:00 – Rules, algorithms, and expertise
40:00 – Standardisation and the cost of consistency
43:00 – Transparency, trust, and unintended consequences
47:00 – Metrics and the loss of expert judgment
50:00 – Ungrading and the limits of removing metrics
54:00 – Designing better scoring systems
58:00 – Gamification and why it misses the point
01:02:00 – Choosing your own game
01:06:00 – Final reflections and closing

Relevant Links

Thi’s personal website – https://objectionable.net/
His faculty page - https://profiles.faculty.utah.edu/u6021584
The Score: How to Stop Playing Someone Else’s Game - https://www.penguin.co.uk/books/457380/the-score-by-nguyen-c-thi/9780241653975
Thi on Bluesky – https://bsky.app/profile/add-hawk.bsky.social

We tend to assume that if we’re working hard, we’re working well. But what if that isn’t true?

Episode Summary
My guest on this episode is Phil Dobson, author of The Brain Book and founder of Brain Workshops, about what he calls 'cognitive leadership': using neuroscience and psychology to help people sustain performance, think more clearly, and navigate uncertainty. Phil explains how a broken ankle led him from music and sales into hypnotherapy, neuroscience, and leadership development, and why he believes most of us are never properly taught how our brains actually work.

In a wide-ranging discussion, we explore the difference between productivity and effectiveness, why attention may be our most valuable asset, and how modern working life often undermines flow, creativity, and good decision-making. We also discuss stress, workload, digital distraction, the limits of measurement, and what organisations get wrong when they try to manage people as if more time always equals more value.

Discover how leaders can create better conditions for thinking, resilience, creativity, and change; and why understanding the human brain matters far beyond the workplace.

Episode Summaruy

• why most of us are taught far too little about how our brains work
• Phil’s unusual route from musician to hypnotherapist to neuroscience-based leadership adviser
• the difference between being productive and being effective
• why self-employment sharpened Phil’s focus on impact rather than activity
• how experimentation, iteration, and reflection shape better ways of working
• the distinction between fun and fulfilment
• flow states and why modern life makes them harder to access
• the growing importance of attention in a world of distraction
• why stress management has to include workload management, not just breathing techniques
• how rest, breaks, and so-called “unproductive” time often drive insight and creativity
• why measuring people too narrowly can damage performance
• how understanding the brain helps leaders navigate change and uncertainty
• why improving human decision-making matters not just for performance, but for reducing costly mistakes

AI-Generated Timestamped Summary
00:00 — Introduction: busyness vs effectiveness
02:00 — Phil’s journey into cognitive leadership
07:00 — Productivity vs effectiveness (and the 80/20 shift)
12:00 — Experimentation, habits, and fulfilment
17:00 — Flow, focus, and attention under pressure
22:00 — Attention as a critical (and under threat) asset
27:00 — Why knowing isn’t the same as doing
31:00 — Rethinking productivity: energy, creativity, and insight
36:00 — The neuroscience of better thinking (default mode network)
40:00 — Measurement, management, and leadership challenges
45:00 — Human performance beyond the workplace
50:00 — Human error, decision-making, and risk
55:00 — Evolving work: shorter weeks and smarter working
58:00 — Leading change with a brain-based approach
01:03:00 — Final reflections and closing

Relevant Links
Phil's website - https://phildobson.com/

Brain Workshops - https://brainworkshops.co.uk/

Phil on LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/brainworkshops/

The Brain Book - https://www.amazon.com/Brain-Book-Smarter-Concise-Advice/dp/1910649732

What lessons does a religious protest that led to an uprising in 1549 have to do with human risk?

At first glance, not very much. It’s easy to see it as a distant historical event — something about religion, kings, and a very different world. But as my guest, Professor Mark Stoyle explains, the Western Rising of 1549 is far more than that. It’s a powerful example of what happens when authority imposes change without understanding how people will react.

Episode Summary
This episode started on a train journey to Exeter, where I was due to give a talk. Looking for a local story to make my presentation more relevant, I stumbled across a battle that had taken place just outside the venue in 1549. The more I read, the clearer it became that this wasn’t just history, it was a case study in compliance, behaviour, and unintended consequences.

Guest Profile
Mark is a historian and leading expert on what he calls the Western Rising of 1549. In this conversation, we explore how sweeping religious changes imposed by those in power triggered resistance, how small incidents escalated into a major rebellion, and why identity, belief, and emotion played such a critical role. Along the way, we discuss how history is written (and biased), why changing language can provoke outrage rather than acceptance, and what this story reveals about leadership, risk, and human behaviour today.

AI-Generated Timestamped Summary
00:00 – Introduction: a compliance failure in 1549
01:00 – The train journey to Exeter
02:00 – Discovering the rebellion
04:00 – Why this is a human risk story
05:15 – Introducing Professor Mark Stoyle
07:30 – Setting the historical context
10:00 – Power, authority, and instability
13:30 – What triggered the rising
17:00 – Why language change caused outrage
22:00 – Early resistance and local incidents
25:00 – The tipping point: violence begins
29:00 – How the rebellion spreads
33:00 – The siege of Exeter
37:00 – How history is written by the victors
41:00 – Crushing the rebellion
45:00 – Cultural consequences and language loss
48:00 – Lessons for today
52:00 – Polarisation and modern parallels
57:00 – Final reflections In this episode we discuss

Key Topics

• Why imposed change can trigger resistance
• How small incidents escalate into major crises
• The role of identity, belief, and emotion in decision-making
• Why language and culture matter in compliance
• How authority can misjudge human behaviour
• The dangers of polarisation and “us vs them” thinking
• Why compromise becomes impossible in extreme positions
• How history is shaped by those who win
• The unintended consequences of leadership decisions
• What a 16th-century rebellion teaches us about modern risk

Guest Profile
Mark Stoyle is Professor of History at the University of Southampton. He specialises in Tudor rebellions, the English Civil War, and the history of witchcraft. Originally from Devon, his work on the Western Rising of 1549 draws on decades of research and a deep personal connection to the region where these events took place.

Links
The Western Rising of 1549, Mark's book - https://yalebooks.co.uk/book/9780300276886/the-western-rising-of-1549/

Mark's University of Southampton profile page - https://www.southampton.ac.uk/people/5wyxqy/professor-mark-stoyle

Mark's publisher profile: - https://www.worldturnedupsidedown.co.uk/team/mark-stoyle/

What exactly is a sign? At first glance, that might sound like a strange question. Signs are everywhere: telling us where to go, what to do, what not to do, and sometimes what might happen if we ignore instructions. But as my guest, Jeffrey Ludlow Saentz explains, signs are much more than bits of information on walls or beside roads.

Episode Summary
Jeffrey is a signage designer who works on complex buildings and environments around the world — airports, offices, museums, and other places where helping people find their way really matters. He’s also the author of A Sign Is..., a fascinating book exploring the history, meaning, and cultural significance of the signs that shape our everyday behaviour.

In this conversation, we explore why good signage is often invisible, how buildings “speak” to us through wayfinding systems, and what signs reveal about power, trust, and human behaviour. Along the way we discuss hacked traffic signs, casino design, airport navigation, and why something as simple as an arrow carries centuries of history.

AI-Generated Timestamped Summary
00:00 – Introduction: why signs are more interesting than they first appear
03:00 – How Jeffrey became a signage designer
04:00 – The challenge of helping people navigate complex buildings
07:00 – What actually is a sign?
09:00 – Why “everything can be a sign”
11:00 – The power dynamics behind signage and authority
13:00 – How designers observe signage in the real world
14:30 – Cultural differences in wayfinding and navigation
19:30 – Why Jeffrey wrote A Sign Is..
22:00 – The fascinating history of fire safety signage
24:00 – Curiosity and the stories hidden behind everyday signs
27:00 – Hacked construction signs and unexpected messages
31:00 – Trust, authority, and information on signs
35:00 – Advertising, nudging, and attention
36:00 – Information overload and competing signals
39:00 – The learned language of signs and symbols
41:00 – Why good signage is “invisible” when it works
43:00 – Airports, trust, and wayfinding design
46:00 – How people become signage designers
47:30 – How casinos, airports, and museums use signs differently
50:00 – The psychology of navigation
54:00 – Why signage can’t work perfectly for everyone
57:00 – Why wayfinding is an art rather than a science
01:02:00 – Jeffrey’s book A Sign Is and where to find it
01:04:00 – What signs might look like in the future In this episode we discuss

Key Topics

• Why signage is a form of behavioural communication
• How buildings “talk” to people through wayfinding systems
• The psychology of navigation and spatial awareness
• Why good signage is invisible
• How casinos deliberately make navigation harder
• Why museums minimise signs while airports maximise them
• The cultural differences in how places are navigated
• What hacked traffic signs reveal about trust in authority
• Why signs act as nudges that shape behaviour
• The limits of signage when designing for large groups
• How digital navigation may change our relationship with physical signs

About Jeffrey
Jeffrey Ludlow is a signage and wayfinding designer and founder of Point of Reference Studio, a design practice specialising in signage systems, environmental graphics, and branding for public environments. Trained as an architect, Jeffrey’s work sits at the intersection of architecture, graphic design, and behavioural psychology — helping people navigate complex spaces more intuitively. He is the author of A Sign Is, a book exploring the cultural, historical, and behavioural significance of the signs that surround us.

Links
Jeffrey's book 'A Sign Is...' - https://oroeditions.com/product/a-sign-is

Point of Reference, the Madrid-based studio Jeffrey founded - https://pointofreference.studio/