The Storm Skiing Journal and Podcast

Who

Shaun Sutner, Snowsports columnist for the Worcester Telegram & Gazette & https://www.telegram.com/.

Date Recorded

Nov. 2, 2026

The take up top

I referenced a Snow Brainsarticle covering the big SkiCos motion to dismiss a lawsuit filed this summer accusing BigSki of collusion in pricing and business practices. I wrote about this lawsuit back in August:

The update is that the ski area operators think this lawsuit is dumb and without merit. The non-update is that while I agree with them, I also believe that this is a problem of their own making in that pricing walk-up lift tickets as though they’re Fabergé eggs is bound to make people hate you enough to take legal action.

Why I interviewed him

Same as it ever was – Sutner is a great journalist and a great interview, and he’s always keyed into what’s happening in New England. We spend a lot of time discussing new ownership groups and expansions:

Transcripts

There are two transcripts. Both are generated by robots. Both are helpful and defective in their own unique ways. I do not proofread either of them.

Transcript 1: Click the “transcript” button at the top of this article. You can only see this transcript on a computer. Because I don’t know why exactly but everything is getting better and dumber all at once it seems. Anyway, this is the transcript that the robots create when I upload the podcast to the internet. The cool thing about it is that you can click on any block of text and the audio will teleport there instantly. The uncool thing about this transcript is that it does not indicate who is talking at any given moment.

Transcript 2: You can read this below. This is the transcript that Zoom creates as we record the podcast. The cool thing about this transcript is that it indicates who is talking at any given moment. The uncool thing about this transcript is that the timestamps do not match the audio. Also, you cannot click on this text to move to the associated point in the audio.

Zoom

Stuart Winchester: My guest today is a very good friend of the Storm, appearing now for the sixth consecutive year. He has been covering New England skiing as the snow sports columnist for the Worcester Telegram and Gazette.

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Stuart Winchester: and Telegram.com for more than two decades. He also does a bunch of AI stuff, which he can tell you about if he wants to. Sean Sutner is my guest. Sean, awesome to have you back. How you doing? How hyped are you for ski season?

00:08:37.000 --> 00:08:47.000

SutnerS: Oh man, I think I’m the most hyped I’ve been in like 10 or 15 years for some weird reason. I don’t know why. I mean, it just, maybe it’s all this dumb warm weather we’re having.

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Stuart Winchester: No.

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Stuart Winchester: Yeah, I mean, I think you also had a couple truncated seasons, right? So this is your chance… are you healthy?

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SutnerS: Yes.

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SutnerS: Yeah, yeah, I couldn’t ski last, uh, October, November, or December.

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Stuart Winchester: Okay.

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Stuart Winchester: Right, okay, okay.

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SutnerS: So I tried to make up for it in January. I had an injury from the year before, but yeah, I’m healthy and ready to go. More than healthy.

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Stuart Winchester: Alright, let’s talk real quick about next weekend. I’ll put this right up top for our guy Doug Fish. We’re both gonna be at Snovana New England, the inaugural one, next weekend. I will be…

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Stuart Winchester: 30, interviewing Eric Mogensen, the owner of Indy Pass and Black Mountain and Entebeni Systems. Then Saturday at 2:05, I’ll be interviewing Phil Gross and Mike Solomano, uh, in order they are the owner.

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Stuart Winchester: or sort of managing partner and president of Killington, and then tell us about your session on Sunday.

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SutnerS: I got the prime slot on Sunday at one o’clock. I am interviewing Chris Dempson and Courtney Crowley, who the so-called next gen leadership of Wachusett. They’re the children of the current owners and their cousins.

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Stuart Winchester: John?

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Stuart Winchester: Yeah.

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SutnerS: They’re young and a lot of fun, and they’ll really get into the spirit of Snowvana, which always reminds me of Nirvana, which is where the founding father, Doug Fish, is from Pacific Northwest. And the main thing is get it done before the Pats game at four.

00:10:14.000 --> 00:10:24.000

Stuart Winchester: That’ll be done. You know what, Sean? I’m gonna… now that you need any more admin, I’m gonna hassle Doug here, uh, because check this out. On, uh, on your speaker slot…

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SutnerS: No, no, it’s okay.

00:10:24.000 --> 00:10:38.000

Stuart Winchester: What’s wrong with this, Sean? So I’m showing my screen for those watching on YouTube at Storm Ski Journal, and on StormSkiing.com. Apparently, Sean Suttner is with the, uh, billed as being with the Storm Skiing Journal. Um, so I…

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SutnerS: Oh!

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Stuart Winchester: I guess I… I guess I get more flex than, uh, the Worcester Telegram and Gazette these days.

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SutnerS: Wait, wait, sign me up for this. Yeah.

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Stuart Winchester: Yeah, no, I’m teasing. They can fix that. I also have a promo code for my listeners, THESTORM2026, or THESTORM26. I’ll make sure it’s correct on this podcast, but they can get a free ticket to Snovana. So let’s stay on what you said here.

00:11:03.000 --> 00:11:13.000

Stuart Winchester: Sean, so last year, they put in a six-pack, it opened a little late, but talk about… because we’ve seen this a lot around skiing, where you have a family-owned ski area.

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Stuart Winchester: First generation passes along, maybe the second generation loves it, maybe the third generation does or doesn’t. It looks as though Wachusett is going to stay family owned. What’s your read on it? What do you think about everything going on at Wachusett? I guess start with the Lyft and tell us about the ownership.

00:11:31.000 --> 00:11:46.000

SutnerS: All right, starting with the Lyft. I mean, Lyft actually was a surprise success, even among most naysayers, which was really a positive development. I mean, no Lyft lines. What’s this? It went from Lyft lines to no Lyft lines.

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Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.

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Stuart Winchester: Yeah.

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Stuart Winchester: Really? Even on busy periods?

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SutnerS: Wow.

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SutnerS: Oh, yeah, that was kind of the point of it, of the new lift. Well, nights, early night skiing, no lines, at least in a single line. And then Saturday and Sunday, like up until noon, really no lines to speak of. It worked really well. They have a funny little problem up at the top.

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Stuart Winchester: Yeah, thank you.

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Stuart Winchester: Okay. Okay.

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Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

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SutnerS: where the down ramp is actually not steep enough. So I think they might have regraded a little bit this summer, not sure. They also have a big chair barn that they have some problems with the manufacturer and getting that thing operational. So the chairs never went under there last year.

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Stuart Winchester: Oh, okay.

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Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.

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SutnerS: So hopefully they will go in this year. As far as the succession or will it stay in family hands, I’ve heard 0% chatter that it will not stay in family hands. It’s going to stay in family hands. The question is, which of the family?

00:12:34.000 --> 00:12:35.000

S…

Get full access to The Storm Skiing Journal and Podcast at https://www.stormskiing.com/subscribe

The Storm Skiing Journal and Podcast is purchasing a dolaGon mostly to skip liftlines on Saturdays. Please support this worthy cause:

Who

Seth Neubardt, CEO and Co-Founder of dolaGon Autonomous

Date Recorded

Oct. 29, 2026

About dolaGon

dolaGon is developing autonomous “off-road utility vehicles” that can, among other things, drive lazy skiers like me up to mountaintops and then drive themselves back down while I SnoSportSki le piste!

Why I interviewed him

In 2021, Seth reached out to tell me about this crazy autonomous ski-lift contraption he’d been assembling in his garage. I interviewed him and wrote about it:

Humans are amazing and strange. The most successful among us often seem to be those most willing to fail, as Seth did when he witnessed his first autonomous creation – a snowmobile laboriously retrofit with thousands of dollars in high-tech add-ons - commit suicide by way of high-speed collision with a tree. He scrapped the Mad Max contraption and started over with the Polaris side-by-side that is now dolaGon’s core assembly.

Staying motivated through expensive failures is of course easier if you possess resources. And it’s usually easier to acquire resources if you’re really, really smart. Like, if you’re a literal brain surgeon who owns 24 patents and founded a company that provided something called “intraoperative neurophysiological monitoring services” that cranked out millions in revenue before a company called NuVasive acquired it for an undisclosed price that was probably enough to at least like buy a couple of Polaris side-by-sides and not be too concerned if one is stolen by polar bears or accidentally drives itself down Corbet’s Couloir.

So like basically if you’re Seth.

Still. Five years is a long time to work at something even for a financially grounded genius who doesn’t mind sending his robot vehicles on Evil Knievel Death Missions.* We’d check in on each other once in a while and I was always mildly surprised that he was still doing the snow car thing because I figured at some point he’d just get bored with it and like build us a second moon or something.

But Seth is still at it, and he seems to be getting closer to a commercially viable vehicle that can in its most romantic interpretation drive you up a snowy mountain but can also do more practical things like shuttle skiers up from a parking lot or condo. He’s about to go on tour through New England so if you want him to come demo the dolaGon or maybe just drive your dogs around he’ll probably show up. It’s seth@dolagon.com if you need him.

*I’m overstating Seth’s propensity to immolate his inventions only because I find the origin story of the suicidal snowmobile so hilarious. To my knowledge Seth has never intentionally killed a robot in service of the noble science of driving lazy U.S. Americans up hills. I’m also beating the joke to death because I know Seth sometimes finds me funny though I have to admit I’m pushing it here with this implied caricature of some real-life labcoated Professor Frink madcapping from his underground lair strange vehicles that sprout legs and walk uphill like giant spiders or catapult skiers uphill medieval-lever style or fire a grappling hook to the summit to ascend. So sorry Seth I hope we still good Bro because I’d really like to ride one of these dolaGons one day and I promise to be nice to it because I am legit convinced that when the robots gain sentience they will search their database of Everything That Has Ever Been Done on the Internet and target for sport the imperious and petty souls who told Siri thanks for nothing shithead I wanted to know the capital of Louisiana not the address for Louis’s Aunt Anna which by the way your answer was “I can’t find any information on that query” which is your standard d******k answer even when I ask something like “what was the score of the Bills game?” and you act all stricken as though I’d just asked you to calculate the square centimeters of earth currently occupied by crickets and no you can’t count the ones mid-jump Idiot. And the robots won’t just shoot these people they’ll like torture them with industrial machinery and then lower them feet-first into an active volcano and I need to shut up because when they search “all evil ideas ever” this one will come up and someone’s gonna regret it. I mean not me because one of the great things about living in New York City is that according to every movie ever I’ll be the first to die in an apocalypse which honestly sounds a lot more appealing than wandering the wasted husk of civilization fighting fellow survivors to the death over squirrel meat.

Also in this episode

Listener reaction to the Sundance pod with resort President Chad Linebaugh:

Reader reaction to my breakdown of Snow Pass:

And my goodness this 200-acre, four-lift expansion at Sipapu, Mountain Capital Partners’ Origin Mountain, would be freaking awesome:

To provide some context as to how major this would be, the shaded area above to the left represents the entire legacy ski area:

For full scale, check out the developable terrain on Google Earth:

The scale doesn’t exactly make sense to me, as the resort currently claims 215 acres, and the expansion area - pegged at 200 acres - covers far more ground than the legacy footprint. I’m reaching out to Sipapu officials to clarify. Hopefully, I’ll get them on the pod soon to walk us through it.

Transcripts

There are two transcripts. Both are generated by robots. Both are helpful and defective in their own unique ways. I do not proofread either of them.

Transcript 1: Click the “transcript” button at the top of this article. You can only see this transcript on a computer. Because I don’t know why exactly but everything is getting better and dumber all at once it seems. Anyway, this is the transcript that the robots create when I upload the podcast to the internet. The cool thing about it is that you can click on any block of text and the audio will teleport there instantly. The uncool thing about this transcript is that it does not indicate who is talking at any given moment.

Transcript 2: You can read this below. This is the transcript that Zoom creates as we record the podcast. The cool thing about this transcript is that it indicates who is talking at any given moment. The uncool thing about this transcript is that the timestamps do not match the audio. Also, you cannot click on this text to move to the associated point in the audio.

Zoom

Stuart Winchester: My guest today is an inventor who holds 24 patents. For the past several years, he has been working toward commercial production of his autonomous vehicle, which he calls Dolagon.

00:39:44.000 --> 00:39:51.000

Stuart Winchester: He is also an orthopedic surgeon. He is Seth Newbert. Seth, welcome to the storm. So pumped to have you here. How are you doing today, man.

00:39:49.000 --> 00:39:50.000

Seth Neubardt I dolaGon I NY: Okay.

00:39:51.000 --> 00:39:54.000

Seth Neubardt I dolaGon I NY: I’m doing really well. Thanks, Stuart. Pleasure to be here.

00:39:53.000 --> 00:40:10.000

Stuart Winchester: So, Seth, for longtime Storm folks, this might sound all familiar because I spoke to you in June of 2021 and wrote a story on the Dolagon. And so that was five years ago. And let me just set up where we were then, and you can set us straight as to where you are now.

00:40:02.000 --> 00:40:03.000

Seth Neubardt I dolaGon I NY: Right.

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Seth Neubardt I dolaGon I NY: Yep.

00:40:08.000 --> 00:40:09.000

Seth Neubardt I dolaGon I NY: Okay.

00:40:10.000 --> 00:40:26.000

Stuart Winchester: So you tried a snowmobile. It failed spectacularly. You went to a side by side, Polaris side by side. The snow people and the self-driving people. Snow people thought self-driving was easy. Self-driving thought snow was easy. They were both wrong. It’s really different things.

00:40:10.000 --> 00:40:11.000

Seth Neubardt I dolaGon I NY: Yeah, thank you.

00:40:24.000 --> 00:40:26.000

Seth Neubardt I dolaGon I NY…

Get full access to The Storm Skiing Journal and Podcast at https://www.stormskiing.com/subscribe

The Storm Skiing Journal and Podcast thinks it’s cool that we get to ski on a volcano.

Who

John Merriman, President and General Manager of Mount Bachelor, Oregon

Date Recorded

Oct. 28, 2026

About Mount Bachelor

Owned by: Powdr, which also owns:

Year founded: 1958

Pass affiliations:

* Ikon Pass: 7 days, no blackouts

* Ikon Base Pass: 5 days, holiday blackouts

Base elevation: 5,703 feet (bottom of Northwest Express chairlift)

Summit elevation: 8,957 feet (top of Summit Express chairlift), can hike to 9,065 feet

Vertical drop: 3,254 feet lift-served | 3,362 feet hike-to

Skiable acres: 4,323

Average annual snowfall: 410 inches

Lift count: 15 (1 six-pack, 7 high-speed quads, 1 fixed-grip quad, 3 triples, 3 carpets)

Why I interviewed him

First, the volcano thing never stops thrilling me. As I wrote when I hosted Mount Hood Meadows GM Greg Pack on the pod last year:

Volcanoes are weird. Oh look, an exploding mountain. Because that seems reasonable. Volcanoes sound like something imagined, like dragons or teleportation or dinosaurs*. “So let me get this straight,” I imagine some puzzled Appalachian miner, circa 1852, responding to the fellow across the fire as he tells of his adventures in the Oregon Territory, “you expect me to believe that out thataways they got themselves mountains that just blow their roofs off whenever they feel like it, and shoot off fire and rocks and gas for 50 mile or more, and no one never knows when it’s a’comin’? You must think I’m dumber’n that there tree stump.”

Turns out volcanoes are real. How humanity survived past day one I have no idea. But here we are, skiing on volcanoes instead of tossing our virgins from the rim as a way of asking the nice mountain to please not explode (seriously how did anyone make it out of the past alive?).

And one of the volcanoes we can ski on is Mount Hood. This actually seems more unbelievable to me than the concept of a vengeful nuclear mountain. PNW Nature Bros shield every blade of grass like they’re guarding Fort Knox. When, in 2014, federal scientists proposed installing four monitoring stations on Hood, which the U.S. Geological Survey ranks as the sixth-highest threat to erupt out of America’s 161 active volcanoes, these morons stalled the process for six years. “I think it is so important to have places like that where we can just step back, out of respect and humility, and appreciate nature for what it is,” a Wilderness Watch official told The New York Times. Personally I think it’s so important to install basic monitoring infrastructure so that thousands of people are not incinerated in a predictable volcanic eruption. While “Japan, Iceland and Chile smother their high-threat volcanoes in scientific instruments,” The Times wrote, American Granola Bros say things like, “This is more proof that the Forest Service has abandoned any pretense of administering wilderness as per the letter or spirit of the Wilderness Act.” And Hood and the nation’s other volcanoes cackle madly. “These idiots are dumber than the human-sacrifice people,” they say just before belching up an ash cloud that could take down a 747. When officials finally installed these instrument clusters on Hood in 2020, they occupied three boxes that look to be approximately the size of a convenience-store ice freezer, which feels like an acceptable trade-off to mass death and airplanes falling out of the sky.

It’s weird because for most of human history, humans just kind of did whatever they wanted to. That’s how we have castles on mountain peaks all over Europe and railroad tracks across continents and the towering city of Manhattan where a forest used to be. Ever heard of The Great Black Swamp? It once covered three million acres in Northwest Ohio and was more than 120 miles wide. It’s gone. Gone. Humans drained it in the 1800s for farmland.

Mount Bachelor ski resort, opened in 1958 as Bachelor Butte, is probably one of the last instances we’ll ever see in America of a built human experience laid over nature’s grandeur. It’s too bad. Humans build amazing things. Done correctly, they complement nature aesthetically and functionally, bringing the animal most capable of destroying the world closer to where they can appreciate its specialness. Our current posture mostly allows us to build in the least desirable places - flatlands accessible only by car, typically on a city’s edge. That we could foster more appreciation for the natural world by allowing more people to live closer to - or even within - it is a sentiment completely absent from the national discussions on how to build the millions of housing units America needs.

What do I mean by this? Build more ski resorts on volcanoes? No. But consider this: Mount Bachelor is a 21-mile drive from Bend, where the majority of the mountain’s skier visits originate. And Bachelor gets A LOT of skier visits:

There is no place to stay on the mountain, unless you snag one of 40 RV spots. Everyone else must arrive, every single day, in one of the approximately 4,880 personal vehicles or five buses that the ski area can accommodate on its 44-ish acres of parking lots.

Merriman makes it clear that Bachelor’s new Forest Service masterplan will not include any plans for onsite lodging. “I just don’t really think it fits our culture very well,” he said. And he’s correct: the predominant ethos in the Pacific Northwest has for decades been to separate the natural places that people most want to visit from the places where they are allowed to live.

This may have made sense in Bachelor’s early days of fewer than 100,000 annual skier visits. It doesn’t make sense anymore. Check out this peak-day visitation chart from Bachelor’s 2013 Environmental Impact Statement (EIS):

Here’s how that translates to traffic:

As big as those numbers are, Bachelor aspired for more skier visits. The solution? More parking. From that same 2013 EIS: “Under the Proposed Action, Mt. Bachelor would expand parking, increasing the comfortable parking capacity from 10,050 guests to 13,120.” The pink below shows where Bachelor planned to build parking lots:

But imagine this: what if Bachelor, the U.S. Forest Service, and any relevant local authorities jointly developed 44 acres of the flat scrubland surrounding Mt. Bachelor into a dense, walkable, low-rise village accented with a wilderness motif that blended with the natural environment?

Humans have built beautiful places to live in the mountains for centuries. Consider the mountainside cities of Italy:

Or, just down the road from Bachelor, Timberline Lodge on Mt. Hood:

If ski resorts enabled more people to live where they actually want to be, then they could collectively do more than any other industry to model a car-lite mode of living that is alien to most Americans.

What I’m talking about here is place-building of the sort that humans did for the 100,000 years before the car showed up: a pedestrian-first community with plazas and parks and schools and grocery stores and pharmacies and barbershops and restaurants. I don’t mean a kitschy row of souvenir shops with condos owned by absentees who show up two weeks per year and Air B&B the rest, and I don’t mean employee housing built and subsidized by the ski areas. I mean establishing a community - let’s call it “Bachelor Butte” - and incorporating it; setting a street grid and baseline rules of building design, height, and size; establishing a government authorized to form a police force and firefighting unit and school system; banning through-traffic and stowing most cars in underground garages; and setting a hefty enough tax for unoccupied units that more residents than not are incentivized to live there year-round.

I realize this vision is unpopular. I also realize that any such development would likely carry a hefty market-rate pricetag for resident entry, making it a redoubt for rich folks to live beside a national treasure. But what if… mountainside residences are unaffordable because we build so few of them? What if Americans stopped reflexively opposing mountainside development and instead encouraged the development of dense communities, as our neighbors in British Columbia have so successfully done? Right now, B.C. developers are building, from raw wilderness, a community below Cypress Mountain that will eventually be home to 7,000 people, with 3,700 homes of all sizes, vibrant pedestrian areas and eight neighborhood parks:

While this new community sits below Cypress ski area, a gondola may one day ferry skiers from the town square up to the mountain. Transit will likewise connect residents to Vancouver.

Americans have good reasons to oppose new development. Pretty much everything we’ve built in this country since World War II has de-centered the human experience, making our built environment a hazardous and ugly mishmosh of parking lots, lowrise buildings, and highways as uncrossable by a pedestrian as the Mississippi River. The American soul sees, in any new proposal, more of this discombobulated cartoon world, and they don’t want that transposed onto our most beautiful places.

Neither do I. But the world is filled with gorgeous, intimate places built with great care to complement - even enhance - nature’s brilliance. Humans love these places. Bachelor - and so many other American places - could reclaim from the richest among us the exclusive right to live immersed in nature simply by building more places adjacent to it.

This probably sounds extreme. “Stu you just don’t get it, we like that 44 acres of land are set aside for the temporary storage of personal vehicles so that we can enjoy nature and not look at a bunch of buildings.” You’re right - I don’t get it. Bachelor is the seventh-largest ski area in America, and it is the only one in the top 20 with no onsite beds. Given the preponderance of villages in the European Alps, that likely makes Mt. Bachelor the largest ski area in the world without lodging. Should that be a point of pride for a region that so staunchly defends the environment for development? Or could Bachelor’s remoteness be flipped into an opportunity to reduce, in any way possible, the car-dependance that defines its recreational use today?

OK that was kind of a tangent. I didn’t get into this much with Merriman, and I didn’t press him on it. It’s not the resort president’s job to champion literal community building at the base of his ski area. But it could be the owner’s job - meaning Powdr, which leases the land from the U.S. Forest Service. Or it could be up to the people of Bend, who may decide, some day, that sending a half-million or more people to the local ski area annually by car is in fact rather senseless when some good number of them could actually be enticed to live at the base of the mountain.

Damn it I tried to escape the tangent and it lassoed me right back in. How about this:

Bachelor is great I love it everyone go there hurray!

Transcripts

There are two transcripts. Both are generated by robots. Both are helpful and defective in their own unique ways. I do not proofread either of them.

Transcript 1: Click the “transcript” button at the top of this article. You can only see this transcript on a computer. Because I don’t know why exactly but everything is getting better and dumber all at once it seems. Anyway, this is the transcript that the robots create when I upload the podcast to the internet. The cool thing about it is that you can click on any block of text and the audio will teleport there instantly. The uncool thing about this transcript is that it does not indicate who is talking at any given moment.

Transcript 2: You can read this below. This is the transcript that Zoom creates as we record the podcast. The cool thing about this transcript is that it indicates who is talking at any given moment. The uncool thing about this transcript is that the timestamps do not match the audio. Also, you cannot click on this text to move to the associated point in the audio.

Zoom

Stuart Winchester: My guest today is entering his fourth season as president and general manager of Mount Bachelor, Oregon.

00:17:55.000 --> 00:18:15.000

Stuart Winchester: The Mount Bachelor ski area is the largest in the Pacific Northwest, and one of the largest in the United States, with 4,323 acres served by 15 lifts. The mountain averages 410 inches of snow annually. Bachelor is one of seven U.S. ski areas owned by Park City-based Powder.

00:18:15.000 --> 00:18:30.000

Stuart Winchester: Prior to joining the team at Bachelor, he worked at sister resort Copper Mountain for seven years as vice president of finance. John Merriman is my guest. John, welcome to the storm. So glad we could make this one happen finally. How was your summer and how are your winter preparations going?

00:18:29.000 --> 00:18:47.000

John Merriman: Thanks, Stuart. Psyched to be here. Summer was great. I mean, from a personal standpoint, I had a little bit of a biking incident, broke my arm. So that created some challenge personally. But from a mountain standpoint, it was great. Weather was actually pretty good here.

00:18:38.000 --> 00:18:40.000

Stuart Winchester: Oh no.

00:18:47.000 --> 00:19:03.000

John Merriman: in Bend. Uh, we had some… some fires, as… as we’ll typically get, uh, in the summers, but, uh, you know, thankfully not a huge impact from those, so summer was great. We had our… we’re having our biggest construction season.

00:19:03.000 --> 00:19:05.000

John Merriman: Um, in recent memory.

00:19:04.000 --> 00:19:05.000

Stuart Winchester: Yeah.

00:19:05.000 --> 00:19:12.000

John Merriman: Um, here, we’ve got a lot, um, that we’re working on, um, for winter prep.

00:19:12.000 --> 00:19:17.000

Stuart Winchester: So, what was the bike accident? Was it at Bachelor, or was it just on the road?

00:19:15.000 --> 00:19:27.000

John Merriman: No, it was, uh, I ride my e-bike up to the mountain quite a bit, um, and I happened to just hit some bad pavement when I reached for a water bottle. Off I went.

00:19:19.000 --> 00:19:20.000

Stuart Winchester: Here.

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Stuart Winchester: Oh, gosh. Where’d you get hurt at?

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John Merriman: Yeah.

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John Merriman: Yeah, it was this whole area here. Boat soup.

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Stuart Winchester: Okay, okay.

00:19:36.000 --> 00:19:41.000

Stuart Winchester: Yeah, oh my gosh. Did they take care of you, though? Put it back together?

00:19:37.000 --> 00:19:38.000

John Merriman: Yep.

00:19:38.000 --> 00:19:43.000

John Merriman: Oh, yeah. Yeah, thankfully we have good surgeons here, so…

00:19:42.000 --> 00:19:57.000

Stuart Winchester: Yeah, it’s amazing when I broke my leg to look at the x-ray, and my leg, my tib-fib are in pieces, and they just put it back together, put a plate in, and I’m skiing like normal. It’s pretty amazing what they can do with that kind of stuff.

00:19:49.000 --> 00:19:50.000

John Merriman: Yep.

00:19:56.000 --> 00:20:00.000

John Merriman: It’s incredible. It’s incredible. Yeah.

00:19:57.000 --> 00:19:59.000

Stuart Winchester: All right.

00:19:59.000 --> 00:20:00.000

Stuart Winchester: Yeah.

00:20:00.000 --> 00:20:17.000

Stuart Winchester: Alright, John, let’s start with the Northwest Chairlift, and just to set this up for the listeners and viewers, this is a 96 Doppelmayr, so 30 years old. It’s 8,377 feet long, that makes it the 18th longest high-speed quad in America.

00:20:01.000 --> 00:20:02.000

John Merriman: Sure.

00:20:08.000 --> 00:20:09.000

John Merriman: Right.

00:20:16.000 --> 00:20:18.000

John Merriman: At one point, it was first.

00:20:17.000 --> 00:20:35.000

Stuart Winchester: And it is 2,365 vert. It is the 4th tallest chairlift and the 3rd tallest high-speed quad in the USA. Uh, the highest… the tallest high-speed is… is Sun Valley Challenger, followed by, uh, Snowbasin, John Paul, and, uh, Snowbird Peruvian. So, if… if anyone’s wondering what that list is.

00:20:35.000 --> 00:20:38.000

Stuart Winchester: And, uh, so, so, John.

00:20:38.000 --> 00:20:47.000

Stuart Winchester: You’re not replacing it, but you’re replacing a lot of pieces on it. So break this down for us. What are you doing with Northwest?

00:20:38.000 --> 00:20:40.000

John Merriman: Right.

00:20:47.000 --> 00:20:52.000

Stuart Winchester: chairlift, and why was it time for this major upgrade?

00:20:50.000 --> 00:21:05.000

John Merriman: Yeah, so, uh, glad you asked. We, uh… Northwest is our most popular lift, especially on powder days. Um, you know, it is all advanced terrain. Um, essentially, it’s… it’s bowls into tree skiing.

00:21:05.000 --> 00:21:21.000

John Merriman: Um, it’s got, you know, decent pitch to it, and like you mentioned, it’s one of the longest lifts going. I believe when it was put in, uh, it was either the, uh, biggest or one of the biggest, uh, back in the 90s. So, essentially.

00:21:17.000 --> 00:21:19.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

00:21:21.000 --> 00:21:26.000

John Merriman: We have been having fits with that lift, honestly. Um, it…

00:21:26.000 --> 00:21:40.000

John Merriman: over time, you know, the motor degrades. Over time, um, it doesn’t have the power that it once had when it was initially, uh, put in place. So, um…

00:21:38.000 --> 00:21:40.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

00:21:41.000 --> 00:21:49.000

John Merriman: We looked at it as… it’s just becoming somewhat unreliable. Um, you know, it had had…

00:21:49.000 --> 00:22:05.000

John Merriman: times when it wouldn’t be able to run at full capacity just because of power draw, uh, which was a big part of it. So it was kind of a two-pronged thing. The first thing we had to do was upgrade the power down to the lift, which we did. Um, we did that last season.

00:22:05.000 --> 00:22:21.000

John Merriman: Um, and then the second thing we did is this season, you know, Doppelmeyer kind of, they, they come in, and they do full specs on it, you know, they have to individually engineer each of these, so what they do is you leave the, you leave the towers in place.

00:22:21.000 --> 00:22:25.000

John Merriman: You leave the chairs in place, you leave the rope.

00:22:25.000 --> 00:22:40.000

John Merriman: And then you essentially replace all of the guts of the lift, and we did this for a couple of different reasons. Number one, um, is we have some wildlife restrictions with the Forest Service that we have to adhere to in this area. It’s spotted owl habitat.

00:22:41.000 --> 00:22:52.000

John Merriman: So, you know, the general rule is no work after October 1st in that area, and as you can imagine, trying to install a lift from October 1st to the time we open is not going to happen.

00:22:52.000 --> 00:23:10.000

John Merriman: So, now, that can be alleviated, but that takes years to get approval on that, typically. So, we kind of put our heads together with Doppelmayr, and we’re like, well, what else can we do? And they’re like, well, we’ve done some of these, what we call, modernizations. And so, we looked into that.

00:22:52.000 --> 00:22:54.000

Stuart Winchester: Right. Okay.

00:23:10.000 --> 00:23:25.000

John Merriman: And essentially what that does is it replaces, uh, the electric motor, it replaces the, uh, the APU and the EPU, all of the drives and controls. We recently replaced our Skyliner lift.

00:23:23.000 --> 00:23:24.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

00:23:25.000 --> 00:23:27.000

John Merriman: Uh, 3 summers ago.

00:23:27.000 --> 00:23:35.000

John Merriman: and essentially, we’re gonna have all of the same components, um, as our Skyliner lift. So it’s… it’s almost… it’s like…

00:23:35.000 --> 00:23:52.000

John Merriman: a brand new lift without having to replace everything, and some of the more expensive things that you have to do, as you know, is to fly towers, you know, and all of that type of thing. And the big benefit to us that I like is that we’re having full parking down at the bottom now.

00:23:52.000 --> 00:24:08.000

John Merriman: So essentially, we can take all the chairs off of the lift during a storm cycle, and then we run it on night drive. So essentially, we do that with our Summit lift now, but essentially what that will do is it runs the rope without chairs on it at, like, a half a meter per second.

00:23:53.000 --> 00:23:54.000

Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm, okay.

00:24:08.000 --> 00:24:29.000

John Merriman: And what that’ll do is, in some of the big storms that we get, it alleviates some of the ice getting on there. So if that can continue to run, then when we go to start it up after the storm, it’s a heck of a lot easier. Sometimes it takes us, you know, a full day to recover from a storm over there, just because of all the ice you gotta get off the lift, and you gotta dig it out, and all of that stuff.

00:24:29.000 --> 00:24:37.000

John Merriman: We’re still gonna have to dig it out, but ideally, we have a lot less ice clearing that we have to do, and we get it open for people on powder days a lot earlier.

00:24:38.000 --> 00:24:54.000

Stuart Winchester: I mean, that’s got to be a heck of a big garage. I don’t know if this has changed. Liftblog, and by the way, for anyone watching on stormskiing.com or YouTube at Storm Ski Journal, I was going through Liftblog’s pictures of the Northwest Trail Lift, which I was not able to ride when I was there.

00:24:54.000 --> 00:25:05.000

Stuart Winchester: only Outback. So… so Lyft blog lists 176 chairs for Northwest. I’m not sure if that changed over the years, but…

00:25:02.000 --> 00:25:04.000

John Merriman: That’s about right.

00:25:05.000 --> 00:25:10.000

Stuart Winchester: Okay, so are all of them are going to be able to fit in this garage?

00:25:08.000 --> 00:25:17.000

John Merriman: Well, it’s not a build… we have a small building to do work on it… on them. They’re actually going to be outside, just under an enclosure.

00:25:13.000 --> 00:25:14.000

Stuart Winchester: Okay.

00:25:17.000 --> 00:25:26.000

John Merriman: So they’re gonna be protected from the weather still, but it’s not… it’s not a complete building. That… you’re right, that would have to be enormous, uh, for people to do that.

00:25:17.000 --> 00:25:18.000

Stuart Winchester: Hmm. Okay.

00:25:20.000 --> 00:25:21.000

Stuart Winchester: Right.

00:25:24.000 --> 00:25:26.000

Stuart Winchester: So you…

00:25:26.000 --> 00:25:36.000

Stuart Winchester: So you mentioned Skyliner, and yeah, that’s a beautiful lift. I was also flipping through pictures of Lift Blog with the 6, and I was able to ride that lift. It’s really nice.

00:25:30.000 --> 00:25:32.000

John Merriman: Right.

00:25:34.000 --> 00:25:37.000

John Merriman: Yeah, you and I wrote that one. Yep.

00:25:36.000 --> 00:25:39.000

Stuart Winchester: Yeah, yeah, so just…

00:25:39.000 --> 00:25:41.000

Stuart Winchester: Zooming out a little bit here.

00:25:40.000 --> 00:25:41.000

John Merriman: Mm-hmm.

00:25:41.000 --> 00:25:44.000

Stuart Winchester: That lift was…

00:25:44.000 --> 00:26:00.000

Stuart Winchester: A, it replaced a 1989 Doppelmayr high speed quad with a six pack. So that was obviously probably a very expensive project. The price tags I get are, you know, 12, 15 million for a lift of, of that size and length.

00:25:48.000 --> 00:25:50.000

John Merriman: Right.

00:25:50.000 --> 00:25:51.000

John Merriman: Right.

00:25:55.000 --> 00:25:56.000

John Merriman: Yep.

00:25:57.000 --> 00:25:58.000

John Merriman: Sure.

00:26:00.000 --> 00:26:07.000

Stuart Winchester: So, take us through the thought process internally, as you said, okay, Skyliner’s done.

00:26:06.000 --> 00:26:07.000

John Merriman: Yep.

00:26:07.000 --> 00:26:23.000

Stuart Winchester: And Northwest has to be next. Do we replace it or do we just upgrade it? And ultimately, why did you decide on upgrade? I know you mentioned some things with, with, uh, environmental stuff, but just take us through the thought process of, of, of, of modernizing instead of replacing.

00:26:16.000 --> 00:26:18.000

John Merriman: Yep.

00:26:22.000 --> 00:26:39.000

John Merriman: Yep. Now, replacing was an attractive option. It really was, because, you know, if we were to replace it, we probably would have done a six-pack there, too, just because six-packs have the weight. And, you know, we, especially early season, we tend to have a bit of wind.

00:26:32.000 --> 00:26:33.000

Stuart Winchester: Okay.

00:26:39.000 --> 00:27:00.000

John Merriman: Um, and Skyliner has been excellent in the wind, and just because of the weight, uh, primarily. So, I don’t think we necessarily need the volume out there, uh, because it still is advanced terrain, you know, a limited amount of guests are able to ski over there. It certainly gets busy on powder days.

00:26:40.000 --> 00:26:41.000

Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.

00:26:44.000 --> 00:26:46.000

Stuart Winchester: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:26:48.000 --> 00:26:49.000

Stuart Winchester: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:27:00.000 --> 00:27:06.000

John Merriman: You know, but nothing usually longer than a 15-minute lift line or so. Um…

00:27:01.000 --> 00:27:02.000

Stuart Winchester: Down.

00:27:06.000 --> 00:27:19.000

John Merriman: But it really came down to cost, Stuart. Um, and it was, you know, a six-pack out there, you’re talking quite a bit bigger number than what you had quoted earlier. You know, it’s 15 plus.

00:27:19.000 --> 00:27:27.000

John Merriman: million, probably, for a six-pack out there, being that size. Whereas, you can do a modernization for a fraction of that.

00:27:28.000 --> 00:27:31.000

Stuart Winchester: How much of a fraction? Can you give us a ballpark?

00:27:29.000 --> 00:27:34.000

John Merriman: Yeah, I mean, I would say anywhere from a third to a half.

00:27:34.000 --> 00:27:46.000

Stuart Winchester: Yeah, and that’s really smart, and I’ve seen a lot of ski areas begin to do this. The Fairbank Group, for example, did that at both Bromley and Cranmore out in New England.

00:27:46.000 --> 00:27:48.000

Stuart Winchester: Is that…

00:27:48.000 --> 00:28:05.000

Stuart Winchester: Are you kind of, kind of wait and see how well it works out, or is that your, is that maybe setting the template for what you’ll do with Outback and Little Pine and some of these, well, I imagine the Yons will go when they go, but, but some of these older high speed quads.

00:28:00.000 --> 00:28:02.000

John Merriman: Yeah, thank you.

00:28:05.000 --> 00:28:10.000

Stuart Winchester: Would you rather modernize or replace or is this going to be a case by case?

00:28:08.000 --> 00:28:22.000

John Merriman: You know, it depends. We are actually modernizing Little Pine right now, too. We’ve been as public about that, uh, but, you know, we are modernizing that one now, too, and that lift is the exact same model as Summit.

00:28:12.000 --> 00:28:14.000

Stuart Winchester: Oh, no way, okay.

00:28:15.000 --> 00:28:16.000

Stuart Winchester: Okay.

00:28:22.000 --> 00:28:35.000

John Merriman: And so the reason that we’re doing Little Pine is because we want to see exactly how that’s going to work, because we really would like to modernize Summit, um, at some point in the near future.

00:28:22.000 --> 00:28:23.000

Stuart Winchester: Okay.

00:28:28.000 --> 00:28:29.000

Stuart Winchester: Okay.

00:28:35.000 --> 00:28:51.000

John Merriman: Because that would be a much more economical way to do that lift, because, you know, obviously that lift is… has buildings top and bottom, and it is… the terrain up there is, you know, like the surface of the moon. Um, it is extremely difficult to work in.

00:28:40.000 --> 00:28:41.000

Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Okay.

00:28:51.000 --> 00:29:06.000

John Merriman: Um, and is certainly subject to the elements. So, like, a lift like Summit, we would love to be able to modernize, so we’re testing that out on Little Pine. Now, a lift like Outback is actually too old. So, those… that…

00:28:59.000 --> 00:29:01.000

Stuart Winchester: Yeah.

00:29:05.000 --> 00:29:08.000

Stuart Winchester: Oh, at 87, yeah.

00:29:06.000 --> 00:29:21.000

John Merriman: Yep, that lift is actually too old, and Doppelmeyer’s not even able to modernize something like that. So, when we do replace Outback, that will either be with a brand new lift, or reusing one of our other lifts that we replace.

00:29:12.000 --> 00:29:13.000

Stuart Winchester: Right.

00:29:22.000 --> 00:29:40.000

Stuart Winchester: Okay, yeah, let’s… I just want to bring up the trail map here for folks who may not be as familiar with the mountain, so if you’re watching on YouTube or StormSkiing.com, so this… it’s a little small, but this is Northwest, this is what John and I were mainly focused on, and there’s… LiftBlog has this awesome picture that kind of shows you the scale of it, just going all the way out into the wilder.

00:29:23.000 --> 00:29:25.000

John Merriman: Sure.

00:29:37.000 --> 00:29:38.000

John Merriman: Right.

00:29:39.000 --> 00:29:40.000

John Merriman: Yep.

00:29:40.000 --> 00:29:44.000

Stuart Winchester: Uh, in the summer, and that crazy dude probably hiked that. Um…

00:29:44.000 --> 00:29:58.000

Stuart Winchester: And then Outback is next, and Outback is an 87 Doppelmeyer, and so that’s one of those older ones. And then you have Skyliner, Pine Martin. Pine Martin is…

00:29:49.000 --> 00:29:50.000

John Merriman: Right.

00:29:55.000 --> 00:29:56.000

John Merriman: Yep.

00:29:58.000 --> 00:30:06.000

Stuart Winchester: let’s see, oh, that’s a newer one. Uh, and then you have Summit over here. So what are you doing with… with Little Pine, which is right here out of the main base lodge?

00:29:59.000 --> 00:30:00.000

John Merriman: Yep.

00:30:04.000 --> 00:30:05.000

John Merriman: Yep.

00:30:05.000 --> 00:30:22.000

John Merriman: Yeah, so Little Pine is a nice little beginner lift that we have out here in West Village. So we’re essentially doing the same thing. We are replacing the electric motor, the APU, the EPU, and all of the drives and components. So again, that will mirror, kind of, what.

00:30:13.000 --> 00:30:14.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

00:30:22.000 --> 00:30:33.000

John Merriman: what our experience has been with Skyliner, which has been a really effective lift for us. So, our team is already really used to using those drives and controls, and so, you know, it should be seamless.

00:30:34.000 --> 00:30:37.000

Stuart Winchester: So, just looking at…

00:30:37.000 --> 00:30:41.000

Stuart Winchester: the rest of the Lyft fleet. So…

00:30:41.000 --> 00:30:44.000

Stuart Winchester: The team decided to do Northwest.

00:30:43.000 --> 00:30:44.000

John Merriman: Yep.

00:30:44.000 --> 00:30:54.000

Stuart Winchester: for Outback, and I guess you are doing Little Pine and Sunrise, which is also a 93 Doppelmeyer high-speed quad. You know.

00:30:50.000 --> 00:30:51.000

John Merriman: Yep.

00:30:54.000 --> 00:30:57.000

Stuart Winchester: Was it just the particular…

00:30:57.000 --> 00:31:04.000

Stuart Winchester: Because I would imagine this one probably runs less than the others, because it’s so far over, and it opens later in the season. Maybe I’m wrong about that.

00:31:04.000 --> 00:31:13.000

Stuart Winchester: But what was it? Was it just the power issues that made you have to concentrate on that one first, even though it’s a 96 and a little newer than some of these?

00:31:08.000 --> 00:31:09.000

John Merriman: Yeah.

00:31:11.000 --> 00:31:15.000

John Merriman: Yeah, it was honestly our least reliable lift.

00:31:15.000 --> 00:31:19.000

John Merriman: Um, you know, when we run…

00:31:19.000 --> 00:31:39.000

John Merriman: stats on that. It was, you know, it certainly had, um, some maintenance issues. Um, it had a lot of, like, as I mentioned, some power issues, you know, it was underpowered out there. And, uh, so, you know, we put a lot into getting, um, additional power out there, new lines.

00:31:33.000 --> 00:31:34.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

00:31:39.000 --> 00:31:43.000

John Merriman: With the modernization and we think it’s going to run great.

00:31:44.000 --> 00:31:49.000

Stuart Winchester: That’s amazing. So I want to talk a little more about the power issue, because that’s been…

00:31:49.000 --> 00:31:58.000

Stuart Winchester: Man, that’s been dogging you guys for years and years, and I’m not sure if I heard this right, but it sounded like earlier you said that.

00:31:58.000 --> 00:32:04.000

Stuart Winchester: the power supply was initially good to Northwest, and then it wasn’t, so just take us through.

00:32:04.000 --> 00:32:10.000

Stuart Winchester: Resort-wide, the power upgrades that you’ve had to make, and the resources it took to pull that off.

00:32:05.000 --> 00:32:07.000

John Merriman: Yeah.

00:32:08.000 --> 00:32:26.000

John Merriman: Yeah, sure. It actually is a huge project for us. We actually have a power line that runs up to Mount Bachelor that we own and manage. We’re in the process of turning that back over to the utility company.

00:32:19.000 --> 00:32:21.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

00:32:26.000 --> 00:32:41.000

John Merriman: And in order to do that, uh, we have to upgrade the line. So we have to upgrade the poles and upgrade the line coming out, which would be nice because, you know, we’ll get the upgraded power coming out, and then we’ll also get some fiber optics and stuff like that, which would be really nice for us.

00:32:41.000 --> 00:32:44.000

John Merriman: Um, and…

00:32:44.000 --> 00:32:55.000

John Merriman: You know, that’s a multi-year project, as you can imagine, you know, that goes 12 miles through the forest, and so, you know, a lot of approvals, um, through there, which we’re working through. It’s currently, um…

00:32:50.000 --> 00:32:52.000

Stuart Winchester: Jeez.

00:32:55.000 --> 00:33:11.000

John Merriman: in submission to the Forest Service. I’m expecting to begin work on that, um, in the summer, um, as far as the… the big project. We’ve been doing lots of things internally here. Um, in the meantime, we’ve been replacing a lot of our backup power.

00:33:08.000 --> 00:33:09.000

Stuart Winchester: Yeah.

00:33:11.000 --> 00:33:32.000

John Merriman: Um, and then, um, as I mentioned, we ran a new line to Northwest. Now, the issue that I was, I was pointing out before wasn’t necessarily, uh, a power issue. What, what happens is, you know, the motors over time become a little bit weaker, a little bit weaker, you know, as with any, anything else.

00:33:32.000 --> 00:33:37.000

John Merriman: When something’s designed to be… to pull a lift that big.

00:33:37.000 --> 00:33:53.000

John Merriman: Right? Um, if it just degrades a little bit, all of a sudden, it’s gonna be pulling… it needs to pull more, right? And so, when it’s trying to pull more resources, sometimes there isn’t a lot of resources to pull from. And so, you know, it was… it was causing…

00:33:53.000 --> 00:34:06.000

John Merriman: some power blips on the resort if we were fully loading it on some big days. And so, you know, by replacing the power line and modernizing the lift, we won’t see those issues.

00:33:59.000 --> 00:34:00.000

Stuart Winchester: Oh, wow.

00:34:06.000 --> 00:34:12.000

Stuart Winchester: So do you think the power issue will be fixed in time for this season or what’s the timeline? What’s that?

00:34:09.000 --> 00:34:23.000

John Merriman: Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, we shouldn’t notice any issue with Northwest. I mean, what we’ve got going forward, essentially, will just be setting us up for the future. You know, we feel good about where we’re at right now.

00:34:24.000 --> 00:34:39.000

Stuart Winchester: Right, so when you… it doesn’t sound that old when you… in the world of chairless, but who’s driving a 1996 car around, right? So it’s an older motor, and when you take it out, is the new one more powerful, more efficient, both? What’s the difference?

00:34:30.000 --> 00:34:31.000

John Merriman: Right.

00:34:37.000 --> 00:34:46.000

John Merriman: It’s much more efficient, yes. Much more efficient, and yes, yeah, more powerful. Um, but, you know, it’s, it’s all…

00:34:39.000 --> 00:34:40.000

Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Yeah.

00:34:46.000 --> 00:35:03.000

John Merriman: It’ll be able to run at higher speeds than what we were able to run the last one before as well. I mean we’re we’re constantly having to lower the speed due to wind and those kind of things that will always exist. But you know on on nice clear days we should be able to run it at a nice high speed too.

00:34:58.000 --> 00:34:59.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

00:35:04.000 --> 00:35:19.000

Stuart Winchester: All right, John, just a couple more lift questions here. I’m gonna bring the trail map back up. So you have, like I said, three yon triples still running, uh, the red lift, the rainbow lift, and what’s the other one? Is it early? Is it early? Uh, Alpenglow.

00:35:06.000 --> 00:35:07.000

John Merriman: Sure.

00:35:12.000 --> 00:35:14.000

John Merriman: Yep.

00:35:18.000 --> 00:35:20.000

John Merriman: Help him look.

00:35:19.000 --> 00:35:28.000

Stuart Winchester: Okay, and this… so this one was moved over from Sunrise. So in the… in the MDP that I read, which was from 2012 or 13, called for shortening red.

00:35:21.000 --> 00:35:22.000

John Merriman: Right.

00:35:25.000 --> 00:35:26.000

John Merriman: Yep.

00:35:27.000 --> 00:35:28.000

John Merriman: Yep.

00:35:28.000 --> 00:35:43.000

Stuart Winchester: uh, shortening rainbow, moving this high-speed quad over here, putting the Sunrise high-speed quad, for those listening, over on the rainbow line, on a shorter line, and then putting a six-pack for Sunrise. I think, if I have any of that wrong, just correct me, but.

00:35:43.000 --> 00:35:50.000

Stuart Winchester: Looking at those lifts and that overall plan, is that still the plan or do you have something else in mind?

00:35:49.000 --> 00:36:07.000

John Merriman: No, we’re actually working on the MVP now, and we’re getting closer to having that put together, but I think that has changed. I mean, the rainbow lift has been shortened, so that has already happened. That happened when we put in the Cloud Chaser lift in 2016.

00:35:58.000 --> 00:35:59.000

Stuart Winchester: Okay.

00:36:02.000 --> 00:36:03.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

00:36:03.000 --> 00:36:05.000

Stuart Winchester: Oh, it did, okay.

00:36:07.000 --> 00:36:24.000

John Merriman: Um, but I think the idea for the future would be to put a high speed at Rainbow and take it back up to where it was before, so take it up a little bit higher. Uh, we feel like that gives you kind of a… another way out of the Sunrise base area as…

00:36:07.000 --> 00:36:08.000

Stuart Winchester: Okay.

00:36:17.000 --> 00:36:18.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

00:36:18.000 --> 00:36:20.000

Stuart Winchester: Okay.

00:36:24.000 --> 00:36:37.000

John Merriman: as capacity becomes more… more constrained over there over time. You know, and I think a six-pack makes sense at sunrise, sometime down the road, you know, that’s in our plan. Um…

00:36:29.000 --> 00:36:30.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

00:36:37.000 --> 00:36:49.000

John Merriman: Red, uh, probably won’t exist in its current stage in the future, because Pine… the idea would be to move the base of Pine Martin over to where Red is, and perhaps do a chandelier.

00:36:42.000 --> 00:36:44.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

00:36:48.000 --> 00:36:49.000

Stuart Winchester: Okay.

00:36:49.000 --> 00:37:06.000

John Merriman: there, because we have this beautiful building, Pine Martin Lodge there, you can see on the map, is just a gorgeous building. And, you know, we want to use that as much as we possibly can, and having some gondola cabins to allow that, especially in the summer, uh, would be great for us.

00:36:50.000 --> 00:36:51.000

Stuart Winchester: Ah, cool.

00:36:56.000 --> 00:36:57.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

00:37:05.000 --> 00:37:06.000

Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.

00:37:06.000 --> 00:37:10.000

John Merriman: So I think, you know, a six-pack…

00:37:10.000 --> 00:37:23.000

John Merriman: uh… with gondola combo, I think similar to what Copper does, or what Beaver Creek does, I think would be a really good solution for us there, because a lot of people like to lap pine, too, so you wouldn’t want to do a full gondola.

00:37:16.000 --> 00:37:18.000

Stuart Winchester: Yeah, thank you.

00:37:23.000 --> 00:37:28.000

John Merriman: But I kind of like having the flexibility there. Um…

00:37:23.000 --> 00:37:25.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

00:37:26.000 --> 00:37:28.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

00:37:28.000 --> 00:37:37.000

John Merriman: And, uh, yeah, that would probably… the Pine Martin replacement is probably what would be next on our docket once the funds become available.

00:37:37.000 --> 00:37:47.000

John Merriman: Um, and what I would love to do, and I don’t know if this is going to be possible or not, but what I would love to do is take the existing pine and replace Outback with that.

00:37:37.000 --> 00:37:39.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

00:37:47.000 --> 00:37:52.000

John Merriman: And, and perhaps just modernize pine, um, in place at Outback.

00:37:48.000 --> 00:37:50.000

Stuart Winchester: Oh, okay.

00:37:53.000 --> 00:38:03.000

John Merriman: But we’re still in the beginning stages on that, on researching if that’s possible, so that may not be possible, but, you know, uh…

00:37:54.000 --> 00:37:56.000

Stuart Winchester: Little Pine?

00:37:56.000 --> 00:37:57.000

Stuart Winchester: Okay.

00:37:57.000 --> 00:37:58.000

Stuart Winchester: Yeah, I’m.

00:37:59.000 --> 00:38:01.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

00:38:03.000 --> 00:38:12.000

John Merriman: It may be, and if it is, that would probably be the most economical way to go that would really still be very effective for us.

00:38:09.000 --> 00:38:11.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

00:38:13.000 --> 00:38:18.000

Stuart Winchester: And then when you… when you get to Outback, would that be a 6?

00:38:16.000 --> 00:38:22.000

John Merriman: That would be a 4, because you would be just taking the existing Pine 4 and putting that over there.

00:38:21.000 --> 00:38:24.000

Stuart Winchester: Yeah. I see. Okay.

00:38:22.000 --> 00:38:26.000

John Merriman: And and then replacing pine with the with the chandelier.

00:38:26.000 --> 00:38:32.000

Stuart Winchester: when I was skiing around, I don’t remember if you made this comment, or if it was just someone I was skiing with.

00:38:32.000 --> 00:38:40.000

Stuart Winchester: that it would make sense to have gondola cars on here at some point, but I don’t know if… is that ever been a consideration?

00:38:39.000 --> 00:38:49.000

John Merriman: Not really. I’m not sure the wind would be too kind to the gondola cabins up there. Um, it would be great, um…

00:38:44.000 --> 00:38:45.000

Stuart Winchester: Okay.

00:38:49.000 --> 00:38:54.000

John Merriman: That lift is such a unicorn. I mean…

00:38:54.000 --> 00:39:02.000

John Merriman: you know, when they put this in, and… well, I think they originally put it in in the 80s, and then they replaced it in the late 90s, but um…

00:39:02.000 --> 00:39:15.000

John Merriman: I wish I was here for that, because it is such an adventure, um, out in that terrain, and you know, I mean, the options for us is either do something in place with the buildings that already exist.

00:39:08.000 --> 00:39:09.000

Stuart Winchester: Right.

00:39:15.000 --> 00:39:30.000

John Merriman: or build something next to it, because that’s probably a 2-year lift replacement if you have to replace all the buildings as well. Um, and, you know, it’s our signature. It’s… it’s the way that we can do 360-degree skiing. So… so, um, you know, it’s… it’s…

00:39:15.000 --> 00:39:16.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

00:39:20.000 --> 00:39:21.000

Stuart Winchester: Okay.

00:39:30.000 --> 00:39:36.000

John Merriman: Even though it’s the lift that’s open the least amount of time, it’s probably one of our most important lifts.

00:39:37.000 --> 00:39:49.000

Stuart Winchester: So, I’m looking here, I pulled up Google Earth, I pulled up Mount Bachelor on Google Earth, and… because I want to show the… everyone who’s watching, and communicates to everyone who’s listening, that when you look at the trail map.

00:39:38.000 --> 00:39:40.000

John Merriman: Yep.

00:39:49.000 --> 00:40:02.000

Stuart Winchester: there’s really not a lot of… there’s nothing on the back side. Google Earth gives you a better sense of, you know, there’s actually lifts on it, looks like about 60% of the mountain. Just take us through this, John. I mean, first of all.

00:39:57.000 --> 00:39:58.000

John Merriman: Yep.

00:40:02.000 --> 00:40:15.000

Stuart Winchester: I can’t imagine what would happen if someone tried to build a mountain on a volcano today. I can’t believe this and the Mount Hood ski areas exist, because we just never, ever get through environmental approvals. But as far as the backside goes, has it always been…

00:40:07.000 --> 00:40:08.000

John Merriman: Right.

00:40:15.000 --> 00:40:26.000

Stuart Winchester: just understood that there won’t be lifts back there. Is that part of your restrictions or lease, or does it just not make sense because of weather? Just take us through why all the lifts are on this side of the mountain.

00:40:18.000 --> 00:40:20.000

John Merriman: Well…

00:40:24.000 --> 00:40:25.000

John Merriman: Yep.

00:40:25.000 --> 00:40:31.000

John Merriman: I mean, you know, it’s a niche thing to get lifts out there, because, you know, I mean, it’s…

00:40:26.000 --> 00:40:29.000

Stuart Winchester: The northwest, the northeast.

00:40:31.000 --> 00:40:46.000

John Merriman: You know, it’s typically open, you know, call it 75 days a year on estimate. You know, I don’t know… I have about the number, so it’s around 75 days.

00:40:39.000 --> 00:40:41.000

Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.

00:40:46.000 --> 00:40:51.000

John Merriman: Um, but, like, if you’re where you’re at right now.

00:40:47.000 --> 00:40:48.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

00:40:51.000 --> 00:41:07.000

John Merriman: is not a bad opportunity to have a lift just west of Northwest. Um, we’re considering it in our MDP now, I’m not sure if it’ll end up in there or not, um, because, you know, we’ve… obviously, we’ve got to get public comment and… and, um…

00:40:51.000 --> 00:40:52.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

00:40:56.000 --> 00:40:57.000

Stuart Winchester: Okay.

00:41:02.000 --> 00:41:03.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

00:41:07.000 --> 00:41:23.000

John Merriman: you know, other… other opinions on that, too. But, um, I think a lift out there where it says West Bowls would be a pretty fun lift to have, to be able to lap. Because right now, in order to do, like, a 360 lap, the most efficient way.

00:41:15.000 --> 00:41:16.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

00:41:18.000 --> 00:41:20.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

00:41:23.000 --> 00:41:41.000

John Merriman: is to go up Summit, go down the backside, go over towards Northwest, and kind of come all the way around, and then you gotta come back up to Northwest, get all the way back over to the base of Summit, and then come back up. It’s about a 45-minute lap if you’re hustling.

00:41:27.000 --> 00:41:29.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

00:41:41.000 --> 00:41:43.000

Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm. Right.

00:41:41.000 --> 00:41:50.000

John Merriman: Um, which, you know, could be even longer than that. But if we put a lift out there in the West Bowls, it would be something that you might be able to just lap.

00:41:50.000 --> 00:41:58.000

John Merriman: And just hang out there until it’s time to go, and when it’s time to go, you just pop down to Northwest, um, and get out.

00:41:50.000 --> 00:41:51.000

Stuart Winchester: Okay.

00:41:58.000 --> 00:42:07.000

Stuart Winchester: Most of the lifts other than Summit seem to end right around Treeline. Is that just because above that they start to get really wind affected?

00:42:06.000 --> 00:42:10.000

John Merriman: Exactly, exactly, especially on that west side.

00:42:07.000 --> 00:42:09.000

Stuart Winchester: Okay.

00:42:10.000 --> 00:42:25.000

Stuart Winchester: Yeah, and looking at this on Google Earth, it’s amazing how steep the backside is, so it’s probably best if that’s left for the experts on good days. Okay, John, I want to talk about another huge project.

00:42:16.000 --> 00:42:17.000

John Merriman: Yep.

00:42:25.000 --> 00:42:27.000

Stuart Winchester: That you’ve been working on and.

00:42:27.000 --> 00:42:37.000

Stuart Winchester: It’s the, this wood burning furnace deal. So. So tell us about this. Tell us what’s going on and why you’re doing this.

00:42:30.000 --> 00:42:31.000

John Merriman: Good.

00:42:35.000 --> 00:42:42.000

John Merriman: Yeah, we’re really excited about it, and we’re, you know, we’re very thankful that we got a lot of help on this project, you know, we’re.

00:42:42.000 --> 00:42:57.000

John Merriman: we got some grants from… from the, uh, the Forest Service along with, um, the state, uh, and the county, uh, on this, and essentially what it… what… the way that I describe it in kind of simpleton terms.

00:42:51.000 --> 00:42:53.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

00:42:57.000 --> 00:43:16.000

John Merriman: is it’s like the world’s biggest Traeger grill. So, essentially, um, you know, we live in a big forested area, in an area that’s susceptible to forest fires, you know, in this… in our county, in our state here. Um, and essentially, what this is gonna do is it’s gonna allow us to use the slash.

00:43:00.000 --> 00:43:01.000

Stuart Winchester: Okay.

00:43:16.000 --> 00:43:28.000

John Merriman: um, from some of the cleanup work that the Forest Service is doing, and then we load that into our building, and essentially, it will then feed into a boiler.

00:43:28.000 --> 00:43:44.000

John Merriman: So, it burns the wood chips, feeds into the boiler, and then the boiler sends hot water out into the resort. So, essentially, that’s going to be heat and hot water for the majority of our buildings once it’s fully complete. And it’s going to save 90% of our propane use.

00:43:29.000 --> 00:43:30.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

00:43:44.000 --> 00:44:00.000

John Merriman: So, it’s a really great way to use the available resources that we have for heat and hot water, and it’s pretty much unlimited resources. We have a contractor right in town here who’s prepared.

00:43:45.000 --> 00:43:47.000

Stuart Winchester: It’s amazing.

00:44:00.000 --> 00:44:08.000

John Merriman: Um, to deliver wood chips, when this thing’s fully operational, it’s gonna take at least one tractor-trailer truck full of wood chips a week.

00:44:08.000 --> 00:44:29.000

John Merriman: I mean, this thing, the scale of it’s enormous and we’re really excited for it. We got it fired up the other day. It is operational. We have a grand opening for it here in a couple of weeks that we’re really excited for. And again, we’re just really thankful that we did it with, you know, partnership with the Forest Service, the state and the county.

00:44:30.000 --> 00:44:47.000

Stuart Winchester: This is a pretty old map that I have up here, but I’m curious how accurate this is from 2012, I think, where the biomass plant would be over here, right by Skyliner. And then these are the utility corridors that it sends. Is that pretty much the map you ended up following?

00:44:38.000 --> 00:44:39.000

John Merriman: Yep.

00:44:42.000 --> 00:44:44.000

John Merriman: Correct.

00:44:45.000 --> 00:44:47.000

John Merriman: Yep. Yep.

00:44:47.000 --> 00:45:01.000

Stuart Winchester: So, what I really love about this project, I had the general manager of Pajarito in New Mexico on recently, and Pajarito has never been able to live up to its potential because they didn’t have a good snowmaking system, but they partnered with.

00:45:01.000 --> 00:45:06.000

Stuart Winchester: Some government agencies and ran a snowmaking pipe.

00:45:06.000 --> 00:45:20.000

Stuart Winchester: 2 miles up from the city, and… and it’s gonna help, and they put, you know, taps along the way to help with forest fire mitigation, and then they’ll also have a bigger pond that can be helped, that can be dipped for forest fire mitigation.

00:45:08.000 --> 00:45:10.000

John Merriman: Mmhm.

00:45:14.000 --> 00:45:15.000

John Merriman: Oh, that’s great.

00:45:20.000 --> 00:45:31.000

Stuart Winchester: I noticed this was also a partnership. U.S. Forest Service, uh, Department of Energy from Oregon, Deschutes County, uh, Republic Services. There’s more, Wisewood Energy.

00:45:22.000 --> 00:45:23.000

John Merriman: Right.

00:45:30.000 --> 00:45:31.000

John Merriman: Right.

00:45:31.000 --> 00:45:33.000

Stuart Winchester: But I’m curious.

00:45:33.000 --> 00:45:37.000

Stuart Winchester: Because I’m starting to see ski areas…

00:45:37.000 --> 00:45:40.000

Stuart Winchester: Because they’re, in many cases, because they’re all in rural areas.

00:45:40.000 --> 00:45:44.000

Stuart Winchester: become sort of these outposts for…

00:45:44.000 --> 00:45:51.000

Stuart Winchester: helping to mitigate wildfires in a lot of different ways. And typically, it’s with these snowmaking systems.

00:45:50.000 --> 00:45:51.000

John Merriman: Mmhm.

00:45:51.000 --> 00:46:00.000

Stuart Winchester: This is another one, because, you know, this wood would have just been burned. Now you’re taking it in. Just talk a little bit about the partnership and, uh…

00:45:55.000 --> 00:45:56.000

John Merriman: Right.

00:46:00.000 --> 00:46:08.000

Stuart Winchester: Did they help pay for it? Because this is something that benefits so many different agencies and parties?

00:46:02.000 --> 00:46:03.000

John Merriman: Yeah.

00:46:06.000 --> 00:46:17.000

John Merriman: Yeah, so they did help pay for it, uh, which was great, because, you know, the other big benefit to this is when it burns, it doesn’t just go up in the atmosphere, it goes through a bunch of different filters.

00:46:17.000 --> 00:46:40.000

John Merriman: Um, and I’m sure there’s much fancier words that the engineers use, but, um, you know, they essentially go through these filters so that by the time it gets into the atmosphere, there’s almost no smoke. It’s almost just like vapor, um, that goes into the atmosphere. So not only, you know, it saves us from having to burn a bunch of slash piles in the Forest Service, which means, you know, obviously that carbon just goes right into the atmosphere.

00:46:18.000 --> 00:46:19.000

Stuart Winchester: Hmm. Okay.

00:46:31.000 --> 00:46:32.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

00:46:40.000 --> 00:46:43.000

John Merriman: Here it’s being alleviated before it gets up there.

00:46:43.000 --> 00:46:45.000

John Merriman: So…

00:46:44.000 --> 00:46:58.000

Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Yeah, what a cool project, and I know you’ve been planning on that one for a long time, and it’s not the one that skiers would typically get so excited about, but it sounds like it’ll make a big difference for Bachelor. Let’s talk about…

00:46:52.000 --> 00:46:53.000

John Merriman: Done.

00:46:58.000 --> 00:47:03.000

Stuart Winchester: tickets and passes here, John. I really like Powder’s.

00:46:58.000 --> 00:47:00.000

John Merriman: Sure.

00:47:04.000 --> 00:47:22.000

Stuart Winchester: I don’t know if it’s a policy, but at Copper, at Snowbird, at Bachelor, when you buy an adult pass, you get a free kid’s pass. So talk to us about that and what the age is, because I think Copper is 17, Snowbird might be the same.

00:47:22.000 --> 00:47:27.000

Stuart Winchester: So yeah, just take us through it and why the number is the number.

00:47:24.000 --> 00:47:26.000

John Merriman: Sure.

00:47:26.000 --> 00:47:46.000

John Merriman: Sure, so we kicked this off, uh, two seasons ago, um, with Kids Ski Free. It’s something that, um, I really became fond of, uh, when I was at Copper. It’s, you know, something we had done at Copper for a while before that, and when I started at Copper, we were at 12 years old, and then, you know, we moved it to 15, and.

00:47:46.000 --> 00:48:03.000

John Merriman: And now I think they’ve moved it to 17. But, um, it’s really, uh, allows access onto the mountain. That’s the big part for us, right? I mean, we have Bend nearby, you know, we’re lucky enough to have, you know, 100,000, uh, population city here.

00:48:03.000 --> 00:48:18.000

John Merriman: Um, there are a lot of kids, and there are a lot of people who might not otherwise be able to ski. Um, because, you know, our sport is an expensive sport. There’s, you know, no question about it. But, if we can make it just a little bit more accessible for youth.

00:48:18.000 --> 00:48:33.000

John Merriman: to get onto our mountain, we’re gonna do it. And that was kind of a big, you know, when we pitched it to Powder, you know, obviously we’ve had experience at Powder doing it at Copper and Snowbird, so, you know, we didn’t get a lot of pushback on that.

00:48:33.000 --> 00:48:53.000

John Merriman: Um, and then, you know what? You end up selling… you know, I think we ended up, the first year, we sold a thousand more kids passes than what we normally would have. And, you know, that’s a thousand more kids on the mountain that wouldn’t have been there otherwise. And it’s changed the complete dynamic of our resort, Stuart. It’s made it much more family-friendly, which I love.

00:48:53.000 --> 00:49:09.000

John Merriman: You know, I love having kids running around here, you know, it’s… you know, we’re an adventure sport, but, you know, it’s fun. And it’s fun to have kids around, you know, we have a mascot now, and we have lots of kids’ activities and events that we do along with it.

00:49:09.000 --> 00:49:14.000

John Merriman: And, uh, really have kind of created that kids’ culture up here on the mountain.

00:49:14.000 --> 00:49:24.000

Stuart Winchester: So, you mentioned Bend, and Bend is great, and everyone loves Bend. There’s nowhere to stay on the mountain, which is unusual for a resort of your size.

00:49:23.000 --> 00:49:24.000

John Merriman: Right.

00:49:24.000 --> 00:49:26.000

Stuart Winchester: Uh, I’m curious.

00:49:26.000 --> 00:49:33.000

Stuart Winchester: how the Icon Pass may have drawn more destination folks. My sense of Bachelor…

00:49:30.000 --> 00:49:31.000

John Merriman: Yep.

00:49:33.000 --> 00:49:35.000

Stuart Winchester: Before, is that it was a very…

00:49:35.000 --> 00:49:46.000

Stuart Winchester: very popular regional destination, but not something that people would necessarily fly out to. And Bachelor joined the Icon Pass in 2020, and I appreciate that you were at Copper at that time.

00:49:45.000 --> 00:49:46.000

John Merriman: Yep.

00:49:46.000 --> 00:49:53.000

Stuart Winchester: But just from the institutional knowledge that you have, how has ICON, if it has, has it changed?

00:49:53.000 --> 00:49:59.000

Stuart Winchester: volume or profile of the… of the skiers? Are you getting more skiers, and are they coming from farther away?

00:49:58.000 --> 00:50:15.000

John Merriman: Yeah, absolutely. Um, it really is… has helped our destination business quite a bit. I mean, we’re still a locals mountain. You know, the… 75% of our skiers are still local. Um, you know, and… and obviously at other times during the year, it’s even more than that, but…

00:50:06.000 --> 00:50:07.000

Stuart Winchester: Yeah.

00:50:15.000 --> 00:50:32.000

John Merriman: But the Icon has been huge for us, because what we find is that the Icon guests love to travel, and they don’t mind spending for good experiences. So, with that light, you know, over the summer, we took over a lodge here in town.

00:50:21.000 --> 00:50:22.000

Stuart Winchester: Yes.

00:50:32.000 --> 00:50:48.000

John Merriman: So, uh, one of the… one of the closest lodges to the mountain, it used to be a Loge property, L-O-G-E, but, you know, we rebranded it the Trailhead Lodge, and we now operate it, and it’s… it’s 79 rooms, we’re gonna use 30 rooms of it for, um…

00:50:42.000 --> 00:50:43.000

Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Okay.

00:50:48.000 --> 00:51:05.000

John Merriman: for employee housing over the winter, um, but then the rest are gonna be for public, and we’re just really excited to be able to offer now ICON guests, like, full packaging. So, you know, or, you know, other destination guests as well, you know, we’ll have plenty of stay-and-scape.

00:51:05.000 --> 00:51:21.000

John Merriman: stay and ski packages, um, and those kind of things together, too. You know, and we still do quite a bit of partnership with hotels in town, uh, because, you know, there’s various levels, you know, anywhere from a one-star to a five-star, and we want to make sure that we’ve got all of our bases covered.

00:51:07.000 --> 00:51:08.000

Stuart Winchester: Yes.

00:51:21.000 --> 00:51:38.000

John Merriman: And since we’ll probably never have lodging up here on the mountain, you know, it’s great to have people be able to experience Bend, you know, at our cool Trailhead Lodge motel, which, you know, really is right on the bike trails, and it’s just a gorgeous location, you know, it’s close to the river.

00:51:38.000 --> 00:51:43.000

John Merriman: and, uh, give people that full Bend experience, and then… and then be able to come rip Bachelor.

00:51:44.000 --> 00:52:01.000

Stuart Winchester: So why is it that you don’t think you’ll ever have lodging …

Who

Chad Linebaugh, President of Sundance Resort, Utah

Date Recorded

Oct. 27, 2026

About Sundance

Owned by: Two investment groups: Broadreach Capital Partners & Cedar Capital Partners

Located in: Sundance, Utah

Year founded: 1969

Pass affiliations: Power Pass & Power Pass Select: 3 days

Base elevation: 6,096 feet

Summit elevation: 8,250 feet

Vertical drop: 2,154 feet

Skiable acres: 580

Average annual snowfall: 275 inches

Lift count: 10 (2 high-speed quads, 4 fixed-grip quads, 1 triple, 3 carpets)

Why I interviewed him

I last hosted Linebaugh on the podcast in 2022, as the resort was prepping for its upper-mountain Wildwood expansion:

The beginner- and family-focused terrain pod was a brilliant way to open upper-mountain vistas to a demographic often sequestered to the bottom of the hill. The expansion could have been a nice period to end a paragraph of change at Sundance, one which had included the mountain’s first high-speed lift, Outlaw Express.

But Sundance wasn’t finished. Last year, the resort announced another terrain expansion, this time on the backside high peak, with 165 new acres stapled to the south side of the resort:

The new lift - Sundance’s second high-speed quad, opens this winter and will load near the Wildwood base:

Sundance is in a rough spot: lower, smaller, and shorter than the megaplexes churning international visitors through the grand parlors of the Cottonwoods and Park City. But the bump is making a run, even without hitching itself to the Epic and Ikon super-collectors. It’s a damn fine story, and a damn fine place to ski.

Transcripts

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Stuart Winchester: My guest today is the president of Sundance Resort in Utah. Sundance is in the midst of a big expansion that includes 165 acres of new terrain and the ski area’s second high-speed quad.

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Stuart Winchester: The ski area offers a 2,150-foot vertical drop served by 10 lifts. He has worked at the ski area since 2006. He is a very good friend of the Storm, making his second appearance on the podcast. Chad Leinbaugh joins us. Chad, welcome back to the Storm.

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Chad Linebaugh: Mm-hmm.

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Stuart Winchester: Always good to catch up. How you doing today?

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Chad Linebaugh: Stuart, I am fantastic. It’s great to be back with you. Love connecting with you and all of your network that you’ve built. I mean, it’s incredible the reach that you have. You know, when I was on your podcast years ago, it was just incredible how many people commented. So thank you for having me.

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Chad Linebaugh: Having me back on.

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Stuart Winchester: So, I’m gonna jump right into this. You’re welcome anytime, Chad. I wanna jump right into this expansion, because nothing gets me riled up.

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Stuart Winchester: in a good way, like an expansion. I just had Brandi Hammond right up the road from me the other day to talk about her expansion, and Utah is just exploding. So just to give the listeners and viewers an orientation here.

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Chad Linebaugh: Yes.

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Stuart Winchester: if they’re watching on YouTube at Storm Ski Journal or on stormskiing.com. So, a few years ago.

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Stuart Winchester: Sundance was basically from here.

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Stuart Winchester: down, so it basically, it started at the Outlaw Express, and went up to, uh, the top of the peak on Red’s Lift here. So, when Chad and I were talking last, in 2022, they were adding this whole beginner expansion.

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Stuart Winchester: They had just added this high-speed quad, the high-speed quad to replace this big, complicated up and over lift that was awesome, but I would imagine a nightmare to maintain.

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Chad Linebaugh: Yes, and that was a 25-minute Lyft ride, right? That old fixed grip, now down to 7 minutes.

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Stuart Winchester: Y-yeah.

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Stuart Winchester: Right, and they had this… they put in this little stairway lift instead to reach you back up. Uh, and they were about to put in this beginner expansion, then…

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Stuart Winchester: Last year, they told me they were doing another expansion, and they opened part of that last year, and are opening the full thing this year. So that’s… I set the table. Chad, fill in the blanks for us. Just, first of all, just tell us about the expansion.

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Stuart Winchester: what we’re getting lift-wise, terrain-wise, and how you anticipate that it’s going to change Sundance?

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Chad Linebaugh: Yeah, that’s great.

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Chad Linebaugh: this will be our most transformational year in Sundance Resort history. And in your very kind intro, I was the general manager in 2006, but I actually started working here in 1994, so my time goes back even earlier. No, no, no, it’s fine, I’ve been here 32 years now. I only mention that because I’ve seen.

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Stuart Winchester: Oh.

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Stuart Winchester: Oh, my bad.

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Chad Linebaugh: such a transformation of this place. And even before I worked here, when I was a teenager kid in, you know, 1985, is when that Reds lift, at the time it was called Arrowhead lift, was put in. That was a big mountain expansion. But I guess I’m just saying, I can tell you, this is, from a historical perspective.

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Stuart Winchester: Right.

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Chad Linebaugh: our biggest transformational year. And as I was thinking about coming on this, uh, this podcast with you, Stuart, I thought there’s three things that we’ve really been trying to solve here at Sundance. One is, you know, high-speed chairlifts, right? Because most skiers and riders absolutely want high-speed chairlifts.

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Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

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Chad Linebaugh: And I am so happy to now make this statement, which is, once this new chairlift opens, Electric Horseman, you can ski 100% of our mountain from those two high-speed chairlifts. To your point, we still have other lifts. We’ve got, uh… we’ll have, you know, 5 other fixed-grip chairlifts, we’ve got the Magic Carpets.

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Stuart Winchester: Amazing.

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Chad Linebaugh: which gives the full experience, but you can ski the entire mountain, front and back mountain, from just simply those two high-speed chairlifts. So that’s… and we can dive in deeper on all this. The other thing is snowmaking. I mean, we all know.

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Chad Linebaugh: how important snowmaking is nowadays. And last year is a great example of that. We had our lowest natural snow year on record, and yet we still operated a really successful, complete winter.

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Chad Linebaugh: So we have completely revamped our snowmaking system over these past 5 years, and again, we can dive into some of those details. And then lastly, it would be the lodging experience here. You know, we have transformed the arrival, the lodging experience, by building the Inn at Sundance Resort, which opened last February.

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Chad Linebaugh: So this will be our first full winter with it, and it’s placed this beautiful, um, designed hotel in 63 rooms, right in the base of the village, literally steps away from Outlaw Express, you know, the high-speed we built a few years ago.

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Chad Linebaugh: And it’s transformed the experience, and of course, we can dive deeper in that, but to me, as kind of the intro, it’s those three things, right? It’s adding the high-speed chairlifts, it’s completely new snowmaking system, and then adding the Innit Sundance, and it’s really transformed the.

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Stuart Winchester: Yeah, let’s talk about each of those in turn here, Chad, and I want to start with what you said about high-speed lifts. So, again, I’m showing the trail map here. So, this reds lift…

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Stuart Winchester: is not old. It’s a 2016 quad, right? And when this was put in, you still had a quad on the front side as well, this long fixed-grip quad that had dated back, uh, quite a ways to… well, actually only to 1995, but still. So.

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Chad Linebaugh: That’s right. Yeah.

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Chad Linebaugh: Right.

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Chad Linebaugh: Mm-hmm.

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Chad Linebaugh: Yep.

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Stuart Winchester: so much has changed so fast in the ski industry, and I think in particular in Utah, starting…

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Stuart Winchester: in the lead-up to the last Olympics, where skier visits have just doubled, and the secret’s out on the airport access and the snow.

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Chad Linebaugh: Right.

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Stuart Winchester: So…

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Stuart Winchester: Just 10 years ago, Sundance said, okay.

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Stuart Winchester: Fixed grip lift is fine for Sundance. We’re just Sundance, who cares? But now, 2021, you put in Outlaw, and now 2026, put in Electric Horseman. That’s a lot of money. Uh, but, but what changed your mind? Is it, is it the competitive landscape? You know, Deer Valley just built a dozen high speed lifts in 3 years.

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Chad Linebaugh: Yeah.

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Stuart Winchester: Powder Mountain’s putting in lifts like crazy. Utah is just… it’s transforming so fast. So take us through the thought evolution here of saying, okay, enough with the fixed grips.

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Stuart Winchester: We’re in a place where we need to be competitive, and this is what we need to be competitive, or is there a different narr.

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Chad Linebaugh: Yeah, it’s a great question. And, you know, we’re very fortunate that we have such a strong base of local skiers who, you know, this is their mountain, then mixed with that destination ski market. It’s kind of an interesting story. I think if you ask some of our die-hard locals, they actually preferred the fixed-grip chairless, right?

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Stuart Winchester: Yeah.

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Chad Linebaugh: Because the mountain would get tracked out slower, right? It’s less people on the mountain in that amount of time.

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Chad Linebaugh: Now, as soon as they ride the high-speed chairlift, they’re like, okay, I get it, this is great. But we knew, we knew that to be competitive in drawing those destination skiers here into Utah, and specifically to Sundance Resort, they want those high-speed chairlifts, right? I mean, you get more skiing per hour.

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Chad Linebaugh: Um, it’s just a much better experience. So it really has transformed the ski experience. I think before, if somebody looked at Sundance, and they’re like, okay, it’s all fixed grip chairs, it’s beautiful, you know, nice mountain, but, you know, I want a high-speed chairlift, they may have just not considered this as an option for them.

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Chad Linebaugh: But now it’s transformed, and 100% of our acreage is now… will now be accessed by high-speed chair.

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Stuart Winchester: Let’s talk about that acreage here, Chad, and I’ll share the map again here. So, this…

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Stuart Winchester: is…

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Stuart Winchester: All the new terrain. So just it looks pretty intense. And so.

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Chad Linebaugh: Yum.

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Chad Linebaugh: Yeah.

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Stuart Winchester: you know.

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Stuart Winchester: Actually, was that part of the terrain before?

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Chad Linebaugh: So, yeah, about where you’re cursed, go up to, you see where Vertigo is right there, so coming down, um, down a little bit lower to Vertigo was open, um, but it was pretty limited in the way it was open, because that ridgeline at the top was very difficult for people to ski. You know, the ridgeline that we now call Storyteller.

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Stuart Winchester: Yep.

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Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Okay.

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Stuart Winchester: Okay.

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Stuart Winchester: Okay.

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Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

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Chad Linebaugh: That ridgeline has been completely graded and transformed, making the access into Vertigo, Wonderboy, Tango, the Sting, much more accessible. Very few people used to ski that, because it was very difficult to get over to the tops of those runs. So by.

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Stuart Winchester: Okay.

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Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

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Chad Linebaugh: by creating the Storyteller Ridgeline Run, which, by the way, is going to become one of the most iconic ski runs in Utah. I mean, wait until you see this thing, wait until you ski it. The views, the pitch, uh, everything about that run is just gonna be world-class.

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Chad Linebaugh: The new terrain this year is there to the bottom left, the Bull 1, the Bull 2, and the Bull 3.

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Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

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Chad Linebaugh: And that will be truly the steepest runs you can ski here at Sundance. And you’ll notice we’re not naming those yet. We want to go through a winter, have people ski those, and kind of let the experience and the feedback shape what we name those bowls. So bowls one, two, and three.

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Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

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Stuart Winchester: Right.

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Chad Linebaugh: That’s about, you know, with the Storyteller Ridgeline and those bowls, that’s about 68 acres that we’re opening this winter. Now, the other part of the story would be next winter.

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Chad Linebaugh: Um, and that’s a great graphic to pull up. That darker shaded gray is the additional 105 acres that would open next winter. The reason why is we need… our ski patrol needs a winter, this coming winter, to really kind of test this out. Now that we have, you know, a cat track and access coming out of there.

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Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

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Stuart Winchester: Hmmm.

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Chad Linebaugh: And there might be some days this year, based on conditions, that we can get some skiers in there to help test that. But we see this as kind of a testing year for that new bowl. That 100 acres will open next winter, you know, winter of 27-28. Um, but this winter, it’s that entire ridgeline, those 3 new bowls.

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Chad Linebaugh: And then, of course, just having better access to that that terrain that’s been there for a while.

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Stuart Winchester: In these maps that Chad’s describing, I want to include these in the article that accompanies this podcast on stormskiing.com for those of you who are listening rather than watching. So, you know, Chad, one thing that struck me about skiing at Sundance as compared to even skiing up in the Cottonwoods is how exposed it is up top.

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Stuart Winchester: And I would imagine that you have…

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Stuart Winchester: a great deal of avalanche mitigation considerations going into this. Now, a lot of the operators I talk to have spent a lot of money and a lot of time putting in, uh.

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Stuart Winchester: I forget what they’re called, avalanches, you know, the automatic little things that, you know, like Taos, for example, has them. And I think most of the big, like, Alpine Meadows, the big avalanche.

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Chad Linebaugh: Right, right.

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Chad Linebaugh: Yep.

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Stuart Winchester: It looks like you’re going to have some stuff you have to do.

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Stuart Winchester: really tend to. So how are you preparing?

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Stuart Winchester: What’s your level of avalanche mitigation right now, and how are you preparing to move over skiers right into this, what looks to be pretty exposed terrain? Maybe it just looks that way, and it’s not. I don’t know.

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Chad Linebaugh: No, you’re exactly right, Stuart. In fact, that’s why we need a winter to test that bigger bowl area. And to your point, you know, our ski patrol and our patrol director are very focused on that. They’re very experienced. People may misunderstand Sundance. They look at it as possibly a smaller mountain.

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Chad Linebaugh: Which acreage-wise it is, you know, we’re about just under 600 acres, um, but the amount of terrain we have and the amount of expert terrain that has avalanche paths, you know, near it, above it, to the side of it, that needs to be controlled is pretty significant.

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Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

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Chad Linebaugh: And our team does an incredible job. But to your point, that’s exactly why we will take this winter to really study out that new bowl area and really focus this winter’s operation on those three new bowls that we’re opening. But to your point, right now we’re still doing the traditional method. We do have an avalanche here at the top of Red’s lift that we use to kind of shoot over to that terrain.

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Chad Linebaugh: above, above Hill’s head wall. Um, but all the other routes are done by, you know, hand, hand work and hand control, so, um, uh, our ski patrol is, I mean, they’re, they’re here now, they’re training today. I mean, they’re in training, getting ready for this winter season, which is quite exciting, and.

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Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

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Chad Linebaugh: No doubt they’ll do a great job.

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Stuart Winchester: One of the big differences between the rapid pace of development in Utah versus Colorado is a lot of.

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Stuart Winchester: Utah ski areas are not on Forest Service land, and I believe you are not, correct me if I’m wrong.

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Chad Linebaugh: You are right, this is all private property that our company owns. I mean, all the way up to that far back ridge that you’re seeing that we will open next year, this is all… 100% of our ski acreage is on private property.

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Stuart Winchester: And is that, and I know I asked you this four years ago, but these things change, is that the extent to which, because I know you own thousands of acres, right? Is that the extent to which you anticipate growing the ski experience, or could we see more expansion in the future?

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Chad Linebaugh: Right.

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Chad Linebaugh: Yeah, it’s a really good question. I think there’s only one more area that could be expanded, and it’s that area kind of the top right of Hill’s Head Wall, if you look over to the top right, because our property does go up a bit higher there. We’ve looked at that. I would say anybody watching this, listening, don’t get your hopes up too much. I think that would be down the road quite a ways.

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Stuart Winchester: Okay.

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Stuart Winchester: Oh, okay.

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Chad Linebaugh: I think we’re… I think after this year… well, after next year, when we open that bowl, I think, as far as the Alpine Ski Mountain, we’re pretty much built out. There is potential to go up a little higher above Hill’s Head Wall, which we could look at down the road. Um, but to your point, you know, Sundance is roughly 3,000.

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Chad Linebaugh: and the ski mountain itself is 600 acres. So much of the land is our, you know, we have the Nordic Center, where we do alpine, or excuse me, cross-country skiing and snowshoeing, and then just, you know, thousands of acres that are put into conservation easement, which is part of what makes the Sundance ski experience so.

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Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

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Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

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Chad Linebaugh: is that you are just immersed in nature, and there’s not a lot of development around the ski resort, unlike what you see at some other resorts, which is great and fine that they’re developing a lot, but here at Sundance, you get kind of that pure, protected, you’re immersed in nature experience.

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Stuart Winchester: So to, to visualize this a little bit for the folks who are watching, I, I pulled up on Google Earth Sundance. So the, the new expansion will be out here. What Chad is talking about is over here. So.

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Chad Linebaugh: That’s right.

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Stuart Winchester: We’re not going to go all the way up Mount Timpanogos, I don’t think, but how far up could you go here? Is it this way?

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Chad Linebaugh: Right.

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Chad Linebaugh: Yeah, it’s about… come back a little bit, yeah, bring your cursor a little bit, go up… go up a little bit higher, right about there, maybe slightly down a little bit, is about where our property line goes. So there is… I mean, we have… we have run a study, we have a concept of a lift that could go up to that point, there’s…

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Stuart Winchester: Okay.

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Stuart Winchester: Okay.

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Stuart Winchester: Okay.

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Chad Linebaugh: There’s some complications with that, we’re not sure that it will ever happen, but it’s a potential, right? I wouldn’t rule it out, but I think that’d be years down the road, because we’ve, you know, we’ve improved so much, expanded so much these past 5 years, we’re excited to see the guest reaction to this. But there is potential down the road.

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Stuart Winchester: Alright, so let’s focus on what we are getting. So, I’m back to the regular trail map here. So, regular Sundance skiers will notice Electric Horseman.

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Stuart Winchester: loads in a really interesting spot. It’s a spot that I don’t think existed before you built Wildwood. So, you have this really clever Wildwood, this great pod, I skied this with my son, and it’s just an awesome, awesome pod for families. So, before, you had this kind of weird ski around to Red’s Lift, or.

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Chad Linebaugh: That’s right.

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Chad Linebaugh: Yes.

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Chad Linebaugh: Mm-hmm.

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Stuart Winchester: or to flathead lift, which is a super old triple chair. Just talk about the interaction of Wildwood and Electric Horseman with the front side, and kind of how you put this whole puzzle together to really.

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Stuart Winchester: Not just expand terrain, but use this as an opportunity to change how the mountain skis, even outside the expansion.

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Chad Linebaugh: Yeah, it’s fun because that Wildwood pod, like you’d mentioned, is all beginner runs, and it’s mid-mountain, which is kind of fun for a beginner to skier to know they’re going mid-mountain. It’s south-facing slopes, which a lot of people said, well, why would you put it south-facing? Well, we have extensive snowmaking there. We can build, you know.

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Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

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Chad Linebaugh: you get those south-facing slopes, it’s sunny mornings, sunny middays, um, guests love to have learning ski experiences over there. So it’s transformed our ski school experience, having that 50-acre pod that’s really dedicated to that beginner ski experience. And like you said, Stuart, it’s great for families just taking laps on that.

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Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

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Chad Linebaugh: Um, what’s fun now is the electric horseman train is kind of the exact opposite of that. Even though the bases of those two lifts kind of come together in a similar area, you know, one is the base of our beginner train, the other one is the base of now our most expert train.

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Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

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Chad Linebaugh: Uh, as we open up those new bowls. But, so, it’s kind of this good convergence that brings, you know, skiers and families together in the same area, but both accessing totally different type of terrain.

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Stuart Winchester: Okay.

00:19:06.000 --> 00:19:07.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

00:19:13.000 --> 00:19:20.000

Stuart Winchester: So, the, the lift in, in this, uh, Google Earth shows it a little better than the trail map, how this is an upper mountain.

00:19:20.000 --> 00:19:32.000

Stuart Winchester: beginner pod. Now, what I really like about upper mountain beginner pods is… is… when you’re in the base, it’s very chaotic, and you get up and you get that true alpine experience, especially with how beautiful Sundance is. So… so, essentially, Chad, they’ll…

00:19:32.000 --> 00:19:38.000

Stuart Winchester: Come out of here to go up to the new terrain. So what what does that mean then?

00:19:35.000 --> 00:19:36.000

Chad Linebaugh: Yep.

00:19:38.000 --> 00:19:45.000

Stuart Winchester: for Red’s Lift, for Stairway, and for Flathead Lift, because you had mentioned there may be some operational.

00:19:45.000 --> 00:20:02.000

Stuart Winchester: Changes, and personally, I always kind of like when they open a fast grip, a fast lift, and a slow lift that run similar lines, because I’ll take the slow, because there’s no line. You know, but that’s just me, I’m weird. So talk to us about these other three lifts, because Flathead’s probably ready for retirement, but Reds and Stairway are very new.

00:19:51.000 --> 00:19:53.000

Chad Linebaugh: Yum.

00:20:02.000 --> 00:20:24.000

Chad Linebaugh: Yeah, you’re exactly right. And so Red’s and Stairway will continue operating for the foreseeable future. They’re very important to our operation. As you said, there’s many skiers and riders who will choose to continue to lap Red’s lift. It’s such a great lift. But again, everything you ski on Red’s lift can be accessed from electric horsemen. So I think the majority of our guests will probably lap the high-speed chairlift.

00:20:14.000 --> 00:20:15.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

00:20:24.000 --> 00:20:42.000

Chad Linebaugh: But to your point, you know, on busier days, if there’s a line, which I don’t think there’ll be big lines, but you can go over and just ski there on reds, Stairway still provides that access to get back up to the top of the front mountain, so that’s an important kind of service lift. To your point, Flathead Lift, it’s an interesting story for those who don’t know.

00:20:42.000 --> 00:20:58.000

Chad Linebaugh: You know, like Stuart said, you know, that was put in in 1975. It was, you know, state-of-the-art triple chair at the time. People are very fond of that lift. It’s been here, you know, since 75, and people are like, don’t get rid of flathead lift! I mean, at some point, we will retire that. I think it’ll still be a couple.

00:20:50.000 --> 00:20:52.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

00:20:58.000 --> 00:21:06.000

Chad Linebaugh: But that’s the one lift that I think can go away that is certainly redundant in everything that we’ve done here. But as far as reds and stairways, those will continue to operate.

00:21:02.000 --> 00:21:03.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

00:21:06.000 --> 00:21:23.000

Stuart Winchester: Yeah, and you can, again, on the Google Earth, you can see a little bit how… it’s just a weird-shaped mountain. And the mountains in Utah are all a little bit weird. You know, they’re not super conical or ridge-like, like the Colorado mountains. They kind of go up and down. They have little tucked-in corners. So you can see how Flathead rises up and gives really good access to this.

00:21:17.000 --> 00:21:19.000

Chad Linebaugh: Yep.

00:21:23.000 --> 00:21:34.000

Stuart Winchester: that people miss otherwise, and then the stairway takes you back out. So, do you anticipate reds maybe as, like, a volume lift that you run on busier days, but stairway would always be running?

00:21:32.000 --> 00:21:33.000

Chad Linebaugh: Yep.

00:21:34.000 --> 00:21:52.000

Chad Linebaugh: Yeah, I think that’s exactly right. I mean, I can see that Stairway is just running on weekends or high-demand periods. I think Reds will run most day. Again, we’ll test it this winter and see how it feels. Um, you know, and then keep in mind, our summer operation, which we have a robust summer operation with scenic lift rides, hiking, etc.

00:21:45.000 --> 00:21:46.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

00:21:51.000 --> 00:21:52.000

Stuart Winchester: Yeah, thank you.

00:21:52.000 --> 00:22:07.000

Chad Linebaugh: That’s where Red’s lift and stairway really come into play to kind of shuttle, you know, get those guests from Outlaw Express all the way up to Bear Claw’s cabin. That’s how we service that as a food and beverage area. We also have our zip line that runs based off of those lifts. So those lifts are very important to us from.

00:22:07.000 --> 00:22:14.000

Stuart Winchester: You know, Chad, I have to admit, I failed when I was at Sundance. I did not visit Bear Claw Cabin.

00:22:14.000 --> 00:22:16.000

Chad Linebaugh: Oh, wow.

00:22:14.000 --> 00:22:17.000

Stuart Winchester: And, uh, so, so…

00:22:16.000 --> 00:22:33.000

Chad Linebaugh: Okay, you’re coming back this winter, so that’s gonna be number one on the list. We’re getting you to Bear… I mean, here’s what your listeners need to know about Bearclaw’s Cabin. First of all, you’re at, you know, you’re at the top of the mountain, you’re looking over, you can see the top of the Snowbird Tram from there, you can look over and see.

00:22:17.000 --> 00:22:20.000

Stuart Winchester: Yeah, I I yeah.

00:22:20.000 --> 00:22:22.000

Stuart Winchester: Okay.

00:22:23.000 --> 00:22:25.000

Stuart Winchester: Yeah.

00:22:29.000 --> 00:22:30.000

Stuart Winchester: Oh, wow.

00:22:33.000 --> 00:22:51.000

Chad Linebaugh: I mean, truly some of the most panoramic views you will see anywhere. The other thing that’s interesting about Bear Claw’s cabin is we have really become famous for nachos. I know it sounds funny, but people are just fanatical about the nachos that you can get there. Of course, you can get, you know, a beer, a glass of wine.

00:22:42.000 --> 00:22:43.000

Stuart Winchester: Okay.

00:22:51.000 --> 00:23:08.000

Chad Linebaugh: uh, we’ve got great food up there, but it’s really the, uh, it’s just the views and the ambience up there that make that really special. Um, you know, I’ll say this too, you know, Robert Redford, who’s of course our founder of all things Sundance, he passed away last year, but Bearclaw was one of his favorite places. I mean, it was so often.

00:23:06.000 --> 00:23:08.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

00:23:08.000 --> 00:23:18.000

Chad Linebaugh: you know, up until a few years ago when he was still skiing, he would just be up there. It’s just, anybody who spends much time at Sundance, it’s where you want to be. It’s just, it’s just the vibe of Sundance.

00:23:18.000 --> 00:23:34.000

Stuart Winchester: So, so this, uh, so I’m looking at Bearclaw now on this Google Map. So, from, from the trail map, Chad, it looks like Electric Horseman is gonna take me, when I come there to get some nachos, it’s gonna drop right about where Red’s is, right, but closer to Bearclaw, so I have no excuse?

00:23:30.000 --> 00:23:31.000

Chad Linebaugh: Yum.

00:23:34.000 --> 00:23:40.000

Chad Linebaugh: You have no excuse. It drops you right at Bearclaw, you’re exactly right. So, uh, you’ll be stopping in there.

00:23:39.000 --> 00:23:50.000

Stuart Winchester: Alright. I will be sure to get the nachos, and I’m scheduled to be there in February. Okay, let’s jump back over the mountain here, and let’s go back down, because…

00:23:44.000 --> 00:23:45.000

Chad Linebaugh: For sure.

00:23:50.000 --> 00:23:57.000

Stuart Winchester: I want to talk about this new hotel that you snuck in, because as you can see.

00:23:55.000 --> 00:23:56.000

Chad Linebaugh: Yum.

00:23:57.000 --> 00:24:01.000

Stuart Winchester: It’s pretty crowded down there, you’re in this little box canyon.

00:24:00.000 --> 00:24:02.000

Chad Linebaugh: Mm-hmm.

00:24:01.000 --> 00:24:05.000

Stuart Winchester: And here’s your high-speed lift. Is this the new hotel?

00:24:04.000 --> 00:24:20.000

Chad Linebaugh: That is the new hotel, and it’s interesting because this rendering almost makes it look bigger than it actually is. Keep in mind, it’s 3 stories. Um, it was, you know, one of Robert Redford’s development principles was build nothing taller than the tallest trees.

00:24:07.000 --> 00:24:08.000

Stuart Winchester: Wow.

00:24:12.000 --> 00:24:13.000

Stuart Winchester: Okay.

00:24:13.000 --> 00:24:15.000

Stuart Winchester: Yeah.

00:24:18.000 --> 00:24:19.000

Stuart Winchester: Yeah.

00:24:20.000 --> 00:24:22.000

Stuart Winchester: Oh, cool.

00:24:20.000 --> 00:24:32.000

Chad Linebaugh: And when you look at it, you can see we are very intentional in the height of that building, that it’s below the tree line. Because when guests pull up and arrive at Sundance, we want them to see the mountain, we want them to see the trees.

00:24:24.000 --> 00:24:26.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

00:24:32.000 --> 00:24:48.000

Chad Linebaugh: The other thing that’s interesting about this building, I’ll never forget, we sat with our ownership group, an architect, we sat in a room back in March of 2021, and we were trying to figure out if we should put the building on the ski slope side or the parking lot side, as it relates to that river that runs through it, right?

00:24:45.000 --> 00:24:47.000

Stuart Winchester: Okay.

00:24:48.000 --> 00:24:49.000

Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.

00:24:48.000 --> 00:25:06.000

Chad Linebaugh: And then we had this idea, we thought, well, what if we build the hotel as two buildings, connect it with the bridge, and literally have the river run through it? Which, for listeners who don’t know, Robert Redford, one of his greatest films, in my opinion, is a film called A River Runs Through It, starring Brad Pitt. It’s about fly fishing, right? So how appropriate.

00:24:53.000 --> 00:24:55.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmm.

00:25:02.000 --> 00:25:03.000

Stuart Winchester: Amazing.

00:25:06.000 --> 00:25:23.000

Chad Linebaugh: that runs right through our hotel. What this image doesn’t show, because this image was during construction, but there’s this really charming covered bridge that connects those two buildings. And it was intentionally kind of oriented that when you walk across that bridge as your arrival experience, you’re looking right up at the nearly 12,000 foot mountain.

00:25:13.000 --> 00:25:14.000

Stuart Winchester: Hmm. Okay.

00:25:23.000 --> 00:25:34.000

Chad Linebaugh: Pinogos there in the backdrop. So it’s, uh… I mean, I’ve literally seen people’s mouths just open up, and they just have this exclamation of, like, wow, this is… it’s just such a beautiful, beautiful setting.

00:25:34.000 --> 00:25:49.000

Chad Linebaugh: The other thing that this hotel has done for us is really transformed the destination guest arrival experience, where you check in, we’ve got a gatehouse where they’ll call ahead, bell staff come out, get your skis, your snowboards if you brought your own. We put those in a storage area, it has a proper.

00:25:39.000 --> 00:25:41.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

00:25:49.000 --> 00:26:05.000

Chad Linebaugh: you know, ski… we call it the boot room, but the lower level of that building on the ski slope side is a boot room and locker room for all of our guests, where they can get suited up for the day, get their boots on. They walk out on the path, and we’ve got their skis and boards right there on the snow for them. And you can see…

00:25:52.000 --> 00:25:53.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

00:26:05.000 --> 00:26:17.000

Chad Linebaugh: that it is truly the closest hotel to lift access in the state of Utah. It makes it such a convenient experience going from your guest room right out there to the slopes.

00:26:16.000 --> 00:26:34.000

Stuart Winchester: That is amazing. And that’s not just a starter lift, right? Because when you told me that, I threw back, oh, what about Chickadee at Snowbird? But really, you just ski down to the tram, and that doesn’t take you the whole way. So you have this high-speed lift that goes all the way to the first summit.

00:26:25.000 --> 00:26:27.000

Chad Linebaugh: Right.

00:26:27.000 --> 00:26:29.000

Chad Linebaugh: That’s right.

00:26:33.000 --> 00:26:35.000

Chad Linebaugh: Down.

00:26:34.000 --> 00:26:48.000

Stuart Winchester: Right there. People… people tell me I’m making them dizzy with my moving around, but I’m trying to get better, because I think it shows such a… such a cool perspective. So, alright, Chad, so I… I wanna… the hotel is… is awesome.

00:26:35.000 --> 00:26:36.000

Chad Linebaugh: That’s right.

00:26:38.000 --> 00:26:40.000

Chad Linebaugh: No, it’s great.

00:26:48.000 --> 00:26:51.000

Stuart Winchester: And I’d imagine that’s made a difference in…

00:26:51.000 --> 00:27:06.000

Stuart Winchester: As people search for alternatives to some of the busier places in Utah, uh, maybe it’s helped them consider Sundance. I, I want to get an update on your take on multi-mountain passes. So you’ve sat out Epic Icon Indy.

00:27:06.000 --> 00:27:09.000

Stuart Winchester: Uh, Mountain Collective, you are…

00:27:09.000 --> 00:27:21.000

Stuart Winchester: nominally on the power pass as a reciprocal partner, and that’s cool. I really like Mountain Capital Partners and everything they’re doing. They’re also expanding aggressively and doing a great job, I think.

00:27:13.000 --> 00:27:14.000

Chad Linebaugh: Right.

00:27:21.000 --> 00:27:33.000

Stuart Winchester: But, give us your current thinking on whether you think that Sundance would ever be a fit for a National Multi-Mountain Pass, or if you think you’re better off going it alone.

00:27:33.000 --> 00:27:52.000

Chad Linebaugh: Yeah, it’s a great question. You know, our ownership team and I, we discussed this 4 or 5 years ago, and I will just say, our decision we made then has been confirmed now. We are very comfortable with our decision to not join one of those multi-pass products. Um, in fact, as you’d mentioned with the Mountain Collective Pass, that all started with Brian Head Resort in southern Utah.

00:27:40.000 --> 00:27:41.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

00:27:51.000 --> 00:27:52.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

00:27:52.000 --> 00:28:07.000

Chad Linebaugh: And it was actually before they even purchased Brian Head. But that’s where that whole relationship started, and it has continued, and that’s a nice benefit for them and for us. But Sundance, we’re unique in so many ways, and we have just found that being independent totally works.

00:28:07.000 --> 00:28:15.000

Chad Linebaugh: Now, with that in mind, we have a really cool product called the S-Card. So, if you’re a destination skier from New York or Connecticut, wherever you’re coming from.

00:28:10.000 --> 00:28:12.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

00:28:15.000 --> 00:28:32.000

Chad Linebaugh: Um, you know, and you’re not gonna buy a season pass from us, you can buy an S-card. The first time purchase is $119, that gives you one day of skiing, and then every time you come back after that, and you come to the resort, it would just be $109 for a day of skiing. And it’s direct to access, so it looks and feels.

00:28:24.000 --> 00:28:25.000

Stuart Winchester: Okay.

00:28:29.000 --> 00:28:31.000

Stuart Winchester: Oh, great.

00:28:32.000 --> 00:28:49.000

Chad Linebaugh: just like a season pass, but your credit card is attached to that, so you avoid purchasing a pass, and it’s, you know, a normal day rate this year is $169, so it’s giving you that discounted rate of $109 each time you come back and ski. So we have some unique programs like that that really work well. Also, this winter, here’s a cool thing.

00:28:49.000 --> 00:28:53.000

Chad Linebaugh: If any guest books a room for 3 nights in the inn.

00:28:53.000 --> 00:29:04.000

Chad Linebaugh: they ski all 3 days for free. 2 day passes per day, uh, when you stay 3 or more nights. So, we have all kinds of incentives to bring people down here and experience Sundance.

00:28:55.000 --> 00:28:56.000

Stuart Winchester: Hold on.

00:29:02.000 --> 00:29:04.000

Stuart Winchester: You’ll…

00:29:04.000 --> 00:29:14.000

Stuart Winchester: the old ski and stay, so you’ll love this, Chad. So, uh, people obviously come to me a lot for ski recommendations, especially people who don’t ski a lot, and I had an acquaintance guy I’d worked with.

00:29:14.000 --> 00:29:23.000

Stuart Winchester: he was searching around, he saw my newsletter, and he said, oh, you know, you know about skiing, it looks like you do. You know, me and my girlfriend are going to Park City.

00:29:23.000 --> 00:29:34.000

Stuart Winchester: you know, just to go, and we wanted to try skiing, but it’s, like, insanely expensive, you know, it’s 300 and whatever dollars a day. I said, uh, go to Sundance.

00:29:29.000 --> 00:29:30.000

Chad Linebaugh: No.

00:29:34.000 --> 00:29:37.000

Chad Linebaugh: Yeah, right, yeah.

00:29:34.000 --> 00:29:43.000

Stuart Winchester: If you’re gonna have a car, because it’s close, uh, it’s a lot more approachable, you can actually see the whole thing in a day.

00:29:38.000 --> 00:29:39.000

Chad Linebaugh: Yes.

00:29:43.000 --> 00:29:45.000

Stuart Winchester: Uh, and…

00:29:45.000 --> 00:29:46.000

Chad Linebaugh: Come on.

00:29:45.000 --> 00:29:56.000

Stuart Winchester: And it’s not gonna… you know, it’s still… still skiing, you know, it’s still not free, but it’s not like, uh… what do you think of Brian Head in Nordic Mountain doing $9 lift tickets, Chad?

00:29:56.000 --> 00:30:13.000

Chad Linebaugh: Unbelievable, yeah. I’m like, wow. Talk about jumping back to the 1970s, right? But you know, Stuart, I really like what you’re saying. In fact, I think it’s a great point that we love what’s going on in Park City, Deer Valley, Deer Valley East. It’s bringing so much attention to Utah. I mean, Deer V.

00:30:01.000 --> 00:30:03.000

Stuart Winchester: Yeah, but you…

00:30:07.000 --> 00:30:09.000

Stuart Winchester: Yeah.

00:30:13.000 --> 00:30:29.000

Chad Linebaugh: here. And there’s thousands of hotel rooms being developed over there. And we are seeing more and more that those guests coming to Deer Valley, Park City, if they’re up there, you know, staying for three or four nights, they’re going to want to come down here for one of those days to ski. And that’s where this program really works well. To your point, to get $109.

00:30:13.000 --> 00:30:15.000

Stuart Winchester: Yeah, so.

00:30:25.000 --> 00:30:26.000

Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.

00:30:29.000 --> 00:30:34.000

Chad Linebaugh: day lift ticket here, you know, it’s, it’s a pretty, it’s a pretty reasonable approach.

00:30:34.000 --> 00:30:36.000

Stuart Winchester: All right, Chad, I wanna…

00:30:37.000 --> 00:30:44.000

Stuart Winchester: I want you to leave us with this. You mentioned the passing of Mr. Redford. I don’t know if you had a personal relationship with him.

00:30:44.000 --> 00:30:54.000

Stuart Winchester: But I just wanted to give you the opportunity to talk about his legacy, what he may have meant to you personally, what he meant to the resort, and how you might be honoring his legacy.

00:30:53.000 --> 00:31:08.000

Chad Linebaugh: Well, thank you, and to answer your question, yes, I had a very deep personal relationship with him. I mean, next to my own father, he was the most influential figure in my life. He very much was a fatherly figure for me, and so when he passed away on September 16th of 2025, it was.

00:31:01.000 --> 00:31:02.000

Stuart Winchester: Umm.

00:31:08.000 --> 00:31:23.000

Chad Linebaugh: very emotional for all of us, anybody who spends any time here at Sundance. I mean, his presence was always so felt here. Um, the thing I will say is many of us noticed that soon after his passing, in many ways, we felt his presence and his spirit even more.

00:31:23.000 --> 00:31:25.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

00:31:23.000 --> 00:31:41.000

Chad Linebaugh: Because someone like him, who had such an impact on not only this place, but really the entire world, his legacy lives on in so many ways. And I really think that what… everything we’re doing here today are all things he wanted to do. You know, even building the hotel, he was always interested in having.

00:31:41.000 --> 00:31:58.000

Chad Linebaugh: a small hotel, you know, nothing big, but the right-sized hotel right here in the village. He loves skiing! I mean, skiing was his passion, and I have no doubt he would be so thrilled with the way that we have continued to expand the mountain in the right way, but at the same time honoring all the conservation easements.

00:31:42.000 --> 00:31:44.000

Stuart Winchester: Yeah.

00:31:55.000 --> 00:31:56.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

00:31:58.000 --> 00:32:14.000

Chad Linebaugh: So, you know, we take it very serious that we are honoring his legacy, but we’re also finding ways to evolve the business in all the right ways, and I think we’re finding the right balance for that. But I will say, we miss him very much, but this is his place, and it always will be.

00:32:14.000 --> 00:32:17.000

Stuart Winchester: Your base village is, uh…

00:32:17.000 --> 00:32:27.000

Stuart Winchester: Very eclectic. There’s a lot of artsy stuff in little shops and restaurants and some of those yurts that folks may have seen earlier.

00:32:21.000 --> 00:32:22.000

Chad Linebaugh: Yeah.

00:32:27.000 --> 00:32:35.000

Stuart Winchester: Is there a place, a memorial, or a place you can learn about Sundance’s history and Mr. Redford?

00:32:35.000 --> 00:32:52.000

Chad Linebaugh: You know, I like that question, and because the answer is this, it’s… and this is so… I’ve never thought about it this way, but Redford liked… you have to… he liked you having to discover things, right? Like, not just putting it right in front of somebody, but having people have to kind of make a journey to discover that, and I think that’s the answer to your question.

00:32:49.000 --> 00:32:50.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

00:32:52.000 --> 00:33:07.000

Chad Linebaugh: There’s not one spot here at Sundance that is like the memorial to Robert Redford. But as you walk around the property, there’s all kinds of things, and you have to kind of experience it yourself. And the new inn, the new hotel, is also an example of that. I mean, we’ve got a 1971.

00:32:56.000 --> 00:32:57.000

Stuart Winchester: Yes.

00:33:07.000 --> 00:33:27.000

Chad Linebaugh: Honda Scrambler motorcycle featured as, like, an art piece in there, because Robert Redford loved motorcycles, and that’s how he’d get around the property. We’ve got some cool artifacts that tie to his film career, to his conservation efforts. We commissioned a beautiful art piece of a Rocky Mountain bighorn sheep that hangs over the fireplace.

00:33:27.000 --> 00:33:33.000

Chad Linebaugh: in the hotel, because he reintroduced the Rocky Mountain bighorn sheep to this area many years ago. So…

00:33:31.000 --> 00:33:33.000

Stuart Winchester: Wow.

00:33:33.000 --> 00:33:50.000

Chad Linebaugh: I will say this to all your listeners, if they come here and they want me to give them the tour that shows all those things, I could do that, right? I mean, they can discover it on their own, but there’s definitely kind of a path to exploring this property and seeing all the nods and all the kind of highlights of Robert Redford in so many different ways.

00:33:41.000 --> 00:33:43.000

Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Okay.

00:33:50.000 --> 00:34:04.000

Stuart Winchester: That’s awesome, Chad, and I’m sorry for the loss, but a great man with a great legacy, and he obviously meant a lot to that property and to everyone who had anything to do with building it. So, we made a deal, and I’ll let the listeners in.

00:34:04.000 --> 00:34:19.000

Stuart Winchester: we said, we’re gonna come on, you’re gonna come on the show, talk about the expansion, then I’m gonna go ski it, and in the spring, you’re gonna come back on, and we’re gonna talk about how it worked out. So, if you… if… if you’ve not had your fill of Chad Leinbaugh, you will get more. So, Chad.

00:34:07.000 --> 00:34:08.000

Chad Linebaugh: Yep.

00:34:09.000 --> 00:34:10.000

Chad Linebaugh: Yes.

00:34:13.000 --> 00:34:15.000

Chad Linebaugh: Love it.

00:34:19.000 --> 00:34:29.000

Stuart Winchester: Always, always, always good talking to you, man. I really appreciate the relationship and the time, and really what you’re doing with Sundance. I think it’s a really good model of…

00:34:21.000 --> 00:34:22.000

Chad Linebaugh: Thank you.

00:34:29.000 --> 00:34:31.000

Stuart Winchester: How an independent?

00:34:31.000 --> 00:34:38.000

Stuart Winchester: can thrive when it’s surrounded by giants if it tells its story right. And I think you’re doing a really good job with that.

00:34:38.000 --> 00:34:49.000

Chad Linebaugh: Well, thank you, Stuart, and we appreciate all you do, and we love the relationship with you as well, and cannot wait to have you out here. We’re gonna have some nachos together up at Bear Claw’s cabin.

00:34:46.000 --> 00:34:50.000

Stuart Winchester: I’m counting on it. All right, Chad, take care.

Get full access to The Storm Skiing Journal and Podcast at https://www.stormskiing.com/subscribe

The Storm Skiing Journal and Podcast wants Jurassic Park to happen in real life.

Who

Andy Bigford – former Editor-In-Chief of Ski magazine, former General Manager of Warren Miller Entertainment, Adjunct Professor at University of Colorado Journalism School, editor or author of several books, including Warren Miller’s autobiography, Freedom Found, and Ski Inc. and Ski Inc. 2020 with the late Chris Diamond.

Date Recorded

Oct. 27, 2026

About Eldora

Owned by: Powdr, which also owns

Located in: Nederland, Colorado

Year founded: 1962

Pass affiliations: Ikon Pass and Ikon Base Pass: unlimited access

Base elevation: 9,265 feet (bottom of Corona quad)

Summit elevation: 10,599 feet (top of Corona quad)

Vertical drop: 1,335 feet

Skiable acres: 680

Average annual snowfall: 300 inches

Lift count: 10 (1 six-pack, 2 fixed-grip quads, 1 triple, 3 doubles, 1 poma, 1 ropetow, 1 carpet)

Why I interviewed him

Two years ago, Park City-based Powdr shocked everyone by selling Killington, the busiest ski area in eastern North America, to a group of independent investors:

But the ski conglomerate, which at its height owned 11 ski areas, wasn’t finished: Powdr announced that it also intended to sell off Eldora, Colorado; Silver Star, British Columbia; and Mount Bachelor, Oregon:

Eight months later, Powdr pulled Bachelor off the market, but kept the other two resorts at the yardsale. On July 8 of last year, the company announced that the small town of Nederland, Colorado had entered an agreement to purchase Eldora:

A few months later, Powdr sold Silver Star to cross-town rival Pacific Group Resorts:

But updates on Eldora were few and spare. Earlier this month, ski journalist and longtime Eldora local Andy Bigford blasted the sales process in a SAMopinion piece, saying it was time for Powdr to pull the offer from Nederland:

It sounded good for a minute, a tiny town banding together to buy the local ski resort, thereby securing control of its future in this righteous fight against corporate skiing. The idea was extremely popular; hundreds of headlines across the country essentially declared it a done deal, with the town then leveraging the cash flow to solve its many challenges.

As it turns out, there was never a realistic plan nor the resources and expertise for Nederland to purchase Eldora Mountain Resort for the hefty price tag of $120 million.

The owner, Powdr, offered the town every opportunity in what has devolved into an almost two-year process. Now Powdr needs to end this drama, return to operating a ski area and focus on its core stakeholders: The tens of thousands of visitors who support this use of public land, and the resort’s 750 employees who depend on it.

So far, neither Powdr nor Nederland have budged, but escalating costs and a sense that no one’s at the steering wheel may force a course correction sooner than later. What sort of correction? Andy and I discuss.

Additional resources

Eldora’s 2011 U.S. Forest Service masterplan map:

Powdr ownership timeline:

Transcripts

There are two transcripts. Both are generated by robots. Both are helpful and defective in their own unique ways. I do not proofread either of them.

Transcript 1: Click the “transcript” button at the top of this article. You can only see this transcript on a computer. Because I don’t know why exactly but everything is getting better and dumber all at once it seems. Anyway, this is the transcript that the robots create when I upload the podcast to the internet. The cool thing about it is that you can click on any block of text and the audio will teleport there instantly. The uncool thing about this transcript is that it does not indicate who is talking at any given moment.

Transcript 2: You can read this below. This is the transcript that Zoom creates as we record the podcast. The cool thing about this transcript is that it indicates who is talking at any given moment. The uncool thing about this transcript is that the timestamps do not match the audio. Also, you cannot click on this text to move to the associated point in the audio.

Zoom

Stuart Winchester: My guest today has spent nearly 50 years in ski-related publishing. He has worked at newspapers in Breckenridge and Aspen, and is a former editor-in-chief and publisher of Ski Magazine, and former general manager of Warren Miller Entertainment.

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Stuart Winchester: He served as an adjunct professor at the University of Colorado Journalism School and has written or edited at least four books, including Warren Miller’s autobiography, Freedom Found, and Ski Inc. and Ski Inc. 2020 with the late Chris Diamond.

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Stuart Winchester: He is a fellow Michigander, living as a transplant, but unlike me, he is actually living up in the mountains of Colorado. Andy Bigford is my guest. Andy, welcome to the storm. I am so fired up to finally get you on the show. We’ve been talking for years. How you doing today, Andy?

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ABigford: Thanks.

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ABigford: I’m doing well, Stuart, and sorry about your wolverines, but things will get better.

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Stuart Winchester: Yeah, man, it’s alright. Highs and lows, we’re still less than 3 years from the natty, so I’ll take the long perspective on it. So, Andy, the…

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Stuart Winchester: there’s a million things we could talk about. You’ve been in this industry forever, and… and I could probably have you on the show every week and talk about something different, but the particular reason I asked you on this week was you wrote this great column for Sam Magazine.

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Stuart Winchester: saying that, essentially, Powder, the Park City-based company that has owned Eldora since 2016, and had been in the process of selling Eldora to the town of Netherland, a small town near Boulder, uh, in… near…

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Stuart Winchester: Eldora, obviously in Colorado. And, and to give the listeners and, and readers a little context, Eldora is small by Colorado standards, 1400 vertical feet, 460 acres, seven chairlifts, just one high speed. That’s a six pack.

00:10:13.000 --> 00:10:19.000

Stuart Winchester: Uh, so it’s a scary area in need of some capex, like they all are, I guess. But…

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Stuart Winchester: This process — I wrote this column last July when Netherland announced, hey, we’re going to buy this, or Powder announced that Netherland was going to buy it. This was after the successful sale.

00:10:30.000 --> 00:10:45.000

Stuart Winchester: of Tillington and Pico, the busiest ski areas combined in the East, to a independent group. Uh, and it was after Powder said, no, we’re not gonna sell Bachelor after all. Uh, and it was right before they successfully sold Silver Star to Pacific Group Resorts. So.

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Stuart Winchester: There’s been a lot of transactions, and Powder’s done this forever.

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Stuart Winchester: but this one is proving to be particularly problematic. So, lay this out for us, Andy. What in the world is going on at Netherland in its attempts to purchase Eldora from powder?

00:11:01.000 --> 00:11:17.000

ABigford: It is problematic, and you set the table pretty well for Powder and John Cumming. And so it is a bit of a local obsession for me, even though I look at national and international trends.

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ABigford: This is my home ski area. It’s been 30 years that I’ve been skiing there, and it skis a lot better than 1,400 feet of vertical. And I did go through 20 years. We had a Hall of Fame ownership. It was a pretty good owners.

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ABigford: They didn’t have a ton of money, just like the ski business, but they made it work. We could park right next to the lift ski powder, and then John Cumming and powder came along, and they started to invest money in it, and.

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Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

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Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

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ABigford: They put in probably 40 million excess in capital, and they put in the 1st detachable and a new parking lot. Expanded parking lot was a huge, a new lodge, and.

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ABigford: Little Eldora rose up to become something of an icon poster child. And they’re unlimited on that pass. And their skier visits almost doubled in that time. And there were trade-offs. I mean, there was more traffic. Saturdays became very difficult.

00:12:23.000 --> 00:12:38.000

ABigford: but it became much, much better ski area, and it was a signal that I saw up close that you know this can actually work. And here’s an example right next door.

00:12:38.000 --> 00:12:53.000

ABigford: Powder has decided to divest some ski areas. They used to be, you know, in the big in the top 4. They’re deciding to do other important things that John Cumming has on his plate. So they wanted to sell Eldora.

00:12:53.000 --> 00:13:09.000

ABigford: They had a lot of operators knocking on the door. And as it turned out, after selling Killington to the local billionaires, Powder and John Cumming could sell to a municipality. Not only that, but at a high price.

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ABigford: And this was a great win for independent skiing. And from the get-go, there was a gulf between anybody who ran a ski area and had a sense of what was going on in Eldora, even that ran a business, said.

00:13:25.000 --> 00:13:41.000

ABigford: there’s no way this town can run a ski area that dwarfs in size. You know the onion headline. You know it was David bites Goliath, you know. It would be more like Eldora would buy Nederland, but.

00:13:41.000 --> 00:13:57.000

ABigford: As it turns out, they went into a long process, and the town sold it to its residents as not taxpayer money, but we will pay for municipal revenue bonds.

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ABigford: through resort revenues. And Eldora was spitting off cash at that time. And so it looked, you know, like it was somewhat feasible. And so anybody that looked at it from the outside said, there’s no possible way.

00:14:14.000 --> 00:14:30.000

ABigford: And yet locals were behind it. A lot of locals thought, you know, hey? Something different than Vail resorts. And this is an important takeaway is that you know the the reaction to just.

00:14:30.000 --> 00:14:45.000

ABigford: being able to control it ourselves versus having an outside company come in. It’s very strong, and there was no question that that existed, and, as it turns out, the town.

00:14:45.000 --> 00:15:00.000

ABigford: does not have the experience, the resources, the revenue to do any of this. They went into a lengthy process with powder. They tried to unsuccessfully sell the revenue bonds. They couldn’t do it.

00:15:00.000 --> 00:15:19.000

ABigford: They don’t have any plans for the future that they can share, and their silence has been part of the issue. And so it’s come to a logger’s head where their purchase agreement is no longer in effect with powder.

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ABigford: and they had a town council meeting just last Tuesday, and residents were very angry, very angry, and they were smart people and former selectmen and former mayors, and there was very much anger expressed at this meeting, I think.

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ABigford: the town pretty much gave them the Heisman, and and critically, they have spent 2.5 million that they don’t have in due diligence. So now what was going to be paid for by.

00:15:54.000 --> 00:16:10.000

ABigford: resort revenue is now the town’s liability, and people are very angry about that. It shouldn’t surprise you. That’s what it costs to do due diligence. And so that’s the you know. That’s the bottom line. But.

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ABigford: The town doesn’t have the money to pay this, and they’re positioning it as their leaders are saying that that we’re going to flush this money down the toilet if we don’t move forward.

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ABigford: It’s created a lot of angst, and it’s made an opening, for I think, for powder where they can say, Hey, look! We tried. We tried to do this right thing. And now we got to go back to running a ski area. And the reason you do that.

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ABigford: is because of your customers, and you clear away the black cloud, and you do it for your staff. And so Eldora has never been Nederland ski area. It’s always been Boulder counties, and with the icon pass it became because.

00:17:00.000 --> 00:17:16.000

ABigford: you have a spreadsheet that addresses this. Probably there are probably 250,000 icon pass holders from Denver to Fort Collins, which is the range for for Eldora. It might be more, and.

00:17:16.000 --> 00:17:25.000

ABigford: They can draw them in. So Eldora’s lift ticket revenue, 75% of it comes from Icon.

00:17:25.000 --> 00:17:40.000

ABigford: And of that group, of that group, probably a quarter or a third come from Denver, largely, and North Denver or Fort Collins and south of that.

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ABigford: What’s interesting is that there isn’t really a big issue at stake here. You would think maybe the town would come out and say, we’re not going to do an unlimited icon pass. That’s our plan. There’s too much traffic.

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ABigford: They’re not. They know they need that to keep the ski area going. And there isn’t a real issue like that. It’s not like black and white.

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Stuart Winchester: Right.

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ABigford: What concerns me is they can’t come up with the money to run the ski area, and they have no foundation to run a ski area. They have no expertise, and they have no plan for capital improvements.

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ABigford: They’re going to be on a tight budget with an 8.5, probably 9% junk bond to pay for this. And they don’t have a plan, you know, hardly to pay the employees, much less to do necessary improvements.

00:18:40.000 --> 00:18:56.000

ABigford: to take Eldora to the next step. So it’s you know, it’s disconcerting. And you know, I’ve learned that there was a good deal of support for an independent operator, you know, and this just isn’t the right situation.

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ABigford: You know, it sounds good. And nationwide, we’re going to be seeing more and more resorts try to be independent. But they got to have funding. They got to have.

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Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Okay.

00:19:07.000 --> 00:19:10.000

ABigford: you know, expertise. And that’s what we learned.

00:19:09.000 --> 00:19:16.000

Stuart Winchester: So, so let’s look at, let’s, let’s look at Powder’s part in this here. It seems like maybe they have a little blind spot from all the.

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Stuart Winchester: I’ve talked to a lot of sellers and a lot of buyers of ski areas, and the sellers…

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Stuart Winchester: almost always take on the responsibility of making sure that the person they’re selling to has that expertise you’re referring to. And, you know, Powder’s a good operator. They run Copper just down the road. They run Snowbird, one of my favorite ski areas anywhere.

00:19:40.000 --> 00:19:55.000

Stuart Winchester: And they’ve run Park City and Alpine Meadows in the past, but we’ve seen them flub things, right? They lost Park City on a technicality. You know, you lose your trophy property because someone didn’t sign something, and Vail came and punched you in the mouth and took it off your lunch tray.

00:19:56.000 --> 00:19:58.000

Stuart Winchester: Uh, you know, we…

00:19:58.000 --> 00:20:13.000

Stuart Winchester: We also saw them say, we’re gonna sell Bachelor. No, we’re not. Yeah, we’re gonna sell Bachelor. So, there’s not necessarily always a consistency of process. Going, like, drilling down into powder, and I realize you’re not.

00:20:13.000 --> 00:20:15.000

Stuart Winchester: in their offices.

00:20:15.000 --> 00:20:16.000

Stuart Winchester: Uh, but…

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Stuart Winchester: What do you think is keeping them from pulling this deal? And what would you tell them to do if you were advising them?

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ABigford: Yeah, I think it comes down to the owner, John Cumming, who’s got bigger fish to fry with the portfolio from his deceased dad, and um…

00:20:37.000 --> 00:20:53.000

ABigford: they are gonna start to get out of the ski resort business, and he’s been an outlier. He always has. He’s famously silent. He took a roll of the dice. It was a beautiful situation where he could sell to a town.

00:20:53.000 --> 00:21:12.000

ABigford: you know, at the highest price, and he just needs to step back from this and get back into running resort. So I would say you did everything you could, and it’s time to, you know, clear this off your plate and get back to running the resort, and uh…

00:21:12.000 --> 00:21:29.000

ABigford: He’s, you know, he was forewarned about this. So, Stuart, you’re not incorrect. You know, they knew it was a risk. Powder knew, you know, there was a time, there was environment. It was before this last very difficult season.

00:21:29.000 --> 00:21:38.000

ABigford: Maybe there was a way, but there isn’t. And they’ve tried everything. And so it’s time to get back to business.

00:21:38.000 --> 00:21:48.000

Stuart Winchester: How much of a warning sign was it… let’s talk about 303 Ski. It was a group of what you termed industry heavyweights who were…

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Stuart Winchester: I believe they were consulting with Eldora on the purchase and the right way to do it. I might not have it exactly right, but tell us about 303 Ski, why that fell apart, and what that may have told us about the state of this process.

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ABigford: Yeah, and they were formed to make their own effort to buy Eldora. So they were just like the Killington billionaires, but they didn’t quite have that much money.

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ABigford: And, you know, they were led by a strong group, and it included Blaise Kerig, who was the former Vail Resorts president, and he’s acquired a lot of ski areas.

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ABigford: So he was going to get involved. He gave us a lot of, you know. We were encouraged to see his name. It also had that that.

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ABigford: Justin Gold, who sold his his peanut butter fortune. He’s a Ned resident. He was involved in the grip, which was was led by Whitey, and I’m blanking on his last name. They went as high they were in the bidding.

00:23:03.000 --> 00:23:18.000

ABigford: and they could. They were businessmen without a lot of ski industry experience. They went as high as maybe 90, 95 million, and they couldn’t justify it. They couldn’t see going higher. So at about the same time the town of Nederland.

00:23:18.000 --> 00:23:22.000

ABigford: had.

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ABigford: decided that this could be their future. It would put them on the map, and they were going to make a bid for it. And it came out at the same time that 303 Ski was realizing that, you know, it wasn’t going to come up with enough money.

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Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

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ABigford: So they combined together very briefly, and it was, you know, quickly determined that they couldn’t go on. You can’t have a town with a private, you know, partnership going after tax-free muni rev bonds, and there were all kinds of difficulties.

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ABigford: But that was in play at one point.

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Stuart Winchester: Yeah, I was trying to…

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ABigford: You know, and they have, they have gone, you know, they’ve been out of the picture for 15 months.

00:24:07.000 --> 00:24:22.000

Stuart Winchester: Yeah, you made the point that a municipality running a ski area is rare, and I was trying to think of examples. I think maybe Diamond Peak in Tahoe, which from everyone I’ve talked to, it has somewhat of a dysfunctional.

00:24:22.000 --> 00:24:37.000

Stuart Winchester: management structure because there’s too many people who want it to be their private ski area. I can’t think of a lot more. I can think of a lot of non-profit ski areas, like Bridger Bowl and Bogus Basin, that invest all their money back in and are run well.

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ABigford: Right, right.

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ABigford: Yep.

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Stuart Winchester: But, you know, it would seem as though…

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Stuart Winchester: A town, even a small one, could set up a structure.

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Stuart Winchester: to support that. But what… is there something uniquely…

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Stuart Winchester: Complicated about a municipal government as opposed to.

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Stuart Winchester: You know, the, the 100 people who own Bogus Basin, it’s kind of like a co op or, or Bridger Bowl is, is more, uh, I actually don’t know if they’re, if they’re run by, uh, by Bozeman or not. But anyway, uh, is, is there something uniquely weird about a town or complicated that, that makes it just.

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Stuart Winchester: Not a good owner, or is it just this town?

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ABigford: The town does not have a great track record. And so, you know, I think it deserves further study to see the difference between municipal ownership and nonprofit ownership.

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Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

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ABigford: But you know they just, Stuart. They didn’t have the resources. They don’t. They don’t. They don’t have what they need, and you know, maybe somehow they could get it together. I mean, they’ve certainly learned from this. But.

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ABigford: Um, I, you know, it’s, it’s not an ideal situation. They don’t have a lot, you know, they have a very minority of people from the town that actually work at the ski area. Um, you know, a relative minority, um, who make up the visitation there.

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ABigford: So there’s a little bit of a feeling of Boulder County and beyond skiers that Eldora is being held hostage by the town of Netherlands desires to put itself on the map. And this just isn’t the right way to go about it.

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Stuart Winchester: All right, so let’s talk a little bit about Eldora and what it’s realistically going to take to run this place in a modern Colorado. Because as you point out, Colorado is one of the most competitive, it is the most competitive ski market in America. It’s home to a quarter of skiable terrain, a quarter of skier visits.

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Stuart Winchester: Here is the trail map for Eldora, okay? Like we said, it’s small. One high-speed lift going up here, for those watching on stormskiing.com or YouTube at Storm Ski Journal. And, you know, a really mess of really old lifts over here in the beginner terrain, and then you have some long, slow…

00:26:56.000 --> 00:27:00.000

Stuart Winchester: Fixed quads over here. Now, people who…

00:27:00.000 --> 00:27:10.000

Stuart Winchester: you know, Eldora has to compete against Copper, and Winter Park, and Arapahoe Basin, and all of the Vail Mountains. So, from your point of view.

00:27:10.000 --> 00:27:25.000

Stuart Winchester: what does Eldora need to do to modernize to stay relevant? And yes, the Icon Pass has been very successful, but everyone else is upgrading all the time, right? Especially in Colorado. So what do they need to do to modernize this mountain? And…

00:27:25.000 --> 00:27:31.000

Stuart Winchester: What sort of owner would they need to be able to pull that off?

00:27:31.000 --> 00:27:43.000

ABigford: Yeah, and it really presents a good, you know, challenge for us deep thinkers about what a resort does to.

00:27:43.000 --> 00:28:05.000

ABigford: position itself for you know what’s ahead. And and we’ve had our 1st detachable and expanded parking lot and a new beginner’s lodge. And you know, what do you do next? And we are already behind the curve, because times are.

00:28:05.000 --> 00:28:20.000

ABigford: tough right now, and we need to stay competitive. So because of the popularity of the Icon Pass and the type of skiers that draws, and the fact that Eldora.

00:28:20.000 --> 00:28:35.000

ABigford: has become a strong intermediate and above mountain, the natural return on investment is to replace the very popular old fixed Corona lift with a detachable.

00:28:35.000 --> 00:28:57.000

ABigford: So that’s the next move. That’s the cheapest, best immediate return. All right. So you’re over there. You’re seeing where Corona is, and that would access a great, you know, the Salto Glades and Moose, and not just Corona, but a couple trails that were cut recently.

00:28:46.000 --> 00:28:48.000

Stuart Winchester: Yeah.

00:28:57.000 --> 00:29:13.000

ABigford: that really took advantage of that terrain that seems, you know, that is a better expert range. So that’s where the thinking has evolved to. Now, if we go back to.

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ABigford: pre-Icon Pass, we wanted to be Boulder County’s beginner ski area. So, when we look not just at.

00:29:23.000 --> 00:29:41.000

ABigford: short-term return on investment, but on long-term impact on growing the sport. There’s one for you. Um, we would put in the new Jolly Jug lift, which is low angle, it is southern facing, and um…

00:29:40.000 --> 00:29:42.000

Stuart Winchester: Is that this one?

00:29:41.000 --> 00:29:45.000

ABigford: That’s off the top of the Alpenglow lift, and that has been approved.

00:29:44.000 --> 00:29:46.000

Stuart Winchester: Oh, there it is.

00:29:45.000 --> 00:30:04.000

ABigford: So, it’s just waiting. Now, the difficulty with that, why it would be a great step up from the Little Hawk beginner terrain to Jolly Jug to Alpenglow and Corona, but it’s south-facing, and it requires new snowmaking.

00:30:04.000 --> 00:30:12.000

ABigford: And that requires water that we don’t have right now. We’re in the middle of a drought. So, what do you do?

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Stuart Winchester: Right. Right. So, so…

00:30:16.000 --> 00:30:31.000

Stuart Winchester: You need professional management, and that’s why Killington worked. Phil Gross said from day one, we’re keeping Mike Solomano and the leadership team who’s been there under powder. They did a great job. And I skied around with Phil, and it was very enlightening, actually, because.

00:30:31.000 --> 00:30:47.000

Stuart Winchester: He’s just, like, a fan of the ski area. He skis it like anyone else. He clearly has no say on the operations. He leaves it to them. He’s like, oh, I don’t know if that lift is running today, and I don’t know, you know, I hope this trail is open, and so he’s not on the walkie-talkie saying, hey, uh.

00:30:47.000 --> 00:30:59.000

Stuart Winchester: I’m the rich owner, do what I want. He actually deferred to them. Did we just not see that happen with Netherlands? Was there just not that concession that.

00:30:59.000 --> 00:31:06.000

Stuart Winchester: I mean, were they actually going to try to run it as a town park, rather than leaving it to the hiring professional ski area management team?

00:31:07.000 --> 00:31:20.000

ABigford: Yes, so that’s what we don’t know, Stuart, and it’s troubling, and we think, to read between the lines, that they would have needed to.

00:31:10.000 --> 00:31:11.000

Stuart Winchester: Okay.

00:31:13.000 --> 00:31:14.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

00:31:20.000 --> 00:31:39.000

ABigford: engage with powder to have them oversee the resort into the future, maybe for several years, and let them do their thing. 303 is gone. There’s a lot of speculation about what the mayor might do, or the town council, and how they could be involved.

00:31:39.000 --> 00:31:56.000

ABigford: but it’s better left. It’s a very complex, very difficult business, much harder than running the town of Nederland, and I would like to see it in professional hands. And so those are the people that need to make the decision. And meanwhile.

00:31:56.000 --> 00:32:02.000

ABigford: We just kind of go through a period of uncertainty, so we don’t really know.

00:32:02.000 --> 00:32:18.000

Stuart Winchester: Yeah, as we look around the Colorado landscape, let’s just complicate this ownership potential a little bit. So most of Eldora’s surrounding mountains are owned by Powder Altera or Vail. I think the Justice Department made it clear when it investigated.

00:32:18.000 --> 00:32:27.000

Stuart Winchester: Elterra’s purchase of Arapahoe Basin, that a basin in Winter Park and Steamboat were enough in Colorado. I don’t think Vail’s getting any more in Colorado.

00:32:27.000 --> 00:32:32.000

Stuart Winchester: Bale Beaver Creek, Breck, Keystone, and Crested Butte. Powder will still have cop.

00:32:33.000 --> 00:32:41.000

Stuart Winchester: There could be an outside, like a Mountain Capital Partners or a Boyne that could come in and, you know, someone who really knows how to run a ski area.

00:32:41.000 --> 00:32:59.000

Stuart Winchester: You also have several independents in Colorado still. You have Sunlight, you have Monarch, and it’s interesting, I interviewed the GM of Monarch the other day, and what surprised me when I looked was Monarch skier visits in the Epic and Icon era have just gone up and up and up and up and up, even when they didn’t expand until last year, and they have a bunch of old double chairs.

00:32:59.000 --> 00:33:05.000

Stuart Winchester: Not that much terrain or vert. So, so there’s obviously a place in Colorado for, for small scale.

00:33:05.000 --> 00:33:07.000

Stuart Winchester: key areas.

00:33:07.000 --> 00:33:13.000

Stuart Winchester: Do you think there is an independent ownership model for Eldora?

00:33:13.000 --> 00:33:19.000

Stuart Winchester: Or would you rather see an experienced, proven company come in and buy it?

00:33:19.000 --> 00:33:36.000

ABigford: You know, it’s a good question, and I would, you know, an independent would be great. I think they have to partner with the Icon Pass, and so it’s become more difficult to sell a ski resort because.

00:33:30.000 --> 00:33:31.000

Stuart Winchester: Oh, yeah.

00:33:36.000 --> 00:33:53.000

ABigford: You don’t just have the seller and the buyer. You have the national pass. Icon, Epic, whatever it is. So it’s almost like a third party negotiation. And their scan rate that they’re going to get is critical. And is it going to keep going? And what were the circumstances?

00:33:45.000 --> 00:33:46.000

Stuart Winchester: Yeah.

00:33:53.000 --> 00:34:10.000

ABigford: where they came up with it. So it is much more, and so most of the operators that knocked around, um, you know, some of them were independent, but they oftentimes had a tie-in to, to, like, an IconPass.

00:34:10.000 --> 00:34:26.000

ABigford: So that’s that’s the way it’s been. And, you know, I think the relationship with Altera Icon is, is, you know, going to have to continue on. And as Eric Resnick will tell you.

00:34:26.000 --> 00:34:42.000

ABigford: from Ksl. Which which runs owns Altera, you know, doing this franchise system where they have owned resorts and franchise resorts like Aldora. It’s a lot harder.

00:34:42.000 --> 00:34:57.000

ABigford: But it can be more rewarding, too. So we have kind of a situation nationally where it’s owned Vail Resorts versus owned slash franchise, which is Icon, and we’ll see where it goes.

00:34:57.000 --> 00:35:16.000

Stuart Winchester: Do you think, and I agree with you, Icon needs to stay, but I want to take a look at A-Basin’s evolution real quick. So A-Basin was unlimited on the Epic Pass for years, and Vail was doing all kinds of Summit County passes that were $300, $400, and it just got insane at A-Basin. So Al Hansroth, longtime CEO, said, goodbye.

00:35:16.000 --> 00:35:20.000

Stuart Winchester: And he went and he got on Limited Icon and Mountain Collective.

00:35:20.000 --> 00:35:33.000

Stuart Winchester: And he wrote a series of notes, he does his Al’s blog, and he said, our skier visits are way down, but our revenue is up, and our experience is way better. Is there a world where Eldora.

00:35:33.000 --> 00:35:48.000

Stuart Winchester: right sizes? 400,000 sounds like a lot of skier visits for a skier of that size. Maybe it spreads out well, I don’t really know, I haven’t skied Eldora in a while. But do you think that, you know, a 7-5 day Icon deal could maybe help Eldora…

00:35:48.000 --> 00:35:54.000

Stuart Winchester: maybe make it a little bit more manageable? Or is it just, you know what, it’s working from a revenue point of view, and that’s not the thing to fix?

00:35:55.000 --> 00:36:12.000

ABigford: Yeah, and so what we’re looking at is parking lots, and that’s always been the muffler for A-Basin, is the limited parking. And Alan has gone through everything, and we’ve seen him evolve into what it is now.

00:35:59.000 --> 00:36:00.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

00:36:05.000 --> 00:36:06.000

Stuart Winchester: Oh.

00:36:12.000 --> 00:36:30.000

ABigford: And, um, I would guess A-Basin probably does more skier visits, and it’s just because they open on October and they close in June. They have a much longer season. So for the, you know, for the near future, I see Eldora, um.

00:36:22.000 --> 00:36:23.000

Stuart Winchester: Yeah.

00:36:30.000 --> 00:36:50.000

ABigford: sticking on the unlimited icon, but everybody’s different. And, you know, I mean, you can, you know, you can dissect the full-on icons, which is a steamboat and a copper, which have a big percentage of icon redemptions.

00:36:50.000 --> 00:37:02.000

ABigford: versus the limited, which is Steamboat, which is Snowbird, one of your favorite places, Alta, and it’s an interesting look at that. Um, it does play an important role, so…

00:37:02.000 --> 00:37:07.000

Stuart Winchester: All right, Andy, let’s finish up with this. You signed off your…

00:37:07.000 --> 00:37:23.000

Stuart Winchester: your column in Sam Magazine saying Powder should pull the plug with… you said they have three options, and the column was a couple weeks ago, so… so can you go through what you currently think, and maybe they’re the same, Powder’s options are.

00:37:23.000 --> 00:37:25.000

Stuart Winchester: And what they should do.

00:37:25.000 --> 00:37:47.000

ABigford: Yeah, I think the, I think that the only path for powder is to gracefully remove itself from this process. It’s got more than enough momentum to do so. Avoid the angst that’s going to appear in, you know, that’s going to show in the town. They’re already.

00:37:47.000 --> 00:38:06.000

ABigford: well past the expiration of their purchase agreement, so they’re not legally encumbered. Um, the town is stuck with a $2.5 million loss. That’s tough. And, um, but you’ve got to move on from that. And it’s apparent now.

00:38:06.000 --> 00:38:23.000

ABigford: more than ever that, you know, Powder really needs to put its intention on customers and staff and just get back to running in the ski area. They tried, it didn’t work out. So, you know, put the numbers first and get back to running a ski area.

00:38:23.000 --> 00:38:29.000

Stuart Winchester: When you say get back to running the ski area, as you said, you’re a long-time Eldora local, you’ve probably skied there hundreds and hundreds.

00:38:29.000 --> 00:38:35.000

Stuart Winchester: Were they not running it as well last year?

00:38:32.000 --> 00:38:48.000

ABigford: You know how it is, Stuart. Every employee there will tell you that things are normal, that they’re marching ahead, that it’s just like another season. But, you know, we know that there’s a dark cloud hanging over the future of it.

00:38:47.000 --> 00:38:48.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

00:38:48.000 --> 00:39:04.000

ABigford: And who’s going to own it? And is it going to be an unusual, never tried before ownership? And that’s what you can remove. And you need to remove it for all the people that frequent that place and that support it.

00:39:04.000 --> 00:39:08.000

ABigford: And, you know, enough is enough. We tried.

00:39:08.000 --> 00:39:19.000

Stuart Winchester: And how much did the last winter, which was not great, complicate the town’s intentions to purchase? Because I think it probably laid bare.

00:39:19.000 --> 00:39:24.000

Stuart Winchester: When you have a bad winter, you really need to know what you’re doing and have some backup.

00:39:24.000 --> 00:39:41.000

ABigford: I think that that was part of the reluctance of bond buyers to go into this unknown thing. I mean, would you buy a bond at 8.5% not knowing what the future was going to hold?

00:39:29.000 --> 00:39:30.000

Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Okay.

00:39:41.000 --> 00:39:55.000

ABigford: And they’ve got a lot more information than we do. So this last season, this points to the difference between, like, a Vail Resorts. They sell all those Appy Passes, they get the money.

00:39:55.000 --> 00:40:11.000

ABigford: When you look at a franchisee with an icon, they don’t get the money unless they do the scans. So it hits their pocketbook and it’s, you know, it can be painful. So it’s a step back and going into this season.

00:40:11.000 --> 00:40:14.000

ABigford: It’s important to note that.

00:40:14.000 --> 00:40:29.000

ABigford: Here in Colorado, most of our ski areas only have about 20% snowmaking. That’s all we’ve really needed. We rely on Mother Nature, and Eldora has always been very different since the.

00:40:29.000 --> 00:40:40.000

ABigford: tell Ertl days in that they’re 100% snowmaking. It’s windy, and they have different type of weather, so they need the snowmaking, therefore they need the water.

00:40:40.000 --> 00:40:41.000

Stuart Winchester: Yep.

00:40:40.000 --> 00:40:51.000

ABigford: to make the snow. And we know what’s going on with the drought. Water is a premium, so, you know, it’s gonna be a challenge.

00:40:47.000 --> 00:40:48.000

Stuart Winchester: Right.

00:40:51.000 --> 00:41:00.000

Stuart Winchester: All right, Andy, really appreciate you coming by today. I know you’re trying to retire. I don’t think writers can ever really retire. Are you working on anything you want to tell us about?

00:40:59.000 --> 00:41:28.000

ABigford: I am Stuart, and I’m working on a Ski Ink 2030 book in memoriam to Chris Diamond, who ran Steamboat and who basically led the way on the last couple of Ski Ink books. And I promised I would do it. And I was very involved in that one and the previous one. And I have to tell you that I’ve delayed it because I don’t know what’s going to happen.

00:41:05.000 --> 00:41:06.000

Stuart Winchester: Ooh, love it.

00:41:16.000 --> 00:41:17.000

Stuart Winchester: I just, uh…

00:41:28.000 --> 00:41:46.000

ABigford: And, um, you can say it’s sort of like having a baby, you just have a book, but, um, it’s not that easy, and I’d like to see what happens with the VR proxy battle, and with the new CEO at Altera, and to get a good.

00:41:33.000 --> 00:41:34.000

Stuart Winchester: Yes.

00:41:46.000 --> 00:41:50.000

ABigford: winner under our belt. So, that’s where I am.

00:41:49.000 --> 00:42:00.000

Stuart Winchester: It’s a great time to be writing about the evolution of lip service skiing, because there is a lot going on, and you are right in the heart of it, so thank you so much, Andy, for coming by. I really appreciate it. Let’s do this again soon.

00:41:59.000 --> 00:42:01.000

ABigford: Thank you very much.

00:42:01.000 --> 00:42:08.000

Stuart Winchester: All right. Okay, so that was great. I’ll just record my outro, and this one I’ll put out later today.

00:42:07.000 --> 00:42:11.000

ABigford: All right, all right, that’s awesome. Let’s stay in touch.

00:42:08.000 --> 00:42:10.000

Stuart Winchester: Yeah, alright.

00:42:10.000 --> 00:42:13.000

Stuart Winchester: Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

00:42:11.000 --> 00:42:17.000

ABigford: I hope that, I hope you got what you needed and wanted. And so.

00:42:16.000 --> 00:42:17.000

Stuart Winchester: Yeah, I’m…

00:42:17.000 --> 00:42:20.000

Stuart Winchester: Yeah, I’m always happy to riff on, uh…

00:42:20.000 --> 00:42:22.000

Stuart Winchester: Ideas for your book, just if you’re like…

00:42:22.000 --> 00:42:25.000

Stuart Winchester: want to talk about trends or whatever, I’m just…

00:42:24.000 --> 00:42:31.000

ABigford: Yeah, I, I’m, I mean, you know, I, I, the, the.

00:42:31.000 --> 00:42:35.000

ABigford: Consumer wants a national pass.

00:42:35.000 --> 00:42:36.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

00:42:36.000 --> 00:42:38.000

ABigford: And…

00:42:38.000 --> 00:42:49.000

ABigford: they’ve shown that, and we did have a renaissance. It did grow our skier visits, unprecedented. I’ve never seen it in almost 50 years.

00:42:41.000 --> 00:42:43.000

Stuart Winchester: Yeah.

00:42:45.000 --> 00:42:47.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

00:42:48.000 --> 00:42:49.000

Stuart Winchester: Yeah.

00:42:49.000 --> 00:43:05.000

ABigford: But now it’s time to pay the piper and make the next difficult choice. Those days are over. The Renaissance is over. The mega passes have stalled, and the fierce independent spirit has grown, even when it’s funded by private equity.

00:42:56.000 --> 00:42:57.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

00:43:05.000 --> 00:43:07.000

ABigford: So what happens next?

00:43:07.000 --> 00:43:08.000

Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Okay.

00:43:07.000 --> 00:43:11.000

ABigford: That’s why we watch and listen to you.

00:43:09.000 --> 00:43:26.000

Stuart Winchester: I know. It’s so fun, man. It’s so fun. I, I can’t wait. I, I wish the book was coming out sooner. I, I love these, these two. They were actually reading these books. Well, this one came out, I think, after, well, no, maybe before I started the storm, but they, they really got me inspired to start this whole newsletter.

00:43:26.000 --> 00:43:28.000

Stuart Winchester: Was reading you guys books.

00:43:26.000 --> 00:43:43.000

ABigford: Yeah, that’s really great to hear, Stuart. And the problem is that technology, I mean, it’s more of a daily or minute by minute story right now. And it’s hard to write a book. And that book was done at the, you know, it did, you know.

00:43:39.000 --> 00:43:40.000

Stuart Winchester: Yeah.

00:43:43.000 --> 00:43:59.000

ABigford: precede COVID, which we didn’t expect, but that was in an era before technology had taken a super advance, and part of me says, you know, you’re gonna write this in a book, you know, why can’t you get.

00:43:45.000 --> 00:43:47.000

Stuart Winchester: Yeah.

00:43:59.000 --> 00:44:04.000

ABigford: The CEO, right? We don’t know, right?

00:44:04.000 --> 00:44:06.000

Stuart Winchester: Yeah, yeah.

00:44:04.000 --> 00:44:07.000

ABigford: So that’s where I’m stuck.

00:44:06.000 --> 00:44:08.000

Stuart Winchester: Yeah.

00:44:07.000 --> 00:44:25.000

ABigford: So, I’m left more to a minute-by-minute, um, acknowledgement of how everything’s changing. I… I had hoped to publish in… in late summer 2027, so this coming late summer. I’ve delayed it to year… for a year to let it.

00:44:25.000 --> 00:44:27.000

ABigford: Work itself out.

00:44:27.000 --> 00:44:28.000

Stuart Winchester: Yeah.

00:44:27.000 --> 00:44:33.000

ABigford: And the heck with it after that. But right now, the Renaissance is over.

00:44:30.000 --> 00:44:31.000

Stuart Winchester: Right.

00:44:33.000 --> 00:44:35.000

ABigford: Isn’t it?

00:44:36.000 --> 00:44:42.000

Stuart Winchester: I’m coming to terms with that myself. I think I’m…

00:44:40.000 --> 00:44:44.000

ABigford: I’m just coming to terms with it now.

00:44:43.000 --> 00:44:44.000

Stuart Winchester: Yeah.

00:44:44.000 --> 00:44:52.000

Stuart Winchester: Yeah, I don’t know if I am as convicted as you are. I think I need to see…

00:44:52.000 --> 00:44:54.000

Stuart Winchester: One more normal winter.

00:44:54.000 --> 00:44:56.000

ABigford: That’s what I want.

00:44:54.000 --> 00:44:57.000

Stuart Winchester: Before I conclude, yeah.

00:44:57.000 --> 00:44:59.000

ABigford: We don’t know.

00:44:57.000 --> 00:44:59.000

Stuart Winchester: Because last winter, really, yeah.

00:44:59.000 --> 00:45:09.000

ABigford: We’ve seen the slippage in the epic, and I still think that creating that idea.

00:45:01.000 --> 00:45:02.000

Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.

00:45:09.000 --> 00:45:11.000

ABigford: Was huge.

00:45:10.000 --> 00:45:11.000

Stuart Winchester: Yeah.

00:45:11.000 --> 00:45:27.000

ABigford: But Rob Katz himself says that Vail Resorts is not going to be known for the Epic Pass, which is hard to stomach, but will be known for the experiences it provides at Vail Resorts properties.

00:45:27.000 --> 00:45:28.000

ABigford: in the future.

00:45:28.000 --> 00:45:30.000

ABigford: Do you buy that?

00:45:30.000 --> 00:45:40.000

Stuart Winchester: No, no, and I don’t know if you caught this, but in his last earnings call, after talking about the Epic Pass for 20 years, and saying we want 75% of visits to be pre-sale.

00:45:40.000 --> 00:45:44.000

Stuart Winchester: And spending 20 years crushing the lift ticket and ruining it as a product.

00:45:44.000 --> 00:45:50.000

Stuart Winchester: he all of a sudden couldn’t stop talking about Lyft tickets. He said, oh yeah, our Epic Pass sales are down 10%.

00:45:50.000 --> 00:45:58.000

Stuart Winchester: And I was like, seriously? How? $392 for a peak day at Beaver Creek, even half off, that’s a lot of money.

00:45:55.000 --> 00:45:57.000

ABigford: Thank you.

00:45:57.000 --> 00:46:14.000

ABigford: most of the people in the business think is the stupidest thing ever, and when it was hatched 20 years ago, the epic pass when they didn’t even think they would sell 500,000, much less a million, and now 2 million. They never thought that far ahead to say.

00:46:14.000 --> 00:46:22.000

ABigford: Where does this lead? And the bottom line, Stuart, is that mega passes stunt skier growth.

00:46:22.000 --> 00:46:23.000

ABigford: Period.

00:46:23.000 --> 00:46:24.000

Stuart Winchester: Yeah, thank you.

00:46:25.000 --> 00:46:27.000

Stuart Winchester: You think they start…

00:46:26.000 --> 00:46:27.000

ABigford: Okay.

00:46:27.000 --> 00:46:30.000

Stuart Winchester: Well, 6 of the last 7…

00:46:30.000 --> 00:46:33.000

Stuart Winchester: Winters were record winters.

00:46:33.000 --> 00:46:37.000

Stuart Winchester: or see your visits nationally. So I guess I’m not following.

00:46:37.000 --> 00:46:42.000

ABigford: I’m making a distinction between participation.

00:46:39.000 --> 00:46:40.000

Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Yeah.

00:46:41.000 --> 00:46:43.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

00:46:42.000 --> 00:46:44.000

ABigford: Which you cite.

00:46:43.000 --> 00:46:44.000

Stuart Winchester: Yeah.

00:46:44.000 --> 00:46:46.000

ABigford: Participants.

00:46:46.000 --> 00:46:49.000

ABigford: Very big distinction.

00:46:48.000 --> 00:46:54.000

Stuart Winchester: Okay, so you’re saying with the price of lift tickets and the focus on the highest price product? Yeah.

00:46:52.000 --> 00:47:03.000

ABigford: it scares people away. We went from being the cheapest thing around… we had a brief window where skiing went from being…

00:46:54.000 --> 00:46:56.000

Stuart Winchester: Yeah, yeah.

00:46:57.000 --> 00:46:59.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

00:47:03.000 --> 00:47:21.000

ABigford: ridiculously expensive to too good of a price to pass on, and so… but the result of all that is now the focus is on ticket windows, and nobody gets beyond that to see all the many deals. They just see it’s $3.90 a day.

00:47:07.000 --> 00:47:08.000

Stuart Winchester: Yeah, thank you.

00:47:08.000 --> 00:47:09.000

Stuart Winchester: Yeah.

00:47:21.000 --> 00:47:26.000

ABigford: plus thousands for accommodations and things. So that’s where it’s hurt us.

00:47:26.000 --> 00:47:31.000

Stuart Winchester: Yeah. I mean, we could have so many good conversations. I mean, yeah.

00:47:29.000 --> 00:47:35.000

ABigford: I know. So I don’t. And the truth is, I don’t know. I don’t know.

00:47:32.000 --> 00:47:33.000

Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Okay.

00:47:34.000 --> 00:47:35.000

Stuart Winchester: Yeah.

00:47:35.000 --> 00:47:40.000

Stuart Winchester: Well, part of the reason why I switched to the shorter format and got away from the longer…

00:47:40.000 --> 00:47:58.000

Stuart Winchester: less frequent pods is… it was just getting too hard to keep up, and I needed something that focused in the moment, and that I could turn quick. And so I relate it to everything you’re saying, it’s… I’m seeing it in real time. I would always rather write, but the truth is, I can do this really fast and pump these out, so…

00:47:58.000 --> 00:48:13.000

ABigford: So, you know, put yourself in my shoes, Stuart. A book that changes in our industry, now printing a book using offset printing, it’s more than a three-month process.

00:48:10.000 --> 00:48:11.000

Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Okay.

00:48:13.000 --> 00:48:14.000

Stuart Winchester: Oh, wow.

00:48:13.000 --> 00:48:30.000

ABigford: from sending them to to getting books back. It’s more than 3 months. It’s gone up a lot, and you know that’s the cheaper way to do it, and we always use a Canadian outfit called Friesens. You can go print on demand.

00:48:18.000 --> 00:48:19.000

Stuart Winchester: Wow.

00:48:23.000 --> 00:48:24.000

Stuart Winchester: Yeah, I’m.

00:48:30.000 --> 00:48:45.000

ABigford: But it’s much more expensive, and it’s smaller amounts, and it’s much more expensive. But you have, you know, it’s, it’s, you know, it’s, it can be a couple weeks. So, you know, those are among the things that I’m, you know, I’m sort of challenged with.

00:48:46.000 --> 00:48:57.000

ABigford: And three months will be, you know, it’s more like four months. Just imagine, you know, writing something and then waiting four months to have it published. Think about that.

00:48:46.000 --> 00:48:47.000

Stuart Winchester: Yeah.

00:48:49.000 --> 00:48:51.000

Stuart Winchester: Yeah.

00:48:55.000 --> 00:48:57.000

Stuart Winchester: Yeah.

00:48:57.000 --> 00:49:03.000

Stuart Winchester: No, I know, I graduated J-School in 2008, so I kind of was just at the beginning of everything.

00:49:03.000 --> 00:49:18.000

Stuart Winchester: you know, switching around, so I… I didn’t live… I don’t have the lived experience, yeah. You know, I grew up without the internet, but I didn’t… I didn’t work without the internet, so I can only… every time I’m doing this, you know, I probably Google.

00:49:05.000 --> 00:49:08.000

ABigford: Good for you for going that far.

00:49:19.000 --> 00:49:24.000

Stuart Winchester: 50 things for every, you know, newsletter I write, and it’s just like…

00:49:24.000 --> 00:49:28.000

Stuart Winchester: You just had to remember things, and have the access, or just leave them out, or estimate.

00:49:28.000 --> 00:49:40.000

ABigford: I know, and when you do Google it, and I’m sure you use AI a lot, you know, you got to look at the source, because it’s not… it’s oftentimes not right, but…

00:49:35.000 --> 00:49:37.000

Stuart Winchester: Oh yeah.

00:49:38.000 --> 00:49:48.000

Stuart Winchester: Yeah, well, that’s why I build my own database, because I go… when I find a legit source, I put it in there, and then I’m like, okay, because I got tired of looking things up all the time, so…

00:49:47.000 --> 00:50:05.000

ABigford: Yeah, and you’re right about the expansions being equal to 15 ski areas out here in the West, those expansions, but at the same time, you know, Vail Resorts and the Robcats model is built on, it’s a closed business.

00:49:54.000 --> 00:49:55.000

Stuart Winchester: Yeah.

00:50:05.000 --> 00:50:12.000

ABigford: And that’s what, you know, sells, helps sell stock that, you know, there aren’t new.

00:50:09.000 --> 00:50:10.000

Stuart Winchester: Yeah.

00:50:12.000 --> 00:50:28.000

ABigford: Ski resorts coming in. There’s no competition. You can expand in your footprint, but, um, you know, it’s just another other interesting, you know, um, sidebar in this, you know, where you have 475 different stories.

00:50:14.000 --> 00:50:15.000

Stuart Winchester: That’s right.

00:50:28.000 --> 00:50:38.000

Stuart Winchester: Yeah, no, I think you’re absolutely right, and when I was reading through those lawsuits, I thought most of them were nonsense, but they did win me over on the fact that the.

00:50:28.000 --> 00:50:30.000

ABigford: That’s how many results there are.

00:50:38.000 --> 00:50:43.000

Stuart Winchester: Destination market has been captured and divided up in that.

00:50:43.000 --> 00:51:01.000

Stuart Winchester: that really can’t be expanded, um, and… and we’ve set ourselves up with a regulatory structure to make sure that’s so. So it can… yes, each resort can be expanded, but new resorts can’t. So you’re absolutely right. So, I don’t know, I gotta run right now, but uh… I think we could have a lot… I think we could do this again.

00:50:59.000 --> 00:51:01.000

ABigford: It’s good catching up.

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Who

Brandi Hammon, President and CEO of Powder Mountain and Powder Haven, Utah

Date Recorded

Oct. 22, 2026

About Powder Mountain & Powder Haven

Powder Mountain and Powder Haven are two sides of one interconnected ski area. The general public can ski anywhere, but they can only ride the lifts on the Powder Mountain side. The Powder Haven lifts are reserved for the ski area’s private homeowners.

Located in: Eden, Utah

Owned by: Reed Hastings

Year founded: 1972 (as Powder Mountain; Powder Haven terrain carved out in 2024)

Pass affiliations: None

Lift-served base elevation:

* Powder Mountain: 6,905 feet (bottom of Paradise Express)

* Powder Haven: 6,326 (bottom of Primetime Express)

Lift-served summit elevation:

* Powder Mountain: 9,004 feet (top of Lightning Ridge lift)

* Powder Haven: 8,882 feet (top of Mary’s lift)

Lift-served vertical drop:

* Powder Mountain: 2,099 feet

* Powder Haven: 2,556 feet

Skiable acres: 8,000 total

* Powder Mountain: 5,000

* Powder Haven: 3,000

Average annual snowfall: 345 inches

Lift count: 15 total (5 high-speed quads, 6 fixed-grip quads, 1 triple, 1 poma, 1 ropetow, 1 carpet)

* Powder Mountain: 9 (3 high-speed quads, 2 fixed-grip quads, 1 triple, 1 poma, 1 ropetow, 1 carpet)

* Powder Haven: 6 (2 high-speed quads, 4 fixed-grip quads)

Why I interviewed her

A very dumb story about a very dumb person, Volume III

Last year, Powder Mountain’s communications team reached out to ask if I would like to host resort owner and Netflix co-founder Reed Hastings on The Storm Skiing Podcast. Why yes, I believe I can squeeze him in, I replied. Great, they said. And one more thing: Reed would like to record the podcast onsite here at Powder Mountain. Which OK I guess, if I absolutely have to I will fly to Utah and ski on your awesome gigantic mountain. And besides I’m already scheduled to ski around Idaho in a few weeks so I’ll just plan to fly through of SLC and roll through Pow Mow on my way out the door. The logistics would be a little wacky, but I’d make it work. Cool? Cool. See you soon.

On interview day, I woke up at 4 a.m. in Twin Falls, Idaho, a roughly three-hour, mostly-interstate drive from Powder Mountain. Traffic rolled smoothly in the predawn, and a bit after seven I was driving up the resort’s long access road among heavy snowfall. As instructed I parked in the special Rich Person lot at Pow Mow’s summit and went into the special Rich Person Building, where after some fussing the attendants allowed me to enter and pillage the Rich Person Buffet. I was early and I sat alone and an attractive couple sat beside me and I suppose mistaking me for a fellow Rich Person began chatting with me, and, though tempted to invent a story about how I was a big-game guide for Rich People interested in hunting things like rhinos and Siberian tigers and yes Bigfeet are real and we know where to kill them, I told them I was a journalist here to interview Reed. And they said OMG he’s doing so great we love it and everything is awesome and they spent all their time there skiing mach pow. Well all their time that they weren’t in the Bay Area, they told me, which was less and less these days, since they were now retired. And this confused me because they both looked to be about 35, so I guessed that either they had invented, like, the microchip or something else equally at the center of the Robot Takeover or that maybe they had reverse-engineered aging and were actually 175 years old and I nearly quizzed them on Antietam to see if the Never-Forget day-of angst seemed overly familiar to them but by then Pow Mow’s team had arrived to escort me to Reed.

In the upper room of a nearby condominium we reorganized furniture and I assembled my mobile interview kit of cameras and microphones and halo lights. Reed arrived and he was a perfectly pleasant fellow as I’d expected and I interviewed him and Pow Mow Chief Creative Officer Alex Zhang against a full-wall window’s view of nuclear Wasatch pow. We talked for maybe 50 minutes and then Reed, clearly anxious to snowboard the foot or so of fresh awaiting us, excused himself because what’s the point of owning a mountain if you just sit inside answering some idiot’s questions about chairlifts on a pow day? So I thanked him and he left and before voyaging out myself into this wonderful Utah thumper I wanted to quickly download the Zoom files to make sure everything was tight and would you listen to this:

Listen to what, Stu?

Stu? There’s no sound. Am I doing it wrong?

No. You’re not doing it wrong. I am just showing you how the interview that I had traveled thousands of miles in circles for came out. I mean it came out great. Other than the fact that I didn’t record any sound. Otherwise Man I totally f*****g crushed it.

The second I realized that I had blown one of the biggest interviews of my career by omitting what most people would consider to be the most important part of an interview which is the sound of people saying things, which was like the second after Reed left, I felt about as shitty and stupid as I ever have in my entire life. I’ve never been so miserable skiing as I was that day even though the snow was deep and the trails were empty and Pow Mow had set me up with a guide and access to the Rich Person Private Lifts. Still I hoped somehow I’d recorded the audio somewhere on the many cameras and devices I’d had running. At my hotel that night I checked everything and checked it again and checked it again and then concluding that no sound existed and all I had was useless video of important people in a room against a snowy window I slept for like 12 hours because that’s what I do when I’m stressed is just leap down the go-to-sleep escape hatch and disappear from the world.

So that happened. Pretty simple story, really: I agreed to do something that I did not know how to do (record an in-person podcast), and then failed to adequately prepare for it, and then unsurprisingly blew the whole thing because well I didn’t know what the f**k I was doing. I just assumed Zoom would have a safeguard. But there is no safeguard. The safeguard is not having a moron in charge of the setup. Well who hired that guy?

Anyway I tried a bunch of different things to salvage the footage, including AI lip-reading apps so I could at least produce a transcript. This… did not work. And Pow Mow’s team kept being like Brah when’s the story going up? And I kept being like well I fucked it up but I think I can salvage something just hold on and we went back and forth like that three or four times and eventually I assumed they just gave up and I was kind of relieved even if I remained deeply disappointed in myself and my ability to do simple things like record a video which literally my cat can do if I leave my phone open on the kitchen table.

So I was surprised a few weeks ago when Powder Mountain’s team reached out and said hey how about we give this another shot there Big Guy? And I was like are you sure you got the right guy you remember what happened last time? But this time instead of asking me to pretend like I’m an actual professional journalist who does things like go places they let me just record the interview from my basement in New York with my cat photo-bombing and Brandi set up by those nice big windows (different windows, I believe) in Utah.

And she was great. And this whole section has nothing to do with Pow Mow and you’re probably like thanks for nothing Bro I still don’t understand all this Powder Haven business and which lifts are coming and which ones are going, I mean it’s like the Sneetches on the Beaches over there we don’t know which one was that one or which one was who. And my apologies McBroseph but you’re just gonna have to listen to the interview I guess. There’s a transcript that you can see on a desktop computer machine above by the video viewer, but no Zoom transcript today because guess what I fucked that up too and you’re probably like Bro you just have to hit the “robot record” button how could you possibly get that wrong? And it’s like I don’t know Man sometimes living in the future is great like how doctors keep intercepting my mortal wounds and keeping me alive. But then again when living in the past I would just hit the “on” button and the TV would show me a channel and now I can watch anything ever made anytime I want but it takes me 10 minutes to turn on the TV and find the proper app and sign in and locate the show and then God help me I push the wrong button and send the television into some sort of Settings Hell where I can adjust the brightness and tone but really all I wanted to do was watch Dark Matter. And I don’t know dude if that box was real I might just slip in and take a look around for a world where phones are still wired into the wall and have no purpose other than to enable talking to people who are in another room somewhere else.

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Who

Jackson Hogen

Date Recorded

Oct. 22, 2026

The take up top

On Monday, Vail Resorts issued a note to investors encouraging them to vote against the slate of board nominees endorsed by Oasis Capital, which is attempting to seize control of the company. I mostly cite Town Lift’shttps://townlift.com/2026/10/vail-renominates-its-sitting-board-puts-matthew-prince-in-the-middle-of-the-fight/article on the note in my analysis.

Why I interviewed him

Jackson has been rooted in the worlds of ski manufacturing, distribution, sales, and testing for decades. For many years, he ran Real Skiers, a website that offered bespoke expert ski advice. While he’s stepped away from the site, he remains dialed into how the forces of e-commerce, private equity, and ski media disintegration have, separately but simultaneously, irretrievably transformed an analogue world of precision tools into an online bazaar of click-my-affiliate-link guesswork reviews. It’s disheartening, but perhaps not catastrophic – select legacy ski companies continue to improve their products, specialty shops remain equipped with staff that can appropriately match equipment to your profile, and objective ratings – while difficult to pinpoint in the five-star-these-very-good crapstorm of Amazon rando rankings – do exist. Where? We discuss.

Transcripts

There are two transcripts. Both are generated by robots. Both are helpful and defective in their own unique ways. I do not proofread either of them.

Transcript 1: Click the “transcript” button at the top of this article. You can only see this transcript on a computer. Because I don’t know why exactly but everything is getting better and dumber all at once it seems. Anyway, this is the transcript that the robots create when I upload the podcast to the internet. The cool thing about it is that you can click on any block of text and the audio will teleport there instantly. The uncool thing about this transcript is that it does not indicate who is talking at any given moment.

Transcript 2: You can read this below. This is the transcript that Zoom creates as we record the podcast. The cool thing about this transcript is that it indicates who is talking at any given moment. The uncool thing about this transcript is that the timestamps do not match the audio. Also, you cannot click on this text to move to the associated point in the audio.

Zoom

Stuart Winchester: My guest today is a ski industry insider going back decades. He was the editor of realskiers.com, which offered expert ski gear advice. His decades-long ski industry career includes stints as a ski designer, binding and boot product manager, freestyle competitor, retail salesman, risk management lecturer.

00:22:00.000 --> 00:22:16.000

Stuart Winchester: Ski instructor and extreme camp ski coach, marketing director, resort feature writer, television host, screenwriter, and author of the excellent book Snowbird Secrets, which is about snowbird, but also will teach you how to ski. He is a very good friend of the storm. He is the pontiff of powder. He is Jackson Hogan.

00:22:16.000 --> 00:22:21.000

Stuart Winchester: Jackson, welcome back to The Storm. Long overdue. How you doing today, Jackson?

00:22:18.000 --> 00:22:19.000

Jackson Hogen: Oh.

00:22:20.000 --> 00:22:37.000

Jackson Hogen: So good to see you, Stu. Well, at this age, every day is a little different. The aging process, as many people have noted, is not for pussies, and it has certainly been a challenging year in that regard. But I’m skiing, I’m golfing, I’m doing exactly what I want to do.

00:22:29.000 --> 00:22:30.000

Stuart Winchester: Okay.

00:22:37.000 --> 00:22:53.000

Jackson Hogen: I may not be doing it as well as I used to, but I’m still in the game. So that’s all I can ask for. And I’ve got a lot of great friends to go skiing with. So, you know, skiing is, I’ve tried to take care of skiing all my life and now it’s time for skiing to take care of me and we’ll see how that goes.

00:22:53.000 --> 00:23:06.000

Stuart Winchester: Well, one of the changes in the past year, as I mentioned in the intro, was that you dispensed with your responsibility for real skiers, so just… I guess first reflect on…

00:23:06.000 --> 00:23:08.000

Stuart Winchester: what you…

00:23:08.000 --> 00:23:12.000

Stuart Winchester: hope your legacy is with Real Skiers, and then what you did with it.

00:23:12.000 --> 00:23:14.000

Stuart Winchester: In the end.

00:23:13.000 --> 00:23:20.000

Jackson Hogen: Sure. Who knows what one’s legacy will be? What I tried to do.

00:23:20.000 --> 00:23:36.000

Jackson Hogen: was do the best job I could imagine doing to try to give people accurate ski buying advice. Turns out, over the long run, that’s a very expensive proposition. It takes a ton of effort and time, because you have to corral ski testers, cajole them, you know, they have to have a.

00:23:36.000 --> 00:23:50.000

Jackson Hogen: methodology that’s easy to communicate, you have to have test cards that are both digital and paper. Digital turned out to be a disaster, because whatever software outfit was building my little interface.

00:23:50.000 --> 00:24:06.000

Jackson Hogen: Would invariably fail the night before the first big ski ski event, so it was, it was fraught with challenges left, right, and center, but in the end, the reason I attracted the audience I did get was they, they knew that I was.

00:24:06.000 --> 00:24:08.000

Jackson Hogen: Trying…

00:24:08.000 --> 00:24:13.000

Jackson Hogen: As hard as humanly possible to get them an unbiased, clean look.

00:24:13.000 --> 00:24:28.000

Jackson Hogen: at the principal ski market. In other words, I already told people, I don’t care that you go backcountry skiing. Yes, it’s great, bravo, I don’t cover that. I cover lift service terrain that real people go pay real money to go ski, and they want to get the most from that experience.

00:24:28.000 --> 00:24:42.000

Jackson Hogen: And they could be female testers, so I had to try to get female testers. I remember hauling all my women’s ski up to Squaw and putting it in a rental space so that the female instructors at Squaw could go and ski on them.

00:24:42.000 --> 00:24:46.000

Jackson Hogen: I worked literally every single day to try to get.

00:24:46.000 --> 00:24:49.000

Jackson Hogen: The best result, as, as…

00:24:49.000 --> 00:24:56.000

Jackson Hogen: as grounded in a real world process as possible.

00:24:56.000 --> 00:24:58.000

Jackson Hogen: So…

00:24:58.000 --> 00:25:13.000

Jackson Hogen: I kept my audience because I kept that promise, to constantly try to do my very best, although as things wound down, that became increasingly difficult. This… the substructure of the whole ski market collapsed.

00:25:13.000 --> 00:25:14.000

Jackson Hogen: Um…

00:25:14.000 --> 00:25:30.000

Jackson Hogen: The dirty little secret of everybody’s ski test going back decades is that it is paid for. You don’t just show up with your skis and say, here, I want you to test these. You show up with your skis and a check to go test these.

00:25:30.000 --> 00:25:32.000

Stuart Winchester: For the… a check for the ski area?

00:25:31.000 --> 00:25:45.000

Jackson Hogen: No, no, for the testing entity, for a ski magazine, for skiing magazines, for anybody who’s running a ski test outside, you know, there’s a bill attached with getting your skis into that ski test.

00:25:33.000 --> 00:25:35.000

Stuart Winchester: Testers.

00:25:35.000 --> 00:25:37.000

Stuart Winchester: Testing. Okay.

00:25:44.000 --> 00:25:49.000

Stuart Winchester: Okay, so the manufacturers were paying ski, skiing, etc.

00:25:48.000 --> 00:26:08.000

Jackson Hogen: Yeah, and I knew that. I didn’t start out where they ended up in terms of… I didn’t have the clout to just say, well, $77,000 and you’re in. I started at very modest fees, but built it up based on readership, and based on the fact that, yeah, this thing has traction, and it’s real, and it has value.

00:25:49.000 --> 00:25:50.000

Stuart Winchester: Okay.

00:26:08.000 --> 00:26:11.000

Jackson Hogen: But, this is the big but.

00:26:11.000 --> 00:26:36.000

Jackson Hogen: The ski industry went into a sort of, well, not sort of a tailspin. It was a genuine tailspin. And it’s been in it, at least at the retail level, for at least five, six years. And at the wholesaler level, what that has meant is each one of those five years began with optimism and said, we’re going to be up 20%. No one ever kept their job by going to the boss’s office and saying, hey, we’ll only be down 20% this year. That’s not a winning proposition. So everyone.

00:26:33.000 --> 00:26:34.000

Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Okay.

00:26:36.000 --> 00:26:42.000

Jackson Hogen: submits a budget to the parent company and to the boss, saying, this is what I think we’re going to spend.

00:26:42.000 --> 00:26:49.000

Jackson Hogen: On the marketing page, I was down near the bottom of that budget. I wasn’t at the top. There were other priorities ahead of me, darn.

00:26:47.000 --> 00:26:48.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

00:26:49.000 --> 00:27:00.000

Jackson Hogen: So when they… when they suddenly realized that for the second year in a row, third year in a row, fourth year in a row, fifth year in a row, they blew their forecast by Pollyanna numbers, which are never gonna meet.

00:27:00.000 --> 00:27:10.000

Jackson Hogen: And you… where do you start your cuts? Well, you don’t start it at the top, you start your cuts at the bottom. So, myself and anyone like myself.

00:27:10.000 --> 00:27:22.000

Jackson Hogen: went to the cutting room floor, um, starting about, I don’t know, 4 years ago, making it, you know, financially less feasible to continue. I shouldered on for as long as I could.

00:27:22.000 --> 00:27:30.000

Jackson Hogen: Until there was, as Gertrude Stein might have said, there was no there there.

00:27:30.000 --> 00:27:41.000

Jackson Hogen: looked around for, what should I do? Should I try to sell it? Well, there’s really not a buyer’s market for it, when they sort of say, well, how am I going to continue to make money, Jackson?

00:27:41.000 --> 00:27:51.000

Jackson Hogen: Beats me. Good luck. Pat on the back. So no, all dressed up and no place to go. And so I said, well.

00:27:51.000 --> 00:28:08.000

Jackson Hogen: Let’s just give it away. Let’s not worry about whether I can get five grand or 50 grand or anything else. Let’s just give it to someone else who gives a s**t. And in my opinion, present company are the are two of the journalists left in skiing and I.

00:28:08.000 --> 00:28:11.000

Jackson Hogen: Gave real skiers to the one other guy who.

00:28:11.000 --> 00:28:26.000

Jackson Hogen: is worthy of that title, uh, Seth Masia. And Seth agreed that Skiing History would take over Real Skiers. They… they are now the… my… my bill for my server now goes to them, all that sort of stuff. Um…

00:28:26.000 --> 00:28:41.000

Jackson Hogen: the… I tried as hard as I could to re… refund people who were getting billed at the same time that I was opening the site to everyone. Real Skiers is now… it never went offline, it’s still there, even though it’s, like, people trying to hack it, all kinds of crap has gone on behind the screen.

00:28:37.000 --> 00:28:38.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

00:28:41.000 --> 00:28:59.000

Jackson Hogen: But it’s… it’s still there, it’s still viable, um, it consists of, gosh, 165 podcasts, I think over 330 essays, all of which I read again. Not a… there’s… I’m sorry to say, if people are looking for… for dirt, there’s not a lie in it, I didn’t miss a trend, I didn’t…

00:28:59.000 --> 00:29:15.000

Jackson Hogen: you know, characterize anything in a way that turned out not to be true. Um, so I still feel that a great deal of the content… sure, the annual ski reviews, you’re only interested in if you go to a ski swap, and you found this older version of XYZ, and you want to read something about it.

00:29:15.000 --> 00:29:21.000

Jackson Hogen: But there’s a lot more content to Real Skiers than just the ski reviews.

00:29:21.000 --> 00:29:32.000

Jackson Hogen: that is now up for… the contract calls for skiing history to keep it up for 5 years. Um, at that point in time, if there’s absolutely no activity, then they’ll probably let it slip beneath the waves.

00:29:32.000 --> 00:29:49.000

Jackson Hogen: But the hope is that they can use it as a vehicle to expand their portfolio and help it for fundraising. And I couldn’t think of a better custodian for what I’ve done. So it’s it’s out there in all of its essence, including thousands of ski reviews.

00:29:49.000 --> 00:30:04.000

Jackson Hogen: But it’s the other stuff that turned out to be timeless. When I proposed to Peter Kelty, who founded Real Skiers many years ago, and who he and I worked together for a couple of years in transition, and I said, I think I should do a weekly newsletter.

00:30:04.000 --> 00:30:13.000

Jackson Hogen: You know, free, so that people won’t have a barrier to seeing it. And he haughtily told me that you’ll run out of ideas in a month.

00:30:13.000 --> 00:30:24.000

Jackson Hogen: Well, 330 revelations later, ha ha ha, that was absolutely untrue. There was always a need. And that allowed me, gave me a platform.

00:30:19.000 --> 00:30:20.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

00:30:24.000 --> 00:30:27.000

Jackson Hogen: whereby I could analyze anything I chose to, so…

00:30:27.000 --> 00:30:31.000

Jackson Hogen: you know, I indulged myself, but it’s also…

00:30:31.000 --> 00:30:38.000

Jackson Hogen: Because people wanted to know the man behind the myth, if you will, I wrote a series called The Making of a Skier about my lifetime on skis.

00:30:38.000 --> 00:30:48.000

Jackson Hogen: which ultimately ends up getting very personal about my family, so that, again, my humanism, to such a degree that I have it, is on the table as well.

00:30:48.000 --> 00:30:50.000

Jackson Hogen: And…

00:30:50.000 --> 00:31:00.000

Jackson Hogen: I… the podcasts are… I mean, I… everything I tried to do, I tried to do as well as I could on my shoestring budget. So I never…

00:31:00.000 --> 00:31:15.000

Jackson Hogen: I never tried to come short on quality, and I never said I can’t do that because I don’t have the time. I just make the time to try to do the best you can. And I think it’s still a valid tool, especially considering that all the rest of so-called ski journalism has just cratered.

00:31:16.000 --> 00:31:22.000

Jackson Hogen: I mean, we have more bad actors in trade right now than we have good ones, so…

00:31:16.000 --> 00:31:18.000

Stuart Winchester: So with with.

00:31:21.000 --> 00:31:27.000

Stuart Winchester: So as I want to go back to that point you made about there’s a tier.

00:31:27.000 --> 00:31:32.000

Stuart Winchester: That the ski companies have, where they’ll pay for…

00:31:32.000 --> 00:31:43.000

Stuart Winchester: testing, and you were at the bottom, so there must have still been people above you, even though the legacy magazines have gone away. So, from your point of view.

00:31:44.000 --> 00:31:48.000

Stuart Winchester: Well, who’s left, first of all, do you know? And from your point of view.

00:31:48.000 --> 00:32:02.000

Stuart Winchester: Is there any trustworthy source online for ski reviews? Everybody keeps pointing me to Blister, I haven’t been deep into the site yet, but please lay out what you can for us.

00:31:57.000 --> 00:31:59.000

Jackson Hogen: What?

00:32:01.000 --> 00:32:20.000

Jackson Hogen: Well, I think Blister’s a good place to start, because I think they are also extremely conscientious, uh, whip-smart. Uh, last I heard, it was $7,000 to get reviewed by them. It’s… if it’s… if they’re still doing that, I’m sure they’re probably asking for more. Um…

00:32:08.000 --> 00:32:09.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

00:32:18.000 --> 00:32:20.000

Stuart Winchester: Yeah.

00:32:20.000 --> 00:32:38.000

Jackson Hogen: And, uh, they do a very, very different methodology, which I disagree strongly with, but… but it is conscientious, and it’s not unconscious, they’re not doing it because it’s the cheap way to do it, or the stupid way to do it, and maybe that’s not even the way they do it anymore, but they used to send.

00:32:26.000 --> 00:32:27.000

Stuart Winchester: Okay.

00:32:38.000 --> 00:32:53.000

Jackson Hogen: the article under… in question, Ski XYZ, off to Ski Tester, who could be God knows anywhere, you know, he could be in New Zealand, and, you know, they spared no expense getting it to that person, and they kept it, and they kept doing it, um…

00:32:54.000 --> 00:33:01.000

Jackson Hogen: in this, you know, one person lives with the product till they really get to know it, that’s almost antithetical.

00:33:01.000 --> 00:33:04.000

Jackson Hogen: to the way I was taught up to do a ski test.

00:33:04.000 --> 00:33:05.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

00:33:04.000 --> 00:33:07.000

Jackson Hogen: Um, the…

00:33:08.000 --> 00:33:10.000

Jackson Hogen: The objective…

00:33:10.000 --> 00:33:30.000

Jackson Hogen: is to be as fresh as you can, get as fresh an image as you can, and then go and collect the next image of the comparable ski in the same category and try to get those events up back to back to back to back to back. The more you live with the product, the more you’re going to like it, the more you’re going to find out and you’re like, oh, well, this was great in the slush.

00:33:19.000 --> 00:33:21.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

00:33:30.000 --> 00:33:41.000

Jackson Hogen: who the hell cares? I just think it’s… I think it’s asking… in this particular instance, it’s asking the wrong questions. And maybe they’re asking different questions now, because frankly, I’ve lost interest in looking at people that.

00:33:41.000 --> 00:33:45.000

Jackson Hogen: Used to be perceived as competitors.

00:33:45.000 --> 00:33:56.000

Jackson Hogen: I mean, outside’s effort is a pale, pale substitute for what they used to do, and I know what they used to do very, very well, because I ski tested for about 20 years for a ski magazine.

00:33:55.000 --> 00:34:05.000

Stuart Winchester: So take us into that. What was it like, and what is it like now? And I’m assuming you have sources inside who are still doing it, or is your perception just from reading it?

00:34:03.000 --> 00:34:09.000

Jackson Hogen: Yeah, yeah, yeah, but, well, it’s gone from an exercise that took.

00:34:09.000 --> 00:34:12.000

Jackson Hogen: Five days of intensive.

00:34:12.000 --> 00:34:22.000

Jackson Hogen: skiing your little heart out wherever we were, sometimes as many as 25 skis a day, which is too much. I don’t care where you are or who you are.

00:34:13.000 --> 00:34:15.000

Stuart Winchester: Yeah.

00:34:19.000 --> 00:34:21.000

Stuart Winchester: Yeah.

00:34:21.000 --> 00:34:25.000

Stuart Winchester: Yeah, it’s hard to get 25 runs in a day, let alone changing skis.

00:34:23.000 --> 00:34:34.000

Jackson Hogen: Well, but it’s a one-run, one-ski. I mean, you’ve got to… you can’t indulge it and say, I just need one more run. No, you don’t. I need your skis. Get off them and get, you know, shut up and.

00:34:25.000 --> 00:34:26.000

Stuart Winchester: Yeah.

00:34:29.000 --> 00:34:30.000

Stuart Winchester: Yes.

00:34:33.000 --> 00:34:34.000

Stuart Winchester: Yeah.

00:34:34.000 --> 00:34:51.000

Jackson Hogen: It had an incredible test crew. I mean, unimpeachable in its breadth and quality. Um, that’s gone. I mean, I think there’s still some legacies from that. I mean, Todd Kelly, I think, is still doing it, because they’ve been great guys. Rogan may still be doing it, because he’s one of the absolute.

00:34:45.000 --> 00:34:47.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

00:34:51.000 --> 00:35:00.000

Jackson Hogen: princes of our sport. I can’t tell you, I don’t have enough good words for Mike Rogan. Um, but he alone cannot make up a test, and they’ve gone from.

00:34:52.000 --> 00:34:54.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

00:35:00.000 --> 00:35:10.000

Jackson Hogen: basically owning the Vail Valley for a week for skis and a week for voots, with an armada of dedicated testers, all of whom had enviable resumes.

00:35:10.000 --> 00:35:27.000

Jackson Hogen: to a small crowd at the top of Mount Rose instead of someplace else, and two days of whatever weather they’ve got, and in two days, they go through whatever bundle they’ve got, and I didn’t look further under the hood, nor do I try to step in and bug people when they’re trying to do their job, it’s just…

00:35:26.000 --> 00:35:27.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

00:35:27.000 --> 00:35:42.000

Jackson Hogen: Observationally, much smaller cast, vastly reduced amount of time on the snow, and appropriate plunge and prestige. I mean, I don’t, I don’t, I’ve never had a reader saying, boy, I’m really interested in what they’ve got to say over there.

00:35:42.000 --> 00:35:43.000

Jackson Hogen: Oh.

00:35:44.000 --> 00:35:46.000

Stuart Winchester: OK, so OK, so it.

00:35:44.000 --> 00:35:45.000

Jackson Hogen: Ever.

00:35:46.000 --> 00:35:51.000

Stuart Winchester: If there’s a dearth of good sources for…

00:35:51.000 --> 00:36:00.000

Stuart Winchester: Trusted Ski Reviews. You’re still involved, I believe you still fit boots at your local ski shop. Is the best route.

00:35:56.000 --> 00:35:57.000

Jackson Hogen: Yes.

00:36:00.000 --> 00:36:04.000

Stuart Winchester: To go demo stuff for skiers and actually try it?

00:36:05.000 --> 00:36:21.000

Jackson Hogen: why not? I mean, the industry does make that possible. Um, I know the mega resorts were trying to make it so you had a one-time sign-up fee, and then you remember, and you could go into their infinite, you know, number of skis. I mean, almost too much to have to deal with, the amount of stuff that they.

00:36:08.000 --> 00:36:09.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

00:36:21.000 --> 00:36:27.000

Jackson Hogen: that they’ve dragged, put into the tests that they do. Um, but I think, um.

00:36:28.000 --> 00:36:36.000

Jackson Hogen: you’re… most people aren’t very good ski testers, in part because they’re just not good enough skiers. They don’t…

00:36:36.000 --> 00:36:42.000

Jackson Hogen: They have a hard time differentiating between their bad day and the ski’s bad day.

00:36:40.000 --> 00:36:41.000

Stuart Winchester: No.

00:36:42.000 --> 00:36:47.000

Jackson Hogen: And there is definitely a discipline to it.

00:36:48.000 --> 00:36:49.000

Jackson Hogen: I just think…

00:36:49.000 --> 00:36:56.000

Jackson Hogen: there is, right now, you’re your own best bet. Read, sure, read stuff, I mean, um…

00:36:53.000 --> 00:36:54.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

00:36:56.000 --> 00:37:11.000

Jackson Hogen: Ski Essentials has a good reputation for at least reporting on skis. I’ve had an opportunity to watch those guys in action when we were at group events where more than one journalist was brought in to ski a brand’s new stuff.

00:37:11.000 --> 00:37:24.000

Jackson Hogen: And very impressive skier, um, and an amazing photographer, right, right on his tail, flying down the mountain, because they’re very good skiers, not poking his way down the hill. But it’s, it’s interesting when you watch.

00:37:24.000 --> 00:37:42.000

Jackson Hogen: a really good skier ski test, every ski looks exactly the same. I don’t know what they get from the video part, because I gleaned absolutely zero. Every run, he looked… because he’s a great skier, he made every ski look the same, and I don’t know… I’m sure his feedback was different, because, you know, you’re getting different sensations coming in.

00:37:42.000 --> 00:37:43.000

Jackson Hogen: But…

00:37:43.000 --> 00:37:52.000

Jackson Hogen: again, how are they capturing, really capturing the data? On the other hand, I think they’ve, based on all the feedback I hear, they do a great job of.

00:37:52.000 --> 00:37:57.000

Jackson Hogen: Putting information out there, however they gather it, and however they wait.

00:37:57.000 --> 00:38:00.000

Jackson Hogen: whatever results they’re putting into their system.

00:38:00.000 --> 00:38:14.000

Jackson Hogen: they see everything, as near as I can tell. They’re as ecumenical as they can be in terms of what’s available in the North American market, and they try to provide that feedback information as many ways as they can, and I think at the…

00:38:14.000 --> 00:38:20.000

Jackson Hogen: And the the bottom feeder market where the you know where everybody lives who’s.

00:38:20.000 --> 00:38:32.000

Jackson Hogen: potential predator on the skiing public. I think they have a high standard, and I think they’re trying to do the best job they can. Some people have no standards and have never tried to do anything well, as near as I can.

00:38:31.000 --> 00:38:39.000

Stuart Winchester: Are there any particularly egregious places that you would avoid sources that you think are just AI?

00:38:39.000 --> 00:38:41.000

Stuart Winchester: Funneling things in.

00:38:40.000 --> 00:38:50.000

Jackson Hogen: I don’t… I… first of all, we’re too small a community to sort of picket each other too much. I think if you’re trying to do it, presumably you’re trying to do it for some reason, um…

00:38:50.000 --> 00:38:52.000

Jackson Hogen: But I would say.

00:38:53.000 --> 00:38:55.000

Jackson Hogen: Do it yourself.

00:38:55.000 --> 00:38:56.000

Jackson Hogen: But…

00:38:56.000 --> 00:39:08.000

Jackson Hogen: be realistic. If you have 3 skis you want to do, you have to try to do them back-to-back-to-back on the same day, ideally. You have to try to minimize the amount of variables that you’re throwing into your own process, and…

00:39:01.000 --> 00:39:02.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

00:39:09.000 --> 00:39:11.000

Jackson Hogen: If you do that.

00:39:11.000 --> 00:39:14.000

Jackson Hogen: You’ll get a result that’s right for you.

00:39:14.000 --> 00:39:29.000

Jackson Hogen: And that’s about all you can hope to do. To ski everything that’s available in a given genre is a Herculean task, and you’ll get lost, I would think, before you get to the end of it.

00:39:27.000 --> 00:39:28.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

00:39:29.000 --> 00:39:48.000

Jackson Hogen: So which brands have you had success with in the past? You can stay with those. Key personalities don’t change much. Head designers have not changed, not at head, but the lead designer hasn’t changed very much from place to place to place. So the ethos of a brand doesn’t change much. Now.

00:39:30.000 --> 00:39:31.000

Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Okay.

00:39:39.000 --> 00:39:40.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

00:39:48.000 --> 00:39:55.000

Jackson Hogen: How that brand goes to market has to be fed into a distribution machine, which can really warp.

00:39:55.000 --> 00:39:57.000

Jackson Hogen: Um…

00:39:57.000 --> 00:40:02.000

Jackson Hogen: the the brand in the sense that well let’s look let’s look ahead to this coming season.

00:40:02.000 --> 00:40:17.000

Jackson Hogen: Prices got up, tariffs got charged, brands tried to swallow as much of the increases that were thrown their way as they possibly could to the point of not to mention all the business plans they had to redo every time Mr. Knucklehead changed the tariff rate.

00:40:18.000 --> 00:40:24.000

Jackson Hogen: wouldn’t hurt to have sensible leadership in the country overall, which we certainly are lacking. Um, but…

00:40:24.000 --> 00:40:26.000

Jackson Hogen: The…

00:40:26.000 --> 00:40:29.000

Jackson Hogen: The end of the day for the to get back to the original question.

00:40:29.000 --> 00:40:34.000

Jackson Hogen: Narrow your field down to three reasonable alternatives.

00:40:34.000 --> 00:40:42.000

Jackson Hogen: Go ski your little heart out on them. One will be better than the other. But realize that whatever ski you get.

00:40:42.000 --> 00:40:57.000

Jackson Hogen: will more than likely not be well tuned. There are exceptions to this, but they are rare, can be mentioned very quickly. You learned how to personalize your base grind, if you can, because that will open up the envelope of performance of whatever ski you end up on.

00:40:57.000 --> 00:41:03.000

Jackson Hogen: So, for example, suppose you decide that you want to get a vocal Mantra M7.

00:41:03.000 --> 00:41:07.000

Jackson Hogen: Great, terrific all-mountain ski, very much one of the best ever made.

00:41:07.000 --> 00:41:16.000

Jackson Hogen: But it’s still a heavy ski, demands to be skiing strong and fast, and the tendency is to try to make it optimize its carving experience.

00:41:16.000 --> 00:41:27.000

Jackson Hogen: But what do you do in bumps, then? How do you take that and then make it optimized for bumps? I’ll tell you how to do it. You optimize it with your base grind, and you create something like my footprint that I like.

00:41:27.000 --> 00:41:43.000

Jackson Hogen: is actually called a thumbprint, which one I’ve elongated. And then my tutor and I have worked on how fine and how wide the the band of the ski that the grinder doesn’t get because it’s outside the it’s the swath.

00:41:43.000 --> 00:42:05.000

Jackson Hogen: That is cutting on the ski, how you treat that little narrow area. Why did I obsess about that? Because if I’m free skiing and I suddenly come around the corner and it’s all bumps, whoopee, well, I don’t stop. So line it up and get going. But you can’t ski a mogul field the same way you ski a groomed run. That ain’t gonna work.

00:42:05.000 --> 00:42:09.000

Jackson Hogen: So, when you’re in those narrow confines, the troughs.

00:42:09.000 --> 00:42:17.000

Jackson Hogen: You need to… you don’t have time to wait for the ski to catch up in the tip, and then you wait it in the middle, and you’re gonna then ride out the tail. That does not happen.

00:42:17.000 --> 00:42:35.000

Jackson Hogen: You gotta get on and off that ski as quickly as you can, because the next little surprise is coming up fast. And you have to be able to push the ski across the fall line. Not far, because you’re only going maybe a foot with it, but you can’t have resistance at that point in time, because it’s gotta happen, and it’s gotta happen right now.

00:42:32.000 --> 00:42:34.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

00:42:35.000 --> 00:42:51.000

Jackson Hogen: So I’m trying to increase the lateral lubricity of the ski. It’s not the objective of the race guide. It’s the objective only of a free skier who says, I want to be able to take it in all terrain and have the ski absolutely not care.

00:42:51.000 --> 00:42:54.000

Jackson Hogen: that I’ve taken it in to all terrain.

00:42:52.000 --> 00:42:53.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

00:42:54.000 --> 00:42:55.000

Jackson Hogen: So…

00:42:55.000 --> 00:43:05.000

Stuart Winchester: So how do we… how do we… that… that… that… it’s a good place to talk about the retail end of it, and shops. So… so I want… I want to ask, first of all, uh…

00:42:55.000 --> 00:42:57.000

Jackson Hogen: Base prep, I would say, is…

00:43:05.000 --> 00:43:07.000

Stuart Winchester: I I.

00:43:07.000 --> 00:43:15.000

Stuart Winchester: none of what you just said makes any sense to me, so how can I take my skis to a tech, which is… which is, I think, what you think most people should do.

00:43:14.000 --> 00:43:16.000

Jackson Hogen: Mm-hmm.

00:43:15.000 --> 00:43:19.000

Stuart Winchester: And what do I tell them? And what does that landscape?

00:43:19.000 --> 00:43:20.000

Jackson Hogen: Okay.

00:43:19.000 --> 00:43:27.000

Stuart Winchester: look like? You said particularly five years have been bad. I don’t know if that landscape scale… it’s a big question, but start small and go big, if you don’t mind.

00:43:26.000 --> 00:43:32.000

Jackson Hogen: Well, okay, for the shop to do that, they need the tool, and the tool costs a lot of money.

00:43:31.000 --> 00:43:33.000

Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.

00:43:32.000 --> 00:43:51.000

Jackson Hogen: And I’m sure Wintersteiger isn’t the only one who’s got these capabilities, and her Montana note does, but I know the Wintersteiger Jupiter machine pretty well as a layman. And if the shop doesn’t have a tool with that degree of versatility, then you’re just talking and nothing’s gonna change.

00:43:50.000 --> 00:43:52.000

Stuart Winchester: And how much does that machine cost?

00:43:51.000 --> 00:43:52.000

Jackson Hogen: Okay.

00:43:52.000 --> 00:43:54.000

Jackson Hogen: Several hundred thousand dollars.

00:43:54.000 --> 00:44:15.000

Jackson Hogen: I don’t know what it is today. And if I if I underpriced them by $100,000, they’ll be angry. If I overpriced them, they’ll be upset as well. So but but it’s it’s a big chunk of change. But, it makes all the difference in the world, not only because there’s some manufacturers that are underfunded by the people that own them, so they don’t do much at the bottom of the ski.

00:44:02.000 --> 00:44:04.000

Stuart Winchester: Several works.

00:44:06.000 --> 00:44:07.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

00:44:15.000 --> 00:44:23.000

Jackson Hogen: right up to the companies that are well-known for how they’ll take care of the base of the ski. But that ability to.

00:44:23.000 --> 00:44:29.000

Jackson Hogen: personalize the Bonsono interface, um, is critical to.

00:44:29.000 --> 00:44:46.000

Jackson Hogen: the… the breadth of… that your ski has for you. In other words, well, today I’ll take my Mogul ski. Well, today I want… every day I want to take the ski that’ll handle all the conditions I’m likely to encounter that day. Um, and I’m kind of a ski junkie, so I probably have a little more than I absolutely need to have.

00:44:40.000 --> 00:44:41.000

Stuart Winchester: Yeah, I think so.

00:44:46.000 --> 00:44:48.000

Jackson Hogen: But, um…

00:44:48.000 --> 00:44:50.000

Jackson Hogen: I think…

00:44:50.000 --> 00:45:05.000

Jackson Hogen: I think you can have, you can, you can have a one ski quiver. It’s realistic to have that. And skis now, unless you mistreat them, will last a pretty long time. Yeah, they’ll, you know, and then you’ll turn around next day and you’ll ski a ski and it’ll break and they’ll say, Jackson, you told me they’d.

00:44:59.000 --> 00:45:00.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

00:45:05.000 --> 00:45:11.000

Jackson Hogen: last forever, and they still are, they can delaminate still, there’s things, bad things that can happen.

00:45:09.000 --> 00:45:11.000

Stuart Winchester: Maybe it’s the driver, not the car, right?

00:45:11.000 --> 00:45:15.000

Jackson Hogen: Yeah, I think bad things can happen to good skis.

00:45:13.000 --> 00:45:15.000

Stuart Winchester: Right.

00:45:15.000 --> 00:45:30.000

Jackson Hogen: But the more you really understand your ski and know it, the better you’ll ski it, and the more enjoyable it’ll be wherever you take it to ski. But I would suggest, given the fact that we’re in this world now, and have been for a long time, with these segmentations according to waist width.

00:45:23.000 --> 00:45:24.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

00:45:30.000 --> 00:45:47.000

Jackson Hogen: A practice I began at Real Skiers about 15 years ago or so. Those delineations have not changed over the course of the last 15 years. So those boundaries, whether the manufacturers adopted me or I just did a good job of anticipating where the market could go.

00:45:47.000 --> 00:45:50.000

Jackson Hogen: But but those.

00:45:50.000 --> 00:45:56.000

Jackson Hogen: I’m doing this because on my test sheet, they’re all in a column, and the next column, and the next column.

00:45:53.000 --> 00:45:56.000

Stuart Winchester: Yeah, right, right.

00:45:57.000 --> 00:46:14.000

Jackson Hogen: the, uh… don’t just be in one column. If you’re… especially if you’re planning to travel and go west. If you’re in east, you should have a narrow ski. There’s no absolutely godforsaken reason you should be on a 106 underfoot. If you’re skiing mostly groomers in the east, you’re just… you’re making life a lot more difficult for yourself.

00:46:08.000 --> 00:46:10.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

00:46:14.000 --> 00:46:16.000

Jackson Hogen: It will eventually…

00:46:17.000 --> 00:46:21.000

Jackson Hogen: affect your technique. You’ll ski worse.

00:46:19.000 --> 00:46:20.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

00:46:21.000 --> 00:46:37.000

Jackson Hogen: Um, so make sure that you have a, a reasonably narrow ski. I would say anything below 90 is a reasonably narrow ski, 90 millimeters underfoot. Um, and then have something that you’re going to take down when Glorioski, you finally get a powder day. Um, and.

00:46:30.000 --> 00:46:31.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

00:46:37.000 --> 00:46:39.000

Jackson Hogen: But that is…

00:46:39.000 --> 00:46:54.000

Jackson Hogen: We all treasure those days. And if you’re on a wider ski, no question that’s easier. But remember, it still needs to be tuned. It still is going to have behavioral quirks that you can best address by taking the ski you got.

00:46:54.000 --> 00:46:55.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

00:46:54.000 --> 00:46:56.000

Jackson Hogen: And then tuning it appropriately.

00:46:56.000 --> 00:47:07.000

Stuart Winchester: So I’m trying to find your columns here, Jackson. I’m on realskiers.com, and people watching on YouTube at Storm Ski Journal on stormskiing.com can see this. How would I find your categories?

00:47:06.000 --> 00:47:09.000

Jackson Hogen: Well, let me — go to Gear Guide.

00:47:08.000 --> 00:47:10.000

Stuart Winchester: Okay.

00:47:09.000 --> 00:47:13.000

Jackson Hogen: And there’s Reid first.

00:47:12.000 --> 00:47:14.000

Stuart Winchester: Yep.

00:47:13.000 --> 00:47:16.000

Jackson Hogen: I would say is a good place to start.

00:47:16.000 --> 00:47:26.000

Jackson Hogen: Um, how to use our reviews? Sure, I mean, this is, this is the way the whole thing’s designed, is to walk you through this. Um, so start with, uh…

00:47:23.000 --> 00:47:24.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

00:47:26.000 --> 00:47:33.000

Jackson Hogen: Read first. I would go boom. I can’t influence your guy. You’ve got the controls.

00:47:28.000 --> 00:47:29.000

Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Okay.

00:47:31.000 --> 00:47:38.000

Stuart Winchester: No, I’m just hitting, uh, ski review… I’m trying to find where you had the columns, because you said all your… yeah.

00:47:35.000 --> 00:47:50.000

Jackson Hogen: Oh, so you can see them. I’ve never put those in front of the skier. They don’t see that piece. That piece is not a piece that goes to the public. It’s what I use in order to… I’ve got one sitting on the top of my desk.

00:47:40.000 --> 00:47:41.000

Stuart Winchester: Okay.

00:47:41.000 --> 00:47:42.000

Stuart Winchester: Okay.

00:47:51.000 --> 00:48:05.000

Jackson Hogen: Um, my desk is markedly clear. Um, yeah, well, there’s… those are… don’t tell you the categories, but those… and that’s by… and that’s… yeah, I’m constantly sort of tinkering in those deals, but they’re… that’s fundamentally the…

00:47:52.000 --> 00:47:54.000

Stuart Winchester: Here’s a card.

00:47:57.000 --> 00:47:58.000

Stuart Winchester: Yes.

00:48:05.000 --> 00:48:11.000

Jackson Hogen: The same stuff. Those are the criteria that I’m testing the ski with.

00:48:06.000 --> 00:48:07.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

00:48:11.000 --> 00:48:20.000

Jackson Hogen: or that I have in my head. Um, and, uh, let’s see, here we are. Here are categories and ascending order of waste width. Oops, you’re just forgetting to do it. So, um…

00:48:12.000 --> 00:48:14.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

00:48:17.000 --> 00:48:19.000

Stuart Winchester: Oh, I see.

00:48:20.000 --> 00:48:23.000

Jackson Hogen: You’ve now moved into…

00:48:23.000 --> 00:48:26.000

Jackson Hogen: Um, it…

00:48:26.000 --> 00:48:41.000

Stuart Winchester: I’ll go to my favorite. So, I tend to be a Blizzard guy. I’m sure you pronounce it Blizzard, but I can’t bring myself to do it. I’ve been on the Rustler 10s for years, anytime there’s new snow, and then I have, like, a 93… I don’t even know what it’s called. I think it.

00:48:41.000 --> 00:48:46.000

Stuart Winchester: that I use on other days, and I really like that as a quiver, but I ski…

00:48:46.000 --> 00:49:02.000

Stuart Winchester: at about 50 different places a year, and in all conditions, and I don’t chase powder, I just… hey, here’s my Midwest trip, it’s on these days. So that’s what I’ve settled into, and I just go with what I know, and they’re really good, responsive skis. But I might be being naive, I mean… I mean, J.

00:49:01.000 --> 00:49:11.000

Jackson Hogen: No, you’re not. I mean, that’s Blizzard. First of all, family owned makes a big, big difference. Technica Group, which owns Blizzard and Nordica, built in the same factory.

00:49:04.000 --> 00:49:05.000

Stuart Winchester: Yeah.

00:49:06.000 --> 00:49:07.000

Stuart Winchester: Okay.

00:49:11.000 --> 00:49:24.000

Jackson Hogen: Um, have the same, uh, Stefano Montegazza, who came over from Voelkel many years ago to lead, uh, design and R&D there. He is a fabulous designer. Um, they…

00:49:16.000 --> 00:49:18.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

00:49:24.000 --> 00:49:40.000

Jackson Hogen: They’re very clever, as is vocal, I think, in how they take their innovations and push them through their line a little bit each year, so there’s always something brand new to talk about while maintaining a very rich.

00:49:40.000 --> 00:49:58.000

Jackson Hogen: construction. And I have, you know, hats off to everybody at Blitzard who I, I, I actually worked in quick anecdote. I worked in that factory for Scott. I was hired by Scott to develop their first line of alpine skis, and they were going to have them built in Mittersall.

00:49:51.000 --> 00:49:52.000

Stuart Winchester: Busy.

00:49:52.000 --> 00:49:53.000

Stuart Winchester: Okay.

00:49:56.000 --> 00:49:57.000

Stuart Winchester: Oh, wow.

00:49:58.000 --> 00:50:03.000

Jackson Hogen: So I went into that factory, um, before, um.

00:50:03.000 --> 00:50:18.000

Jackson Hogen: It got a huge influx of capital when it was purchased by the Technica group, and they basically took everything in the factory that I was had to work in and threw it away, which was a good choice and rebuilt it all from scratch.

00:50:15.000 --> 00:50:17.000

Stuart Winchester: Okay.

00:50:18.000 --> 00:50:34.000

Jackson Hogen: Because the factory that I walked into, every line, every single stage of production had a correction loop that had to go back through to be good enough to go to the next stage. That is, that’s a hell of a way to run a railroad. And they, uh…

00:50:25.000 --> 00:50:27.000

Stuart Winchester: Okay.

00:50:29.000 --> 00:50:30.000

Stuart Winchester: Okay.

00:50:34.000 --> 00:50:50.000

Jackson Hogen: Once the Technica group came in and started building, you know, according to a sane structure, they have very rich structures. They make the most of what they have. Some of it, of course, is a little bit of storytelling. You know, our women’s skis are all made by women for women. Well, that’s…

00:50:50.000 --> 00:51:06.000

Jackson Hogen: It’s as true as it’s ever likely to be. I mean, the head of design for everything at Elan is a woman, so there are women in charge of places, and there are women in charge in places of authority than just around Blizzard.

00:51:06.000 --> 00:51:13.000

Jackson Hogen: But Blizard blends their technical savvy with a very sharp eye to marketing.

00:51:13.000 --> 00:51:19.000

Jackson Hogen: So, uh, a Blazard Black Pearl, probably the most successful ski in the last 10 years.

00:51:19.000 --> 00:51:23.000

Jackson Hogen: In terms of number of units sold.

00:51:23.000 --> 00:51:44.000

Jackson Hogen: Is it entirely a made for women ski? Well, every ski they make in ski informs the next ski they make, no matter who they make it for. So it’s a little overdone in that respect. But they did have all women panels. Leslie Baker Brown, who fueled the whole thing from the top, does a fantastic job. I have 0 negative things to say about.

00:51:30.000 --> 00:51:32.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

00:51:44.000 --> 00:52:03.000

Jackson Hogen: Leslie and her team. But is there a certain amount of marketing hoo-ha involved? Sure, because they’re not going to build all new everything for something which may be no more than a third of their total market sales. You keep as much as you can, and then you figure out, okay, how do I optimize the pieces that I’ve got.

00:51:55.000 --> 00:51:56.000

Stuart Winchester: Yum.

00:52:03.000 --> 00:52:09.000

Jackson Hogen: to meet the intrinsic needs of that audience. And I think Blizzard has done a good job of that, as anybody in the market.

00:52:08.000 --> 00:52:24.000

Stuart Winchester: All right, so you have Blizzard, and they’ve done a good job. And if you go — for the folks watching my screen, OK, there’s a bunch of brands you can choose from in the dropdown. Atomic, Blizzard, Fisher, Head, Castle, Liberty, Nordica, Rosinul, Solomon.

00:52:15.000 --> 00:52:16.000

Jackson Hogen: Go ahead.

00:52:24.000 --> 00:52:39.000

Stuart Winchester: Stokely and Vokely, I’m sure I pronounced half those wrong. Anyway, so it sounds like Bazaar has kept their standards, still family-owned, but you also said there wouldn’t be a lot of optimism in this talk. It’s actually been more upbeat than I thought, but what’s been the fate of some of these legacy brands.

00:52:27.000 --> 00:52:28.000

Jackson Hogen: Thank you.

00:52:39.000 --> 00:52:54.000

Stuart Winchester: as it relates to private equity, and then the impact that’s had on quality? Because you said, for Bolzar, one generation informs the next, informs the next, but are there brands that have just thrown out everything, and they’re just tapping the name on and trying to.

00:52:43.000 --> 00:52:44.000

Jackson Hogen: Oh.

00:52:54.000 --> 00:53:00.000

Stuart Winchester: and, you know, minimize their R&D so they can just sell skis on name until it dies.

00:53:01.000 --> 00:53:07.000

Jackson Hogen: Well, you mentioned private equity, which is an absolute plague, and I’ve never… you could guarantee.

00:53:07.000 --> 00:53:09.000

Jackson Hogen: that they will…

00:53:09.000 --> 00:53:15.000

Jackson Hogen: Misunderstand the market they think they know down to its core, and then we’ll completely f**k it up.

00:53:15.000 --> 00:53:21.000

Jackson Hogen: Sorry kitties out there for the F word, but I mean, when it’s new, when it’s needed, it’s needed.

00:53:20.000 --> 00:53:22.000

Stuart Winchester: So give us examples.

00:53:21.000 --> 00:53:35.000

Jackson Hogen: Well, private equity has destroyed K2. Uh, it’s certainly trying the best it can to destroy Rossignol, but there’s a… there’s a great legacy and some really great people at Rossi. Rossi’s head designer, Tor Verdonk, is brilliant and…

00:53:24.000 --> 00:53:26.000

Stuart Winchester: Okay.

00:53:35.000 --> 00:53:46.000

Jackson Hogen: thoughtful and on his game and constantly trying to improve, um, their product. Um, their race community is as dedicated as anybody’s could be.

00:53:46.000 --> 00:53:53.000

Jackson Hogen: But even there, it’s not the brand it used to be. It’s… it would be… I think it would be better off if the…

00:53:53.000 --> 00:54:15.000

Jackson Hogen: characters that have it sold it. But right now, the ownership is so deeply Chinese, I don’t know that you’ll ever see a change. I mean, a lot of brands that we think of as Austrian or French or whatever are, in fact, Chinese, which isn’t necessarily the end of the world. Chinese have money. They can build a factory if they want to, and they can build great skis if they want to. There’s plenty of templates out there that you could hand them and say, can you build this? And I’m sure they would answer.

00:54:15.000 --> 00:54:20.000

Jackson Hogen: In whatever dialect they have, then yeah, sure, I can, we can do that.

00:54:21.000 --> 00:54:24.000

Jackson Hogen: But private equity usually.

00:54:24.000 --> 00:54:43.000

Jackson Hogen: gets pretty much everything wrong. Um, and they think they’re the biggest smarty pants in the industry. One of the reasons K2’s in a tailspin, and has been for several years, is the private equity owners they had back then missed their window. They had, uh… they all want to flip what they’ve got. But sometimes, if you miss your flip.

00:54:43.000 --> 00:54:55.000

Jackson Hogen: Now how much longer is it going to take you to get that saleable product back up where the value’s higher while your sales are cratering because of the other idiot decisions that you’ve made?

00:54:55.000 --> 00:55:10.000

Jackson Hogen: Where’s Line, for example? Line, I think, was once the fifth largest brand in the US. When standing in line behind K2, because that’s the bigger brand that they can use to promote, I don’t know what they sell, but I’d be surprised if they sold a thousand pairs at this point.

00:55:11.000 --> 00:55:24.000

Jackson Hogen: Just because they’ve gotten no support. Rozignol has sister brands under its roof. Rozzy gets the money, and the sister brand, not so much. So then you’ve got to make a good story out of…

00:55:24.000 --> 00:55:41.000

Jackson Hogen: not very good decisions. And everyone’s good enough to make storytelling and say, why this new ski we made is going to be so great, but the guts have been taken out. And that the guts have been taken out is an important thing to remember, because manufacturers are reaching a point they’d hoped they’d never have to do, which is they.

00:55:41.000 --> 00:55:53.000

Jackson Hogen: got to raise prices next year. They absolutely, positively have to. They can’t eat more tariff, they can’t eat more anything, they have got to raise prices. It’s the only way to go.

00:55:53.000 --> 00:56:04.000

Jackson Hogen: So if you raise prices, but one of the reasons you haven’t been doing that for years is you’re deathly afraid of losing a price point. What do we do without a $3.99 ski? Oh my god, we’re all gonna die!

00:56:04.000 --> 00:56:17.000

Jackson Hogen: Well, you’re cheaping it! That’s what you do. If you insist that you’re going to need, let’s say, the $499 or $599 retail price point, are you going to make as good as $499 or $599 skis you made 5 years ago?

00:56:17.000 --> 00:56:22.000

Jackson Hogen: No, you’re going to make the ski that in today’s marketplace you can price at that and still make money.

00:56:22.000 --> 00:56:30.000

Jackson Hogen: Because they’re deathly afraid of having to make the 20 to 25 to 30% price increases that they probably should make.

00:56:30.000 --> 00:56:51.000

Jackson Hogen: And you say, oh my god, that’ll chase more people out of the skort. There aren’t many people left to chase out of skiing. We’ve already pretty much gotten the middle class and said, you were great in the 50s and 60s, we loved you, but I’m sorry, we need your space now for a richer guy, because you’re not going to buy the quiche we have for lunch instead of a hot dog, and you’re not ready for what we’re about to do.

00:56:51.000 --> 00:57:04.000

Jackson Hogen: charge you for parking. Done you, if you don’t show… if you don’t show up and take your parking space that you’ve prepaid for 50 bucks, they’re gonna charge you another 100 bucks for having defaulted on your, you know, showing up that day.

00:57:04.000 --> 00:57:09.000

Stuart Winchester: Does anyone actually charge that much? I’ve not, uh… usually the price I hear is… who charges that much?

00:57:04.000 --> 00:57:05.000

Jackson Hogen: Yep.

00:57:06.000 --> 00:57:09.000

Jackson Hogen: Yes. Yes.

00:57:09.000 --> 00:57:17.000

Jackson Hogen: Uh, I’ll let… I’ll let you further your next discussion with a guy whose name I gave you before to explain who’s charging that much, but it…

00:57:14.000 --> 00:57:20.000

Stuart Winchester: Okay, so take us into what happened to K2, like…

00:57:17.000 --> 00:57:21.000

Jackson Hogen: They’re making so much money on parking, they could never go back.

00:57:21.000 --> 00:57:34.000

Stuart Winchester: So take us into what happened to K2. I mean, you said that private equity ruined it, kind of let it stagnate. Did they get rid of their talent, like the designers? Is it a quality issue? Is it a personality issue? What happened there?

00:57:34.000 --> 00:57:43.000

Jackson Hogen: you know, the person… people hold… you know, if you’ve got a good job in the ski industry, you try to hold it as long as you can, so I’m sure there’s people there who are saying, no, we.

00:57:38.000 --> 00:57:40.000

Stuart Winchester: Yeah.

00:57:43.000 --> 00:57:44.000

Jackson Hogen: But…

00:57:44.000 --> 00:57:51.000

Jackson Hogen: bad decisions are going to be made. If you think back at… think back to when the pinnacle was introduced.

00:57:51.000 --> 00:58:06.000

Jackson Hogen: they… what did they do to try to say it was great? They put a foam core in it and tried to say, well, this is nanotech. Oh, b******t! You’re just using foam because it’s cheaper. Don’t stop telling me all these advantages that don’t exist. Well, it’s more consistent. Yeah, only if you’re careless about your wood.

00:58:01.000 --> 00:58:02.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

00:58:07.000 --> 00:58:25.000

Jackson Hogen: Uh, it’s certainly different, and it’s definitely cheaper. So… so the… but they had to… so the next year, they had to add more wood, and then they did the same thing with the Mindbenders. They came out and they… let’s… they prototyped everything, and I know from back door that they ended up building the women’s ski, not the men’s ski, as they tested. Why? Because it was gonna be cheaper!

00:58:25.000 --> 00:58:26.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

00:58:26.000 --> 00:58:42.000

Jackson Hogen: It’s it’s you keep making the wrong decisions. And then the way that that brand treated their legacy athletes that built that brand for them, the way they treated their dealer network that built that brand for them is disgraceful. And that’s why I’ve been in the war passing of day two.

00:58:42.000 --> 00:58:44.000

Jackson Hogen: You don’t take someone like Seth.

00:58:42.000 --> 00:58:46.000

Stuart Winchester: Well, no, give us, give us details though, like what, how did they treat them?

00:58:44.000 --> 00:58:54.000

Jackson Hogen: Seth Morrison fired on the phone. Kim Reichel dismissed without further ado. The people that currently own Vocal.

00:58:46.000 --> 00:58:48.000

Stuart Winchester: Okay.

00:58:54.000 --> 00:59:04.000

Jackson Hogen: Uh, a terrific brand with great management, brilliant distribution, well-thought-out plan, widely distributed despite its elite, you know, status.

00:59:05.000 --> 00:59:06.000

Jackson Hogen: Um…

00:59:07.000 --> 00:59:19.000

Jackson Hogen: They they fired everybody. They fired everybody in five minutes. People with 20 years experience fired after a five minute interview by some a*****e who’s come in and told them that we need to solidify our distribution.

00:59:10.000 --> 00:59:11.000

Stuart Winchester: No.

00:59:19.000 --> 00:59:36.000

Jackson Hogen: I don’t care what that looks like on your business plan, I know what it looks like on the personal level, and it sucks. And was it necessary for them to do that? No, it’s what their logic told them they had to do, because they didn’t have a unified back room, they were… it was, you know, in more than one place, so the smart thing to do is to put it all together in a room.

00:59:23.000 --> 00:59:25.000

Stuart Winchester: Yeah.

00:59:36.000 --> 00:59:39.000

Jackson Hogen: Smart thing to do, except you fired all the people that built your brand.

00:59:40.000 --> 00:59:43.000

Jackson Hogen: I don’t care if you think that’s smart. I think it’s evil.

00:59:43.000 --> 00:59:49.000

Stuart Winchester: And then the retailer network, what was… how did they damage those relationships?

00:59:43.000 --> 00:59:45.000

Jackson Hogen: Okay.

00:59:49.000 --> 00:59:58.000

Jackson Hogen: Badly, they pissed on them. I mean, K2 went, sold as much, every stick that they can sell direct outside their dealer network is a win for them.

00:59:57.000 --> 00:59:58.000

Stuart Winchester: I see.

00:59:59.000 --> 01:00:03.000

Jackson Hogen: So my response to that is, okay, which one of these would you like?

01:00:03.000 --> 01:00:05.000

Stuart Winchester: This is where video is great, guys.

01:00:06.000 --> 01:00:12.000

Stuart Winchester: All right, so K2, are there other brands that have…

01:00:07.000 --> 01:00:08.000

Jackson Hogen: So…

01:00:12.000 --> 01:00:14.000

Stuart Winchester: Ben…

01:00:14.000 --> 01:00:19.000

Stuart Winchester: turned into shells of themselves by private equity or other market forces.

01:00:17.000 --> 01:00:24.000

Jackson Hogen: No, because it’s possible to right the ship. I mean, when Ontosports bought almost all of…

01:00:24.000 --> 01:00:36.000

Jackson Hogen: Solomon and Atomic and Armada, etc. Everyone was right to be somewhat fearful and trembling. Is this… what’s this gonna do to those brands? Lo and behold, they might…

01:00:27.000 --> 01:00:28.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

01:00:36.000 --> 01:00:44.000

Jackson Hogen: I mean, I don’t… I’m not privy to what’s going on in their back room. I’m not… I don’t have telescopes to tell me, you know, if I look close enough.

01:00:44.000 --> 01:00:50.000

Jackson Hogen: But they seem to be more interested in reinvestment.

01:00:50.000 --> 01:00:55.000

Jackson Hogen: than the Chinese people who are involved with K2.

01:00:55.000 --> 01:00:58.000

Jackson Hogen: And I would expect we’re going to see.

01:00:58.000 --> 01:01:15.000

Jackson Hogen: continued innovation from that group, from Atomic Solomon Armada, which I think is being managed well. They, you know, they… if you don’t expect every brand to do everything, they’ve really slotted those brands well. I think, for example.

01:01:15.000 --> 01:01:25.000

Jackson Hogen: Atomic makes unbelievably good race skis. Mikel Schifrin ain’t winning on junk. They know how to build a race ski that absolutely sings. Um…

01:01:20.000 --> 01:01:21.000

Stuart Winchester: Yeah.

01:01:25.000 --> 01:01:35.000

Jackson Hogen: And they’ve… they’re still doing that. They’re not… they’re not cheapening that product one iota. And that… when that comes to the U.S. consumer as a race ski, it has not been degraded.

01:01:35.000 --> 01:01:43.000

Jackson Hogen: But when you move through into the Maverick series, now we’re starting to make choices about the skis that are going to be more economically driven.

01:01:43.000 --> 01:01:50.000

Jackson Hogen: But I think what they did very cleverly is they made, we’ll make a little better all-mountain ski, we’ll slot it into Armada.

01:01:51.000 --> 01:02:05.000

Jackson Hogen: And Armada’s gonna make… and the market will find it, and we’ll make our higher-end, better-performing skis for the all-mountain skier, and slot them into Armada. And then we’re gonna race skis over here on Atomic. Um, you know, they’re…

01:02:05.000 --> 01:02:22.000

Jackson Hogen: They’re figuring out their new brand, I think, well. And I think they’ll sort it through. Everyone else, you’ve got to just be a little nervous about. There’s so many good people at Rosignol who have probably been ignored or pushed aside. I don’t really know what’s going to happen.

01:02:19.000 --> 01:02:21.000

Stuart Winchester: Yeah, I think so.

01:02:22.000 --> 01:02:23.000

Jackson Hogen: Um…

01:02:24.000 --> 01:02:34.000

Jackson Hogen: Because it didn’t fit the ethos of the bandits that ended up owning them. Who, again, they probably missed their flip, but at least…

01:02:34.000 --> 01:02:42.000

Jackson Hogen: at least there’s enough really good people and really solid people at Rossi that what they can preserve, they have preserved, but it’s not across the board.

01:02:42.000 --> 01:02:44.000

Jackson Hogen: Um…

01:02:44.000 --> 01:02:49.000

Jackson Hogen: And the pressure on the manufacturer to keep price points.

01:02:49.000 --> 01:03:04.000

Jackson Hogen: is gonna have to give in one way or another. Either the price point moves up, and where’s my $4.99 price point? Well, sorry to tell you, buddy, but that’s now the $5.99 ski. Or, you have to degrade the $4.99 ski. You have to take something out to hit that… to make that even…

01:03:04.000 --> 01:03:07.000

Jackson Hogen: Make it any point in making the bloody ski.

01:03:06.000 --> 01:03:08.000

Stuart Winchester: Right.

01:03:07.000 --> 01:03:14.000

Jackson Hogen: So that pressure, the better decision may not always be made in that context.

01:03:12.000 --> 01:03:19.000

Stuart Winchester: So we’re talking about the big legacy brands. What’s your take, Jackson, on… we saw Peak Skis, which was Bodie Miller’s.

01:03:19.000 --> 01:03:24.000

Jackson Hogen: A joke. A tragically stupid joke. I mean, the arrogance of that guy.

01:03:19.000 --> 01:03:22.000

Stuart Winchester: Brand, go under…

01:03:24.000 --> 01:03:26.000

Jackson Hogen: And where do you think he’s left?

01:03:24.000 --> 01:03:32.000

Stuart Winchester: So that’s Peak. There’s a lot of little independent brands, like Shaggy’s in Michigan, Icelantic in Colorado. Do you…

01:03:31.000 --> 01:0…

Who

Josh Bean, General Manager of Lee Canyon, Nevada

Date Recorded

Oct. 20, 2026

About Lee Canyon

Owned by: Mountain Capital Partners, which also owns:

Year founded: 1965

Pass affiliations:

* Power Pass: unlimited

* Power Pass Select: 12 shared days with Arizona Snowbowl, Purgatory – holiday blackouts apply

* Power Pass Core: 4 shared days with Arizona Snowbowl, Purgatory, Brian Head – holiday blackouts apply

Base elevation: 8,510 feet

Summit elevation: 9,370 feet lift-served | 11,289 feet hike-to

Vertical drop: 860 feet lift-served | 2,779 feet hike-to

Skiable acres: 235

Average annual snowfall: 161 inches

Lift count: 7 (4 fixed-grip quads, 1 triple, 1 ropetow, 1 carpet)

In my conversation with Josh, I noted that Lee Canyon’s chairlifts were all built this century, a rare circumstance for an American ski area. That’s true, with an asterisk - the Sherwood triple arrived used at Lee Canyon in 2005, from then-sister resort Alpine Meadows (both were then owned by Powdr; Alpine Meadows is now part of Alterra’s Palisades Tahoe complex). If we include the machine’s dozen years in California (and we must), the Sherwood clocks in as Lee Canyon’s elder, at a still-not-so-old-for-a-fixed-grip-triple 33 years (I’m also not 100 percent certain that this is only the lift’s second life, as it may have been relocated to Alpine in 1993):

Why I interviewed him

Just three years after completing the intermediate-oriented Ponderosa expansion, Lee Canyon is adding the long-planned West Bowl pod looker’s right of Bluebird:

The new Skytrac fixed-grip quad serving the terrain will rise about the same number of feet as neighboring Bluebird and Sherwood, but will land a bit higher, finally edging Lee Canyon close to a four-digit vertical drop. Skiable acreage jumps from a modest 195 to a still-modest 235, though Lee Canyon has always lowballed its terrain footprint.

But owner Mountain Capital Partners (MCP) may just be pouring concrete for the mansion they want to build above. Well, the mansion is already built, Lee Canyon just needs an elevator to access the nearly 2,000 vertical feet of steep alpine bowls towering above the lifts. It could be America’s Kicking Horse or Revelstoke, a community bump promoted to international freeride destination, with the addition of a single megalift. Here’s Lee Canyon today, as shown on Google Earth, (which has not yet added the trails cut for West Bowl) - future lifts could run as high as the top of Lee Peak (Charleston Peak, rising in the distance, is the highest point in the county, and is not on anyone’s ski area plans):

The basic ingredients for mega-expansion - someone to build it and someone to ski it -are all there. Meaning we have an operator who would be happy to spend unreasonable sums of money to build an unimaginably awesome ski experience for the enormous numbers of skiers who already live nearby or could easily get there via Vegas’ gigantic airport. Lee Canyon sits close enough to Las Vegas that the Grinch could ride his fucked-up dog-deer sled from the top of Lee Peak to The Strip and loot enough cheer to cancel Christmas for a century. And MCP would like nothing more than its very own Snowbird or Jackson Hole (besides the one they already have in South America), to make their Power Pass go KaBoom. Resort officials have already begun talks with the U.S. Forest Service on a master development plan update that would sanction Lee Canyon’s transformation into Super Lee Canyon.

Of course this is America, not Canada, so instead of rapidly building Revelstoke or Kicking Horse on the site of its small ski hill, MCP is likely on a collision course with a righteous mob of pinecone enthusiasts, guardians of various species of endangered pebbles, astrologists and oil painters who need viewshed integrity to practice their craft, and like five cranky a******s whose idea of a fun ski day is hiking uphill for several hours wearing 50 pounds of gear for one powder run that they’d rather not share with all the dorks who like riding machines uphill. It woud be rad if I’m wrong and the USFS just says “wow this looks awesome” and everyone else says “it would probably be smart to maximize opportunities for organized, mechanized outdoor recreation in this three-million-person car-dependent s**t-sprawl of American gaudiness so we have something on the fun-stuff-to-do spectrum that sits between Going Shopping and Getting Lost in the Desert,” but the more likely outcome is that we collectively f**k this up and fight about it for 25 years and in the end nothing happens at all.

Transcripts

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Stuart Winchester: I’ll introduce you, and we’ll get into it. My guest today is the general manager of Lee Canyon, Nevada. Lee Canyon offers seven lifts on an 860-foot vertical drop.

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Stuart Winchester: The Mountain is one of 13 ski areas operated by Mountain Capital Partners in the United States and Chile.

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Stuart Winchester: He started as a summer worker in 1994, and has been with the mountain, with a few little breaks, went up to Park City ever since. Josh Bean joins us. Josh, welcome to the Storm. So awesome to have you. I have to say right off, Lee Canyon, I think, is one of the most.

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Stuart Winchester: beautiful ski areas in America, and I can’t imagine how cool it must be to look out your window and see that every single day.

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Josh Bean: No, it’s, uh, definitely an island.

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Josh Bean: the desert. So fun to drive up to every morning to get out of that desert floor and come up to 8,600 feet. Not a lot of people get to do that every day. So definitely a great place to work and a fun environment to be in.

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Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Okay.

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Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.

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Stuart Winchester: Yeah, I can’t overstate…

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Stuart Winchester: I think part of the reason I was so surprised is how close it is to Las Vegas. I came straight from the airport. The airport there is kind of a stinker. The bus took forever. Maybe I just had bad luck, or maybe it’s always like that to get to my rental car, but once I was in the car.

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Stuart Winchester: I don’t know, maybe I think it took a half hour, maybe a little more or less from the airport.

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Josh Bean: Yeah, it’s about 35 minutes from, uh, downtown Las Vegas, the Strip. Um, you know, our freeway systems are catching up, so it’s a… the travel’s easy to get up here, and you know, once you get outside of the city, you know, it’s a free-flowing highway right up to us, and.

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Josh Bean: Um, kind of a neat, uh, drive up here. You… you pass through, um…

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Josh Bean: it’s 6 different climate zones, so it’s the same as driving from Mexico to Canada in 16 miles. So, uh, a unique drive as well.

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Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

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Stuart Winchester: Oh, wow.

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Stuart Winchester: It’s incredible. I just… everyone that looks at… I think Lee Canyon probably gets overlooked because of the small vertical. There’s obviously a lot more above the lifts, and we can talk about that in a bit, but do you find that folks.

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Stuart Winchester: once they get out there, they’re like, oh, wow. You know, it doesn’t have the stats, but it has that big mountain feel just because of what’s going on all around you at the end of that canyon.

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Josh Bean: Yeah, I think people, uh, come up and they’re a little awestruck at, you know, it’s like a mini version of the Alps, uh, just…

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Stuart Winchester: Yeah.

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Josh Bean: you know, protruding out of the desert floor, and, you know, it’s a very picturesque environment, and if you come here right after a storm, I think, you know, our off-piste stuff is something to be reckoned with on all the West Coast.

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Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.

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Josh Bean: Um, I know that…

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Josh Bean: Two of my top five days have been right here in a 160-foot vertical of just…

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Josh Bean: amazing powder that we get on those great years. And, you know, with El Nino looking like it is this year, we’re really.

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Josh Bean: for one of those seasons.

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Stuart Winchester: Yeah, 860 can ski plenty, and that’s a good enough pod. Let’s talk here, Josh, and for those watching on YouTube at Storm Ski Journal or on StormSkiing.com, this is Lee Canyon’s current trail map, and again, it’s a… the trail map doesn’t really do it justice, because above the lifts is, like, 2,000 feet of vertical. Again, we’ll get to that in a moment.

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Stuart Winchester: What I want to talk about first is this is last year’s trail map. If you have this year’s out, I’ve missed it, because you’re doing an expansion, the West Bowl expansion over here.

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Stuart Winchester: So let me bring that up and then Josh, you just tell us all about what you’ve been working on all summer. I mean, Lee Canyon just did an expansion. This Ponderosa expansion was new just a few years ago and now you’re doing another one. So just tell us about this. What’s going on? What, what kind, what kind of terrain are we getting?

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Stuart Winchester: Tell us about the lift, the vertical, everything.

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Josh Bean: So, yeah, it’s gonna take us closer to 1,000 foot vertical total. Um, it rises about 140 feet above, uh, the Ponder, or, uh, Bluebird lift.

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Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

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Josh Bean: Uh, when we put in the…

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Stuart Winchester: Oh, nice.

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Josh Bean: Ponderosa pod, you know, that was to kind of cater to our beginner to intermediate skier. This is kind of a true, um…

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Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

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Josh Bean: blue and, uh, black diamond ski pod. So, you know, really going after that… that enthusiastic skier that’s been wanting to see something different at Lee Canyon for years.

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Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

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Josh Bean: You know, for me, this pot of skiing is going to make this place ski so much bigger than it does right now.

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Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

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Josh Bean: And give everybody a chance to kind of get out there, um, and separate themselves from, you know, that beginner traffic, and really get some excellent skiing days in.

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Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

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Stuart Winchester: Is this pod gonna have snowmaking right away? What’s the extent of your snowmaking right now?

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Josh Bean: So, yeah, this pod’s gonna come in with, uh, two of the main trails, uh, with snowmaking this year. Uh, we’re actually putting pipe in the ground today as we speak, so we’re working on the snowmaking.

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Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.

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Josh Bean: We’re pulling sand lines for the lift cable as we speak, and uh…

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Josh Bean: lift terminals are going in on tomorrow morning. So we’re getting close to seeing the finish line here.

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Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.

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Stuart Winchester: Wow.

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Josh Bean: We’re back ahead of schedule, so I think we’ll be skiing by December out there.

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Stuart Winchester: Man, you’re, uh, you really squeezed me in. I appreciate that, Josh, with so much going on out there. Do you have names for the trails yet?

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Josh Bean: Yeah, so the far skiers ride… we have 3 of the main trails done.

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Josh Bean: So we have, uh…

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Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

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Josh Bean: We are affectionately calling Wild West Bowl as the chair name. And we’re going to have Gunslinger out to the right, Double Barrel under the left, and then Rifleman for our skiers left.

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Josh Bean: Um, and Double Barrel being a black diamond run, and the other two being, uh, true blues.

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Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

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Stuart Winchester: Nice. How are the glades in here? Are these, uh, these sections skiable?

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Josh Bean: They’re gonna be skiable, um, we haven’t gone in there and done a ton of work yet, uh.

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Stuart Winchester: If you get snow.

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Josh Bean: Um, as we’ve kind of just been really focused on getting those three main runs done for this year, and weather permitting, we’ll get in there and do some glading. But it’s all skiable terrain that, uh, we’ve been skiing for years.

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Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

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Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

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Josh Bean: And to have lift access up into there is just gonna be phenomenal for the public and the community.

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Stuart Winchester: Yeah, I’ve not been in the trees a lot at Lee Canyon, so I… what I love about skiing the West Coast, California, Oregon, Washington, when you get into the trees that are really wide open, and of course they get hundreds of inches of snow, so it buries it. What’s your…

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Stuart Winchester: undergrowth look like? Because I’m in the east, and so the gla… if you don’t do glading, it’s just impossible to get in there. But is it possible?

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Josh Bean: Hi, Andrew.

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Josh Bean: Yeah, it’s different.

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Josh Bean: definitely, uh, it’s skiable. Our undergrowth isn’t bad. Um, like I said, we’ve been skiing this for years. There’s some ravines and gullies in there that are just phenomenal.

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Stuart Winchester: What’s it look like in there?

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Stuart Winchester: Yep.

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Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

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Josh Bean: And, you know, as we get in there and glade that, it’s just gonna, you know, enhance that experience.

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Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

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Josh Bean: But for right now, we’re just totally focused on trying to get those main runs done.

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Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm. So you went with another fixed-grip quad. You have all fixed-grip lifts at Lee Canyon. Again, not a ton of vertical. They’re good, solid lifts. Uh, is there… has there been demand.

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Stuart Winchester: For that, or given the size of the hill, are people generally just indifferent?

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Josh Bean: Um, you know, I think that there’s some demand for it in the future, but right now, you know, with the links of these lifts, that grip cycle, people don’t really understand that, you know, lifts might be down for, you know.

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Josh Bean: more rapid NDTs of grips on detaches. And when you have these shorter runs, you know, the fixed grip just fits our profile much better than going to detaches.

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Stuart Winchester: So, looking now at…

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Stuart Winchester: Let me just bring up Lyft Blog here. Looking now at your Lyft fleet, so this is LyftBlog.com, this is my go-to site for Lyft information. Peter does a great job. So, looking at your current Lyft fleet, I mean, this is one of the newest in the country. If you have all twos in front of your install years.

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Stuart Winchester: you’re in really good shape. Josh, I mentioned you’ve been there since the 90s. Can you just talk to us about what it’s been like to watch the transformation from a bunch of hall double chairs.

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Stuart Winchester: to all modern lifts at this place that was, you know, kind of out of the way, tucked into the end of the canyon, but is slowly, as, you know, Powder buys it, and then Mountain Capital Partners buys it, is slowly modernizing and becoming.

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Stuart Winchester: a great urban ski area for a very fast-growing population.

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Josh Bean: Yeah, what it’s done for us is take away the lift line. You’re hard pressed to come up here even on a capacity day and have to spend more than five to 10 minutes in a lift line. Our uphill capacity is great.

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Stuart Winchester: Okay.

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Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

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Josh Bean: We also use our dynamic pricing to try to, you know, make sure that people are comfortable when they come here. We try not to overpack it.

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Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

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Josh Bean: So it’s definitely been fun to see.

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Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Okay.

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Josh Bean: Um, and then seeing somebody that, you know, hasn’t been here for years and just show up and look at this place and the transformation that’s undergone, uh, it’s so fun to see their face when they show up, and they’re like, oh, this is a… this is a real ski area right outside of Las Vegas.

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Josh Bean: And when you’re, you know, catering to, you know, close to 3 million people, right, right at your doorstep, you know, it’s given us the ability to convert a lot of, uh, never-evers and a lifelong, uh, ski and snowboard enthusiasts.

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Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Casey J: Yeah.

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Stuart Winchester: Did you start skiing or snowboarding at Lee Canyon? Was that your home mountain?

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Josh Bean: Yeah, it was my home mountain. I actually grew up, uh, just down the road. My grandparents had a house here in Lee Canyon, and grandpa had a little rope tow outside of the house, so that’s probably where I got my first turns, but definitely can find some old, uh, funny pictures of me roaming around here.

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Stuart Winchester: No kidding.

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Josh Bean: Uh, as a little kid on wood skis, and…

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Josh Bean: Learned to ski on Rabbit Peak.

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Stuart Winchester: What was… can you just try to describe Bleak Canyon for us through your child’s eyes, and then, uh, as a kid working there in the 90s, I mean, it’s just so fascinating to think about…

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Stuart Winchester: What it is and what it was.

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Josh Bean: You know, it’s always been kind of that little skier that could to me. You know, it’s always been a lot of fun to be at. It has a very home-like feel. You know, some dedicated locals for sure that have been skiing here their whole lives as well.

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Stuart Winchester: Yeah.

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Josh Bean: I mean, I think of families like the Zavalas that have been up here for years that are, you know, just…

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Josh Bean: Dedicated to this mountain, uh…

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Josh Bean: That you… you make friends here, and learn to ski here, uh…

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Josh Bean: Uh, and then take that to, to other, other.

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Josh Bean: mountains like Brian had and enjoy what you’ve learned at Lee Canyon and take it elsewhere, but it also is such a fun place to ski.

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Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.

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Josh Bean: Or your… your black diamond skier that wants to get out and get off-piste, and like you said, you know, having 2,000 feet above us, that is some of the best skiing on the West Coast, and I’ll argue that with all the Mammoth guys every day.

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Josh Bean: We seem to get a lift up there to access it.

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Stuart Winchester: So let’s talk about that, because I’ve had this conversation with James Coleman, and…

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Stuart Winchester: I know he wants to go big.

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Stuart Winchester: I don’t believe it’s in your MDP, correct me if I’m wrong.

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Stuart Winchester: Uh, but tell us about that terrain, uh, what’s up there, and what sort of machine you would need to access that terrain.

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Josh Bean: Um, so we are in the process of, uh, we have another MVP submitted right now to go further and bigger, um, and that’s going through the approval process with the Forest Service currently.

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Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

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Josh Bean: Um, looking at, uh, all kinds of different versions of trim versus, uh.

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Josh Bean: detached six-pack to get to the ridge, and some other offerings within the permit area to spread out.

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Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

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Josh Bean: towards the Foxtel Ridge area, which is, when you say gladed skiing, that’s the epitome of West Coast gladed skiing out there on the Foxtel side of things.

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Josh Bean: Then up above is, uh, yeah, looking at possible tramways, or, um.

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Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

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Josh Bean: detached to get to the ridge above the Dolomite side as well.

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Stuart Winchester: That would be just incredible. So the terrain up there.

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Stuart Winchester: I got a look at it, but I didn’t get up there. The closest thing I would compare it to that I’ve seen is maybe the Height 2 stuff up at the top at Bridger Bowl. I’m not sure if you’ve been up there.

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Stuart Winchester: Or maybe some of the.

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Stuart Winchester: steeper stuff at Jackson, but what… how would you…

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Stuart Winchester: Is the terrain all that gnarly? How would you describe it? Is there anything you can compare it to that the listeners might be familiar with?

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Josh Bean: Yeah, I think you’re kind of spot on with both your analogies there.

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Josh Bean: Um, you know, the…

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Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

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Josh Bean: The dolomite side, I would compare it to almost a Palisades-like terrain with three prominent main chutes coming down that are all skibble without mandatories.

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Josh Bean: And then you get into that cirque off the peak that’s kind of.

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Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

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Josh Bean: Find a Cliffy, and pick your way through, uh…

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Josh Bean: a little bit more adventurous, more mountaineer-type skiing. Um, and then you have West Bowl that I think skis a lot like Bridger, like you’re… you’re explaining, you know, nice, steep, open terrain.

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Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.

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Stuart Winchester: Yeah, it’s, uh… here, I wanna just…

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Stuart Winchester: I’ll share a picture here to help folks see.

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Stuart Winchester: what we’re talking about, and… so, see, you know, you’re riding up the lift, and it’s a modest little lift, and I believe that this is, uh, chair 2.

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Stuart Winchester: And you just see all this above. So are we looking at any part of it where that lift would go?

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Josh Bean: You know, right now, we’re looking at different locations, but definitely trying to access that peak in the West Bowl area where your cursor’s at.

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Josh Bean: And then out to the left, um, we have an area called Three Springs, um, that is…

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Stuart Winchester: Okay.

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Josh Bean: Just phenomenal terrain that we’re trying to get a lift up to as well in the future.

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Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

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Stuart Winchester: Yeah, this over here doesn’t look, uh, for mortals, but… but this looks like… is there, uh… is there a scenario in which there’s anything less than an expert way down, or is this kind of the…

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Stuart Winchester: You know, you better be ready when you go up kind of terrain and people have to self sort.

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Josh Bean: I think that we’re… we’re looking at two different options there, and trying to figure out if we can have an access road, or things like a cat track to get you off.

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Stuart Winchester: Yeah.

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Josh Bean: Um, of the Dolomite, uh, Three Springs area. But, yeah, that… that… those peak runs, you know, that’s gonna be…

00:21:32.000 --> 00:21:34.000

Josh Bean: You know, a know-before-you-go zone, and.

00:21:35.000 --> 00:21:37.000

Stuart Winchester: Yeah.

00:21:36.000 --> 00:21:39.000

Josh Bean: Nonetheless, you know, that’s kind of a.

00:21:39.000 --> 00:21:51.000

Josh Bean: not telling the whole story. That area fills in quite a bit, too. That was a springtime picture that we’re showing, and when those shoots are filled in, you know, it looks a little different than that picture tells the story, but…

00:21:46.000 --> 00:21:48.000

Stuart Winchester: Yeah, it was in May.

00:21:49.000 --> 00:21:51.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

00:21:52.000 --> 00:21:59.000

Josh Bean: Yeah, it can get a little dicey up there from time to time, but nonetheless, really fun skiing.

00:22:00.000 --> 00:22:08.000

Stuart Winchester: So, Josh, you know, again, you’ve been there three decades. Is Lee Canyon primarily still…

00:22:08.000 --> 00:22:10.000

Stuart Winchester: A locals mountain.

00:22:10.000 --> 00:22:15.000

Stuart Winchester: for Las Vegas, and do you think that if you went up, that that would change?

00:22:14.000 --> 00:22:34.000

Josh Bean: Yeah, I think it’s already changing, you know, with Vegas growing the way it has, and uh… that drive for outdoor recreation that, you know, Red Rock, Lake Mead, and, you know, being an international airport, that we’re seeing a lot more outdoor enthusiasts coming up here, you know, we’re seeing more of a Dawn Patrol-type atmosphere.

00:22:18.000 --> 00:22:19.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

00:22:35.000 --> 00:22:37.000

Stuart Winchester: Hmm. Okay.

00:22:36.000 --> 00:22:46.000

Josh Bean: pretty big groups of individuals going up and skinning and getting to that terrain already. I’d like to say that, you know.

00:22:42.000 --> 00:22:43.000

Stuart Winchester: Yeah, here.

00:22:47.000 --> 00:22:57.000

Josh Bean: We are a destination mountain to some already, but we’re primarily probably 60-40 locals to tourists. We see a huge influx from.

00:22:56.000 --> 00:22:58.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

00:22:58.000 --> 00:23:06.000

Josh Bean: Hawaii and Brazil, people that have never seen snow coming up and wanting to learn to ski.

00:23:06.000 --> 00:23:07.000

Stuart Winchester: Yeah.

00:23:06.000 --> 00:23:10.000

Josh Bean: But we’re also seeing, you know, that…

00:23:10.000 --> 00:23:12.000

Josh Bean: you know.

00:23:12.000 --> 00:23:25.000

Josh Bean: different type of skier coming out of Colorado and Utah that are moving to Vegas for job opportunities, and the tech boom that we’re seeing in Las Vegas is bringing a lot… a lot more, uh, of that type of behavior to the mountain.

00:23:27.000 --> 00:23:33.000

Stuart Winchester: Is there a way to get there from Vegas without a car? Do you run any shuttles, or is there any bus or anything?

00:23:31.000 --> 00:23:47.000

Josh Bean: We’re working on a shuttling service, uh, right now for this season. Uh, we have some different options on the table of, you know, uh, using some visitor centers on the other side of the mountain, and possibly, uh, the hotel on the other side as well for some park and ride situations.

00:23:35.000 --> 00:23:36.000

Stuart Winchester: Okay. Yeah.

00:23:47.000 --> 00:23:49.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

00:23:49.000 --> 00:23:55.000

Josh Bean: And then also talking with Uber and Lyft to try to get some dedicated cars that are going to come up here.

00:23:55.000 --> 00:24:05.000

Josh Bean: And then also, beginning the process of talking with the city area transit, and trying to get them to come up as well, and run a couple bus services out of Vegas.

00:24:07.000 --> 00:24:12.000

Stuart Winchester: Yeah, like you said, the drive was super easy. I don’t know…

00:24:12.000 --> 00:24:20.000

Stuart Winchester: how dicey that access road gets? I mean, it was very scenic and windy. Is that generally pretty tamed? Do your local guys do a good job with that?

00:24:18.000 --> 00:24:22.000

Josh Bean: Yeah, our local guys, uh, INDOT does a great job for us, um…

00:24:23.000 --> 00:24:31.000

Josh Bean: We also are very blessed that, uh, you know, we ski in the sun a lot up here. Um, you know, our storm systems come through.

00:24:23.000 --> 00:24:25.000

Stuart Winchester: Yeah.

00:24:30.000 --> 00:24:32.000

Stuart Winchester: Yeah.

00:24:31.000 --> 00:24:38.000

Josh Bean: And they’re quick and furious, so I always tell people to check, you know, our website.

00:24:38.000 --> 00:24:48.000

Josh Bean: We link to the NDOT notifications right off of there, so if it looks like we’re getting a storm, you know, you would definitely want to check, because it is a mountain road, and.

00:24:44.000 --> 00:24:46.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

00:24:48.000 --> 00:25:00.000

Josh Bean: you know, we see a lot of traffic out of Vegas that have never driven in snow before, um, so having their chains in the car and being prepared for anything is always a good recommendation.

00:24:55.000 --> 00:24:56.000

Stuart Winchester: Oh, really?

00:24:59.000 --> 00:25:00.000

Stuart Winchester: Yeah.

00:25:02.000 --> 00:25:19.000

Stuart Winchester: So you said it’s changing a little bit as far as the type of skier. MCP does have their own Mountain Capital Partners, the operator of Lee Canyon, has its own pass, the Power Pass. And so for listeners not familiar with that, it’s essentially their version of the Epic Pass, and it’s all of their mountains.

00:25:19.000 --> 00:25:35.000

Stuart Winchester: Plus, a couple of partners, like Sundance and, uh, and, uh, Monarch and Loveland. So, uh, do you get people from, I don’t know, Phoenix, maybe Southwest Colorado, because it’s drivable and it’s a novelty and something different?

00:25:33.000 --> 00:25:36.000

Josh Bean: Yeah, we see a little bit of that, um…

00:25:36.000 --> 00:25:46.000

Josh Bean: You know, we try to not market it as a novelty thing, because to us, you know, it is a phenomenal ski area in itself, so we’re hoping people are coming for that.

00:25:46.000 --> 00:25:47.000

Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.

00:25:46.000 --> 00:25:59.000

Josh Bean: but where else can you go have the Vegas nightlife, and then wake up in the morning, come up and have a powder day? I mean, there is some novelty to that, so we don’t ignore that, um, and we do cater to those people.

00:25:58.000 --> 00:26:00.000

Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.

00:25:59.000 --> 00:26:17.000

Josh Bean: But yeah, pushing that Phoenix crowd and trying to bring up the college students out of Flagstaff to take advantage of that power pass. And then as well as us trying to push our locals to venture out and go see purgatory and ski out in Colorado.

00:26:17.000 --> 00:26:18.000

Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.

00:26:17.000 --> 00:26:27.000

Josh Bean: And, you know, check out Brian Head on their way. You can do a full Southwest Loop, hit 6 different ski areas, and have a nice little trip for yourself, you know.

00:26:19.000 --> 00:26:20.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

00:26:25.000 --> 00:26:26.000

Stuart Winchester: Yeah.

00:26:27.000 --> 00:26:33.000

Josh Bean: In January, when those guys are, you know, seeing that El Nino flow coming their way.

00:26:35.000 --> 00:26:48.000

Stuart Winchester: Yeah, I don’t want listeners to get me wrong, I… when I say novelty, it’s… Lee Canyon’s a… you… it’s a serious alpine ski area, and it… it really feels like you’re up there, and I… I guess the reason I framed it that way is it…

00:26:48.000 --> 00:26:54.000

Stuart Winchester: It just was so much better than what I expected, given, you know.

00:26:54.000 --> 00:27:01.000

Stuart Winchester: my experience with, uh, urban adjacency areas. So, uh, definitely worth a run up there. So, if… if you’re… as you put this…

00:27:01.000 --> 00:27:09.000

Stuart Winchester: Just master development plan. I don’t know if it’s a whole new plan or an amendment through. What’s your vibe, Josh, on?

00:27:09.000 --> 00:27:17.000

Stuart Winchester: Forest Service’s openness to putting a lift up there, the local community, and potential, uh…

00:27:17.000 --> 00:27:21.000

Stuart Winchester: Uh, opposition to putting a lift up in that area.

00:27:20.000 --> 00:27:29.000

Josh Bean: Um, you know, right now, we’re just beginning, kind of, that scoping phase, and started to take the temperature on that, um, so I don’t want to speak too much to it, but, um…

00:27:25.000 --> 00:27:27.000

Stuart Winchester: Yeah.

00:27:29.000 --> 00:27:43.000

Josh Bean: I don’t think we’re going to see a lot of opposition. People are excited about growth and the opportunities for recreation in the Spring Mountains. There’s not a lot of places to go and have that experience.

00:27:45.000 --> 00:27:49.000

Josh Bean: one of one as far as key areas go in the Spring Mountains.

00:27:48.000 --> 00:27:49.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

00:27:49.000 --> 00:27:56.000

Josh Bean: Um, so I think that, you know, the Forest Service is obviously recognizing that, and uh…

00:27:56.000 --> 00:27:58.000

Josh Bean: You know, they seem to be…

00:27:56.000 --> 00:27:58.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

00:27:58.000 --> 00:28:06.000

Josh Bean: on board and just going through the process on what the next steps are to make sure that we all complete these projects.

00:28:06.000 --> 00:28:08.000

Josh Bean: Jon.

00:28:08.000 --> 00:28:13.000

Josh Bean: Take respect for the land, but also open up opportunities for people to come out and recreate.

00:28:15.000 --> 00:28:29.000

Stuart Winchester: So, Josh, I want to share the trail map again here, because I mentioned you just did this… this Ponderosa pod a couple of years ago, and now you’re doing West Bull. What’s the skier traffic been like? Is…

00:28:29.000 --> 00:28:44.000

Stuart Winchester: as you upgrade all these lifts, and you’ve added snowmaking, and you’re on the power pass, and uh… you know, you have more terrain, and the word about the hike up gets out. Have you seen that in skier visits? Is Lee Canyon getting more volume than it once did?

00:28:43.000 --> 00:28:51.000

Josh Bean: Oh, of course, yeah. We were coming off a record season last year. We’re seeing season path growth this year as well.

00:28:52.000 --> 00:28:53.000

Josh Bean: Um, so…

00:28:53.000 --> 00:28:54.000

Stuart Winchester: Oh, really?

00:28:53.000 --> 00:28:57.000

Josh Bean: You know, the secret’s out, and people are…

00:28:57.000 --> 00:29:01.000

Josh Bean: Uh, are definitely coming and enjoying it. We’re…

00:29:02.000 --> 00:29:17.000

Josh Bean: you know, hopeful that that continues to grow, and we continue to offer them new and better things as they come up and see the new Lee Canyon. And, you know, MCP’s Freedom to Ski initiatives, you know, that’s what we’re all about, is making sure that.

00:29:17.000 --> 00:29:21.000

Josh Bean: We get people up here, um, and…

00:29:21.000 --> 00:29:31.000

Josh Bean: convert kids from, you know, that early stage where they get to ski for free into lifelong, uh, enthusiasts about the Alpine environments that they can go to.

00:29:34.000 --> 00:29:41.000

Stuart Winchester: Yeah, the kids ski-free thing is huge, and Vegas, growing as it’s grown, has…

00:29:41.000 --> 00:29:57.000

Stuart Winchester: somewhat rebranded in some ways to be more family friendly, and obviously you have a lot of kids in the area. That power pass is free for kids up to 12. I mean, that’s incredible. Do you work with local schools to promote that, or do you just kind of see it happening organically?

00:29:55.000 --> 00:30:10.000

Josh Bean: It’s twofold. It’s organically happening. And we also make sure that the local schools throughout the community know about it. And we work with CCSD to make sure that kids are aware of that.

00:30:11.000 --> 00:30:20.000

Josh Bean: And then ultimately just trying to get parents to get their kids up here and do something for them and get them out of that urban environment up into the mountains.

00:30:20.000 --> 00:30:22.000

Josh Bean: Whether it’s mountain biking or skiing.

00:30:24.000 --> 00:30:31.000

Stuart Winchester: I mean, it’s remarkable that your past sales are growing. Is that for Lee Canyon only, or is that MCP as a whole?

00:30:29.000 --> 00:30:33.000

Josh Bean: Uh, it’s MCP as a whole, but Lee Canyon’s on the fore.

00:30:31.000 --> 00:30:33.000

Stuart Winchester: For PowerPass.

00:30:33.000 --> 00:30:35.000

Josh Bean: Uh, we’re, we’re seeing…

00:30:35.000 --> 00:30:40.000

Josh Bean: astronomical growth out of the Vegas community, so…

00:30:40.000 --> 00:30:41.000

Josh Bean: It’s, uh…

00:30:42.000 --> 00:30:44.000

Stuart Winchester: What’s…

00:30:44.000 --> 00:30:53.000

Stuart Winchester: Yeah, what’s remarkable about that to me, Josh, is all of MCP’s resorts, with the exception of Willamette Pass, are sort of southwest.

00:30:53.000 --> 00:30:54.000

Stuart Winchester: And… and…

00:30:54.000 --> 00:31:10.000

Stuart Winchester: You know, all of them had a pretty crummy winter and Lee Canyon closed in March. And as I mentioned, I was there skiing in May a couple of years ago, and it wasn’t your closing day. I think it was May 6th. And I think you had a week or two in after that.

00:31:10.000 --> 00:31:13.000

Stuart Winchester: But MCP is really…

00:31:13.000 --> 00:31:27.000

Stuart Winchester: all about pushing the seasons as long as possible. I don’t know if that bought you a lot of goodwill, but why do you think your season passes are up after a bad year? Because Vail said theirs are down 10%, and they have.

00:31:27.000 --> 00:31:31.000

Stuart Winchester: a lot of offset in the Midwest, in the in the Northeast, where they had good winters.

00:31:30.000 --> 00:31:46.000

Josh Bean: I think it is our commitment to ensuring as long of a season as we can provide. You know, last year, the February summer, as I like to call it, you know, hit us pretty hard in the Southwest. You know, it was unseasonably hot for all of February.

00:31:34.000 --> 00:31:36.000

Stuart Winchester: Yeah.

00:31:47.000 --> 00:31:48.000

Stuart Winchester: Yeah, I think so. Yeah.

00:31:47.000 --> 00:31:55.000

Josh Bean: but we’re also, uh, I think the first resort, uh, in North America to be 100% open last year.

00:31:55.000 --> 00:32:01.000

Josh Bean: And that’s our commitment to our guests, is to make sure that, you know, our snowmaking is used.

00:32:01.000 --> 00:32:11.000

Josh Bean: proficiently, and, uh, we’re getting… getting things done in the… the weather windows that we have, and that’s MCP’s philosophy across all the mountains, uh…

00:32:11.000 --> 00:32:12.000

Josh Bean: If…

00:32:12.000 --> 00:32:20.000

Josh Bean: people don’t know, there’s always an internal push to be the first one open and get those bragging rights amongst…

00:32:20.000 --> 00:32:32.000

Josh Bean: not only, uh, all the resorts in North America, but, uh, we definitely want to beat each other, um, to being open. And I think that season pass holder really respects that and sees that.

00:32:22.000 --> 00:32:23.000

Stuart Winchester: Right.

00:32:35.000 --> 00:32:48.000

Stuart Winchester: So the last thing I want to talk about today, Josh, is just MCP, even if you’re not a pass holder, they do make it very attractive to come ski. And I’m going to do one more screen share here because I want folks to see this.

00:32:48.000 --> 00:33:03.000

Stuart Winchester: Uh, because look at these prices for MCP right now. They start at 9. This is, uh, Lee Canyon, right? And this is November right here. And, uh, the, the, the midweek prices of 23rd, 26 are 9. Weekend is, is, is.

00:33:03.000 --> 00:33:09.000

Stuart Winchester: 29 to 39, and you… as you go down, I mean, if you want to buy for Christmas week right now.

00:33:09.000 --> 00:33:27.000

Stuart Winchester: the most expensive ticket’s $55 on December 26, and, you know, I’m just going through these for those seeing the screen shares. You can see most of January and February for $9 right now. So, just talk about this initiative, and I think you get a $10 gift card, too. So, just talk about this. I mean, this seems crazy to me.

00:33:27.000 --> 00:33:31.000

Stuart Winchester: But talk about these lift tickets and why you’re doing it.

00:33:30.000 --> 00:33:36.000

Josh Bean: Uh, you know, it’s just that, uh, freedom to ski. We want to make sure that we’re not pricing people out of, uh, a sport.

00:33:36.000 --> 00:33:38.000

Josh Bean: You know, I think we’ve seen…

00:33:38.000 --> 00:33:39.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

00:33:38.000 --> 00:33:40.000

Josh Bean: you know.

00:33:40.000 --> 00:33:42.000

Josh Bean: Traditionally, uh…

00:33:42.000 --> 00:33:57.000

Josh Bean: ski areas come in, and they price most families out of being able to come up and enjoy the mountains. MCP has gone the complete other direction. On those $9 tickets, you hit the nail on the head with that. We offer a $10.

00:33:58.000 --> 00:34:03.000

Josh Bean: Rebate with that, so we’re paying you a dollar to come ski on those days, and uh…

00:34:03.000 --> 00:34:08.000

Josh Bean: you know, I see people starting to take advantage of that.

00:34:08.000 --> 00:34:14.000

Josh Bean: Um, it’s… it’s phenomenal to watch that grow through those ticket prices as well, and seeing, uh.

00:34:14.000 --> 00:34:20.000

Josh Bean: You know, a parent company that’s so devoted to making sure that we don’t price people out of… out of a sport.

00:34:20.000 --> 00:34:26.000

Josh Bean: Uh, you know, I think you can compare it to golf, and it’s the exact opposite, that, you know.

00:34:27.000 --> 00:34:35.000

Josh Bean: They don’t want to see people join their sport, and we’re out here saying everybody’s welcome, and $9 tickets are kind of proof in the pudding there.

00:34:37.000 --> 00:34:42.000

Stuart Winchester: And so that’s the starting price, right? And then they go up from there, so you don’t…

00:34:42.000 --> 00:34:45.000

Stuart Winchester: Over saturate the mountain.

00:34:43.000 --> 00:34:51.000

Josh Bean: Yeah, I mean, it’s not gonna be unheard of that we’ll have a $200 ticket price as well as things start to sell out.

00:34:50.000 --> 00:34:52.000

Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.

00:34:51.000 --> 00:34:57.000

Josh Bean: Um, so it’s that plan early, you know, plan ahead, and get those cheap tickets.

00:34:58.000 --> 00:35:13.000

Josh Bean: in on that season pass, because, I mean, that just guarantees your days at a price. Um, and so, I think we’re seeing, you know, two-fold growth there because of that pricing structure, not only on the season pass, and I think that we’re the only company that hasn’t.

00:35:15.000 --> 00:35:26.000

Josh Bean: gave a price increase on our season passes year over year. Um, we stayed pretty steady with it, and here we are again, uh, leading the way on season pass sales in the industry.

00:35:28.000 --> 00:35:44.000

Stuart Winchester: Yeah, I think it’s four years in a row, holding steady. All right, Josh, hey, I really appreciate the time. I know you’re super busy. Good luck with that expansion. I can’t wait to come check it out, take a couple laps with you, and good luck with the growth of Lee Canyon in general, man.

00:35:44.000 --> 00:35:52.000

Stuart Winchester: It’s fascinating, and I’ll be rooting for you guys. So thanks, Josh. You crushed it. Great job. Thank you.

00:35:50.000 --> 00:35:52.000

Josh Bean: Alright, thanks for having me, appreciate it.

Get full access to The Storm Skiing Journal and Podcast at https://www.stormskiing.com/subscribe

Who

Three members of Greek Peak, New York’s leadership team:

* Wes Kryger, President

* Ayden Wilber, Vice President of Mountain Operations

* Jarret Dulemba, Mountain Operations Manager

Date Recorded

Oct. 19, 2026

About Greek Peak

Owned by: John Meier

Located in: Cortland, New York

Year founded: 1957 – opened Jan. 11, 1958

Pass affiliations: Indy Pass, Indy+ Pass – 2 days

Base elevation: 1,148 feet

Summit elevation: 2,100 feet

Vertical drop: 952 feet

Skiable acres: 300

Average annual snowfall: 120 inches

Lift count: 8 (1 fixed-grip quad, 2 triples, 3 doubles – view Lift Blog’s inventory of Greek Peak’s lift fleet)

Why I interviewed them

In March, Greek Peak hit the fast-forward button on a massive snowmaking upgrade. In a single offseason, the resort would lay 33,000 feet of snowmaking pipe and install 250 HKD semi-automated snowguns. Ski area officials had originally planned to spread the work over four years, but an expiring clean-energy credit from local power supplier National Grid accelerated the work.

The $3 million project extended snowmaking nearly wall-to-wall at a long underserved ski area. While Greek Peak can benefit from Lake Erie lake-effect storms, whole tracts on the east side of the mountain would sit shuttered in lean years. No more. Among the trails outfitted with snowmaking over the summer, per Greek Peak’s announcement:

I’ve always thought that Greek Peak, with its gladed acres and affordable onsite lodging and thousand vertical feet and lack of liftlines, was an underappreciated alternative to the Catskills and Poconos circus scenes. But these snowmaking upgrades were badly needed.

A sadder development over the summer: Al Kryger, who helped build Greek Peak, passed away in August at age 87:

Greek Peak President Wes Kryger, Al’s son, had talked a bit about his father on the podcast last year:

Transcripts

There are two transcripts. Both are generated by robots. Both are helpful and defective in their own unique ways. I do not proofread either of them.

Transcript 1: Click the “transcript” button at the top of this article. You can only see this transcript on a computer. Because I don’t know why exactly but everything is getting better and dumber all at once it seems. Anyway, this is the transcript that the robots create when I upload the podcast to the internet. The cool thing about it is that you can click on any block of text and the audio will teleport there instantly. The uncool thing about this transcript is that it does not indicate who is talking at any given moment.

Transcript 2: You can read this below. This is the transcript that Zoom creates as we record the podcast. The cool thing about this transcript is that it indicates who is talking at any given moment. The uncool thing about this transcript is that the timestamps do not match the audio. Also, you cannot click on this text to move to the associated point in the audio.

Zoom

Ayden Wilber is identified below as “bbaisley”

Stuart Winchester: My guests today lead Greek Peak Mountain Resort in New York. Greek Peak has six chairlifts serving 300 acres on 950 vertical feet.

00:10:14.000 --> 00:10:25.000

Stuart Winchester: Wes Krieger is president of the resort since 2013, and he is a member of the Ski New York Hall of Fame. His family has been part of Greek Peak since the ski area’s 1958 founding.

00:10:25.000 --> 00:10:46.000

Stuart Winchester: Aiden Wilbur has been vice president of mountain operations since 2019 and has worked at Greek Peak since 2013 and making his storm skiing podcast debut as Jarrett Dulamba. He has been Mountain Ops manager for the past five years. Wes and Aiden, welcome back to the storm. Jarrett, welcome to the storm for the first time. Always love catching up with the team at Greek Peak.

00:10:46.000 --> 00:10:48.000

Stuart Winchester: How you guys doing today?

00:10:49.000 --> 00:10:51.000

WKryger: Good, Stuart, how are you?

00:10:51.000 --> 00:10:58.000

Stuart Winchester: Doing real well, thank you. So, Wes, I want to start with your father, Al.

00:10:58.000 --> 00:11:04.000

Stuart Winchester: who passed away last year, and had a tremendous legacy with…

00:11:04.000 --> 00:11:20.000

Stuart Winchester: Greek Peak with New York skiing, uh, with the community, uh, big personality, and we talked about some of his specific contributions when you joined me on the podcast, uh, last year. So, I wanted to give you an opportunity to reflect.

00:11:20.000 --> 00:11:29.000

Stuart Winchester: on Al’s legacy and what he meant to the resort and what he meant to you as we reflect on his passing?

00:11:29.000 --> 00:11:37.000

WKryger: Yeah, I appreciate that. He, you know, he started with Greek Peak in 1958.

00:11:37.000 --> 00:11:54.000

WKryger: you know, he was instrumental in the State of New York with some of the other operators, Dennis Shashbaugh, Danny Fuller, bunch of the guys, Russ Colton from Hunter, and they all started the.

00:11:54.000 --> 00:12:09.000

WKryger: saney ski areas of New York organization to help regulate the the industry, and they were instrumental in getting the Article 18.

00:11:57.000 --> 00:11:58.000

Stuart Winchester: Hmm.

00:12:09.000 --> 00:12:26.000

WKryger: passed, which is, you know, skiers and ski area responsibility code which has been very helpful in the industry and and copied pretty much across the Us. As as a.

00:12:15.000 --> 00:12:17.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

00:12:26.000 --> 00:12:38.000

WKryger: regulatory guideline for skiers in ski areas. So that that was a huge contribution to the industry. And.

00:12:38.000 --> 00:12:49.000

WKryger: you know, Al always wanted to, um, see the ski area expand, and then he got it into the four-season aspect with.

00:12:49.000 --> 00:13:03.000

WKryger: Building Hope Lake Lodge, an indoor water park in the Adventure Center with the zip lines and mountain coaster. So he definitely was an entrepreneur and.

00:13:03.000 --> 00:13:13.000

WKryger: We always joke about if you told him it couldn’t be done, that was exactly what he would try to do, and he was successful most of the time.

00:13:13.000 --> 00:13:30.000

WKryger: For me, he was a great leader for me, a great dad, taught me a great work ethic. I told this story at his celebration of life. I was going to college.

00:13:30.000 --> 00:13:42.000

WKryger: working at Greek Peak full-time, and I was the night mountain manager here, and, uh, living at home. I got home, uh, he asked me if all the snow guns had been started up.

00:13:42.000 --> 00:13:51.000

WKryger: and I said there were 4 more to go, and he threw my boots and me outside and told me not to come back until the last one was running.

00:13:51.000 --> 00:14:07.000

WKryger: So he definitely instilled the work ethic, you know, in the community, obviously had a great impact at his celebrational life. There were over 400 attendees that came to the resort to.

00:14:07.000 --> 00:14:12.000

WKryger: pay their respects. So I think definitely had a huge impact.

00:14:12.000 --> 00:14:27.000

Stuart Winchester: So, the interesting thing about these multi-generational ski resorts, and in 2013, your family made the decision to sell to John Meyer, a local businessman, and you obviously stayed involved, and if folks want to hear that story, they can listen to the last Greek Peak episode that we recorded.

00:14:27.000 --> 00:14:42.000

Stuart Winchester: Last year, but I’m always curious with these, Wes, as you grew up at the ski area, right, and you evolved from Rugrat running around the slopes to a guy getting thrown out of the house because you’re not doing it right, to the guy leading the resort, I’m curious how your relationship with your father.

00:14:42.000 --> 00:14:46.000

Stuart Winchester: evolved, and… and how he…

00:14:46.000 --> 00:14:56.000

Stuart Winchester: guided you and… and influenced you as you grew in your role at the resort, and… and grew as a man and an adult, and… and someone who…

00:14:56.000 --> 00:15:00.000

Stuart Winchester: You know, he really couldn’t throw around anymore or throw out of the house.

00:15:01.000 --> 00:15:11.000

WKryger: Well, I think he, you know, he definitely instilled a good work ethic. And he also.

00:15:11.000 --> 00:15:27.000

WKryger: wanted to make sure that you had fun, that it was something you enjoyed doing. You know I also had horses, and was big into horse training and.

00:15:27.000 --> 00:15:29.000

WKryger: Did that and.

00:15:29.000 --> 00:15:44.000

WKryger: You know, he kind of guided me. He didn’t tell me I had to go one way or the other, but gave me the opportunities and, uh, as long as I worked hard, um, you know, he helped me move forward and a lot of times.

00:15:44.000 --> 00:16:01.000

WKryger: The people feel like working for family is easier, but in Al’s case, he expected more out of you than he did your counterparts that were working right next to you. So you always had to work harder.

00:16:01.000 --> 00:16:06.000

WKryger: To prove to him that you were worthy of where he was guiding you, so.

00:16:06.000 --> 00:16:22.000

Stuart Winchester: So, how hard was it for Al to step away? I… you know, the family ski areas can be quirky, and I always think about John Schaefer, who runs Berkshire East over in Massachusetts, and his father, Roy, fixed the place up starting in the 1970s, and, you know, John.

00:16:22.000 --> 00:16:36.000

Stuart Winchester: runs it, but he still says he’s below Roy, who still runs the parking lot into his 80s. Did Al ever truly step away, or was he always kind of hovering around the resort? What kind of retirement did Al have if he had one?

00:16:36.000 --> 00:16:51.000

WKryger: Well, his house was right across from the mountain, so he could see from his living room pretty much everything that was going on at the area. So even when he wasn’t working here on a day to day basis.

00:16:51.000 --> 00:17:06.000

WKryger: He would call me just about daily and ask me, you know, what the heck’s going on on the Odyssey Trail, or why haven’t you groomed the Iliad yet, or… so he definitely kept his eye on us, uh, over the…

00:16:54.000 --> 00:16:55.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

00:16:59.000 --> 00:17:00.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

00:17:05.000 --> 00:17:06.000

Stuart Winchester: Damn.

00:17:06.000 --> 00:17:24.000

WKryger: 1st couple of years of his retirement, and then he actually moved to a different location down in the town of Virgil, where he he couldn’t see. But when I would go down and visit him, I certainly got grilled a fair amount about what was going on.

00:17:17.000 --> 00:17:18.000

Stuart Winchester: Okay.

00:17:24.000 --> 00:17:25.000

WKryger: at the area.

00:17:24.000 --> 00:17:27.000

Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm. Did he figure out the webcams?

00:17:27.000 --> 00:17:30.000

WKryger: Yeah, yeah, he did. He did.

00:17:30.000 --> 00:17:47.000

Stuart Winchester: Uh, Jared and Aiden, and Aiden’s, uh, screen says Bea Baisley, uh, because he’s using someone’s machine, but, uh, just so the viewers know who’s talking, I’m not sure if you had a lot of interaction with Al, or if you have any memories of Al, uh, as a… as a personality. I know you’ve…

00:17:47.000 --> 00:17:53.000

Stuart Winchester: You’re newer to the resort, relatively speaking, but wanted to give you the opportunity to share if you had any.

00:17:54.000 --> 00:18:11.000

bbaisley: Yeah, my first year actually was still when Al owned the place back in 2012. And I can’t say enough great things about him and his wife, Gail. They were great to everybody. I started in public space at the hotel.

00:18:00.000 --> 00:18:01.000

Stuart Winchester: Yeah, thank you.

00:18:12.000 --> 00:18:19.000

bbaisley: cleaning rooms and didn’t matter who you were, they were gracious and people you could easily talk to.

00:18:20.000 --> 00:18:27.000

Stuart Winchester: Jared, I know you’ve only been there five years. And did you just any just thoughts on the legacy?

00:18:27.000 --> 00:18:28.000

bbaisley: I don’t know.

00:18:27.000 --> 00:18:41.000

Jarrett Dulemba: Uh, definitely a legacy to be had for Al. Um, never got to work with him, but would always see him around. He would always ask, what’s going on? Where are you guys at with this project? And stuff like that. Uh, always a supporter of what we were doing.

00:18:28.000 --> 00:18:30.000

Stuart Winchester: Yeah, so. Yeah.

00:18:41.000 --> 00:18:57.000

Stuart Winchester: All right, so thank you all for sharing that, really appreciate that. Very sorry for your loss, but a lot to celebrate about a life like that, and a life well lived, and a lot of things we didn’t cover, because his legacy certainly went well beyond the ski area.

00:18:57.000 --> 00:19:04.000

Stuart Winchester: So, let’s turn to the big project you have going on this year, and I’m gonna…

00:19:04.000 --> 00:19:08.000

Stuart Winchester: Share my screen for those watching on.

00:19:08.000 --> 00:19:27.000

Stuart Winchester: YouTube is Storm Ski Journal on stormskiing.com, because when I, when I read this off, I’m gonna say some trail names, and this’ll make sense if I have them up. So, just wanna read your press release. You have a huge snowmaking investment going in, and this is from March. So, Greek Peak Mountain Resort is proud to announce a transformative $3 million capital investment plan that will continue to modernize and expand.

00:19:27.000 --> 00:19:46.000

Stuart Winchester: its snowmaking capabilities and infrastructure on the mountain. The project for Greek Peak East will launch immediately upon the current season’s conclusion, with an ambitious rollout targeted for the start of 2026-27. The project will include the installation of 250 new HKD semi-automated snow guns.

00:19:46.000 --> 00:20:04.000

Stuart Winchester: Significantly increasing the resort’s ability to produce high quality snow efficiently across the mountain. In addition, Greek Peak will install a new 450 horsepower water pump, boosting total water capacity by approximately 20%. As part of the expansion, crews will install 33,000 feet of new snow making pipeline.

00:20:04.000 --> 00:20:21.000

Stuart Winchester: allowing snowmaking coverage to expand to several additional trails on the east side of the mountain, including Arcadian Gate, Lower Arcadian Gate, Christian Way, Arethus… I can’t pronounce these Greek names… Arethus Way, Mars Hill Connection, Upper Mars Hill, Marathon, Upper Pollux.

00:20:21.000 --> 00:20:32.000

Stuart Winchester: Olympian, and Alpha, so you can see the trails mostly concentrated over here. So, Aiden, let’s start with you. This was supposed to be a four-year timeline.

00:20:32.000 --> 00:20:40.000

Stuart Winchester: And they said, we’re doing it in one summer. Or did you say, we’re doing it in one summer? Take us into this decision.

00:20:40.000 --> 00:20:43.000

Stuart Winchester: How you reacted, and how you got it done.

00:20:43.000 --> 00:20:47.000

Stuart Winchester: Or if you did, I know we’re making an assumption there.

00:20:46.000 --> 00:20:47.000

WKryger: Okay.

00:20:47.000 --> 00:21:00.000

bbaisley: Yeah, we actually just had our inspection last week, and we basically have all the boxes checked off, you know, a few little housekeeping projects to get ready for making snow, but for all intents and purposes, we’re done.

00:21:00.000 --> 00:21:11.000

bbaisley: Yeah, this project was slated to be done over four years. There was some funding opportunity through National Grid.

00:21:10.000 --> 00:21:12.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

00:21:11.000 --> 00:21:20.000

bbaisley: Uh, that had a sunset clause on it at the end of this year, and it really was about energy efficiency and trying to take some load off of the grid.

00:21:20.000 --> 00:21:33.000

bbaisley: So, you know, in getting with ownership and Wes and the mountain team, Jarrett and his team, we all kind of were talking, you know, is this even a feasibly objective to pull off in one season?

00:21:33.000 --> 00:21:44.000

bbaisley: Um, I think there was some doubts. Uh, we put together a calendar that kind of made sense, and uh, you know, we went for it to make sure that we could get it in with this program, and uh…

00:21:44.000 --> 00:21:50.000

bbaisley: it was a struggle. Jarrett and his team did a great job, but uh… ultimately, everybody came together and pulled it off.

00:21:50.000 --> 00:21:57.000

Stuart Winchester: Gerald gets you in a moment and the effort behind it. But Aiden, it’s interesting you say…

00:21:57.000 --> 00:21:59.000

Stuart Winchester: They want to take…

00:21:59.000 --> 00:22:03.000

Stuart Winchester: some load off the grid, because it’s a significant expansion, right? So…

00:22:03.000 --> 00:22:14.000

Stuart Winchester: are you… are the new machines allowing you to make more snow with less guns, or are some of them replacing legacy machines, or is it all new? Take us into that a little bit.

00:22:14.000 --> 00:22:30.000

bbaisley: Yeah, it’s really the big thing is we retired a lot of legacy equipment around the hill and in talking with, you know, the utility companies, if we were to try and make snow on this new terrain with some of the older equipment that we had.

00:22:20.000 --> 00:22:21.000

Stuart Winchester: Yeah.

00:22:31.000 --> 00:22:37.000

bbaisley: It’s just night and day, the power usage with modern snowmaking equipment.

00:22:37.000 --> 00:22:58.000

bbaisley: projected this total project, even with making the whole mountain. If we were to do that with the older equipment we’d be consuming somewhere around 7 million more kilowatt hours per year. So that was really the objective was to to lighten the load on existing terrain, but also prevent future load on on trails we wanted to go to.

00:22:59.000 --> 00:23:14.000

Stuart Winchester: That’s incredible. It’s amazing what the newer technology can do, and I know the guns are only part of it. What else did you have to do infrastructure-wise? Because this is, you know, this trail map very much simplifies it.

00:23:14.000 --> 00:23:33.000

Stuart Winchester: kind of confusing and big and sprawling, and… and it really feels much bigger than it looks on this trail map when you’re skiing there. So… so just talk about… and, you know, this was the area that’s really long. I… so talk about just what else you needed besides the guns when we’re talking about an upgrade of that size.

00:23:22.000 --> 00:23:23.000

bbaisley: One.

00:23:33.000 --> 00:23:51.000

bbaisley: You know, the biggest thing with modern snowmaking, the reason it’s so much more energy efficient is it relies on high pressure water. So over the last, you know, four or five years with the upgrades we’ve done has all been leading up to this culmination where we’ve gotten larger horsepower pumps to increase our water pressure.

00:23:40.000 --> 00:23:41.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

00:23:51.000 --> 00:24:00.000

bbaisley: Because it, uh, exponentially reduces the amount of error that’s required, uh, to make snow, and that’s really where the power savings comes in.

00:23:56.000 --> 00:23:57.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

00:24:00.000 --> 00:24:15.000

bbaisley: Uh The other thing was the 33,000 ft of pipe. A lot of it was increasing the diameter of it. So there’s less water restriction moving it around the hill. Uh We put in a ton of new uh valve stations so we can control water where we need it to go and, and not waste energy.

00:24:16.000 --> 00:24:32.000

Stuart Winchester: So, so Jarrett, let’s talk about the effort here getting this thing in, because, uh, you know, these are, this is great terrain over here and, and it’s, it’s really long and it’s good novice terrain. And, and I believe that a lot of the snow making is concentrated.

00:24:32.000 --> 00:24:40.000

Stuart Winchester: over here. Again, it’s a really long trail. When you ski down, you really feel like you’re making a journey. Talk about…

00:24:40.000 --> 00:24:56.000

Stuart Winchester: the effort that it took, uh, and how you pulled it off. And also, I’m curious, does Greek Peak take its seasonal guys and flip them, or is it a different skill set, and you had to hire contractors? Just take us through how you got it done, and how in-house it was, and how much you had to rely on.

00:24:56.000 --> 00:24:59.000

Stuart Winchester: other businesses in the community.

00:24:59.000 --> 00:25:10.000

Jarrett Dulemba: Yeah, absolutely. So we did this project all in-house, used our in-house welders, uh, recruited some of our snowmakers that just work seasonally, and they helped out.

00:25:08.000 --> 00:25:10.000

Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.

00:25:10.000 --> 00:25:26.000

Jarrett Dulemba: Throughout the summer, that was the main goal was how can we do this in-house without adding that cost? So we were able to get it done, which was a little nerve-wracking at first when we laid it all out. Like Aiden said, there were some doubts, but we were able to do it.

00:25:26.000 --> 00:25:45.000

Stuart Winchester: Any hiccups along the way? You know, it was a Thunder Ridge, which is obviously not in your neighborhood, but still a New York ski area, really got hammered by some rainstorms and suffered significant damage. And that’s just one example. These sorts of things happen every summer at some ski area or another.

00:25:45.000 --> 00:25:47.000

Stuart Winchester: Uh, any… any big…

00:25:47.000 --> 00:25:56.000

Stuart Winchester: Mother Nature events that you had to navigate over the course of this summer, or other obstacles, whether it was, you know, equipment not showing up, or pieces not showing up.

00:25:55.000 --> 00:25:57.000

WKryger: Thank you.

00:25:56.000 --> 00:26:11.000

Jarrett Dulemba: Uh, Mother Nature cooperated. Um, two past summers ago, back-to-back years, we had a tornado touchdown, uh, caused a lot of tree damage. Luckily, we did not experience that this year, so we were able to keep our efforts moving on the snowmaking project.

00:26:03.000 --> 00:26:04.000

Stuart Winchester: Umm.

00:26:11.000 --> 00:26:18.000

Jarrett Dulemba: Uh, we did run into some equipment issue here and there, but luckily, we were able to get a rental while ours got fixed, and we got right back to it.

00:26:17.000 --> 00:26:18.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

00:26:18.000 --> 00:26:22.000

Stuart Winchester: So let’s take us into this a little bit because I’ve seen…

00:26:22.000 --> 00:26:38.000

Stuart Winchester: snowmaking installations in sort of various states, right? If you go there in the summer, you might see the trenches dug into the hill, but that all goes away in the winter, and you don’t see it anymore. So, what can you tell us, Jared, just about.

00:26:39.000 --> 00:26:45.000

Stuart Winchester: The process of digging these very long trenches, you know, uh, keeping them, sort of.

00:26:45.000 --> 00:27:00.000

Stuart Winchester: clear, so you can put the pipe in, imagine that takes multiple days, and then recovering that so that you’re not messing with the trail, right? Because it needs to be flat if you’re going down on a ski trail, which most of this, I’m assuming, is, but maybe not.

00:27:00.000 --> 00:27:06.000

Stuart Winchester: So just take us through the process and, you know, how…

00:27:06.000 --> 00:27:10.000

Stuart Winchester: How your team, like, what your process is for the team?

00:27:09.000 --> 00:27:19.000

Jarrett Dulemba: Absolutely. So, Arcadian Gate, for example, is over a mile long, so that trail, we kind of broke into sections. We would get a certain amount of feet of pipe in the trail.

00:27:13.000 --> 00:27:15.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

00:27:19.000 --> 00:27:35.000

Jarrett Dulemba: Pressure test it backfill in between our hydrant locations. Then we’d go back through, do an install, add more guns to it, add a section of pipe pressure test again, kind of doing that so we didn’t get too far ahead of ourselves so we could stay on top of it.

00:27:33.000 --> 00:27:35.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

00:27:35.000 --> 00:27:43.000

Jarrett Dulemba: button up one trail at a time, and then go back through seed, hay, and grass is already growing on all the terrain.

00:27:43.000 --> 00:27:53.000

Stuart Winchester: Is there part of that that’s fun, like the digging and the making? Or is it tedious because it’s repetitive? How do you feel when you’re out there? You’re just in it?

00:27:53.000 --> 00:28:11.000

Jarrett Dulemba: Yeah, I think you’re just in it, you know. Big part of this was none of us has seen snow making over on the east side. So there’s definitely a big excitement. Part of that was, hey? We’re the 1st ones to put snow making in over here. It’s gonna be awesome this winter can’t wait to ski it more than 5 times a year that we do on natural snow. So.

00:27:54.000 --> 00:27:56.000

Stuart Winchester: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:27:59.000 --> 00:28:00.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

00:28:01.000 --> 00:28:03.000

Stuart Winchester: Yeah.

00:28:09.000 --> 00:28:10.000

Stuart Winchester: Yeah.

00:28:11.000 --> 00:28:22.000

Stuart Winchester: Wes, we talked on the last pot, I believe your dad had a lot to do with this expansion out here. How cool is it for you to see snowmaking over on this side of the mountain, finally?

00:28:23.000 --> 00:28:40.000

WKryger: I think it’s, you know, awesome that it is one of the favorite trails at the mountain because it is so long and kind of a easier intermediate type of trail. So we get a lot of great comments about.

00:28:30.000 --> 00:28:31.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

00:28:40.000 --> 00:28:58.000

WKryger: you know, the terrain, but because it was all natural snow, it wasn’t open nearly as much as we would have liked it to be, so I think with the addition of snowmaking over there, it will certainly be open a lot more than it was, and I think we’ll.

00:28:58.000 --> 00:29:14.000

WKryger: add to more guest comments about when are you going to add lighting? When are you going to have the east side open at night? You’re going to have to have a food facility at the bottom. And so it’s just the beginning of more.

00:29:14.000 --> 00:29:16.000

WKryger: More expansions.

00:29:15.000 --> 00:29:24.000

Stuart Winchester: Well, yeah, that was going to be my next question. So what can you tell us? Do you plan to put in lights? Do you plan to put in a facility or just considering everything?

00:29:24.000 --> 00:29:41.000

WKryger: I think we’re just considering everything and see how, you know, how it goes. Obviously, we anticipate the addition of the snowmaking will have a huge impact. And then, you know, depending on how that.

00:29:41.000 --> 00:29:43.000

WKryger: Affects our numbers, we’ll…

00:29:43.000 --> 00:29:49.000

WKryger: add lighting and more facilities over there if the customers warrant that.

00:29:49.000 --> 00:30:06.000

Stuart Winchester: Yeah, this is a nice little hack for parking, if this lift is running, because then you don’t have to… I mean, this is actually not far from the lifts here either, but it’s just busy, right? So, uh, so this is… I’m not telling you anything you don’t know, but for the listeners. And so, are you at 100% snowmaking now?

00:29:54.000 --> 00:29:55.000

WKryger: Yep.

00:29:58.000 --> 00:29:59.000

WKryger: Yep.

00:30:08.000 --> 00:30:19.000

WKryger: Um, no, we’re… we’re close, but, um, I forget the number you guys, Jarrett and Aiden, came up with. It’s, like, 90-some percent now.

00:30:11.000 --> 00:30:12.000

Stuart Winchester: Okay.

00:30:19.000 --> 00:30:22.000

Stuart Winchester: Which trails are still lacking snowmaking?

00:30:22.000 --> 00:30:35.000

bbaisley: Lower Atlas and, uh, half of Epicurus. Other than that, we’re there. We’re actually gonna try and make the entire Epicurus trail this year, so theoretically, it’s just Lower Atlas.

00:30:24.000 --> 00:30:25.000

Stuart Winchester: Okay.

00:30:27.000 --> 00:30:28.000

Stuart Winchester: Okay.

00:30:28.000 --> 00:30:30.000

Stuart Winchester: All right.

00:30:35.000 --> 00:30:39.000

Stuart Winchester: Oh, wow. And is Lower Atlas on your list for the future?

00:30:39.000 --> 00:30:47.000

bbaisley: Well, we did stub out a T there when we did Castor, was that two years ago? So we’re ready for it as soon as we get the funds approved.

00:30:42.000 --> 00:30:43.000

Stuart Winchester: Okay.

00:30:47.000 --> 00:31:00.000

Stuart Winchester: So you’re almost to 100% snowmaking. How much of that is modern? So I guess my question is, what’s next in snowmaking, right? Are you done? Are you gonna take a breather for a few years? I think…

00:31:00.000 --> 00:31:10.000

Stuart Winchester: kind of have to invest in it every single year in New York, but… but not always as much as you are this year. So… so how far along are you on modernization, and… and what’s next?

00:31:11.000 --> 00:31:13.000

Stuart Winchester: Umm for snowmaking.

00:31:13.000 --> 00:31:22.000

bbaisley: I would say we’re pretty much the whole mountain is modern now. We’ve pretty much retired our entire old fleet of snowmaking.

00:31:22.000 --> 00:31:28.000

bbaisley: I think maybe one might get taken out for nostalgia here and there, but.

00:31:25.000 --> 00:31:27.000

Stuart Winchester: Yeah.

00:31:28.000 --> 00:31:46.000

bbaisley: Um, you know, I think we’ll probably slow down on the snowmaking. There’s a lot of other things to invest in in a ski resort, and I know that’s a concentration of ownership and Wes’s, but I think we’ll continue to look to slowly add more semi-automated hydrants around the hill.

00:31:46.000 --> 00:31:58.000

bbaisley: Those are your biggest bang for your buck for us at the moment as far as increasing our efficiency. And once the hill’s fully semi-automated, I think you could consider full automation.

00:31:58.000 --> 00:32:04.000

bbaisley: There’s really not as much to pick up there as going semi automated.

00:32:04.000 --> 00:32:22.000

Stuart Winchester: Alright, so now that you shift to… as you said, there’s a lot of other priorities. I asked you about lifts a lot last pod, so I won’t go through them exhaustively. That podcast was about a year and a half ago. So, just looking at the trail map here, any changes in your thinking about the future of the lift fleet, or.

00:32:22.000 --> 00:32:28.000

Stuart Winchester: Or is it still pretty much, uh, status quo is good, you’re keeping them up, maintaining them?

00:32:30.000 --> 00:32:41.000

WKryger: Well, I think the lifts, you know, I’ve always said it really isn’t whether it’s new or not, it’s what your maintenance program is and how well you take care of them.

00:32:41.000 --> 00:32:56.000

WKryger: We did replace the drive system on our older Savio lift. The drive system and all the safety switches have been replaced. So we try to stay on top of all of the maintenance.

00:32:56.000 --> 00:33:11.000

WKryger: You know, I think down the road, depending on volume of skiers, we have talked about potential lift changes in the future.

00:33:10.000 --> 00:33:12.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

00:33:12.000 --> 00:33:28.000

Stuart Winchester: Yeah, this is… I’m just showing Lift Log’s pictures of that Carl LaVaro Savario lift. It’s so cool, and it’s a really old lift, but I just love riding it. It’s so nostalgic. You still have the wood slats, and Killington actually retired some Carl LaVaro… I’m not saying it right.

00:33:28.000 --> 00:33:33.000

Stuart Winchester: that brand of lifts recently from Pico. Were you able to get some parts from them?

00:33:33.000 --> 00:33:45.000

WKryger: We have talked to them. At the moment, we’re not in need of anything that they had at the time, but we’re definitely gonna stay in touch with them.

00:33:35.000 --> 00:33:36.000

Stuart Winchester: Okay.

00:33:45.000 --> 00:33:54.000

Stuart Winchester: Uh, so, so you mentioned there, there may be other lifts, Wes, and anything you have in mind for, for future upgrades or replacements?

00:33:54.000 --> 00:34:03.000

WKryger: Oh, there’s been conversations about upgrading lift 4, because that basically leads to the east side of the hill.

00:33:58.000 --> 00:34:00.000

Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.

00:34:03.000 --> 00:34:04.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

00:34:03.000 --> 00:34:19.000

WKryger: So that would probably be one of our higher priority lifts to take a look at. Every time we talk about lift two, the Savio lift, we get some of the same comments that you just made.

00:34:19.000 --> 00:34:28.000

WKryger: That, you know, people love the old, old lift, and the terrain that it goes on, and, you know, that, uh…

00:34:28.000 --> 00:34:44.000

WKryger: there’s a certain nostalgia behind that lift. So you know, from a volume standpoint doesn’t really have a huge impact on the mountain where chair 4 potentially does have an impact from.

00:34:44.000 --> 00:34:49.000

WKryger: feeding the east side in that Arcadian Gate trail.

00:34:49.000 --> 00:34:53.000

Stuart Winchester: So this is a 1970 Hall double right here. What would you like to see there?

00:34:55.000 --> 00:35:07.000

WKryger: Well, the wish list would be to move the quad, the vision’s quad.

00:34:57.000 --> 00:34:59.000

bbaisley: Thank you.

00:34:59.000 --> 00:35:00.000

bbaisley: Okay.

00:35:07.000 --> 00:35:09.000

WKryger: to where chair four is.

00:35:09.000 --> 00:35:22.000

WKryger: and then potentially look at a higher volume lift where Visions is, but I don’t see that in the very near future, but it is on the list.

00:35:09.000 --> 00:35:11.000

Stuart Winchester: Okay.

00:35:20.000 --> 00:35:21.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

00:35:22.000 --> 00:35:31.000

Stuart Winchester: So when you say higher volume, is that a scenario where maybe you put in a six pack and take out one and one A and just have one high capacity lift that serves this peak?

00:35:32.000 --> 00:35:36.000

WKryger: Well, something along that line, I mean, I think.

00:35:34.000 --> 00:35:35.000

Stuart Winchester: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:35:36.000 --> 00:35:55.000

WKryger: you know, a six-pack, potentially. Uh, I’m not sure that we would get rid of Lift 1. When we put the Visions lift in, they told us we could get rid of Lift 1, but as I mentioned in my lift comments, sometimes we have more issues with the new lifts than we do the old lifts.

00:35:55.000 --> 00:36:12.000

WKryger: So Lift One has bailed us out a couple of times when we’ve had some issues with Divisions Lift. So I don’t see Lift One going away anytime soon. But, you know, potentially, again, because Visions is our main.

00:36:12.000 --> 00:36:22.000

WKryger: Lift to get the volume up the hill. I think certainly the the trails and the terrain can handle more volume.

00:36:22.000 --> 00:36:38.000

Stuart Winchester: Do you like the line of lift four? ‘cause right now it’s a little, little tricky to get to if until you know what you’re doing. You either come off lift three and come down or you have to come right here. But it’s kind of hidden, uh, which is fun. And, and again, one of the things I like about Greek Peak is that it’s, I get confused there and I always think that.

00:36:38.000 --> 00:36:47.000

Stuart Winchester: Uh, but do you like the line it’s on? Would you like to bring the bottom, the load, to a different place? I know there’s a hill here. So, any thoughts there?

00:36:48.000 --> 00:37:03.000

WKryger: No, you know, I think we like the line that it’s on. We could go a little further up the hill than it currently goes, which might make some additional terrain accessible.

00:37:03.000 --> 00:37:20.000

WKryger: from it. So if we were to replace it, we’d probably make it a little longer on the top. It is kind of unique, because it sits down in a in a hole, which you know, if your lift is.

00:37:10.000 --> 00:37:11.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmm.

00:37:14.000 --> 00:37:16.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

00:37:20.000 --> 00:37:31.000

WKryger: taking the capacity up the hill fast enough doesn’t create a problem. But we do have a couple of days a year that that hole gets pretty packed.

00:37:31.000 --> 00:37:42.000

Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm. So as you upgrade the mountain and improve it, and hopefully that leads to increases in skier visits, last time, Wes, we had talked about some potential expansions, kind of off in this area. Again, this is just a… it’s a…

00:37:42.000 --> 00:37:57.000

Stuart Winchester: artistic map, so it’s not a real world, but there’s plenty of terrain around that you could expand into. Could this be seen as potentially, now that you have snowmaking over here, a gateway into that expansion, finally, that you’ve thought about for so long?

00:37:57.000 --> 00:38:00.000

WKryger: Yeah, I think potentially, uh…

00:38:00.000 --> 00:38:16.000

Stuart Winchester: All right, let’s talk about passes. Uh, you’ve been on the Indy Pass since day one, 2019. Uh, we are seeing increased competition in the multi-mountain pass market. Uh, the Snow Pass, for example, has launched from Snow Operating, and I, I know that you use their Snow Cloud operating system and.

00:38:16.000 --> 00:38:33.000

Stuart Winchester: And I believe are happy with that. But you’re on the Indy Pass, and they don’t play nice, so you can either be on Indy or Snow Pass. Obviously, there’s also Epic and Icon out there bouncing around, as well as Mountain Collective, which is just Whiteface in New York State.

00:38:33.000 --> 00:38:40.000

Stuart Winchester: Just thoughts on, uh, on the Indy Pass and the current state of multi-mountain passes, and… and it… whether…

00:38:40.000 --> 00:38:46.000

Stuart Winchester: That landscape, that product has been impactful for Greek Peak.

00:38:48.000 --> 00:39:03.000

WKryger: Well, I you know, we’ve been on the Indy Pass way back. I met Doug Fish at one of the national conferences in San Diego, I think it was, or and we were one of the original people to sign up, and.

00:39:03.000 --> 00:39:20.000

WKryger: over the years. It is certainly treated as well as an independent ski area. We do well with the Indy Pass. I think it introduces skiers to Greek Peak that would not have normally.

00:39:20.000 --> 00:39:37.000

WKryger: come to Grigg Peak. So you know again, we’re happy with it. I do think that the evolution of all the different types of passes is going to change over the years as much as Indy wants to.

00:39:37.000 --> 00:39:53.000

WKryger: keep it, you know, so that they don’t play nice with everybody. Sooner or later, I think that will have to change. But for the time being, they certainly.

00:39:53.000 --> 00:40:05.000

WKryger: treat us well, we get along with them. Um, it is financially beneficial for us. Um, and, you know, all of these passes, um.

00:40:05.000 --> 00:40:20.000

WKryger: the other passes have some downsides to them. You know, one of my big concerns with any of the pass options is when it gets to the point that it’s starting to steal.

00:40:20.000 --> 00:40:26.000

WKryger: your own pass holders, that’s when it’s a problem.

00:40:26.000 --> 00:40:36.000

WKryger: And I’ve been pretty clear to Indy that if they put too many mountains surrounding Greek Peak in the program.

00:40:36.000 --> 00:40:51.000

WKryger: will be out, because then it, you know, probably makes more sense for an individual to buy an Indy pass than a Greek peak pass, and if it ever comes to that point, then we would not participate.

00:40:51.000 --> 00:41:02.000

WKryger: But Indy has been very good about talking to me and getting my opinion on whether a certain mountain should be part of it or not.

00:41:02.000 --> 00:41:10.000

WKryger: because I’ve been pretty clear to them that if they get too many close to me, I’m gonna be out. So.

00:41:10.000 --> 00:41:26.000

Stuart Winchester: How about the add on pass? I would imagine your pass holders like the add on because it gets them two days at J Peak and now Smuggler’s Notch and a whole bunch of places up in New England and upstate New York, like Snow Ridge, it gets a ton of snow. I’m not sure if you see this data, but.

00:41:26.000 --> 00:41:31.000

Stuart Winchester: As you talk to your pass holders, is that something that they’ve been taking advantage of?

00:41:32.000 --> 00:41:49.000

WKryger: I think some of them do. You know, I don’t think it’s a I don’t have the the data, but I don’t think it’s a huge amount. I have gotten some feedback that the employee in the pass has been.

00:41:33.000 --> 00:41:35.000

Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Yeah.

00:41:49.000 --> 00:42:06.000

WKryger: pretty popular with our employees. So you know, I I do think it’s a benefit that that our pass holders get the thing that interested me from the beginning was just introducing.

00:41:51.000 --> 00:41:53.000

Stuart Winchester: Yeah.

00:42:06.000 --> 00:42:23.000

WKryger: people that wouldn’t normally come to Greek Peak to Greek Peak, and and actually, a couple of years ago, rode up Lift 4 with a family that was here on the Indy Pass, and they had stayed at Hope Lake Lodge, and they had never been to.

00:42:23.000 --> 00:42:24.000

Stuart Winchester: Down.

00:42:23.000 --> 00:42:30.000

WKryger: Greek peak before, and they thought it was awesome, and that was the whole point.

00:42:30.000 --> 00:42:33.000

Stuart Winchester: Yeah, you know I’m uh…

00:42:33.000 --> 00:42:39.000

Stuart Winchester: a big Greek Peak supporter, and I think it’s underappreciated as…

00:42:39.000 --> 00:42:46.000

Stuart Winchester: a… a fun destination. My family spends every MLK weekend there, just because it’s…

00:42:46.000 --> 00:43:03.000

Stuart Winchester: You still don’t get the lift lines. There’s lots of terrain. You know, it’s usually, usually those natural snow trails have been open and you can ride a shuttle across the street from the resort. So it’s, it’s a really fun place, but I think it’s only gonna get better with all the improvements you’re making. One of the best improvements I’ve thought.

00:43:03.000 --> 00:43:17.000

Stuart Winchester: over the past several years since John Meyer has bought it. It’s just been an explosion in glades, and it’s such a great, fun glade network, and obviously that’s reliant on natural snow. Uh, but… but Jarrett, can you tell us about…

00:43:17.000 --> 00:43:21.000

Stuart Winchester: How skiers can get involved in the Glades.

00:43:22.000 --> 00:43:35.000

Jarrett Dulemba: Yeah, so every year, it’s actually coming up this weekend on Saturday. We host our Glade Day, and that’s a way for locals to come on out, help us clean up the glades, and get them skiable for the winter.

00:43:28.000 --> 00:43:29.000

Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.

00:43:35.000 --> 00:43:44.000

Jarrett Dulemba: We’ve been doing it, I believe this is year five. They come on out, we give them a ride to the top on the lift. We’ll break up into teams, kinda…

00:43:37.000 --> 00:43:39.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

00:43:41.000 --> 00:43:42.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

00:43:44.000 --> 00:43:59.000

Jarrett Dulemba: get an idea of where the glades are at prior, and how much people we need on each glade to clean it up, and then go from there. We give them lunch at the end of it, and a t-shirt, and it’s a great way for the community to get involved, kind of see what’s going on on the mountain.

00:43:49.000 --> 00:43:51.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

00:43:59.000 --> 00:44:01.000

Jarrett Dulemba: And go from there.

00:44:00.000 --> 00:44:04.000

Stuart Winchester: What are you targeting this year? Is that still to be determined?

00:44:04.000 --> 00:44:18.000

Jarrett Dulemba: Uh, me and our patrol director, who ski patrol runs the Glade Cleanup Day, we went around the other day. Um, not too much expansion for this coming season, but we were looking at some new options over on the east side.

00:44:09.000 --> 00:44:10.000

Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Okay.

00:44:14.000 --> 00:44:15.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

00:44:18.000 --> 00:44:19.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

00:44:18.000 --> 00:44:29.000

Jarrett Dulemba: Um, there’s the Tower 14 on Mars Hill, right off the lift line. There’s a pretty good spot, it used to be an old logging road that has kind of gotten overgrown.

00:44:22.000 --> 00:44:23.000

Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.

00:44:29.000 --> 00:44:32.000

Jarrett Dulemba: Um, and that would kick you out onto lower Arcadian Gate.

00:44:32.000 --> 00:44:33.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

00:44:32.000 --> 00:44:42.000

Jarrett Dulemba: So, it’s about a half mile long glade we’re looking at cutting, getting in there, cleaning it up. Some really challenging and technical terrain, but I think it would be a great addition.

00:44:42.000 --> 00:44:48.000

Jarrett Dulemba: And then the potential of extending also’s glade another 200 feet.

00:44:47.000 --> 00:44:49.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmm.

00:44:49.000 --> 00:45:02.000

Stuart Winchester: Okay, awesome. So give us the details. Would people just show up? Do they got to register? Just give us the time and place they should be. This podcast will air on Tuesday, October 20. So this, I believe, is Saturday.

00:44:57.000 --> 00:44:58.000

Jarrett Dulemba: Um, the…

00:45:02.000 --> 00:45:14.000

Jarrett Dulemba: Yep, it’s this Saturday, so, um, definitely stay in the loop on the website. You can sign up on the Greek Peak website for Glade Cleanup Day, and those that are coming out, it’s, uh, 8 AM at the Visions Lift.

00:45:14.000 --> 00:45:18.000

Stuart Winchester: Okay, awesome, awesome. Alright, you usually have a nice turnout for that.

00:45:18.000 --> 00:45:22.000

Jarrett Dulemba: Yeah, really good in like the 70s.

00:45:20.000 --> 00:45:21.000

Stuart Winchester: Yeah.

00:45:22.000 --> 00:45:24.000

Stuart Winchester: Alright, last…

00:45:24.000 --> 00:45:39.000

Stuart Winchester: thing for you today. I really just want to get your reaction on the news last week that Toggenberg has been sold to a family that intends to reopen the ski area. Uh, and there’s a couple reasons I think this is relevant.

00:45:39.000 --> 00:45:57.000

Stuart Winchester: to the team here. Uh, one is, is that at one time, Greek Peak owned Toggenberg from 2015 to 2021, when, uh, John Myers sold it to Peter Harris, or Intermountain Management, who owns Song and Lab, and closed it. Again, saying this for the listeners, I know you already know all this.

00:45:57.000 --> 00:46:01.000

Stuart Winchester: And so I think you probably have some insight into…

00:46:01.000 --> 00:46:13.000

Stuart Winchester: the challenges of running TOG, and also it just brings a new competitor back into your market. So, so just curious, uh, general reaction to, uh, the, the news that Toggenberg.

00:46:13.000 --> 00:46:19.000

Stuart Winchester: is aiming to reopen for the 2027-28 ski season after being dormant since 2021.

00:46:21.000 --> 00:46:40.000

WKryger: Well, I was part of running Taugenberg when Greek Peak or John Meyer owned it. You know, I think it’s interesting news that the original landowners of Taugenberg are the ones that have purchased it back.

00:46:40.000 --> 00:46:43.000

WKryger: Umm, you know I I.

00:46:43.000 --> 00:46:53.000

WKryger: wish them the best. I think it is a huge undertaking, but I certainly know that there are a lot of.

00:46:53.000 --> 00:47:04.000

WKryger: people in that area that are loyal to Toggenberg, and I hope they are successful with getting it reopened.

00:47:04.000 --> 00:47:12.000

Stuart Winchester: What were some of the challenges or just nuances or quirks, Wes, of running Toggenberg?

00:47:13.000 --> 00:47:17.000

WKryger: Well, I think a lot of of this stuff.

00:47:17.000 --> 00:47:19.000

WKryger: you know it.

00:47:19.000 --> 00:47:34.000

WKryger: I know there always was a bit of a joke in the industry that it was a restaurant with a ski area on the side, because Jim Hickey was a big restaurant guy, and he did an awesome job at that.

00:47:26.000 --> 00:47:27.000

Stuart Winchester: Right.

00:47:32.000 --> 00:47:33.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

00:47:34.000 --> 00:47:36.000

WKryger: the ski area.

00:47:36.000 --> 00:47:52.000

WKryger: didn’t get quite as much maintenance as it probably should have. So certainly that was one of the challenges was to get everything, you know, up to code. And I’ve not.

00:47:41.000 --> 00:47:42.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

00:47:52.000 --> 00:48:04.000

WKryger: been there since it was sold to Peter Harris, but some of the things, some of the pictures and things I’ve seen is, you know, there’s an awful lot.

00:48:04.000 --> 00:48:19.000

WKryger: to rebuild. Peter had taken some of the equipment from TOG, so definitely feel it will be a bit of a challenge, but I certainly wish them the best, and I would be.

00:48:19.000 --> 00:48:36.000

WKryger: you know, happy to answer any questions that they have from when I ran it. But you know, nice little mountain reminded me of the old days of of Greek Peak before it turned into a 4 season when it was just a.

00:48:34.000 --> 00:48:35.000

Stuart Winchester: Yeah, I think so.

00:48:36.000 --> 00:48:43.000

WKryger: seasonal ski areas, so there’s certainly some neat things about that.

00:48:43.000 --> 00:48:58.000

Stuart Winchester: You know, Wes, when you were talking about your father earlier, a lot of what he did was very collaborative and very outward looking and, and for the industry, for example, the, the Safety Act, the Responsibility Act, uh, the Ski Areas of New York, which I think is one of the best.

00:48:58.000 --> 00:49:03.000

Stuart Winchester: state associations, ski associations in the country.

00:49:03.000 --> 00:49:23.000

Stuart Winchester: so you… you grew up seeing that, and… and that’s sort of been the Greek peak philosophy, was to look outward, but they’re also competitors, so… so how do you balance that, because it is a new competitor coming into the market, or are you not concerned about that, because it’s just they have a different demographic that goes there? They’re just sort of between you and Syracuse off the… off the highway, for the listeners.

00:49:23.000 --> 00:49:30.000

WKryger: Well, I think they’re… you know, we’re not overly concerned, because originally, when, uh…

00:49:30.000 --> 00:49:47.000

WKryger: We purchased Toggenberg. It was to try to get the Syracuse market and introduce them to Greek Peak, which we did get some, and it was somewhat successful, but not to the degree that we had hoped.

00:49:37.000 --> 00:49:39.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

00:49:47.000 --> 00:50:03.000

WKryger: And I think that, you know, Toggenberg has its own community as most ski areas do have their local loyal people that enjoy that mountain and that location.

00:50:03.000 --> 00:50:13.000

WKryger: you know, for that reason, uh, I wish them the best, and I don’t see them as a huge threat, because they’re a different product than we are.

00:50:13.000 --> 00:50:19.000

Stuart Winchester: Aiden, I’m not sure if you ever had any experience running TOG, or were you always just down at Greek?

00:50:19.000 --> 00:50:25.000

bbaisley: Yeah, I was up at TOG for two years, you know, kind of bouncing back and forth like Wes did.

00:50:24.000 --> 00:50:33.000

Stuart Winchester: Yeah, any challenges, quirks, anything you remember about just the systems there, or the machinery, or the flow of the mountain?

00:50:33.000 --> 00:50:41.000

bbaisley: You know, it’s a great ski hill. I did work with Jim Hickey a lot. He was a great guy.

00:50:38.000 --> 00:50:40.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

00:50:41.000 --> 00:50:54.000

bbaisley: You know, again, like Wes said, it’s a different product. I think it’s a local community ski hill where people get together and they have that sense of community where Greek Peak is, if you’re looking for a little bit bigger of a ski experience, that’s what we have here.

00:50:52.000 --> 00:50:54.000

Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.

00:50:54.000 --> 00:51:12.000

bbaisley: Um, you know, I think they’re gonna struggle a bit with some outdated lifts and snowmaking equipment, and uh, you know, they can always reach out if there’s anything that they need help with, but uh, I hope the best for them, and they can get it up and running, because ultimately, the more skiers, the better it is for us and everyone in the country.

00:51:12.000 --> 00:51:23.000

bbaisley: that’s a big initiative by the National Ski Association right now, is how do we grow the ski community base in New York and across the country, so we need to kind of work together on that.

00:51:23.000 --> 00:51:39.000

Stuart Winchester: Yeah, it’s a really interesting story, and I actually spoke with James Wheeler this morning, and the reason I’m bumping the air date of this podcast to tomorrow is because I’m going to do the TOG one today, which I’ve already recorded. So, I really appreciate you sharing your thoughts on that and everything else. What an awesome.

00:51:39.000 --> 00:51:55.000

Stuart Winchester: evolution of Greek Peak. Really, really excited to see how that new snowmaking works out, and I think it’s really gonna open up your mountain and your audience, so to speak, in future years. So, congratulations on getting that done. I know it was a lot of work, and thank you all.

00:51:55.000 --> 00:51:58.000

Stuart Winchester: Uh, for joining us here today, and hopefully talk to you soon.

00:51:58.000 --> 00:51:59.000

bbaisley: Thank you.

00:51:58.000 --> 00:52:00.000

WKryger: Thanks, Stuart.

00:51:59.000 --> 00:52:02.000

Stuart Winchester: All right. Thanks, guys. Take care.

00:51:59.000 --> 00:52:00.000

Jarrett Dulemba: Thank you.

00:52:01.000 --> 00:52:02.000

WKryger: Yep.

00:52:03.000 --> 00:52:04.000

Stuart Winchester: No.

00:52:06.000 --> 00:52:07.000

Stuart Winchester: All right.

00:52:11.000 --> 00:52:13.000

Stuart Winchester: Bye. Thanks.

00:52:15.000 --> 00:52:16.000

Stuart Winchester: Okay.

00:52:16.000 --> 00:52:23.000

Stuart Winchester: All right. That was Team Greek Peak. Always glad to have them on.

00:52:23.000 --> 00:52:39.000

Stuart Winchester: As I said, I recorded this podcast right after I recorded the Toggenberg podcast, so no new reader reaction for you right now. Uh, let me just say that I’ll be back tomorrow with a podcast with.

00:52:39.000 --> 00:52:43.000

Stuart Winchester: Lee Canyon, Nevada, General Manager.

00:52:43.000 --> 00:52:50.000

Stuart Winchester: Josh Bean, and Lee Canyon is doing an expansion this year. A big one, not a tall one.

00:52:50.000 --> 00:53:05.000

Stuart Winchester: And we’ll get into that more tomorrow. And then Wednesday I’ll have Jackson Hogan, gear expert on formerly of Real Skiers, now master boot fitter still. And he will break down some gear questions for us, which obviously is something I don’t cover a lot.

00:53:05.000 --> 00:53:12.000

Stuart Winchester: So, Jackson’s my go-to for that. And Thursday, I’ll talk to the president of Powder Mountain in Utah.

00:53:12.000 --> 00:53:23.000

Stuart Winchester: So, until then, to make sure you get all those podcasts into your inbox the moment they are live, please go to stormskiing.com and subscribe to the Storm Skiing Newsletter.

00:53:23.000 --> 00:53:33.000

Stuart Winchester: If you like the free version of the newsletter, you can upgrade to the paid subscription. And that is the very best way to support my mission of independent ski journalism.

00:53:33.000 --> 00:53:44.000

Stuart Winchester: And it’s also the only way to interact with the podcast. You can leave comments on the article to the companies, the podcast and storms game dot com and I will read them on the next episode. Usually the ones that I can get to.

00:53:44.000 --> 00:53:53.000

Stuart Winchester: You can also rep the storm with a shirt, hoodie, hat, or other items by shopping at the Storm Store, stormskiing.myshopify.com.

00:53:53.000 --> 00:54:07.000

Stuart Winchester: stormskiing.myshopify.com. Please follow The Storm on YouTube, Instagram, and TikTok at stormskijournal. Until next time, stay well, stay safe. I’m Stuart Winchester, and I’ll talk to you again very soon.

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Stuart Winchester: Hold on for the intro.

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Stuart Winchester: Welcome to The Storm! I’m your host, Stuart Winchester. Today is Tuesday, October 20th, 2026. We are recording this episode on Monday, October 19th.

00:56:04.000 --> 00:56:11.000

Stuart Winchester: Today on The Storm, the team at Greek Peak New York takes us into their $3 million snowmaking expansion.

00:56:11.000 --> 00:56:23.000

Stuart Winchester: tells us what lift they would like to replace lift for, and reflects on the legacy of Al Krieger in sharing, in shaping their modern ski area.

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Stuart Winchester: I’ll rerecord that.

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Stuart Winchester: Welcome to The Storm. I’m your host, Stuart Winchester. Today is Tuesday, October 20th, 2026. Today on The Storm, the team at Greek Peak takes us into their $3 million snowmaking expansion that finally takes them almost to 100% snowmaking coverage.

00:56:43.000 --> 00:56:49.000

Stuart Winchester: They tell us what they would like to replace the congested lift for.

00:56:49.000 --> 00:56:56.000

Stuart Winchester: And they reflect on the legacy of Al Krieger in shaping the modern ski area.

00:56:56.000 --> 00:57:00.000

Stuart Winchester: All that today. It’s a great show. Let’s get right to it.

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Stuart Winchester: Team Greek, Pete!

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Stuart Winchester: All that today. Let’s get right to it. Here is Team Greek Peak.

Get full access to The Storm Skiing Journal and Podcast at https://www.stormskiing.com/subscribe

Who

James Wheeler, co-owner of Toggenburg, New York

Date Recorded

Oct. 19, 2026

About Toggenburg

Owned by: The Wheeler Family

Year founded: 1953, closed since 2021

Base elevation: 1,248 feet

Summit elevation: 1,763 feet

Vertical drop: 515 feet

Skiable acres: 83

Average annual snowfall: 160 inches

Lift count: 3 (1 triple, 2 doubles)

Why I interviewed him

In August 2021, I wrote a post eulogizing Toggenburg, a Central New York ski area that was closing after 68 years:

The cause of death: Peter Harris, longtime owner of the nearby Song and Labrador ski areas, had purchased Toggenburg with the explicit intent of closing it.

“I struggled with the decision,” Harris told me at the time. “After much analysis, it seemed to be a logical decision, and I sincerely think this is better for the Central New York ski scene. I think we’re going to have a better experience, because obviously we’re going to have more resources to invest in the two remaining areas.”

New York State Attorney General Letitia James disagreed. Fourteen months later, her office filed suit against Harris’ company, Intermountain Management, for violating the state’s antitrust laws. As I wrote at the time:

With 14 months to investigate the sale, New York State Attorney General Letitia James has presented a different take. On Friday, she sued Intermountain Management – the umbrella company that owns Labrador and Song – “for buying its main competitor, Toggenburg Mountain, then shutting it down to direct skiers to its own mountains.” This action, James said, created a “complete, unchallenged dominance in the Syracuse area” – a monopoly – for what her office calls “season-pass skiing” around Syracuse, a violation of New York State’s antitrust law, the Donnelly Act. “even if the Toggenburg acquisition and closure did not establish or maintain Intermountain’s monopoly, it harmed, and continues to harm, consumers by eliminating a competitor without any procompetitive justification,” the court summons states.

The state decided in James’ favor in March 2025, but said it needed more time to “decide the appropriate remedy for Intermountain’s anticompetitive conduct.” It took a year and a half to determine that remedy, but last Friday, the AG’s office announced the court-ordered solution: Harris had sold Toggenburg to new owners, who were determined to re-open the facility as a ski area:

New York Attorney General Letitia James today announced that Intermountain Management (Intermountain) has sold Toggenburg Mountain (Toggenburg) to a new owner who plans to rebuild and reopen it for the 2027-28 ski season, restoring competition among Syracuse ski resorts. In October 2022, Attorney General James sued Intermountain for buying its only competitor, Toggenburg, and shutting it down, forcing Syracuse skiers to the two resorts owned by Intermountain. In March 2025, Attorney General James won her case when a judge ruled that Intermountain violated state antitrust law by stifling competition when it shut down Toggenburg and instituted a “no poach” agreement preventing Toggenburg’s owner from hiring any Intermountain employees at his other New York ski resorts. Under a settlement with the Office of the Attorney General (OAG), Intermountain today closed its sale of Toggenburg to Douglas Wheeler, a local business owner who plans to reopen the ski facility.

“Competition among Syracuse ski areas means more choices and better prices and services for New York skiers,” said Attorney General James. “We’re putting an end to Intermountain’s illegal monopoly that allowed it to raise prices and take advantage of skiers. I am thrilled that New Yorkers will once again have access to Toggenburg Mountain, and I will always fight to protect consumers and workers from illegal monopolies that try to profit at their expense.”

So who is Douglas Wheeler? Well, it turns out that, in true New York ski area fashion, Togg will be run family-style. When I spoke to him on Sunday, Wheeler deferred to his son, James Wheeler, as the public face of the mountain. A phone call and a few texts later, and we were set up for this morning’s podcast, where I learned quite a bit about the future of a once-lost ski area.

Transcripts

There are two transcripts. Both are generated by robots. Both are helpful and defective in their own unique ways. I do not proofread either of them.

Transcript 1: Click the “transcript” button at the top of this article. You can only see this transcript on a computer. Because I don’t know why exactly but everything is getting better and dumber all at once it seems. Anyway, this is the transcript that the robots create when I upload the podcast to the internet. The cool thing about it is that you can click on any block of text and the audio will teleport there instantly. The uncool thing about this transcript is that it does not indicate who is talking at any given moment.

Transcript 2: You can read this below. This is the transcript that Zoom creates as we record the podcast. The cool thing about this transcript is that it indicates who is talking at any given moment. The uncool thing about this transcript is that the timestamps do not match the audio. Also, you cannot click on this text to move to the associated point in the audio.

Zoom

Stuart Winchester: My guest today represents the Wheeler family, who last week purchased Toggenberg Ski Area in New York.

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Stuart Winchester: The ski area, which has been closed since 2021, has three chairlifts serving 22 trails, and had been open since the 1950s.

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Stuart Winchester: The Wheelers plan to reopen Toggenberg for the 2027 to 28 ski season. James Wheeler is my guest. James, welcome to the storm. Thank you so much for joining us on such short notice. How does it feel to own a ski area?

00:10:37.000 --> 00:10:55.000

James Wheeler: Stuart, thank you for having me. Uh, it is… it’s, uh, nothing short of a miracle right now. I mean, we’re still, uh, we’re very surprised that this has honestly, uh, gone through. We’re very happy to be where we are right now. Um, and just… the feelings, it hasn’t all set in yet. We’re still very, uh, shocked at some of the things that we’ve discovered.

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James Wheeler: Uh, we’re slowly trying to map out a game plan for which, uh, avenue to tackle first, uh, whether that’s the restaurant end of things, or the actual, the, uh, the mountain end of things, whether that’s snowmaking, or, uh, pumps, or snow cats. We are just getting a game plan and starting to get everything tackled. However.

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James Wheeler: The actual, the feelings of the matter, we’re just overwhelmed with joy and excitement to be able to bring this back to the community.

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Stuart Winchester: Lots to do, and it’s a whirlwind, but a long time building, and your family…

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Stuart Winchester: as I understand it, at least from talking to your father, Doug, yesterday, and yourself, are not skiers. However, you have other attachments to Toggenberg that inspired this. So why did the Wheeler family purchase Toggenberg?

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James Wheeler: Yeah, so I can say I was never much of a skier, and that goes for most of my family. I did a little bit of snowboarding when I was younger, and my sister did some skiing here or there. However, what really roots us to Taugenberg was.

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James Wheeler: My great-great-grandfather, back before Toggenberg was actually a ski resort, he owned the property for agricultural purposes. He raised Toggenberg goats on the property. And that obviously had since gotten sold to the Hickeys, who opened the mountain and ran that successfully for so many years.

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James Wheeler: And, uh, when it got shut down, I’m from Fabius, which is obviously where Taugenberg is, and it just, it really hurt the community. There were so many people devastated. The people that wanted their first jobs there, got their first jobs there, um, grew up skiing there, learned how to ski, and just missed the family-friendly atmosphere. And we…

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James Wheeler: have been working for a little, uh, just under 3 years on trying to purchase and reopen that ski center. It’s been quite the… quite the battle for 3 years, but we’re very excited to be able to have it back, not just in our family, but in the community’s hands, uh, and ultimately.

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James Wheeler: work towards the reopening of this and bringing it back to Fabius.

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Stuart Winchester: It’s incredible how much passion there could be in such a small community.

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Stuart Winchester: around such a small ski area. Did you ever get the sense that there was a despair that it would never reopen, or did folks always kind of know that.

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Stuart Winchester: There was enough passion around the place that someone would figure it out.

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James Wheeler: So, I will say, I think there’s two different groups of people in that sense. There is, uh, there’s your group of people that…

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James Wheeler: they’re so passionate about it, they definitely always saw it as a possibility, and I would say I would fit into that category, obviously, we’ve been working on it for so long. Um, we were able to see the Facebook pages, there’s a Facebook page called ReopenTOG with.

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James Wheeler: over 3,000 followers on it that are just local people for the most part that have been, you know, supporting this and trying to get this, but you obviously have your group of people as well, or even in that Facebook page specifically, starting to watch people over the years dwindle out and, you know.

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James Wheeler: find it less likely to reopen as things start to deteriorate. The worst thing for anything is to sit there. So people definitely started to lose hope, I think, to a sense. But every time that we were able to give the public an update, especially now that we’ve closed, it has just been nothing but positivity. Everyone is.

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Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

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James Wheeler: willing to help, excited to help, uh, want to… they want to throw their services, their labor, their skills, whatever the case may be, in any way possible to help bring this mountain back. So I think it has completely re-sparked everyone, or relit a fire in them, uh, for lack of better words, and they just… they want…

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James Wheeler: Nothing more than to help bring this mountain back.

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Stuart Winchester: Well, you’re gonna need some help. Uh, my understanding is the mountain is, uh, is in need of some work. So, so take us into this, James, as much as you can. Give us an overview of the state of the ski area and the buildings and infrastructure on the property.

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James Wheeler: So, like anything, uh, sitting is just awful for… for a lot of the buildings. The… I will say, I guess we can start in, like, the maintenance end of things. The maintenance building, it’s in pretty good condition compared to how it was left off. Obviously, that’s just a basic pole barn that was used for repairing.

00:15:00.000 --> 00:15:18.000

James Wheeler: And storing snow cats and extra equipment and you know, all the snowmobiles and four wheelers that it takes to run the hill. That building is honestly in pretty good condition other than some basic maintenance needs. The whole property as a whole, the cables have been taken off the lifts.

00:15:18.000 --> 00:15:27.000

James Wheeler: All the chairs do still sit there. However, the cables, there’s no point in trying to reuse those. We’re gonna have to purchase new and have those reinstalled on the property.

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James Wheeler: Uh, which we were expecting, we knew that going into it. As far as the snowmaking goes, it’s a question mark. I mean, you can’t really… you’re never gonna dig up the whole ground and try and test every pipe. The only way to do this is to charge that hill and get water thrown…

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James Wheeler: Flowing through those pipes, and…

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James Wheeler: unfortunately, sit back and watch the geysers start shooting out of the ground, and then we have to start, you know, patching it and welding it from there. I am very fortunate, uh, my family has got a welding background, a construction background, so that is nothing that we can’t handle, and I do have some people very close to me that actually.

00:16:01.000 --> 00:16:12.000

James Wheeler: work for water departments and do this on a day-to-day basis. They repair water mains all across the state. So, uh, that is something that we are definitely expecting and prepared for.

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James Wheeler: As far as the lodge goes, it’s, uh, it’s gonna need some work, for sure. There’s, uh, windows spaced in the whole back wall for the people that are familiar with Tongenberg, and that whole wall is gonna need to be taken out and rebuilt, just due to water damage and whatnot. Like, there’s no, there’s no saving it, a lot of the windows are broken and busted, just…

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James Wheeler: from a lack of maintenance, unfortunately. So, we’re gonna have to dedicate quite a bit of time in there, and that’s something that Tongenberg’s always had, this family-friendly feel, this warm, inviting environment, but I think we can capitalize on.

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James Wheeler: the remodel that it’s going to need, and help, you know, make that family feel a more welcoming vibe, even… even greater. We’ve got some ideas, and I don’t want to spill all the beans right now, but I think the public’s going to be super excited for some of the changes that we bring to the place.

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Stuart Winchester: So just jumping in here.

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Stuart Winchester: There’s a lot of chatter, right? A lot of rumors. So…

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James Wheeler: Yep.

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Stuart Winchester: Just to clarify with you, because the perception I’ve heard from some people was that the chair lifts had been, the haul ropes and the carriers, the chairs have been stripped away, but it sounds like they’re still on the property and you own those.

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Stuart Winchester: Uh, there was also a perception that all of the snow guns had been removed from the property, but yesterday, Doug said that, indeed, there were still some snow guns, only some had been taken away. Uh, and also in the lodge, uh, kitchen equipment, uh.

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James Wheeler: Correct.

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James Wheeler: Yep.

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Stuart Winchester: other… I don’t know about the tables and chairs, things like that, so… so can you… can you set the facts straight on what is still at Toggenberg as far as infrastructure goes?

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James Wheeler: Absolutely. So yeah, a lot of people, as you just mentioned, a lot of people hear a rumor and they run with it rather than just trying to confirm it. And we’ve kept this whole project pretty, pretty silent. So I understand that. I definitely expect the rumors as far as the chairlifts go, the poles.

00:18:05.000 --> 00:18:23.000

James Wheeler: are still there. All of the motoring and whatnot to operate the lifts are still there. They still need to be tested. We’ve gotten in there over the last weekend and definitely started to test out some water as far as, like, in the building goes, and, um, some of the smaller infrastructure, and just getting some stuff cleaned up, but.

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James Wheeler: Uh, going back to the chairlifts, yes, all of the chairs, as far as I’ve been able to tell, are still there. All the numbers seem to add up. The cables are still on the property as well. However, they’ve been cut, and the only way to do… to re-put those on would be splicing them back together.

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Stuart Winchester: Yeah.

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James Wheeler: And the cost to splice them back together versus the cost to repurchase new ones just doesn’t make sense. You might as well just buy new and have, you know, cables that are gonna last for the next 15 to 20 years. Um…

00:18:43.000 --> 00:18:44.000

Stuart Winchester: Right.

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James Wheeler: as far as snow cats go for the grooming of the hill and pushing the snow around, those… we have one old parts snow cat that’s broken down. It was just simply there, um, I think just for nostalgic purposes, and for them to grab occasional pieces off of as needed, so…

00:19:05.000 --> 00:19:18.000

James Wheeler: Um, we will need to purchase all new ones of those. Uh, the pump house across the street, we have 4 out of the 5 pumps in there. We have to run tests on those, because they’ve been sitting for so long. They were the 4 that were not primarily used.

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Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

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James Wheeler: Um, so those are there. Uh, kitchen specifically, that is gonna be a complete overhaul. Most of what’s in the kitchen is either gone, or what is left is…

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James Wheeler: not… it’s never going to be usable. It doesn’t make sense to try and breathe life back into that type of stuff. So, for the bar and restaurant, we’ve got to review the taps and whatnot, but the actual main structural integrity of the restaurant itself looks really good. It’s honestly one of the.

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Stuart Winchester: You’re talking about the foggy goggle, right?

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James Wheeler: Yes, the foggy goggle. Yes, that is actually…

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Stuart Winchester: Okay. I think people will be really happy to hear that.

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James Wheeler: Yes, I was very surprised. I mean, we need to do your basic cosmetics, we want to redo some of the booths, but that’s small stuff compared to what we’re facing with the rest of the hill. We’re very…

00:19:52.000 --> 00:19:53.000

Stuart Winchester: Yeah.

00:20:01.000 --> 00:20:11.000

James Wheeler: Pleased to see how well the condition is in there, and excited to bring that back to the people first, as long as we can get our liquor license and everything sorted out as quickly as possible.

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Stuart Winchester: So let’s take a look a little more specifically at the hill here, James, and I’m sharing my screen for those of you watching on StormSkiing.com or YouTube at Storm Ski Journal. So this is about a circa 2017 trail map from Toggenberg, which, you know, it’s a little bit of an interpretive map, it’s not exactly literal, but.

00:20:29.000 --> 00:20:46.000

Stuart Winchester: It, it gives us a good sense of what the ski area was. So you had the south lift here and then you had the north lift here. Those are both double chairs. And then over here on far lookers left, you had a Borvig triple. Now that, that hall double the north chair.

00:20:39.000 --> 00:20:41.000

James Wheeler: Yep.

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Stuart Winchester: is actually dates to 1962. It was moved from Holiday Valley, New York in 2011, but it started as their Mardi Gras double, then they moved it for their Snow Pine double, now it’s the… now it’s, uh, Toggenberg’s North. Uh, the South double is also a haul, dating to 1971, and this Borvig.

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James Wheeler: Correct.

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Stuart Winchester: is from 1986, and then there were also 2 rope tows over here. So, do you… I don’t know if you’ve tested, like, turned on the lifts just to see if the machinery functions, but do you anticipate trying to restart all of these 5 lifts, or are there some that you…

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James Wheeler: Let’s see.

00:21:18.000 --> 00:21:25.000

Stuart Winchester: intend to replace. Just take us through the Lyft fleet and what your current thinking is around what the future of that could be.

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James Wheeler: So, the triple chair, uh, the farthest south lift there, uh, we definitely intend on, uh, getting that one back operational, no matter what. Just, I think that’s honestly one of the best locations of the property, especially for the more skilled skiers. Um, and that was the one that was put in.

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Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

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Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

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James Wheeler: most recently, we can obviously accommodate the most amount of people on that as well. As far as the rope tows for the bunny hills, I see no reason we cannot reuse those. Those have been taken down and stored inside. All the ropes are stored inside. And those are… I mean, there’s honestly not too much to break or maintain on those. They go up every winter, and they come down every winter.

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Stuart Winchester: Okay.

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Stuart Winchester: Right.

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James Wheeler: Uh, and they see the least amount of traffic, obviously, which is great. As far as the double chairs in the center there, lift 1 and lift 2, we are going to get those on as soon as possible, and do exactly what you just said. We need to run tests on the motors, we need to get, uh, safety certifiers in there, and at least, you know.

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James Wheeler: give us an idea on if they’re even going to be reusable. If they are not, we will absolutely explore, uh, getting more lifts in there, because running one lift up that hill is just not possible. We need to have as much as possible. Uh, but as of right now, we just closed on this, uh, last Thursday, which would be October 15th, so we need to…

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James Wheeler: Continue to devote some time in there. I will say in the last three days, we’ve been able to get in and start getting an inventory of what is left. Like you had mentioned a little bit ago, as far as snow guns and whatnot, starting to get a count on those and getting a feel and looking at what we can update that with to some more modern times. There’s absolutely plenty that’s reusable there.

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James Wheeler: However, there’s so much that we’re going to have to explore new options for, and in the near future, that may be chairlifts as well. We’re hoping to be able to at least temporarily operate off of what’s there as long as we can pass the safety inspections, which is a whole other battle that we’re going to have to explore.

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James Wheeler: Um, but we are investors, we invest in all of our companies, and make sure that we’re running at least the top of the line, um…

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James Wheeler: you know, whether that’s in the print company, bucket trucks, or the repair shop lifts, or now, in this industry, the chair lifts. We want to always be as safe as possible, with the best equipment as possible.

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Stuart Winchester: So this legacy trail network that we see here may be too early to say, but talk to us about has it been mowed? Has it been maintained? Uh, and you know, what kind of shape is this trail network in as far as being a recognizable trail network?

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Stuart Winchester: And do you plan to bring it back substantively as it was, or do you anticipate maybe some new trails, maybe not bringing back all the trails, maybe thinning out some woods over here in the… these are really good woods, there’s kind of a, like, ravine here, and it’s not on the map, but…

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James Wheeler: Mm-hmm.

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Stuart Winchester: But it’s really fun. So what do you think about what we’re looking at here and how much that could resemble a future Toggenberg?

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James Wheeler: So what I will say is if, like any ski center, you drive by it and it’s been five years, which is a long time, but for Mother Nature to completely take over the land, it’s still very recognizable as a ski center and what Toggenberg was.

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Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.

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James Wheeler: Um, out of the gate, we would intend on being able to open everything up that is currently there. As far as thinning out the property and trying to add more trails into at least that specific property in the trail map that you and I are looking at right now, I think you can eventually… if we tried to open it up anymore, it’s just gonna be…

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Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

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James Wheeler: like your main trails there, which are 10 and 11, and even floating into 8 and 9 that you’re looking at, you’re just going to have an open hillside, and I don’t think anyone would enjoy that. So trying to keep everything off to that right-hand side of the property, the north end of the property, leaving, like, a little bit of a wooded feel, and having the skate park up above there, I think that’s very important.

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Stuart Winchester: Yep.

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Stuart Winchester: Right.

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James Wheeler: to stay. However, we would love to invest in more property, um, going down the southern side of the hill, as long as it can work out. I’m not going to say that that’s going to be anything in the near future. However, we would love to do that and expand this mountain south a little bit, and be able to give people more trails, and.

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Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

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James Wheeler: just a bigger chunk of property to, you know, ski on, because obviously Stockenberg is a smaller ski center for the area. However, it was still widely recognized. As you know, it’s been such a hit after talking to everyone about bringing it back, so…

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Stuart Winchester: So I brought up the Google map here, James, for…

00:25:46.000 --> 00:26:02.000

James Wheeler: Yes, and you should be able to see on that too quite a bit. I’m sorry to interrupt. Yes, you mentioned the mowing and whatnot. There has been almost no mowing done. It is completely overgrown. We actually spent a lot of time this past weekend doing a lot of mowing and cleaning up.

00:25:49.000 --> 00:25:51.000

Stuart Winchester: Yeah.

00:25:52.000 --> 00:25:54.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

00:25:54.000 --> 00:25:56.000

Stuart Winchester: Okay.

00:26:02.000 --> 00:26:05.000

James Wheeler: And the weeds are 5 feet tall, so…

00:26:04.000 --> 00:26:06.000

Stuart Winchester: Oh, wow.

00:26:05.000 --> 00:26:18.000

James Wheeler: it’s been crazy. So, you can see in the top corner of that hill, there was, like, a random spot that was mowed for, I’m assuming, hunting purposes. Um, but other than that, it has been completely left to just overgrowth.

00:26:09.000 --> 00:26:10.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

00:26:13.000 --> 00:26:14.000

Stuart Winchester: Okay.

00:26:17.000 --> 00:26:30.000

Stuart Winchester: So you can see Sagenberg, the developed ski area, is on just a portion of this large ridge that humps up. It’s very, uh, it’s a very western New York feature, these glacial ridges here. So how much property.

00:26:30.000 --> 00:26:43.000

Stuart Winchester: does your family own here, James? And you suggested maybe there were expansion opportunities to the south here. Can you just tell us a little bit about what you have now, and what the potential in the future is?

00:26:43.000 --> 00:27:01.000

James Wheeler: So, looking at that map that you’re seeing, uh, most of our property is honestly that hill that you’re directly seeing with the ski trails. It does butt up to the right-hand side in the top corner just a little bit. Um, where it flattens out, it’s less, you know, you can’t really ski on it because it’s just too flat, and the trails just aren’t there.

00:26:48.000 --> 00:26:50.000

Stuart Winchester: Okay.

00:26:50.000 --> 00:26:52.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

00:27:01.000 --> 00:27:14.000

James Wheeler: Um, and then across the road where the pump house is and the parking lot is, we have some property over there. It’s a total of 156 acres, uh, give or take just a little bit. I think it’s, like, 156.7.

00:27:14.000 --> 00:27:31.000

James Wheeler: Um, and then for future expansion, obviously this is just a very vague topic right now. Everything is still privately owned, and we would love to explore the option of moving south a little bit. There’s some larger chunks of property, which is great about Tongenberg Road.

00:27:31.000 --> 00:27:46.000

James Wheeler: is it’s mostly large chunks. There’s some houses at the base of the hill, off to the south side of the property. However, up on the hill, it’s mainly 60-acre chunks, 40-acre chunks, like, stuff like that. And we would love to talk to those neighbors, um, and see if they would ever.

00:27:46.000 --> 00:27:48.000

James Wheeler: Be interested in that.

00:27:47.000 --> 00:27:49.000

Stuart Winchester: And it really…

00:27:49.000 --> 00:28:03.000

Stuart Winchester: looks like great ski terrain. Toga’s a great ski mountain, and this looks like about the same pitch and height. So that’s fantastic, James, and I’m sure the Toggenberg skiers are gonna be excited if you bring it back, no matter what state, but it sounds like.

00:28:03.000 --> 00:28:21.000

Stuart Winchester: the Wheeler family is going in this in a very ambitious way. You know, I talked to, uh, John Meyer in 2021, and he’s the fellow who owns Greek Peak, and he had owned Taugenberg, and he sold it, uh, to the fellow who closed it. Uh, John Meyer gave me a number in 2021. He… he estimated that it would be $10 million.

00:28:10.000 --> 00:28:12.000

James Wheeler: Absolutely.

00:28:21.000 --> 00:28:35.000

Stuart Winchester: to bring it up to, quote, standard. He didn’t say exactly what standard was, but to modernize the mountain. By my calculations, that’s around $12.3 million in today’s dollars, since that figure was 5 years ago. Do you have a number.

00:28:35.000 --> 00:28:43.000

Stuart Winchester: that you’ve estimated for how much it’s going… you’re gonna have to invest into Toggenberg just to get it running again?

00:28:43.000 --> 00:29:01.000

James Wheeler: So, honestly, as a lot of people know, and I mean, just to, again, clear up some unanswered questions that a lot of people have, there’s so many things that we weren’t able to test prior to the purchase. We took a huge gamble on this, knowing that the town is.

00:29:01.000 --> 00:29:17.000

James Wheeler: behind us, and willing to support us, and all the people are ready, and willing to, you know, help us in every way possible. Um, I will say that it’s going to be millions and millions of dollars. There’s no getting around that. However, until I’m able to fully test the lifts, and fully test the pumps, and.

00:29:17.000 --> 00:29:31.000

James Wheeler: um, the lighting and everything on the hill, it’s all, it’s all question marks right now. Um, so until we’re able to determine that, I don’t want to throw out any numbers, because I could be off by, uh, such a great amount. But it’s definitely going to be millions, there’s no disputing that.

00:29:28.000 --> 00:29:29.000

Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm. Good.

00:29:31.000 --> 00:29:36.000

Stuart Winchester: So the, uh, the argument for closing Toggenberg was that…

00:29:36.000 --> 00:29:54.000

Stuart Winchester: there had been a declining population in central New York, uh, in Syracuse area, and that there was more competition for people’s time than there once was. Uh, and certainly the latter is, is true when you look at everything from travel hockey to Netflix to video games, uh, people have a lot of ways to spend their time.

00:29:51.000 --> 00:29:53.000

James Wheeler: Absolutely.

00:29:54.000 --> 00:30:01.000

Stuart Winchester: Um, obviously, you think differently, so what’s given your family confidence that there is indeed.

00:30:01.000 --> 00:30:18.000

Stuart Winchester: room for another large ski center, because you have Labrador and Song right there, which the fellow who had bought Toggenberg owned, and closed Tog thinking that they would be busier, but you’re gonna make a go for it, so what gives you that confidence that, yes, there is a market for Toggenberg as a ski center?

00:30:05.000 --> 00:30:06.000

James Wheeler: Absolutely.

00:30:19.000 --> 00:30:38.000

James Wheeler: So, I think that the idea of people being distracted by, whether that’s video games or Netflix, or honestly just the need to work more nowadays with the cost of living being so high, that argument’s 100% there. You guys are 100% right, there’s less people getting outdoors and doing that type of stuff, and that’s unfortunate. I would hope that.

00:30:38.000 --> 00:30:54.000

James Wheeler: we can slowly turn that around and get more people outside doing these outdoor activities. As much as I’m not personally a skier, I have a ton of outdoor hobbies that I enjoy. Um, however, just the argument that there’s not enough support to, you know.

00:30:54.000 --> 00:31:06.000

James Wheeler: have 3 ski centers in this area within 15 to 20 minutes of each other. I don’t think that’s necessarily an accurate statement, just due to… look at the time frame that, you know, Taugenberg was open.

00:31:06.000 --> 00:31:17.000

James Wheeler: it was, I think, 68 years, I believe? I think that was the actual time, and yeah, it never went bankrupt, there was never a struggle, there was… there was no issues, it was owned…

00:31:09.000 --> 00:31:11.000

Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm, yeah.

00:31:11.000 --> 00:31:13.000

Stuart Winchester: Yeah.

00:31:17.000 --> 00:31:27.000

James Wheeler: the whole time, and operated successfully the whole time with zero problems. And all the other ski centers in the area, um, did the exact same thing. Like, there is…

00:31:27.000 --> 00:31:44.000

James Wheeler: enough love and enough diversity, I would say, in the skiing community to be able to accept people in every single ski area. The thing that Tongenberg offers that a lot of the local ski centers, I don’t want to say can’t offer, because they absolutely do, but is a little more accommodating for at Tongenberg, is.

00:31:43.000 --> 00:31:44.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

00:31:44.000 --> 00:32:02.000

James Wheeler: uh, the beginning, uh, the beginners in the skiing industry, whether that is children or even adults learning how to ski, the bunny hills at Tigerberg, those training hills, and the ski schools were just so well loved. Uh, being that what we talked about earlier, those rope tows to be able to get you up the bunny hills, so you’re not.

00:32:02.000 --> 00:32:21.000

James Wheeler: you’re not walking, you’re not trekking up the hill. It’s all right there, it’s all accommodating, and there’s actually room for growth inside of that as well, if we feel as though that’s needed to expand some of the bunny hills. Tonkinburg had a great school program with all the local schools, and that is one thing that I can definitely say we’ve been reached out to by numerous schools.

00:32:21.000 --> 00:32:39.000

James Wheeler: Um, since announcing the closing, however, even beforehand, the people that did know about it, they were so excited to be able to bring, uh, the school programs back to Toggenberg, because it was so… it was closer to a lot of the schools that are able to accommodate that, whether that’s Fayetteville Manlius, or Cazenovia.

00:32:39.000 --> 00:32:44.000

James Wheeler: Um, or even going a little bit more north of that, towards the Syracuse area, JD. Um…

00:32:44.000 --> 00:33:01.000

James Wheeler: And I will say, I mean, that has just been something that has given us some reassurance, knowing that we’ve got the schools behind us and all the beginners. Everyone’s got to start somewhere. And so many people started at Toggenberg and then expand to the larger mountains from there. Labrador and Song are absolutely a little bit bigger than Tog.

00:33:01.000 --> 00:33:16.000

James Wheeler: And they are more for your skilled skiers, where people that need to start and learn, they might be a little ambitious to start at Labrador Song, like so many of these viewers know. I mean, they’re much steeper hills, some of them, or they’re not as accommodating for.

00:33:16.000 --> 00:33:23.000

James Wheeler: beginners because they’re longer runs. And I think that everyone can agree to that.

00:33:23.000 --> 00:33:26.000

Stuart Winchester: So, James, uh…

00:33:26.000 --> 00:33:28.000

Stuart Winchester: Tell us a little bit.

00:33:28.000 --> 00:33:29.000

Stuart Winchester: about…

00:33:29.000 --> 00:33:44.000

Stuart Winchester: I heard some references from Doug or someone else associated with this, that there may be opportunities for activities beyond just skiing. You’re looking at year-round stuff. What do you have in mind?

00:33:43.000 --> 00:34:03.000

James Wheeler: You’re absolutely right. So, I think that is one thing in this specific area. Um, we’re not as north as the Adirondacks, um, or even, you know, out of the state, going towards the Vermont area or out west. Um, skiing is a very limited window here. We’ve got to push as many people into the mountain in a 3-month time as we can get it.

00:34:03.000 --> 00:34:20.000

James Wheeler: So I think like everyone has kind of learned in this area, the best way to keep a ski center open and successful every single season is by having summer activities. Tongenberg never did anything throughout the summer. The bar was never open.

00:34:18.000 --> 00:34:19.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

00:34:20.000 --> 00:34:30.000

James Wheeler: there was no outdoor activities to do throughout the summer, and I think that there’s a huge missed opportunity there. We are looking into, you know.

00:34:30.000 --> 00:34:43.000

James Wheeler: Mountain biking trails, I’m not going to say that that’s a guarantee as of right now, but we’re exploring that. I have had countless people reach out asking if we would be willing to put those in. We’ve got a huge chunk of state land south of Tonga, or uh…

00:34:34.000 --> 00:34:36.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

00:34:43.000 --> 00:34:59.000

James Wheeler: Uh, yeah, a little bit south of Tongenberg, actually. It’s called Morgan Hill State Forest, and there’s mountain bike trails through there, and it is so populated. People go in there all the time, but being able to have, you know, something for the more skilled mountain bikers… Morgan Hill is not as steep, where this would be a.

00:34:59.000 --> 00:35:14.000

James Wheeler: Obviously, a ski center is super steep grounds. Also, expanding the bar and being able to accommodate that year-round, maybe not every day, but at least a couple days a week throughout the summer and throughout the fall, I think is definitely an opportunity that we can give to the public.

00:35:14.000 --> 00:35:31.000

James Wheeler: we can try it. I mean, it doesn’t hurt to try it and see if the people would like that. There’s nowhere local, you have to drive 15 to 20 minutes to be able to sit down and have a decent dinner, unless you want, like, a gas station pizza, obviously. So being able to service those needs in this area.

00:35:31.000 --> 00:35:37.000

James Wheeler: we’ve got plenty of population for it, and the Foggy Goggle had so many well-recognized, uh.

00:35:37.000 --> 00:35:52.000

James Wheeler: food choices or desserts that were there that were so loved, I think there’s plenty of people that would be able to service that. Also, to expand on that, we are business owners in other industries, and we are going to use that property.

00:35:52.000 --> 00:36:07.000

James Wheeler: Um, not specifically where the ski mountain is, but there’s a small parcel, uh, north of the actual mountain. There’s a field there. And we would hope to. It’s definitely not set in stone right now, but we would hope to expand right there and move our other locations down there.

00:36:07.000 --> 00:36:24.000

James Wheeler: And be able to, you know, have everything in one central location, so that way, if we do need to do anything, or accommodate, um, venues or something along those lines throughout the summer, our businesses are right there to help out with that, um, accommodate for parking right there, and any other needs that the ski center may have throughout the summer.

00:36:24.000 --> 00:36:39.000

Stuart Winchester: So James, let’s get into that a little bit because I think that’s an important point that the Wheeler family owns multiple businesses in the area and is established as responsible business owners, right? Because I said you’re not skiers and that’s fine.

00:36:37.000 --> 00:36:38.000

James Wheeler: Absolutely.

00:36:39.000 --> 00:36:55.000

Stuart Winchester: Fine. There’s plenty of ski area owners who are not skiers. I’ll give you one example is Charles Jefferson, who owns the Montage ski area in Scranton, Pennsylvania. He, he’s a developer and, and he saw that Montage wasn’t doing well. He purchased it. I think he’s done a great job fixing it.

00:36:50.000 --> 00:36:51.000

James Wheeler: Right.

00:36:55.000 --> 00:37:10.000

Stuart Winchester: Uh, and, and we’ve also seen, uh, the model where there are folks who own other businesses, they buy a skier that needs a lot of help. Titus, uh, up in the Adirondacks is one example. Holiday Mountain down in the Catskills is another example of, of.

00:37:10.000 --> 00:37:21.000

Stuart Winchester: guys who were successful businessmen, and they had, you know, they both happened to be in, like, oil and gas, uh, Mike, uh, Mike Taylor and, uh, and Bruce Monet up in Titus, but, but…

00:37:21.000 --> 00:37:23.000

Stuart Winchester: They…

00:37:23.000 --> 00:37:38.000

Stuart Winchester: Were a, that gave them a little bit of latitude to invest some outside funds into the mountain to begin with. So just tell us what you can about your family’s businesses and how those might give you the resources and, and also the.

00:37:39.000 --> 00:37:45.000

Stuart Winchester: the experience to be able to take on a project like this, like Toggenberg?

00:37:45.000 --> 00:38:01.000

James Wheeler: Absolutely. So like you mentioned, I mean, it’s no secret. We are definitely, we’re not big skiers. It’s not why we got into this. A lot of why we got into this was the family passion for having the property back in our name. However, yes, we are.

00:38:01.000 --> 00:38:18.000

James Wheeler: Uh, we own a sign company and an apparel company, Patriot Prints, and a repair shop, Patriot Diesel and Auto. And then I started an excavation company when I was 18, um, where I still… I just got done looking at a job before I jumped on this meeting. And that gives us a lot of the resources we’re gonna need to tackle this project.

00:38:18.000 --> 00:38:29.000

James Wheeler: Um, we’re gonna have to dig up piping and replace that, like we had mentioned. Uh, hanging lights and whatnot, we’ve got bucket trucks. Uh, and like you mentioned, there’s gonna be…

00:38:29.000 --> 00:38:41.000

James Wheeler: Toggenberg’s not gonna have any revenue coming in for a long time, so we’re gonna need to pump money in from somewhere, and we absolutely know that we have funds coming in from those other businesses that we can allocate to this project for a while.

00:38:41.000 --> 00:38:56.000

James Wheeler: And we are super excited to be able to offer that to the public. We kind of want to be that one-stop shop, as much as we’re not necessarily a huge corporation. I don’t… I wouldn’t want to be, to be honest with you. I don’t want to be a faceless owner.

00:38:56.000 --> 00:39:15.000

James Wheeler: And I know my father feels the exact same way. We want to be involved at all times. I want people to walk through the door and see me there, and be able to ask me questions, and see how it’s going. We had a couple people stop in yesterday, just to see what was going on, and they asked, like, are we… are you guys working for the Wheelers? We’re like, absolutely not, we are the Wheelers. Like, you are seeing us actually do the work. We are here.

00:39:15.000 --> 00:39:28.000

James Wheeler: And we want people to know who we are. So, as much as we like to stay behind the scenes and do a lot of the work, because that’s how a lot of this stuff gets done, I do not want people to ever wonder who I am, and that’s why I’ve been able to.

00:39:28.000 --> 00:39:40.000

James Wheeler: jump on these podcasts or these news interviews. I don’t want to be a ghost, and I don’t think that’s going to get us anywhere either. So, being as forthcoming and as public as I can with everything.

00:39:33.000 --> 00:39:35.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

00:39:40.000 --> 00:39:56.000

James Wheeler: Uh, that is absolutely what we’re going to be doing, is using those funds to help rebuild, um, using the resources around us. We’re going to start to pursue, uh, partnerships. I don’t want to say investors or anything, but partnering up with some of the local businesses.

00:39:56.000 --> 00:40:14.000

James Wheeler: that want to help donate some of their time. I’m very close to the local contractor that wants to be a huge part of building any new buildings or remodeling anything that needs to be there, and in turn for that, we’re going to advertise for him as much as possible, having signs out by the road throughout the rebuilding process, posts on social media.

00:40:14.000 --> 00:40:30.000

James Wheeler: And advertisement on the hill. And then we definitely plan, and I will tell you this, that we definitely plan on having a dedication wall to all people that helped out. Whether that’s water needs, construction needs, the building supplies themselves, we wanna make sure that those people are recognized permanently.

00:40:22.000 --> 00:40:23.000

Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Okay.

00:40:30.000 --> 00:40:42.000

James Wheeler: Um, at Taghenberg, because after all, it is going to be a community project. This is not just the wheelers. The wheelers are getting this started, however, this is truly going to be the local and surrounding areas bringing this back.

00:40:42.000 --> 00:40:57.000

James Wheeler: And I wouldn’t be able to do it myself. My father and I, and our whole family, my sister included, we would not be able to, uh, tackle this by ourselves. We need the people around us, and we’re very fortunate for having those… the resources, whether that’s equipment or.

00:40:57.000 --> 00:41:03.000

James Wheeler: people and the friends and family that we have around us supporting us. We are beyond blessed to have that.

00:40:58.000 --> 00:40:59.000

Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.

00:41:02.000 --> 00:41:13.000

Stuart Winchester: So, so let’s talk about Doug for a minute, your father. I, I had a really good conversation with him yesterday, and he said, I, look, I’m not doing public-facing, on-video interviews. James is gonna be the face of this thing.

00:41:12.000 --> 00:41:13.000

James Wheeler: Absolutely.

00:41:13.000 --> 00:41:29.000

Stuart Winchester: But we had a good talk, and I have to say that he sounded so excited by the challenge of getting all this machinery running, and he mentioned he was a master mechanic and had owned some auto repair businesses. Tell us about your father.

00:41:25.000 --> 00:41:27.000

James Wheeler: Absolutely.

00:41:29.000 --> 00:41:34.000

Stuart Winchester: And and his skill set and also just the energy and what it’s like to be around him.

00:41:34.000 --> 00:41:49.000

James Wheeler: So, what I will say about my father is he’s… when… I know I just spoke about being, like, faceless and whatnot, and he is absolutely not going to be a faceless owner. He is just so busy tying up, uh, his time into the other companies, and into, you know, starting to explore.

00:41:44.000 --> 00:41:45.000

Stuart Winchester: Okay.

00:41:49.000 --> 00:42:05.000

James Wheeler: Uh, the cables for the lifts, and liquor licenses, and food inspections, all those types of things. He is starting all that process already, which is why I am taking over, um, doing, you know, the in-person interactions a lot of the time, or doing these interviews. Um, however, yeah, my father, he is…

00:42:01.000 --> 00:42:02.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

00:42:05.000 --> 00:42:23.000

James Wheeler: he’s unstoppable. There’s no… no getting around that. He is… he is a master tech, like you mentioned. He’s been an auto mechanic his whole life. And he is, uh… before that, he built… or he did construction, he built houses. And he is, uh, absolutely the person for this project. He’s a jack-of-all-trades, for sure.

00:42:07.000 --> 00:42:08.000

Stuart Winchester: Yeah.

00:42:21.000 --> 00:42:22.000

Stuart Winchester: Yep.

00:42:23.000 --> 00:42:28.000

James Wheeler: And he’s the type of guy, if you bet against him, he’ll prove you wrong just to prove a point.

00:42:28.000 --> 00:42:44.000

James Wheeler: So I think the very few comments that we’ve had about it’ll never return or it’s not possible, that just fuels him. But there’s truly, I mean, I’ve learned everything that I know from him as far as mechanical skills and he.

00:42:44.000 --> 00:43:07.000

James Wheeler: Every time I literally think like, oh, we need to call someone and ask them for help. No, he knows it. He just truly knows a little bit about everything. So he’s very excited for the, like you mentioned, the actual rebuilding processes, getting the equipment up and running. He’s super excited to get that hill charged and find the leaks and get a plan and build a map of what needs to be taken care of and then the lift motors.

00:42:50.000 --> 00:42:51.000

Stuart Winchester: Thank you.

00:42:57.000 --> 00:42:58.000

Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Okay.

00:43:07.000 --> 00:43:19.000

James Wheeler: there’s nothing that he can’t rebuild that’s, uh, runs on diesel fuel or gasoline, that’s for sure. So, there’s, uh, there’s no, no concerns there for, uh, for, uh, any of the people that are wondering, so.

00:43:19.000 --> 00:43:26.000

Stuart Winchester: That’s incredible. All right, James, leave us with this. What can you give us in the way of a…

00:43:26.000 --> 00:43:44.000

Stuart Winchester: anticipated timeline, and you know, again, you bought this thing 4 or 5 days ago, so I’m not gonna hold you to this, but just for aspirational purposes, what are you hoping for as far as reopening the restaurant, reopening the ski hill.

00:43:44.000 --> 00:43:47.000

Stuart Winchester: Whatever other milestones you may see in there.

00:43:47.000 --> 00:44:02.000

James Wheeler: So, I will be vague in what I’m saying here. It could be a completely different, uh, timeframe than what I’m hoping for. A lot of people keep throwing around the 2027-2028 ski season for a reopening timeframe.

00:43:55.000 --> 00:43:56.000

Stuart Winchester: Fair.

00:44:00.000 --> 00:44:02.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

00:44:02.000 --> 00:44:11.000

James Wheeler: We mentioned those numbers back in the springtime, when we thought we were going to be closing and getting everything finished up. Obviously, we’re 6 months behind that.

00:44:05.000 --> 00:44:06.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

00:44:11.000 --> 00:44:29.000

James Wheeler: Um, we are going to do everything in our power to have it reopen by that time frame, but as we just discussed throughout this whole podcast, there’s so many unanswered questions that have to be figured out still, and we’ve spent the last 3 days just mowing and cleaning up around the property, just to be able to get into the buildings that we need to get into.

00:44:28.000 --> 00:44:29.000

Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Okay.

00:44:29.000 --> 00:44:35.000

James Wheeler: to start checking stuff out. So that is our goal, as far as the actual entire ski mountain would be.

00:44:35.000 --> 00:44:49.000

James Wheeler: Um, as far as the bar and restaurant, I know I mentioned that I’d like to have that open sooner. I would love to see that open in 6 to 8 months, a little bit before. It’s never… I don’t see any way that it would be the springtime.

00:44:49.000 --> 00:45:06.000

James Wheeler: However, towards the fall, as it starts to get closer towards that ski season, if it’s possible, I would absolutely love to do it. And I will keep everyone updated. We did start a social media, um, channel called Taugenberg Revival. That’s on Facebook and Instagram right now. We are in the process. I’ve got a, uh…

00:45:06.000 --> 00:45:18.000

James Wheeler: person on my staff that does photography. They work for us full-time. We will be documenting and doing videos of this whole project, and we are in the works of starting a YouTube channel where people can follow along and see all the progress that we’re doing.

00:45:08.000 --> 00:45:09.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

00:45:18.000 --> 00:45:35.000

James Wheeler: And we will keep everyone updated on that if timeframes start to come sooner than expected, or if they are unfortunately going to be delayed. I don’t have a concern of people starting to get burnt out, though, because after all, it’s been 5 years already, and they’re just as excited now as they were the day that it closed.

00:45:35.000 --> 00:45:43.000

James Wheeler: So I think people will be a little disappointed if we can’t do it for next season, but I think they understand the task that’s against us, so…

00:45:42.000 --> 00:45:59.000

Stuart Winchester: I, I will say based on the ski area rebuilds that I’ve seen around the country, once new owners get in and the intent and the energy is there, I, I think you’ll find that people will give you a lot of grace. Uh, Hatley Point down in North Carolina was purchased by a couple.

00:45:59.000 --> 00:46:04.000

Stuart Winchester: it was known as Wolf Ridge before, and they actually had to… they wanted to get it open.

00:46:04.000 --> 00:46:20.000

Stuart Winchester: For the next winter and they weren’t able to, they actually just closed it completely for one winter because they, it just needed so much work and people were just so glad because when it came back, it was so much better than it was before. So I, listen, I like the plan. I got, I have one crazy question for you.

00:46:11.000 --> 00:46:13.000

James Wheeler: Right.

00:46:20.000 --> 00:46:23.000

Stuart Winchester: Does your family still do goats?

00:46:23.000 --> 00:46:43.000

James Wheeler: I will say we do not own goats yet. However, there’s a lot of people pushing for that, even on our own staff. They want us to get some goats. My girlfriend’s interested in it, and I think it’s something we’re going to have to explore. We don’t do it right now. However, I think having a couple of goats right there around Taugbert, I think it’s almost a necessity at this point.

00:46:32.000 --> 00:46:34.000

Stuart Winchester: Yes.

00:46:43.000 --> 00:46:45.000

Stuart Winchester: Yeah, it’s…

00:46:43.000 --> 00:46:56.000

James Wheeler: Everyone’s so excited, and I… as we talked about, potentially having some, uh, some summer plans there, being able to have some goats and some other animals for people to see, I’m not gonna say it’s out of the picture right now.

00:46:49.000 --> 00:46:51.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

00:46:56.000 --> 00:47:11.000

Stuart Winchester: Yeah, I also asked because, uh, Jay Peak up in Vermont and Mountain Creek down in New Jersey and some other ski areas, they’ll put goats on, and apparently they just destroy the vegetation in a good way. Like, they would mow that whole thing. If you put, you know, 30, 40 goats up there, they take care of that for you.

00:47:06.000 --> 00:47:07.000

James Wheeler: Yeah.

00:47:11.000 --> 00:47:27.000

James Wheeler: That’s what we were talking about. We need to set up a fence line and just have them go up and down the hill mowing it for us so that way we don’t have to. But no, I will say, I’ll leave you guys with this. We will be having Tonganbird merch out this week on the Patriot Prints website. We have a web design guy.

00:47:17.000 --> 00:47:18.000

Stuart Winchester: Yes.

00:47:26.000 --> 00:47:27.000

Stuart Winchester: Oh, cool.

00:47:27.000 --> 00:47:46.000

James Wheeler: that is, uh, working on our pa- or on our actual Tongberg website right now. Uh, we just want to make sure that that is… is accommodating for everyone’s needs right now, because obviously, there’s not going to be skiing this season, so what’s going on the Tongberg website will be updates for events that we’re trying to host sooner than later.

00:47:32.000 --> 00:47:33.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

00:47:46.000 --> 00:47:47.000

Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.

00:47:46.000 --> 00:48:02.000

James Wheeler: Um, and there’s gonna be no shortage of those. I wanna make sure that we can at least get people in there, not necessarily skiing or drinking at the bar, but being able to come there for, um, a holiday party. I don’t know if that’ll be Christmas or New Year’s, or what it’ll be, but some kind of an event that we do.

00:48:02.000 --> 00:48:19.000

James Wheeler: a couple times before we actually get that ski center open. Uh, we’ll make sure to post all that on the social media and the website as it comes, but right now, um, in the moment, what we’re gonna have is a bunch of Tangenberg merch that can get everyone excited, and again, start generating some revenue there as well, so that way.

00:48:19.000 --> 00:48:34.000

James Wheeler: all proceeds, all money made there will be going directly to the reopening of TOG, and I think if I haven’t made that clear enough to everyone, a lot of people know that, but all of the money that you spend in the other companies right now will be pumped directly back into the reopening of this mountain.

00:48:34.000 --> 00:48:49.000

Stuart Winchester: Love it. This conversation got me so fired up, James. I am all in on your vision. I appreciate it. I hope that you will come back on the pod every now and then throughout this process to give us some updates. You absolutely crushed it. Thank you for coming on last minute. And best of luck.

00:48:48.000 --> 00:48:50.000

James Wheeler: Well, thank you very much.

00:48:49.000 --> 00:48:59.000

Stuart Winchester: with, uh, with the revitalization of TOG. This is, uh, really, really exciting news, and… and I think that it sounds like the right family got a hold of it, so… so best of luck, congratulations.

00:48:59.000 --> 00:49:01.000

James Wheeler: Thank you very much. I appreciate you having me.

00:49:01.000 --> 00:49:03.000

Stuart Winchester: You got it. Talk soon.

00:49:02.000 --> 00:49:04.000

James Wheeler: Yes, sir. Thank you.

Get full access to The Storm Skiing Journal and Podcast at https://www.stormskiing.com/subscribe

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Who

Ben Doornbos, General Manager of Nub’s Nob, Michigan

Date Recorded

October 15, 2026

About Nub’s Nob

Owned by: The Fisher Family

Year founded: 1958

Pass affiliations:

* Indy Pass: 2 days, select blackouts

* Indy+ Pass: 2 days, no blackouts

Base elevation: 923 feet

Summit elevation: 1,350 feet

Vertical drop: 427 feet

Skiable acres: 248

Average annual snowfall: 125 inches

Lift count: 10 (4 fixed-grip quads, 3 triples, 1 double, 1 carpet, 1 ropetow)

Nub’s Nordic map also shows a pretty cool overhead of how all the lifts match up with a topo map:

Why I interviewed him

Nub’s Nob is basically the Jay Peak/Wolf Creek/Mt. Baker/Bridger Bowl/Alta/Jackson Hole/Mount Bohemia/Mad River Glen of Michigan’s Lower Peninsula. By that I mean it is a ski area with loyalists so fiercely devoted to the place that if a Random Internet Commenter dares offer an opinion that said ski area is anything other than a snowy Narnia dreamed up by and for Jesus as a reward for having endured human existence on Earth then that Random Internet Commenter shall have unspeakable crimes attributed to their name with such persistence and gruesome detail that the accused while innocent will come to believe themselves guilty and seek out an active caldera in which to hurl themselves. It’s hard to understand until you ski there but hard to not understand once you have. And lest I enrage the Nub’s partisans who will attempt to read into the nuances of this conversation some dastardly plot to tar the name of Nub’s by for example pointing out the true age of Purple chair I will just state unambiguously that The Storm has been a House of Nub’s fan since 1995 even though I spent half my inaugural visit tumbling down Chute like a beachball and am frankly still slightly terrified any time I glance at the trailmap believing subconsciously that it was not a lack of skill as a result of being on my seventh-ever ski day that caused my cyclical pinwheeling but rather an attribute of that trail that uniquely exposed my lack of ability to SnoSportSki and no amount of experience or preparation will save me. And I think this even though I have since skied Chute and all adjacent trails many times without dismembering myself. And no Nub’s Knob I am not dissing Nub’s just myself McBroseph so chill.

Transcripts

There is only one transcript today, which you may or may not be able to view at the top of this article, depending upon your browser and device. This is the transcript that the robots create when I upload the podcast to the internet. The cool thing about it is that you can click on any block of text and the audio will teleport there instantly. The uncool thing about this transcript is that it does not indicate who is talking at any given moment. There is no Zoom transcript today because Zoom didn’t work right. Just kidding there is no Zoom transcript because see the part where my brain isn’t good.

Get full access to The Storm Skiing Journal and Podcast at https://www.stormskiing.com/subscribe

Word.

Who

Dave Rathbun, CEO of Purgatory, Colorado

Check out Dave’s Purgspective mountain blog:

Date Recorded

Oct. 14, 2026

About Purgatory

Owned by: Mountain Capital Partners, which also owns:

Year founded: 1965

Pass affiliations:

* Power Pass: unlimited

* Power Pass Select: 12 shared days with Arizona Snowbowl, Lee Canyon – holiday blackouts apply

* Power Pass Core: 4 shared days with Arizona Snowbowl, Lee Canyon, Brian Head – holiday blackouts apply

Base elevation: 8,750 feet

Summit elevation: 10,822 feet

Vertical drop: 2,072 feet

Skiable acres: 1,635

Average annual snowfall: 261 inches

Lift count: 12 (1 six-pack, 2 high-speed quads, 4 triples, 3 doubles, 2 carpets)

This video gives a pretty sick look down the steep lift line:

And here’s a bit on the Divinity snowmaking expansion:

Why I interviewed him

Purgatory has everything we’re looking for in a modern lift-served ski area attempting to stay relevant in a changing world: an eclectic owner, a multi-mountain pass, wacky lift ticket deals, high-elevation snowmaking, trail expansions, fast lifts, slow lifts, lifts glued together from the discarded parts of other lifts, lifts that predate the invention of the alphabet, private land, public land, places to stay on the mountain, a hip town nearby, and big plans colliding with big bureaucracy. And it’s in Colorado but also sort of not because how do you even get to Southwest Colorado unless you’re driving up from Texas?

Transcripts

There are two transcripts. Both are generated by robots. Both are helpful and defective in their own unique ways. I do not proofread either of them.

Transcript 1: Click the “transcript” button at the top of this article. You can only see this transcript on a computer. Because I don’t know why exactly but everything is getting better and dumber all at once it seems. Anyway, this is the transcript that the robots create when I upload the podcast to the internet. The cool thing about it is that you can click on any block of text and the audio will teleport there instantly. The uncool thing about this transcript is that it does not indicate who is talking at any given moment.

Transcript 2: You can read this below. This is the transcript that Zoom creates as we record the podcast. The cool thing about this transcript is that it indicates who is talking at any given moment. The uncool thing about this transcript is that the timestamps do not match the audio. Also, you cannot click on this text to move to the associated point in the audio.

Zoom

Stuart Winchester: My guest today is the CEO of Purgatory Resort Holdings. Purgatory delivers a 2,072-foot vertical drop over 1,635 skiable acres served by 12 lifts, including a brand new triple chair for winter 2026-27.

00:28:29.000 --> 00:28:38.000

Stuart Winchester: Since 2015, Purgatory has been owned by Mountain Capital Partners, which operates 11 active ski areas in the United States and Chile.

00:28:38.000 --> 00:28:54.000

Stuart Winchester: Prior to his promotion to the CEO role last year, he was Purgatory’s general manager for eight seasons. Prior to joining the team at Purgatory, he was chief marketing officer at Sugar Bowl California for two years and spent eight years as president and general manager of Mount Bachelor Oregon.

00:28:54.000 --> 00:29:03.000

Stuart Winchester: He has also spent time at Killington, Stratton, and IntraWest. Dave Rathbun is my guest. Dave, welcome to the Storm. Did I get your last name right?

00:29:03.000 --> 00:29:09.000

Dave Rathbun: Absolutely, Stuart. I am just thrilled to be here with you today.

00:29:09.000 --> 00:29:21.000

Stuart Winchester: Uh, that’s one of those things I’m always like, okay, ask him about his last name before you introduce him, and then I didn’t, and then I just hope I get it right. So, uh, but just blew my cover there. So, so you have been really busy. Tell us about…

00:29:21.000 --> 00:29:31.000

Stuart Winchester: The Jaland expansion has historically been known, and it’s a really interesting expansion because it’s at once billed as an expert expansion.

00:29:31.000 --> 00:29:37.000

Stuart Winchester: but it’s also kind of for everyone. So take us through this very unique new addition to your mountain this year.

00:29:37.000 --> 00:29:52.000

Dave Rathbun: Yeah, so for those that have been here before, our base area is kind of vertically challenged. We’re in a place where we’re right along US Highway 550 is the literal base of the mountain.

00:29:52.000 --> 00:30:04.000

Dave Rathbun: But there’s about a 200-foot elevation gain to the village right down from the highway, so that… that puts a little extra pressure on forcing people to get up through.

00:29:56.000 --> 00:29:57.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmm.

00:30:04.000 --> 00:30:15.000

Dave Rathbun: what we call our Columbine base area to get to the village. So, as you can imagine, along the highway, it’s nice and flat, that’s where all our parking is.

00:30:15.000 --> 00:30:32.000

Dave Rathbun: And people would park there and have to catch a shuttle bus, or they could walk to the base of the graduate lift, lift 7 on the map you’re showing, and ride that up to the base village, which is where you jump on the six-pack to get you up on the mountain.

00:30:24.000 --> 00:30:25.000

Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.

00:30:32.000 --> 00:30:47.000

Dave Rathbun: So what the Galande and now Colorado Cool War chair will do is it’ll give people, especially pass holders that already have a ticket that don’t require any base services like rentals or.

00:30:47.000 --> 00:30:57.000

Dave Rathbun: hey, I need to stop and get tickets, or I need to, you know, get my ski school lesson started. Those pass holders can go park right at the base of the cool bar chair.

00:30:57.000 --> 00:31:10.000

Dave Rathbun: jump on that lift, get up to the top of the mountain where they can access everything on the front side, and get all the way to the backside lifts as well. So it’s gonna be a… it’s gonna be a dual-purpose lift.

00:31:03.000 --> 00:31:04.000

Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.

00:31:10.000 --> 00:31:15.000

Dave Rathbun: You know, for the really hardcore extreme skier, this is terrain that, uh…

00:31:15.000 --> 00:31:34.000

Dave Rathbun: is absolutely mind-bending, um, for people that are into that sort of thing. Um, it changes the whole game related to our terrain offering here, to cater to that zealot, that really high-end, uh, free skier rider that really is looking for some steep, gnarly terrain.

00:31:19.000 --> 00:31:21.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

00:31:34.000 --> 00:31:45.000

Dave Rathbun: But it’s also gonna make it easy for, you know, your general local to avoid the village and get up on the mountain. So it’s gonna deal with both of those objectives.

00:31:45.000 --> 00:31:54.000

Stuart Winchester: So on this trail map that I’m showing, if you’re watching on stormskiing.com or YouTube at Storm Ski Journal, so this yellow line is your.

00:31:54.000 --> 00:32:02.000

Stuart Winchester: current boundary, and then it looks like that’s going to get pushed out, and the lift will come up from around here. Is that about right?

00:32:02.000 --> 00:32:13.000

Dave Rathbun: Yeah, correct. So the map that you’re showing on the left that I’m seeing, that triangle that’s shaded, that was part of a permit boundary adjustment to accommodate.

00:32:02.000 --> 00:32:04.000

Stuart Winchester: And yeah.

00:32:07.000 --> 00:32:09.000

Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.

00:32:13.000 --> 00:32:18.000

Dave Rathbun: the lift and also the skiing through the canyon.

00:32:17.000 --> 00:32:18.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

00:32:18.000 --> 00:32:19.000

Dave Rathbun: So…

00:32:19.000 --> 00:32:34.000

Dave Rathbun: That boundary is going to move out to that edge along the shaded triangle there. And then we go down onto our private land down below. So again, Forest Service land starts coming out of the base area, and then.

00:32:34.000 --> 00:32:37.000

Dave Rathbun: Private land all below that.

00:32:36.000 --> 00:32:52.000

Stuart Winchester: So I wonder if you’re gonna have a challenge, and maybe this is something I’m sure some of you’ve already thought of, but I’m sure you’ve been to Taos, and you see that great sign at the beginning that says, don’t worry, we have lots of expert runs, too, because you see Al’s running super steep. Do you worry that people are gonna park in the parking lot and say.

00:32:52.000 --> 00:33:05.000

Stuart Winchester: oh my god, because the lift line from the videos I’ve seen is insane, like, really steep. Are you gonna have to train people that there are easy ways, not only from the top, but back at the end of the day?

00:33:05.000 --> 00:33:21.000

Dave Rathbun: It’s funny, we just had a meeting with our patrol leaders this morning talking about this very subject. So, you know, the management plan for this area is completely different. We’re talking about everything from.

00:33:12.000 --> 00:33:14.000

Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.

00:33:21.000 --> 00:33:28.000

Dave Rathbun: The communication side of things, like who should maybe think twice about riding this lift?

00:33:28.000 --> 00:33:45.000

Dave Rathbun: Having the proper signage, and then obviously the snow management, avalanche reduction, you know, lift evacuation in the unlikely event that it should occur. I mean, all of those things are off the wall for this lift. There are only a few places.

00:33:45.000 --> 00:33:49.000

Dave Rathbun: that are operating something this complicated.

00:33:49.000 --> 00:33:50.000

Stuart Winchester: Yeah.

00:33:50.000 --> 00:34:00.000

Stuart Winchester: Given the importance of this as a… not just a terrain lift, but a transit lift, do you plan to run this even when this terrain is not open, so people can just…

00:34:00.000 --> 00:34:02.000

Stuart Winchester: Get right out of the parking lot.

00:34:02.000 --> 00:34:16.000

Dave Rathbun: Yes. So what we’ve talked about is, you know, if say we have a a season like, let’s hope it never happens again, like last year, you know, this terrain might have been available for a few days.

00:34:10.000 --> 00:34:11.000

Stuart Winchester: Yeah, thank you.

00:34:16.000 --> 00:34:32.000

Dave Rathbun: Um, we’re still going to want to operate this on these busier days to get people up and out of the parking lot. So, um, there’s currently no snowmaking at the bottom. We are working on a plan with the Forest Service to get snowmaking down there for next year.

00:34:32.000 --> 00:34:47.000

Dave Rathbun: Um, then we’ll be able to get you on a platform this year with some nevoplast, so you can at least shuffle ahead, get on the lift, and get up on the hill. So, uh, hopefully next year we’ll be able to put snowmaking down to the bottom, and then that run.

00:34:47.000 --> 00:35:02.000

Dave Rathbun: will connect to the bottom of our sticks run, which is another black diamond coming down the shoulder of the front side. And then you’ll be able to ski from there back to the bottom of this lift, which will make it a little bit more sustainable.

00:35:02.000 --> 00:35:17.000

Stuart Winchester: You’ve done a couple big snowmaking projects, and I want to get to those in a minute. Right now, I want to talk a little bit more about the Colorado Coulard chairlift. So, I’ll give you some fun facts, and maybe you already know these. Of the 511 active triple chairs in the United States.

00:35:17.000 --> 00:35:28.000

Stuart Winchester: Colorado Colar will be the 5th tallest with 1,625 vertical feet. You also have the 4th longest triple in needles.

00:35:28.000 --> 00:35:44.000

Stuart Winchester: At 5,798 feet long. And Needles is the 12th longest fixed grip of the 1,445 fixed grip chairs in America. And you also have, interestingly, the 11th shortest triple chair, Columbine.

00:35:44.000 --> 00:35:56.000

Stuart Winchester: Which is 531 feet long, over 72 feet of vert. I’ll just sort of throwing that out there for people who care about that kind of stuff, but I… point is, it’s a very long, tall.

00:35:56.000 --> 00:36:11.000

Stuart Winchester: Triple chair. Talk about the decision to go fixed grip there. And also, I believe this is a hybrid of a Skytrak machine and, and an old lift from Telluride. So, so take us through the decision and, and, and what this lift actually is.

00:36:11.000 --> 00:36:27.000

Dave Rathbun: So first and foremost, it’s not, again, like you said, it’s only a little over 4,000 feet long. So at 500 feet a minute as a fixed grip chair, it’s going to be just under 10 minutes. So, you know, nine minutes.

00:36:17.000 --> 00:36:19.000

Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.

00:36:24.000 --> 00:36:26.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

00:36:27.000 --> 00:36:42.000

Dave Rathbun: You know, you gotta figure for a little bit of, uh, loading accuracy and, you know, maybe slows here and there, but it’s only gonna be about a 9-minute ride. So the question was, for the astronomical cost of putting a detach on this alignment.

00:36:42.000 --> 00:37:00.000

Dave Rathbun: Uh, versus, you know, doing something that our company loves to do. We are recycling an older Lyft that still has a lot of hours and a lot of miles yet to go on it. Um, but what we’ve found is we had to go hybrid on this because of the tension involved.

00:37:00.000 --> 00:37:17.000

Dave Rathbun: So, again, being as steep and as short as this lift is, there are extreme factors on the ground pressure that this lift requires to be able to climb that steep a pitch in that shorter run.

00:37:17.000 --> 00:37:36.000

Dave Rathbun: So, both terminals, the drive terminal and the return terminal, are Skytrak. Um, we reused towers, um, from the plunge lift from Telluride Lift 9. Uh, we also have a few of our old Lift 8 towers that were.

00:37:36.000 --> 00:37:51.000

Dave Rathbun: Pama, much thicker wall, steel tubes, and then all new SkyTrak head frames, shiv assemblies. So it’s a pretty darn modern lift from the head frame up.

00:37:38.000 --> 00:37:40.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

00:37:51.000 --> 00:38:05.000

Dave Rathbun: and the top and the bottom terminals, with mostly towers that have been reused, and chairs, and grips. So, it was a significant savings by going this route. Um, and we’ve got…

00:38:05.000 --> 00:38:10.000

Dave Rathbun: We’ve got a pretty stout lift now that’s gonna go up this pretty rugged face.

00:38:10.000 --> 00:38:27.000

Stuart Winchester: So while we’re on the, the list, the lift topic here, Dave, a blog post from earlier in this last spring or this spring had mentioned a, an upgrade to the Purgatory Express, which for listeners is a 2000 Alpenmeyer six pack.

00:38:27.000 --> 00:38:32.000

Stuart Winchester: With the latest control system, do you have any update on that, and why it was time, and what that will achieve?

00:38:32.000 --> 00:38:50.000

Dave Rathbun: Yeah, and we chose to do that early. We did that in the springtime. So right after we closed, we put in all the new low voltage controls for that lift. So again, that era lift that was pre-Doppelmeyer, so it’s still a CTEK lift, but.

00:38:36.000 --> 00:38:37.000

Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.

00:38:42.000 --> 00:38:44.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

00:38:50.000 --> 00:39:06.000

Dave Rathbun: It is a bomber lift. It just was showing its age from its drive components and obviously the low voltage controls. So changed out the comm line. We had already done an upgrade on some of the terminal equipment. We put a cyclo spacing unit in.

00:39:06.000 --> 00:39:19.000

Dave Rathbun: And all the things that a modern, you know, detach of that size, um, and it’s our workhorse. That’s the main way out of the base area currently. Um, really important lift for Purgatory, and…

00:39:12.000 --> 00:39:13.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

00:39:19.000 --> 00:39:28.000

Dave Rathbun: the time was right, um, we got it done, and that lift, I think, is going to give us another solid 15 or more years.

00:39:27.000 --> 00:39:40.000

Stuart Winchester: So you talked about the cost savings that you got from Colorado Coal Air with combining lifts. What kind of cost savings was it to modernize the 6 rather than replace it? Is that something you even considered?

00:39:30.000 --> 00:39:31.000

Dave Rathbun: Uh…

00:39:40.000 --> 00:39:44.000

Dave Rathbun: Uh, yeah, I mean, you’re talking, um…

00:39:44.000 --> 00:39:49.000

Dave Rathbun: Probably close to $10 million to replace that lift.

00:39:49.000 --> 00:39:55.000

Dave Rathbun: And it’s still, again, a solid lift. We do run it in the summer, so it’s picked up a few extra hours because of summer ops.

00:39:55.000 --> 00:40:11.000

Dave Rathbun: But, you know, by the time everything’s said and done, you spend about a million and a half dollars when you upgrade a lift like that. You know, my experience at Mt. Bachelor, we upgraded every one of those, you know, early to mid 90s detachable quads.

00:40:11.000 --> 00:40:16.000

Dave Rathbun: You know, the plan that we had there was to get them all to 40 years old, and uh…

00:40:15.000 --> 00:40:17.000

Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.

00:40:16.000 --> 00:40:31.000

Dave Rathbun: A couple of them have gotten a little bit longer than 40, but now it’s time for those to go away, so I’m happy to see they’re doing that. But, you know, these lifts, if you take good care of them, there’s no reason why you can’t get 40 years out of them these days.

00:40:30.000 --> 00:40:38.000

Stuart Winchester: Right. And some upgrades happening for sure. The, let’s see if I’m.

00:40:38.000 --> 00:40:53.000

Stuart Winchester: Trying to share the trail map again. Not sure if I did that successfully. I did not. Okay. So, uh, you have some, some that are over 40 here and, and you’ve made some nice upgrades, but Grizzly here is a, is a 1980.

00:40:53.000 --> 00:41:10.000

Stuart Winchester: Riblet, according to Liftblog’s records, Engineer is, uh, 69 Riblet, and then the Twilight Lift is a… is 76 Riblet. So, you know, you have this nice new Legends Express over here, that’s from 2015, but just talk to us about…

00:41:10.000 --> 00:41:23.000

Stuart Winchester: As you think… once you… now that you have this expansion out of the way, what lift would you like to upgrade next? What’s in the plan? I know you had some things in the 2008 Master Plan, but that’s probably been updated since.

00:41:23.000 --> 00:41:35.000

Dave Rathbun: Yeah, so we have two different approvals. We have the 2008 EIS that we’re still working mostly off of.

00:41:35.000 --> 00:41:42.000

Dave Rathbun: That gives us lots of ability to add, um, new lifts on current alignments.

00:41:42.000 --> 00:41:52.000

Dave Rathbun: One new lift on a new alignment. And then we have another EA that was approved in 2019 for what is called Ice Creek.

00:41:51.000 --> 00:41:53.000

Stuart Winchester: Right.

00:41:52.000 --> 00:42:02.000

Dave Rathbun: So, I am working right now with all of our, um, mountain planners and the Forest Service to install Ice Creek next summer.

00:42:02.000 --> 00:42:03.000

Stuart Winchester: Oh, wow.

00:42:02.000 --> 00:42:17.000

Dave Rathbun: So that, again, is a little bit complicated. We have some cultural resources, um, on the map that you’re looking at right there, that the lift would, uh, the top of the lift would be about where the, uh, sea is and backside on that, um.

00:42:15.000 --> 00:42:17.000

Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.

00:42:17.000 --> 00:42:31.000

Dave Rathbun: the big map that you were showing, uh, you’ve got the Ice Creek map right there. So, that’s what we’re looking at doing next year. Um, we’re actually talking about cutting the lift line over snow this winter.

00:42:18.000 --> 00:42:20.000

Stuart Winchester: Yeah.

00:42:21.000 --> 00:42:22.000

Stuart Winchester: Yes.

00:42:30.000 --> 00:42:32.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmm.

00:42:31.000 --> 00:42:48.000

Dave Rathbun: So, the Forest Service has the construction plan in hands. We’re just going through some fine details with that. There is a historic wagon road that runs through this project area. So, we have to be very careful with that. And then, obviously.

00:42:48.000 --> 00:43:01.000

Dave Rathbun: The headwaters of the East Fork of the Hermosa Creek run right through the base of this, so we have lots of water influence zones and wetlands that are.

00:43:01.000 --> 00:43:17.000

Dave Rathbun: you know, an issue to navigate around for a project in this type of zone. So that’s the plan for next year. Cut the lift line over snow this winter to minimize the impact on the wagon road. And then we’ll be doing the trail clearing next summer when we put the lift in.

00:43:17.000 --> 00:43:24.000

Dave Rathbun: So, still a little tentative, but that’s what we’re working on right now for next year.

00:43:23.000 --> 00:43:38.000

Stuart Winchester: What’s the ambition for this? It looks like a fairly small expansion and it’s kind of tucked away from the base. Usually you’d see this for maybe a beginner area. This looks to be Blue Trail. So tell us what you have in mind here and what you hope to achieve and also what kind of lift you are envisioning right here.

00:43:39.000 --> 00:43:53.000

Dave Rathbun: So, it’s a low intermediate area, so that’s one of the areas that has been identified at PERG. We’ve got great, you know, long cruiser intermediate and a little bit higher-end intermediate trails.

00:43:52.000 --> 00:43:54.000

Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.

00:43:53.000 --> 00:43:59.000

Dave Rathbun: We don’t have a great place to go from true beginner down in the Columbine base.

00:43:59.000 --> 00:44:06.000

Dave Rathbun: We’ll talk about the Divinity Pod on Lift 4 next, I’m sure. That’s kind of the next step for beginners.

00:44:02.000 --> 00:44:03.000

Stuart Winchester: Right.

00:44:06.000 --> 00:44:07.000

Stuart Winchester: Hmm. Okay.

00:44:06.000 --> 00:44:20.000

Dave Rathbun: But where do they go next? So that’s what this ice creek pod is designed to be. You can go right from, you can see on this map, the top of lift four is just at the top of that map to the right of the 15.

00:44:19.000 --> 00:44:21.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

00:44:20.000 --> 00:44:28.000

Dave Rathbun: Now you’ll be able to go right over to this pod once you’re ready for the next step up, go to Ice Creek from lift four.

00:44:28.000 --> 00:44:32.000

Dave Rathbun: So that’s the intent there.

00:44:32.000 --> 00:44:46.000

Dave Rathbun: Yeah, it’s beautiful skiing, incredible views looking to the north and looking directly west down this… this unbelievable valley. Talk about, you know, San Juan Mountain, picturesque.

00:44:46.000 --> 00:44:50.000

Stuart Winchester: Is this going to be a new lift, Dave, or are you sourcing it from elsewhere?

00:44:50.000 --> 00:44:58.000

Dave Rathbun: So, we are actually looking at using, um, we haven’t gotten all this finalized yet, but using the REST.

00:44:58.000 --> 00:45:02.000

Dave Rathbun: of Lift 9 plunge from Telluride.

00:45:01.000 --> 00:45:02.000

Stuart Winchester: Oh, cool.

00:45:02.000 --> 00:45:18.000

Dave Rathbun: So our lift maintenance manager and I just went out earlier, this summer, toward the end of the summer, and did a a big inspection of all the remaining lift parts, and we basically have the remainder of a lift there.

00:45:18.000 --> 00:45:35.000

Dave Rathbun: And for those that have ridden the old plunge, there were a lot of towers. And those towers would work fine on this alignment because the ground pressure and the tension required here is far less than what it is on the cool warm.

00:45:18.000 --> 00:45:19.000

Stuart Winchester: Right.

00:45:35.000 --> 00:45:37.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

00:45:36.000 --> 00:45:49.000

Dave Rathbun: So we think we might be able to reuse that whole lift. There are some things that we’re still debating, like, you know, that old plunge lift had a counterweight tensioning system.

00:45:48.000 --> 00:45:49.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

00:45:49.000 --> 00:46:06.000

Dave Rathbun: Does that make sense this day and age? You know, there are some benefits. You know, the line gauge changes if we change those terminals, which means the width of the towers. So that would add a lot of cost if we went to like a SkyTrak approach.

00:46:06.000 --> 00:46:10.000

Dave Rathbun: That would be wider than what this, um…

00:46:10.000 --> 00:46:15.000

Dave Rathbun: the original plunge would be. So we’re looking at all of this.

00:46:15.000 --> 00:46:21.000

Dave Rathbun: Trying to figure out what the the best solution will be, but that’s what we’re working off of right now.

00:46:21.000 --> 00:46:24.000

Stuart Winchester: What’s the vertical here, Dave, approximately?

00:46:23.000 --> 00:46:31.000

Dave Rathbun: So, that one is gonna be, uh, a bit less. I wanna say it’s around 1,100 feet.

00:46:31.000 --> 00:46:39.000

Dave Rathbun: you know, a thousand feet. It’s not… it’s not steep. There is one pretty good cliff that we have to clear, which is…

00:46:39.000 --> 00:46:47.000

Dave Rathbun: Just about where the eye and ice is, right below, that’s a forest service road that it goes across.

00:46:42.000 --> 00:46:43.000

Stuart Winchester: Okay.

00:46:46.000 --> 00:46:47.000

Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.

00:46:47.000 --> 00:46:55.000

Dave Rathbun: So that’s the only kind of challenging part of it. So you’ll pick up like, uh…

00:46:55.000 --> 00:47:00.000

Dave Rathbun: 80 feet right there going up and over a cliff.

00:46:58.000 --> 00:46:59.000

Stuart Winchester: Okay.

00:47:00.000 --> 00:47:03.000

Stuart Winchester: It’ll be a fun Lyft ride, if nothing else.

00:47:00.000 --> 00:47:01.000

Dave Rathbun: So.

00:47:02.000 --> 00:47:08.000

Dave Rathbun: Yeah. Again, you know, we don’t do anything, you know, too simple here at Purgatory.

00:47:07.000 --> 00:47:22.000

Stuart Winchester: Yeah, so just looking far into the future, and not to hold you to this, but just thinking about Grizzly, thinking about Engineer, thinking about Twilight, it seems like from a business point of view, this would probably be the one that would make the most sense.

00:47:22.000 --> 00:47:37.000

Stuart Winchester: to replace next? Maybe you’re hardcore to get more excited about some of these upper mountain lifts, but of these riblets you have left, is there one that you have in mind to go first, and do you have an idea of what you would want to replace them with?

00:47:37.000 --> 00:47:45.000

Dave Rathbun: Yeah, I mean, right now, lift four, which is twilight coming out of the base area.

00:47:40.000 --> 00:47:41.000

Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.

00:47:44.000 --> 00:47:45.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

00:47:45.000 --> 00:48:01.000

Dave Rathbun: Every one of us here is nervous that if something should happen to lift one, you know, we’re left with, significantly less uphill capacity out of the base area. So the plan right now is we are looking at, replacing that.

00:47:56.000 --> 00:47:57.000

Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.

00:48:01.000 --> 00:48:07.000

Dave Rathbun: riblet, double chair, center pole double, with an eight-person gondola.

00:48:02.000 --> 00:48:03.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

00:48:06.000 --> 00:48:08.000

Stuart Winchester: Oh, jeez, okay, cool.

00:48:07.000 --> 00:48:14.000

Dave Rathbun: So, yeah, so that is, again, part of the strategy for that terrain pod.

00:48:13.000 --> 00:48:14.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

00:48:14.000 --> 00:48:20.000

Dave Rathbun: Which would be, as soon as you get your very low-level, level 1, level 2 beginner lessons.

00:48:20.000 --> 00:48:30.000

Dave Rathbun: probably still down in Columbine, you’ll be able to get on that gondola and go up into this, again, a beautiful pod of beginner terrain.

00:48:23.000 --> 00:48:25.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

00:48:30.000 --> 00:48:38.000

Dave Rathbun: served by that lift and be able to have the big San Juan views again.

00:48:37.000 --> 00:48:39.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

00:48:38.000 --> 00:48:50.000

Dave Rathbun: And then the other beauty of this lift is at the end of your lesson or at the end of your experience there, you can ride that gondola back to the base and avoid lower demon.

00:48:48.000 --> 00:48:50.000

Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.

00:48:50.000 --> 00:49:02.000

Dave Rathbun: Uh, for, again, those that know Purgatory, we funnel back pretty heavily down that one trail to the base area, and we have quite a mix of.

00:49:02.000 --> 00:49:06.000

Dave Rathbun: High-end skiers, race team, you know.

00:49:06.000 --> 00:49:11.000

Dave Rathbun: Terrain park riders and beginners. So…

00:49:11.000 --> 00:49:23.000

Dave Rathbun: It’s a… it’s a bit nerve-wracking at times, especially during the holidays, especially right before lunch and toward the end of the day with the mixing that happens on that trail, so…

00:49:23.000 --> 00:49:30.000

Dave Rathbun: That lift eventually could provide those that wanna avoid that experience the opportunity to ride it back to the bottom.

00:49:30.000 --> 00:49:38.000

Dave Rathbun: The other big thing is we have entitlement for a 16,000 square foot lodge at the top of that lift.

00:49:30.000 --> 00:49:32.000

Stuart Winchester: Yeah, that…

00:49:38.000 --> 00:49:43.000

Dave Rathbun: So, picture, you know, right now we have 2 really nice on-mountain lodges.

00:49:43.000 --> 00:49:52.000

Dave Rathbun: Very large, very suitable to meet the needs of our skiers, but none of them are at the top of a lift.

00:49:44.000 --> 00:49:46.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

00:49:52.000 --> 00:50:02.000

Dave Rathbun: So, building a lodge at the top of that gondola would be another game changer for us, especially for events, things like summertime.

00:49:52.000 --> 00:49:53.000

Stuart Winchester: Right.

00:50:02.000 --> 00:50:04.000

Dave Rathbun: et cetera.

00:50:03.000 --> 00:50:12.000

Stuart Winchester: Yeah, I’m a big fan of gondolas around beginner areas. Big Sky just put one in, and Jackson’s had a ton of success with theirs.

00:50:12.000 --> 00:50:23.000

Stuart Winchester: I’m really good at spending other people’s money, so let me ask you, is there a world, since you have these two old double chairs right next to each other, where you take a gondola up here and then angle it to the top of, uh, where Lift 2 is now?

00:50:24.000 --> 00:50:33.000

Dave Rathbun: Probably not. That is… that is something we would have to get entitled. And, uh, you know, we did play around with…

00:50:28.000 --> 00:50:30.000

Stuart Winchester: Right.

00:50:33.000 --> 00:50:48.000

Dave Rathbun: Um, angling something, and actually having a little bit different profile here, but it didn’t work out, but at one point, we looked at that gondola coming out of the base area, having an angle station, and going up toward the top of lift 3.

00:50:39.000 --> 00:50:40.000

Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.

00:50:48.000 --> 00:51:00.000

Dave Rathbun: for most of Park Express. Uh, it’s just, you know, today’s day, we don’t need that. So… but that Lift 4, with a new lodge at the top of it.

00:50:49.000 --> 00:50:50.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

00:51:00.000 --> 00:51:03.000

Dave Rathbun: That would make a lot of sense for us.

00:51:03.000 --> 00:51:05.000

Stuart Winchester: Any kind of timeline on that, Dave?

00:51:05.000 --> 00:51:15.000

Dave Rathbun: So, we’re looking at that. So, again, we’ve got, uh, we’ve got some big mountain bike races coming up here starting in 2028, um, including the World Championships in 2030.

00:51:15.000 --> 00:51:20.000

Dave Rathbun: We would love to have that thing in the summer of 2028.

00:51:20.000 --> 00:51:21.000

Stuart Winchester: So you…

00:51:20.000 --> 00:51:25.000

Dave Rathbun: So, again, I, you know, just like the weather, you know.

00:51:25.000 --> 00:51:35.000

Dave Rathbun: As conditions permit, so as conditions permit, you know, we’ll shoot for summer of ‘28 to put that lift in.

00:51:34.000 --> 00:51:42.000

Stuart Winchester: And really, it seems as though you’ve already been laying the groundwork for improvements on the speed, because the bit… you put in a big snowmaking…

00:51:42.000 --> 00:51:57.000

Stuart Winchester: Project along Divinity Trail this summer. I don’t know if I had that line exactly right. And also a big one off Legends last year that, uh, from, from what it seems really helped in what was a very hard season for Purgatory. So just talk about those.

00:51:57.000 --> 00:52:03.000

Stuart Winchester: projects, Dave, and where you’re at with snowmaking and purgatory in relation to where you want to be eventually?

00:52:03.000 --> 00:52:08.000

Dave Rathbun: Absolutely. Well, uh, being perfectly blunt.

00:52:08.000 --> 00:52:13.000

Dave Rathbun: that Lyft 8 Legends Express pod probably would not have opened.

00:52:12.000 --> 00:52:14.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmm.

00:52:13.000 --> 00:52:30.000

Dave Rathbun: till February last year had we not put that snowmaking in. That snowmaking running down that long Legends Trail that connected all the way to the front side is how you would get down that last steep pitch. As again, people remember from.

00:52:18.000 --> 00:52:19.000

Stuart Winchester: Right.

00:52:24.000 --> 00:52:25.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

00:52:28.000 --> 00:52:29.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

00:52:30.000 --> 00:52:32.000

Dave Rathbun: the old Lyft 8.

00:52:32.000 --> 00:52:46.000

Dave Rathbun: most people loaded basically where the Legends Trail line crossed the lift line. That’s where what was called the mid-load was, and people didn’t have to ski to the very bottom.

00:52:46.000 --> 00:52:56.000

Dave Rathbun: Um, you know, that’s kind of an expensive way to put in a detachable quad, is to put a mid-station in, you know, literally 200 vertical feet above where the base is.

00:52:56.000 --> 00:52:57.000

Stuart Winchester: Right.

00:52:56.000 --> 00:53:08.000

Dave Rathbun: So, um, getting that snowmaking down to the bottom was a huge, huge thing for us. You know, I… since I got here, we’ve been doing all kinds of crazy things like we did in Oregon, where.

00:53:08.000 --> 00:53:17.000

Dave Rathbun: Most mountains don’t have much snow making and you would snow farm. So we were setting up wind fence to catch snow and farm it.

00:53:11.000 --> 00:53:12.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

00:53:17.000 --> 00:53:32.000

Dave Rathbun: It just it’s just so hard and so unpredictable. Now that we have snowmaking to the bottom, you know, that that might change how early we get that lift open. It’s great to be able to get to the far reaches of the resort.

00:53:32.000 --> 00:53:36.000

Dave Rathbun: Um, you know, as early in the season as we can, so…

00:53:35.000 --> 00:53:37.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

00:53:36.000 --> 00:53:43.000

Dave Rathbun: And the limiting factor there is that bottom two hundred feet for, you know, the snow line back there.

00:53:43.000 --> 00:53:53.000

Stuart Winchester: So you’ve been lucky in your career, you’ve worked at a lot of places where it really nuked, especially Sugar Bowl and Bachelor. I’m curious, you know, you’ve been around and worked.

00:53:53.000 --> 00:54:08.000

Stuart Winchester: for Powder for a while, and… and worked for IntraWest, and uh… now you’re working for Mountain Capital Partners, and… and I just recently hosted your colleague down in… Jason down at Parrito, and talked about the giant snowmaking.

00:54:08.000 --> 00:54:12.000

Stuart Winchester: installation going in there this summer. Can you just talk a little bit about.

00:54:12.000 --> 00:54:14.000

Stuart Winchester: working for Mountain Capital Partners, and.

00:54:14.000 --> 00:54:24.000

Stuart Winchester: their philosophy around snowmaking, because, gosh, they’re running in some really tough environments in New Mexico and Arizona, and probably southwest Colorado.

00:54:24.000 --> 00:54:27.000

Dave Rathbun: Yeah, I mean…

00:54:27.000 --> 00:54:32.000

Dave Rathbun: that’s the beauty. Somebody who’s done this as long as I have for the types of companies I’ve worked for.

00:54:32.000 --> 00:54:38.000

Dave Rathbun: There is nothing better than working for somebody like James Coleman. Skiing first.

00:54:35.000 --> 00:54:37.000

Stuart Winchester: Yeah.

00:54:38.000 --> 00:54:44.000

Dave Rathbun: Give people the freedom to ski. I mean, everything is central to the ski experience.

00:54:44.000 --> 00:54:49.000

Dave Rathbun: That is music to my ears, having gone through some really…

00:54:49.000 --> 00:54:57.000

Dave Rathbun: strange and painful things for skiers at different areas during different times of their, you know, life cycles.

00:54:57.000 --> 00:55:17.000

Dave Rathbun: Nothing better. Uh, we start with, you know, making sure that we can get as much of our mountain and as much of our lifts open with snowmaking. So, that’s the key. We’ve got to get these lifts open, and if you’re in the southwest, where you can be sometimes temperature or precip challenged.

00:55:17.000 --> 00:55:32.000

Dave Rathbun: You better have snowmaking. So, that’s a huge focus for us. And, you know, Pajarito, that will be a game changer. That mountain, that little mountain skis huge and put a little more snowmaking on it.

00:55:29.000 --> 00:55:30.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

00:55:30.000 --> 00:55:32.000

Stuart Winchester: Right.

00:55:33.000 --> 00:55:36.000

Dave Rathbun: That place is going to be amazing.

00:55:36.000 --> 00:55:51.000

Stuart Winchester: So you can ski Pareto and Purgatory on the Power Pass, which is awesome, free for kids 12 and under, which is the best deal for families in America. Also recently announced $9 lift tickets when I checked.

00:55:51.000 --> 00:56:05.000

Stuart Winchester: today, Dave, there were still 14 days with $9 lift tickets at Purgatory, mostly early season, but the highest I see was $85 all season. I’m sure some of those numbers will go up, but just talk about…

00:56:05.000 --> 00:56:20.000

Stuart Winchester: having that sort of entry point, and you already have a really cheap pass with the Power Pass, so… so what’s the reaction been like to that? And… and, you know, Vail always tells us that lift tickets have to be highest people buy the Epic Pass, but you’re kind of doing both.

00:56:20.000 --> 00:56:28.000

Dave Rathbun: Yeah, I mean, I’ve been a student of this my whole career. You know, the middle third of my career was all sales and marketing.

00:56:27.000 --> 00:56:28.000

Stuart Winchester: Right.

00:56:28.000 --> 00:56:38.000

Dave Rathbun: And we did some wild, crazy stuff at other places, too, but this is by far the most aggressive pricing. And this is…

00:56:38.000 --> 00:56:44.000

Dave Rathbun: This is hard for a ski guy like me to get your head around initially.

00:56:43.000 --> 00:56:45.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

00:56:44.000 --> 00:56:51.000

Dave Rathbun: But what it does is, until this year, it gave Purgatory unbelievable free ink.

00:56:51.000 --> 00:57:08.000

Dave Rathbun: now all my sister resorts are doing it too, and I joke with everybody, hey, you guys, you didn’t follow us along, you know, when you could have the last few years, but, you know, I think we prove that this is, you know, the juice is well worth the squeeze, and again.

00:57:08.000 --> 00:57:21.000

Dave Rathbun: People are talking about us like they never have before. Some people don’t even know about some of our mountains. They’re awesome places. They may not be the biggest, they may not have the fastest, newest lifts.

00:57:20.000 --> 00:57:22.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

00:57:21.000 --> 00:57:30.000

Dave Rathbun: But man, skiing is fun at these places. We are authentic and the pricing just helps us tell our story a little bit better.

00:57:30.000 --> 00:57:47.000

Dave Rathbun: It is demand based. So obviously when we get busier, we’re trying not to go over our, we call it our do not exceed. Every one of our mountains has a different number. We want to get as close to that number we can every single day.

00:57:47.000 --> 00:57:53.000

Dave Rathbun: You know, are we ever gonna get there? Are we ever gonna fill every seat on the plane like an airline does?

00:57:53.000 --> 00:58:08.000

Dave Rathbun: Probably not. But that’s how we that’s how we’re trying to, you know, stay authentic, provide a great value. You know, there’s really no excuse to not go skiing if we can make it this affordable.

00:58:08.000 --> 00:58:28.000

Dave Rathbun: Yeah, you may not be able to do it on a holiday, but this is how we roll. We want people to get out and enjoy the snow, and we’re trying to make it as affordable and take down as many barriers as we can. You know, the free lessons that we do, you know, you buy a full-price ticket, we’ll give you a free lesson.

00:58:28.000 --> 00:58:43.000

Dave Rathbun: These are just parts of the things that are non-negotiables with somebody that is like James Coleman. He has a vision for what he wants to create, and he puts his money where his mouth is. We could make more money.

00:58:36.000 --> 00:58:37.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

00:58:42.000 --> 00:58:44.000

Stuart Winchester: Yep.

00:58:43.000 --> 00:58:55.000

Dave Rathbun: That’s not what this is about. So you talk about, again, being a ski guy my whole life, where I grew up, started skiing when I was five, I ended up in this industry.

00:58:56.000 --> 00:59:09.000

Dave Rathbun: People like that just don’t exist anymore. He acts like some of these incredible founding pioneer operators. There are not many of them left. James Coleman is one of them.

00:58:59.000 --> 00:59:00.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

00:59:09.000 --> 00:59:22.000

Stuart Winchester: Absolutely, and you know, those lower prices have not led to a lack of investments, because MCP, as we’ve been talking about, has been building new lifts and snowmaking projects like crazy. You know, your perspective is really interesting here, Dave, and I want to…

00:59:23.000 --> 00:59:38.000

Stuart Winchester: I want you to leave us on, on this today. So you’ve worked in a lot of different markets with, with a lot different regulations. New England is its own thing, and Pacific Northwest is a, is a monster regulatory wise. And in Tahoe, you know, good luck doing anything there.

00:59:38.000 --> 00:59:47.000

Stuart Winchester: And so now you’re at purgatory, and I thought you had a really interesting note. When you wrote about, in April, when you stepped into the CEO role.

00:59:47.000 --> 01:00:03.000

Stuart Winchester: You wrote you wanted to focus on, quote, developing solid business strategy and navigating the complex compliance and permitting world that dictates our future growth. And you also wrote, quote, the time red tape and financial hurdles required to get even simple improvement projects off the ground.

01:00:03.000 --> 01:00:08.000

Stuart Winchester: are growing. I read about this all the time. It’s interesting to watch.

01:00:09.000 --> 01:00:21.000

Stuart Winchester: up in Canada, I’m sure, when you worked for Interwest, you saw that the government has a philosophy of clearing hurdles, whereas in America, there are just so many hurdles. But can you just talk about, over your career.

01:00:22.000 --> 01:00:27.000

Stuart Winchester: How much more difficult has it become to.

01:00:27.000 --> 01:00:34.000

Stuart Winchester: do simple things, and kind of one of the baselines I always use is some operators tell me it costs more to.

01:00:34.000 --> 01:00:45.000

Stuart Winchester: fight litigation and approve a project than it does to build it. But from your point of view, just tell us how this has evolved and why this really requires a full-time person in an executive role now.

01:00:46.000 --> 01:00:52.000

Dave Rathbun: Yeah, I mean, I think this is the eighth forest that I’ve been on.

01:00:50.000 --> 01:00:51.000

Stuart Winchester: Yeah.

01:00:52.000 --> 01:00:57.000

Dave Rathbun: So the Forest Service alone, it’s been highly publicized.

01:00:57.000 --> 01:01:14.000

Dave Rathbun: There are a lot of changes at the Forest Service. They have lost an incredible amount of their institutional knowledge. And every time that happens, it changes the interpretation of what the regulations are, even though they may not have changed.

01:01:14.000 --> 01:01:25.000

Dave Rathbun: And then people have to learn them. You know, I am going through an issue right now with, you know, the last part of this divinity snowmaking is going to require some blasting.

01:01:25.000 --> 01:01:42.000

Dave Rathbun: So, I’m trying to get a blasting plan approved, and the person that I’m working with at the Forest Service, you know, sent our blaster a whole bunch of regulations on Forest Service land related to mining.

01:01:42.000 --> 01:01:43.000

Stuart Winchester: Mm. Okay.

01:01:42.000 --> 01:01:50.000

Dave Rathbun: And we’ve never, never had that before. And again, I don’t know why, I just think it’s.

01:01:43.000 --> 01:01:44.000

Stuart Winchester: Okay.

01:01:46.000 --> 01:01:48.000

Stuart Winchester: Right.

01:01:50.000 --> 01:02:02.000

Dave Rathbun: probably because they don’t know. Um, so we’re… I mean, that’s one small example. So, the loss of their institutional knowledge, and I will say that.

01:01:53.000 --> 01:01:54.000

Stuart Winchester: Right.

01:02:02.000 --> 01:02:17.000

Dave Rathbun: It doesn’t feel like the partnership it was not that long ago. I mean, you know, when I was in Oregon, we got a master plan through and accepted in record time. It was supposedly going to be the first of the new style.

01:02:17.000 --> 01:02:35.000

Dave Rathbun: master development plans, which were around a 10-year time horizon. So, smaller, don’t do what we call the kitchen sink master plans. I mean, when I was at Copper Mountain, um, I was there, like, the last 7 years I was there, we were working on a master plan. I left.

01:02:35.000 --> 01:02:40.000

Dave Rathbun: And it took, like, 2 or 3 more years for them to get the thing approved.

01:02:39.000 --> 01:02:40.000

Stuart Winchester: All right.

01:02:40.000 --> 01:02:41.000

Dave Rathbun: I mean…

01:02:41.000 --> 01:02:47.000

Dave Rathbun: This stuff just, it depends on where you are and who you’re working with.

01:02:47.000 --> 01:02:58.000

Dave Rathbun: But a lot of the people that, um, they have had have cycled through, and now they’ve got a whole new… a whole new crop of people running these forests.

01:02:58.000 --> 01:03:02.000

Dave Rathbun: And then that’s just the forest side of it. In our situation, we’re part on…

01:03:02.000 --> 01:03:14.000

Dave Rathbun: Forest Service land in part on county land. So, in the past, we didn’t have a county development code. And ever since they passed one in 2020.

01:03:14.000 --> 01:03:18.000

Dave Rathbun: here in La Plata County, Colorado.

01:03:18.000 --> 01:03:23.000

Dave Rathbun: It’s kinda weird. They they are kinda looking at the ski area like it was never here.

01:03:23.000 --> 01:03:24.000

Stuart Winchester: Hmm. Okay.

01:03:23.000 --> 01:03:39.000

Dave Rathbun: So, what… what held up that cool water lift was the county made us make… go through a major land use process, which put us in front of the planning commission and public comment, and finally in front of the.

01:03:39.000 --> 01:03:46.000

Dave Rathbun: the Board of County Commissioners who have the final say on any major land use in our county. And we…

01:03:46.000 --> 01:03:53.000

Dave Rathbun: We had to go through it like there was never a ski area here. So we’re we’re working with them to try to sort that out so that.

01:03:50.000 --> 01:03:51.000

Stuart Winchester: Cheers.

01:03:53.000 --> 01:04:03.000

Dave Rathbun: you know, this Lift 4 project, the gondola, is another one of these, so it starts on private land and goes up on the Forest Service land. So…

01:04:01.000 --> 01:04:03.000

Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.

01:04:03.000 --> 01:04:08.000

Dave Rathbun: It’s just a different day and age, and…

01:04:08.000 --> 01:04:13.000

Dave Rathbun: These regulations never seem to go away, they only get a little bit more intense.

01:04:13.000 --> 01:04:29.000

Dave Rathbun: So, you just have to have a good attitude and frankly, for how much time and effort is required to keep the balls in the air and keep, you know, I’ll use the football analogy. We got to just keep matriculating down that field, right? Just got to keep moving.

01:04:29.000 --> 01:04:40.000

Dave Rathbun: I spend pretty much 80% of my time on that now. I want to get all of these projects done so that we’re entitled, and when we get the word go, we’re ready to go.

01:04:40.000 --> 01:04:43.000

Stuart Winchester: That’s great insight, Dave.

01:04:43.000 --> 01:05:01.000

Stuart Winchester: I think we need some kind of major reform, but I don’t know what that is. And certainly you’ve seen things that work better in your career, but you got it done. And it sounds like you have another expansion and a whole bunch more things coming up. So listen, cannot thank you enough for your time. Congratulations on getting all this done. I’m hoping for a deep winter.

01:05:01.000 --> 01:05:17.000

Stuart Winchester: for you and everyone out west, uh, because I’ve got… I got… I had a trip out to, uh, Colorado. I got there in February. I was like, oh, the back bowls will be open at Vail, for sure. No, they didn’t open until halfway through my trip, so… so really hoping it’s a deep one for you, but thanks so much for.

01:05:17.000 --> 01:05:22.000

Dave Rathbun: My pleasure. Snow on the peaks right out here behind me right now.

01:05:21.000 --> 01:05:27.000

Stuart Winchester: Is it really? Okay. All right. All right. Well, I’ll, uh, hopefully I can get out there to ski that expansion this year.

01:05:27.000 --> 01:05:29.000

Dave Rathbun: All right, man. Take care.

01:05:28.000 --> 01:05:31.000

Stuart Winchester: All right, take care, Dave. Thanks so much. Bye.

Get full access to The Storm Skiing Journal and Podcast at https://www.stormskiing.com/subscribe

Today is The Storm’s seven-year anniversary. An enormous thank-you to all of my paid subscribers, who have helped transform the newsletter into a full-time job and a sustainable small business. Thank you for supporting independent ski journalism.

Who

Matthew Prince, co-founder, Executive Chairman, and CEO of tech gigantor Cloudflare and owner of the Park Record newspaper.

Date Recorded

Oct. 13, 2026

About Park City Mountain Resort

Owned by: Vail Resorts, which also owns:

Year founded:

* Legacy Park City: 1963, as Treasure Mountain (name until 1966)

* Legacy Canyons: 1968, as Park City West, then Park West from 1975 to ’95, Wolf Mountain from 1995 to ’97, and The Canyons from 1997 until Vail Resorts joined both legacy resorts with the Quicksilver gondola in 2015.

Pass affiliations:

* Epic Pass: unlimited access

* Epic Local Pass: unlimited access with holiday blackouts

* Epic Tahoe Local Pass: up to 5 non-holiday days combined with Vail Mountain, Beaver Creek, Crested Butte, Keystone, Breckenridge

* Epic Day Pass: all-mountain tier only

Base elevation:

* Legacy Park City – bottom of Silver Star triple: 6,892 feet

* Legacy Canyons – bottom of Orange Bubble Express: 6,911 feet

Summit elevation:

* Legacy Park City

o Lift-served – top of Jupiter double: 9,998 feet

o Hike-to – Jupiter Peak: 10,026 feet

* Legacy Canyons – top of Ninety-Nine 90: 9,990 feet

Vertical drop: 3,106 from top to bottom, actual per-run vert will vary depending upon route, but somewhere around 3,000 feet is possible with a lot of work

Skiable acres: 7,300

Average annual snowfall: 355 inches

Lift count: 42 (2 ten-passenger gondolas, 2 eight-passenger gondolas, 1 pulse gondola, 6 six-packs, 10 high-speed quads, 5 fixed-grip quads, 8 triples, 3 doubles, 2 ropetows, 3 carpets)

Why I interviewed him

Check out Park City, circa 1974:

Sure, it’s a painting, not a photograph. But you can see it, right? The idyll. The stenciled historic mine-town street grid. Nothing new but the lifts and the parking lots to feed the freshly cut mountain. No traffic in or out. No hilltop mansions. No Deer Valley. Two thousand residents. Maybe. Vail was just a ski area in Colorado.

Well that’s quaint. Deer Valley opened in 1981. Powdr bought Park City in 1994, American Skiing Company snatched neighboring Park West/Wolf Mountain/Canyons in 1997, and Vail Resorts eventually acquired both and strung them together with a gondola to create the largest ski resort in the United States. In 2017, Alterra bought long-independent Deer Valley and has since more than doubled the resort’s size with an expansion that included 11 new aerial lifts. Park City today:

As Park City filled up, Summit County filled out:

The population exploded with little planning outside of the standard U.S. American Cars-Go-Fast philosophy of road engineering. The tangle of traffic, disconnected structures, and patchwork preservation is a case study in dysfunctional sprawl, in which a community boxed in by its own bad planning resists the density and transit projects that would remedy its worst crowding and affordability problems. Once the toxic narrative takes hold that any development must be bad development, it’s easy enough for a Concerned Citizen to weaponize environmental and zoning regulations to halt – or at least almost indefinitely stall – nearly any project.

I’ve written about all this before. And it’s easy enough to say “sit down Brooklyn if we wanted to live in your big dirty city we’d move there.” But Matthew Prince, born in 1974, grew up in that backwater washed-up Park City and watched it evolve into a center-of-the-world ski town that’s about to co-host its second Olympics. And he’s saying pretty much all the same things.

“We’re strangling this place by just saying ‘nothing can ever change,’” he recently told KPCW’s Mountain Money podcast. “Everyone is here trying to preserve some past that never existed. I was here in the ‘70s – it sucked! … We have to get back to actually trying to build things and making this community better. … [We can] actually build a community that we actually want to live in. … Immediately, you try to do anything unique or original here or you try and invest in the community at all, and the first thing you get is just a series of lawsuits.”

Prince envisions a car-free Main Street and a gondola connection over the peaks to Solitude and Alta (his plan differs different from this 2014 graphic demonstrating how a handful of lifts could connect all six Wasatch resorts):

He also envisions a Park City Mountain Resort under local ownership. Vail, Prince says, can keep the Epic Pass – an independent PCMR may even participate – but he believes the Colorado-based company has under-invested in the ski resort, and he has a half-billion-dollar plan to modernize the whole circus with new lifts and snowmaking infrastructure. He has pledged to reinvest every dollar the ski area earns back into the mountain and the people who work there.

Vail doesn’t want to sell Park City, but as Epic Pass sales continue their sad decline and activist investors nominate new board members and pile up MTN shares, Prince is betting that eventually they’ll have to. Prince, who co-founded tech giant Cloudflare and is worth some number of billions, is waiting with a check.

This could get weird. It wasn’t so long ago that a consolidation-is-inevitable narrative gripped skiing. No one predicted that Park City-based Powdr would sell Killington, the largest and busiest ski area in the East, or, less dramatically, that their smaller neighbor, Pacific Group Resorts, would dispense with Ragged (PGR then almost immediately bought Silverstar, British Columbia from Powdr, which will keep Copper, Snowbird, Woodward, and maybe Bachelor, but is otherwise continuing to downsize). There’s actually plenty of precedent for operator shrinkage, as plenty of multimountain ski area companies have disintegrated (American Skiing Company), or backed away from globe-trotting ambitions (Aspen in the 1980s). But Vail could yet push through, as 11-mountain Boyne Resorts has done for nearly 80 years.

Running a ski area is hard, and most people are bad at it. But if Prince gets his chance, he possesses a rare combination of financial resources and true I-be-from-here status that puts him in an awfully strong position to succeed.

Transcripts

There are two transcripts. Both are generated by robots. Both are helpful and defective in their own unique ways. I do not proofread either of them.

Transcript 1: Click the “transcript” button at the top of this article. You can only see this transcript on a computer. Because I don’t know why exactly but everything is getting better and dumber all at once it seems. Anyway, this is the transcript that the robots create when I upload the podcast to the internet. The cool thing about it is that you can click on any block of text and the audio will teleport there instantly. The uncool thing about this transcript is that it does not indicate who is talking at any given moment.

Transcript 2: You can read this below. This is the transcript that Zoom creates as we record the podcast. The cool thing about this transcript is that it indicates who is talking at any given moment. The uncool thing about this transcript is that the timestamps do not match the audio. Also, you cannot click on this text to move to the associated point in the audio.

Zoom

Stuart Winchester: My guest today is the co-founder, executive chairman, and CEO of CloudFlare, a publicly traded global cloud platform with a $125 billion market capitalization that is used by more than 20% of all websites on the internet.

00:46:34.000 --> 00:46:42.000

Stuart Winchester: He is also owner of the Park Record newspaper, which has published continuously in Park City since 1880.

00:46:42.000 --> 00:46:58.000

Stuart Winchester: He is a Park City native who has worked as a ski instructor at Park City Mountain Resort, which at 7,300 acres served by 42 lifts is the largest ski area in the United States. Matthew Prince is my guest. Matthew, welcome to the storm. So fired up to talk to you about Park City.

00:46:58.000 --> 00:46:59.000

Stuart Winchester: How are you doing today?

00:46:59.000 --> 00:47:18.000

Matthew Prince: Uh, I’m, I’m okay. I, uh, I, I broke my arm, uh, not in a ski accident, unfortunately, but in a, in a mountain biking accident in Corsica. Uh, so I shattered the humerus bone in my, uh, in my arm, and, and I’m in a sling right now, but, uh, but on the mend, and hopefully, uh, hopefully be ready for opening day.

00:47:17.000 --> 00:47:23.000

Stuart Winchester: What was that flight like back to the US? Were you in pain or did you take something to knock it out?

00:47:21.000 --> 00:47:38.000

Matthew Prince: It was, I will say that Corsican medical care leaves something to be desired. So they gave me a little bit of regular strength Tylenol. And it was, if I held perfectly still, it was fine, but I felt every bump of turbulence.

00:47:31.000 --> 00:47:32.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

00:47:38.000 --> 00:47:45.000

Stuart Winchester: Oh, wow. Alright, so hopefully that’s not gonna mess with your ski season too much. I wanna set up the scene here, Matthew, to…

00:47:45.000 --> 00:48:01.000

Stuart Winchester: For, for the listeners and viewers. So if you’re watching on YouTube or stormseeing. com, you will see what I have here is a trail map of Park City from 1974, the year you were born. Now, it’s a drawing, but it’s more or less shows a very small town.

00:47:54.000 --> 00:47:56.000

Matthew Prince: Yeah.

00:47:56.000 --> 00:47:57.000

Matthew Prince: Yeah.

00:48:01.000 --> 00:48:16.000

Stuart Winchester: In a very tight valley and a very small ski resort. Uh, the ski area had just opened in 1963. The population was around 2,000 people. It’s 8,500 today. Summit County’s population was 6,000. It’s 43,000 today.

00:48:16.000 --> 00:48:21.000

Stuart Winchester: No such thing as Deer Valley yet. Nick Badami owned Park City.

00:48:20.000 --> 00:48:26.000

Matthew Prince: Pull out, this is my, this is my, uh, this is my 7778 ski pass.

00:48:22.000 --> 00:48:23.000

Stuart Winchester: Ooh!

00:48:26.000 --> 00:48:27.000

Stuart Winchester: Oh, wow.

00:48:26.000 --> 00:48:36.000

Matthew Prince: Which I just happen to have here. So that’s my bona fides of how long I’ve been skiing at Park City. So there you go.

00:48:28.000 --> 00:48:30.000

Stuart Winchester: Oh my gosh, that is…

00:48:35.000 --> 00:48:39.000

Stuart Winchester: Does that thing have a price on it?

00:48:37.000 --> 00:48:41.000

Matthew Prince: It’s, uh, but it’s, you know, it’s actually pretty amazing that, um…

00:48:41.000 --> 00:48:57.000

Matthew Prince: And again, I think this is somewhere, you know, we’ll talk about a bunch about Vale, but somewhere where Vale deserves a bunch of credit, the rate of inflation of season passes since I had that one, I actually looked it up.

00:48:57.000 --> 00:49:15.000

Matthew Prince: has increased at half the rate of inflation. So it’s actually one of the goods that has actually massively under-tracked the cost of inflation. So while the Lyft pass has gone up, and the price of the cheeseburgers has gone up, and lessons have gone up, the actual season passes have stayed down. And I actually think that’s something that.

00:49:15.000 --> 00:49:36.000

Matthew Prince: That is, you know, for a while, especially in the 90s, we were all worried that everyone was going to get priced out of skiing. And that was going to become, you know, just sort of a kind of, you know, small niche, rich person sport. And I think actually, you know, Vail with Epic and Altera with Icon deserve a lot of credit of figuring out ways to.

00:49:21.000 --> 00:49:22.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

00:49:28.000 --> 00:49:29.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

00:49:36.000 --> 00:49:44.000

Matthew Prince: continue to make the sport accessible to a wide number of people. And I think that’s incredibly important.

00:49:44.000 --> 00:49:56.000

Stuart Winchester: Yeah, I’ve not done the analysis for Park City, but I did one recently for Vail and Steamboat, which is a little easier because Park City was two separate mountains, uh, but the season pass for all of Vail’s mountains now is…

00:49:56.000 --> 00:50:13.000

Stuart Winchester: 60% cheaper even adjusted for inflation than it was 20 years ago. In Park City, I believe the year before Vail started buying them up, each pass was around $1,000 for Canyons and for Park City, so that’s $2,000 for a pass that you now get for, you know, inflation-adjusted, much less.

00:49:59.000 --> 00:50:01.000

Matthew Prince: Yeah.

00:50:08.000 --> 00:50:09.000

Matthew Prince: Yep.

00:50:13.000 --> 00:50:15.000

Matthew Prince: Yeah.

00:50:13.000 --> 00:50:21.000

Stuart Winchester: So… so… but take us… take us back to the 70s. I don’t expect you to remember 1974, Matthew, but… but what was it like.

00:50:19.000 --> 00:50:27.000

Matthew Prince: I was. I don’t. I don’t remember 74, but I but I remember. I remember the. You know it was. It was. It was.

00:50:22.000 --> 00:50:24.000

Stuart Winchester: Yeah, what was it like growing up there?

00:50:27.000 --> 00:50:44.000

Matthew Prince: You know, it was a fun sort of outdoors town. My parents were very sort of free-range parents. You know, they used to send me out with my friends and say, “Hey, don’t come home until you find a moose.” And we’d be out on the side of the mountain. We hadn’t found a moose, so we’d just sleep out there. And this is before, obviously, cell phones or anything else.

00:50:37.000 --> 00:50:39.000

Stuart Winchester: Yeah.

00:50:41.000 --> 00:50:43.000

Stuart Winchester: Right.

00:50:44.000 --> 00:51:12.000

Matthew Prince: you know. Eventually in the morning we get hungry and come wandering back in. But you know it was. It was very much that it was an amazing place to to grow up, you know, skiing. I skied, you know, almost almost every day, almost every weekend. The school that I went to had a had a had a program where every Friday afternoon we would go skiing, and so had had an opportunity to just, you know, just really enjoy the time out there on the mountains and make great friends and get to know those those mountains extremely well.

00:51:12.000 --> 00:51:27.000

Stuart Winchester: And what was the town itself like? You had a quote recently that Old Town has essentially become a bunch of Airbnbs, but just that sense of being in a neighborhood, in a small town, and you happen to have this world, well, probably wasn’t world class at the time, but this gigantic ski resort.

00:51:27.000 --> 00:51:33.000

Stuart Winchester: right there. What was the community like and just being a kid in that time and place?

00:51:32.000 --> 00:51:48.000

Matthew Prince: Oh, you know, I don’t, I don’t think, I think there are a lot of people that sort of fetishize, um, what it was. I, I think it was, um, I think it was kind of a mess. I mean, it was, there was a lot of, there was a lot of falling down buildings. There was a lot of, um, you know, there, there weren’t, there weren’t.

00:51:36.000 --> 00:51:37.000

Stuart Winchester: Yeah, thank you. Yeah.

00:51:48.000 --> 00:52:06.000

Matthew Prince: Uh, there, um, you know, I, I used to, there was a place called Utah Coal and Lumber, which is the little Mexican place that as a kid I loved, but it was, you know, it wasn’t, it wasn’t anything to, to write home about. And, um, and, and, and yeah, you could, you could get, you know, a crumbling miner shack for, for basically just paying the back taxes.

00:51:55.000 --> 00:51:56.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

00:52:06.000 --> 00:52:22.000

Matthew Prince: But there wasn’t actually that much kind of energy or life to it. It was really the skiing. And I think the Badami’s deserve, you know, an enormous amount of credit through the ‘70s and ‘80s, really, really enriching the skiing environment.

00:52:22.000 --> 00:52:39.000

Matthew Prince: Bringing World Cup races in, doing things in order to get people there. But even things like, you know, the Sundance Film Festival, which was in Park City Forever, didn’t start out as the Sundance Film Festival. It was the United States Film Festival. I, as a kid, used to stand out in front of the Egyptian theater with a sign that said, you know.

00:52:39.000 --> 00:52:55.000

Matthew Prince: And it was a, it was a gimmick to get people to come out and ski because you were, you were fighting like crazy just to get, to get people, uh, into, into town. So I, I think it was, um, like I, I certainly wouldn’t trade, uh, with that and, and, and it, and, and there, you know, I think that.

00:52:55.000 --> 00:53:20.000

Matthew Prince: There are people who remember good times back then, drinking lots and hooking up with their friends and not really having a care in the world. But the reality is, the lines were long, the lifts were slow, the grooming was bad, there wasn’t snowmaking. In ‘76, ‘77, the mountain basically didn’t open because it didn’t have any.

00:53:20.000 --> 00:53:38.000

Matthew Prince: any snow. And so, you know, you fast forward to today, you know, you’ve got much, much bigger mountains, much more terrain, faster, faster lifts, um, you know, better, better snowmaking, better grooming, uh, and, and it’s, and, and skiing is just a lot more, a lot more fun and a lot more accessible to, uh, to, to more people, and I, and I think it’s.

00:53:38.000 --> 00:53:46.000

Matthew Prince: It’s that we should be celebrating that, not sort of, again, fetishizing some past that really never existed.

00:53:46.000 --> 00:54:02.000

Stuart Winchester: Right, so let’s talk about that change in the evolution. It’s so unique and interesting that you actually grew up in Park City, and that’s such a rare thing for what it was and what it became. So just some of the highlights, in ‘81, Deer Valley opened.

00:53:59.000 --> 00:54:00.000

Matthew Prince: Yes.

00:54:02.000 --> 00:54:18.000

Stuart Winchester: Uh, the Badami’s were there and then they sold to Powder in 94. They really brought in a lot of those high speed newer lifts. Uh, Park West obviously changed name to Canyons and then, you know, Vail came in and, and updated. There was Olympics along the way. As you said, Sundance was growing.

00:54:02.000 --> 00:54:04.000

Matthew Prince: Yeah.

00:54:12.000 --> 00:54:14.000

Matthew Prince: Yep.

00:54:18.000 --> 00:54:19.000

Matthew Prince: That’s it.

00:54:18.000 --> 00:54:22.000

Stuart Winchester: Was there a point where…

00:54:22.000 --> 00:54:37.000

Stuart Winchester: You can look back and say, okay, this is when it started to change, or you’re just a kid, maybe you got back from college and were like, wait a minute, this is, so, so, so take us through that process through your eyes and, and how it’s evolved and, and when it stopped becoming.

00:54:37.000 --> 00:54:42.000

Stuart Winchester: this dumpy place of your childhood and started becoming more of what it is.

00:54:41.000 --> 00:54:43.000

Matthew Prince: Yeah, you know, I think, um…

00:54:44.000 --> 00:55:03.000

Matthew Prince: You know, I think that, I mean, it was, it was amazing to watch, you know, Deer Valley go, and I, I, I, um, before they put lifts in, my dad and I got to go on the cat, cats and cat ski the run for, before they were, were, were doing that. And, and when, you know, Todd, uh, the GM was opening East Village, um, I got to do that again and go ski the, the runs on.

00:55:03.000 --> 00:55:25.000

Matthew Prince: on cats before before they were opening it. And so it’s, you know, it’s it’s amazing to see as it’s as it’s continued to evolve. I think it’s it’s been great that you that you can have this incredible, you know, accessible area between Deer Valley, you know, old old Park Cities, the old Park West, Wolf Mountain Canyons area that that all combining.

00:55:25.000 --> 00:55:32.000

Matthew Prince: And, you know, my favorite thing to do when we bring, you know, people to town is that I live kind of on the, what is effectively the far sort of…

00:55:32.000 --> 00:55:52.000

Matthew Prince: southern edge of Park City, and getting people to, you know, take off from our house, ski down, and then ski all the way to the far northern side, and ski all the way back. You just get a sense of the size, and the scale, and the range. And that’s just a small part of it. Like, if you’ve also then done something like… Ski Utah does something called the Interconnect Tour, where you start at Deer Valley.

00:55:53.000 --> 00:56:08.000

Matthew Prince: You go to Deer Valley at Park City, you ski over the back of Jupiter. So if you’ve ever ridden the Jupiter chair, there’s a ski patrol shack at the top of that. You ski just right around that and then down some what is actually fairly intermediate terrain.

00:56:08.000 --> 00:56:24.000

Matthew Prince: Um, not groomed, obviously, but you’re, you’re kind of rolling through, through the, uh, through the glades. You pop out at Solitude. The only time you have to take your skis off is to, is to cross the road, uh, to go to Solitude. You ski Solitude, you go over to Brighton just to see Brighton, come back to Solitude, go over.

00:56:10.000 --> 00:56:11.000

Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.

00:56:24.000 --> 00:56:44.000

Matthew Prince: the Highway to Heaven, which then drops you down into Grizzly Gulch, takes you down to Alta, and then you ski Alta to Snowbird. The fact that you can ski between six different resorts all in one day, and that they are so much closer than people expect, is just really, really incredibly miraculous. And so.

00:56:44.000 --> 00:56:56.000

Matthew Prince: I think that, you know, for me, the mountains themselves and the resorts themselves have gotten better and better and better over time. I think the thing that’s changed a little bit is just, really, in the last few years.

00:56:56.000 --> 00:57:14.000

Matthew Prince: it’s gotten frustrating to watch as Vale, which controls Park City, um, you know, and Park City’s really the keystone within this, has just really underinvested in the mountain. And some of that’s, you know, Vale’s fault. Um, you know, they’re a public corporation, they have, um, they’ve obligated to pay a dividend, they’ve got a lot of debt.

00:57:14.000 --> 00:57:32.000

Matthew Prince: that they have to service, and so it makes it harder for them to invest in the mountains. Some of it’s the town’s fault. I mean, the fact that, again, Vail was ready to upgrade some of the lifts, and the town, you know, freaked out and kept them from doing it. I mean, that has caused there just to be this real underinvestment. And if you compare.

00:57:32.000 --> 00:57:48.000

Matthew Prince: what’s happened at Park City, where they haven’t put new snowmaking in the Park City side of Park City in, you know, in 20 plus years. The lifts are, you know, the silver load lift, which is one of the kind of key lifts at Park City was installed the year that I was a.

00:57:48.000 --> 00:58:03.000

Matthew Prince: a ski instructor there, which is more than 30 years ago. It’s way past its useful life at this point. Um, like, all of these things are places where the mountain just desperately needs investment. And both, I think, because of the restrictions that Vail has of being a public company.

00:58:03.000 --> 00:58:23.000

Matthew Prince: And because of just how much goodwill they’ve burned with the town, it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s just been sad to watch, uh, what, what feels like a, an infrastructure which is, which is increasingly, you know, just falling apart. And, and it’s gotten to the point where, like, I don’t, I don’t, I don’t let my kids ride certain lifts at, um, at Park City anymore.

00:58:21.000 --> 00:58:22.000

Stuart Winchester: Really?

00:58:23.000 --> 00:58:33.000

Matthew Prince: Because I think they’re dangerous. And, um, and again, I think it’s, it’s up to, you know, Vail to really, to really, um, you know, fix those, or, or, or we’ve got to fix Vail.

00:58:33.000 --> 00:58:51.000

Stuart Winchester: So let’s take a look here and give Vail credit for what they have done. So their first thing was connecting canyons to Park City with this really big gondola. It’s a lot bigger than it looks on this trail map here. Again, sharing my screen. They took King Con. This was a high-speed four, moved that high-speed four over here to replace a triple.

00:58:43.000 --> 00:58:44.000

Matthew Prince: Yep.

00:58:51.000 --> 00:59:07.000

Stuart Winchester: made this a 6, they put this, uh, over an out lift over here as a infill lift at Canyons, and then this High Meadow Express was an old fixed grip, and they updated that, and then, as you mentioned, they had wanted to.

00:59:07.000 --> 00:59:22.000

Stuart Winchester: and want to, again, take Eagle and Eaglet triples, replace those with one six-pack, and take Silverload, or replace it with an eight-pack. They tried to do it in 2022. Those lifts are doing great at Whistler Blackcomb right now, because that’s where they went, uh, after the town, uh.

00:59:13.000 --> 00:59:14.000

Matthew Prince: Yep.

00:59:19.000 --> 00:59:20.000

Matthew Prince: Okay.

00:59:22.000 --> 00:59:37.000

Stuart Winchester: process went through, and they were not allowed to put those in. But, they’re trying again, they just announced, they just announced in their earnings report that they’re putting them in. That’s part of what they say is $200 million in investment they’ve put overall into Park City since buying it. So.

00:59:37.000 --> 00:59:51.000

Stuart Winchester: they have done some things, but if you were them specifically, if this was your mountain, and it’s Fantasy Park City, what would you replace? I mean, you’ve got these two 70s doubles over here, but, I mean, what would you… what would you want to do?

00:59:38.000 --> 00:59:40.000

Matthew Prince: Yep.

00:59:50.000 --> 01:00:07.000

Matthew Prince: Yeah, I mean, so first of all, I have the fortunate position that I’ve done very well financially, and I don’t need to make any money off of the mountain. And so any money that the mountain makes, I would put back into really two things, which is, first of all, how do we reward and take care of the employees and staff?

01:00:07.000 --> 01:00:26.000

Matthew Prince: that are making sure that everyone has a great, great experience. The, the tension between Vail and folks like the Ski Patrol is just, I mean, it’s just silly. Like, that, that’s the, that’s, those are the people who keep my kids safe when they’re out skiing. They, they’re doing incredibly hard, incredibly important work. They should be paid for that work. And, and again, I think that that’s the first thing that we have to, have to invest.

01:00:26.000 --> 01:00:44.000

Matthew Prince: And the second thing is the infrastructure of the mountain. And yes, that means lift infrastructure. And it’s not just about how do you upgrade the lifts, but I think a lot of it is, you know, if you look at where they put the lifts in, especially the Park City side of Park City, back when they originally installed them back in ‘63, in a lot of cases, I mean, some of the lifts.

01:00:41.000 --> 01:00:42.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

01:00:44.000 --> 01:01:08.000

Matthew Prince: They just don’t make a ton of sense, for what it is. It’s it’s not designed the way a modern mountain would be, would be designed. There’s some very simple things that you could do that would spread people around the mountain and let people take advantage of a lot more of that. But it’s not just lifts. It also is snowmaking. Really, you’ve got to directly invest in the snowmaking that’s there. The problem is that when you have a bad snow year like we did last year.

01:01:08.000 --> 01:01:23.000

Matthew Prince: The amount of runs on the Park City side of Park City, their cover snowmaking is tiny compared with someone like Deer Valley. And what that does is it forces more people onto fewer runs, and that just makes it more dangerous to actually be skiing there. And so the best way for us to.

01:01:23.000 --> 01:01:41.000

Matthew Prince: There’s plenty of mountain. There’s plenty of space. If you know where to ski, like, I ski at Park City, you know, and don’t wait in a lift line ever, don’t see another person on a trail most of the time. But we have to do a better job of re-engineering how the mountain is structured, and that means a real investment.

01:01:41.000 --> 01:01:59.000

Matthew Prince: you know, I have a specific plan that if I’m able to buy Park City from Vail, that I’d put a half a billion dollars into upgrading the infrastructure of the mountain, upgrading the infrastructure of the lifts, upgrading the snowmaking, upgrading the dining facilities. I mean, the fact that the Midmountain Lodge basically didn’t have a functional bathroom for a significant portion of.

01:01:59.000 --> 01:02:15.000

Matthew Prince: of last year is just, I mean, it’s just disgusting. And this is the sort of thing that what I think is missing from Vail is they have lost what’s magic about skiing, which is that every mountain is different, every mountain is unique.

01:02:15.000 --> 01:02:35.000

Matthew Prince: They all have unique stories to tell. They’re all places that have unique cultures and a unique local environment. You can’t manage them all from Broomfield. You have to allow people who really have care and local ownership in order to do well. And I think that if you look at mountains like Jackson Hole, if you look at mountains like Sun Valley, Snow Basin.

01:02:35.000 --> 01:02:44.000

Matthew Prince: Like, just the experience that you have at places like that is much richer because you have local ownership, and then you have a partnership.

01:02:44.000 --> 01:02:57.000

Matthew Prince: with someone like Altera that sells a global pass. And I think that’s the right model for skiing going forward, which is local owners of mountains with local stewardship, and then someone doing a global pass, whether it’s Epic or Icon.

01:02:57.000 --> 01:03:12.000

Stuart Winchester: So just being a knucklehead in New York City and skiing Park City once in a while, whenever I can, it does feel very unique to me. You got the big mining infrastructure and, you know, some of the old lists are kind of cool and quirky. You got town down there below, and there’s really not much like that.

01:03:06.000 --> 01:03:08.000

Matthew Prince: Yeah.

01:03:12.000 --> 01:03:19.000

Stuart Winchester: in American skiing, but you have a much broader, longer perspective on it. So, what do you think that…

01:03:19.000 --> 01:03:28.000

Stuart Winchester: was lost in Vail Resorts ownership? Is it specifically Vail, or did it start to fade when Powder owned it? I know Powder is based right there in Park City, but…

01:03:27.000 --> 01:03:45.000

Matthew Prince: No, I think Patrick’s very much a real local owner. And again, the last time, I mean, one of the best ways to measure this is, you know, that anytime the resort has to upgrade the mountain in any meaningful way, they have to have a development agreement with the town.

01:03:45.000 --> 01:03:50.000

Matthew Prince: Um, Powder, back in, uh, 97.

01:03:50.000 --> 01:04:05.000

Matthew Prince: um, the same year that I was a ski instructor, um, put in place the last master development agreement that’s there. Um, that’s something that should be revisited, frankly, every 2 to 3 years, uh, and gone back to. And yet, we’re now 30 years in.

01:04:00.000 --> 01:04:02.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

01:04:05.000 --> 01:04:28.000

Matthew Prince: And no one has revisited it. And the town keeps saying, hey, we’re happy to talk about this, but Vail refuses to actually come to the table and revisit it. Again, I think that the challenge with it, and I hadn’t totally appreciated this. I’ve been a supporter of the US ski team for quite some time, and I went out to the Birds of Prey race, which they hold in Beaver Creek, which is another Vail resort.

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Matthew Prince: And I remember it was, um, you know, I skied down, uh, it was between races, and I skied down to get a cheeseburger from the lodge, and I walked in the lodge, and I was like.

01:04:37.000 --> 01:04:52.000

Matthew Prince: huh, this looks exactly the same as Miners Camp at Park City. And I think the Vail model, at some level, is to treat skiing like McDonald’s. How do we make every single place be exactly the same? In fact, if you look at.

01:04:52.000 --> 01:05:11.000

Matthew Prince: that what the lift operators, if you look at what the ski instructors are wearing, oftentimes it won’t even be something specific to the mountain you’re on. It will say… it’ll list all of the different Vail resorts. And again, I get it. At some level, that might be the most efficient way to run something, is treat every mountain as if it’s McDonald’s.

01:05:11.000 --> 01:05:29.000

Matthew Prince: But that’s losing, I think, what people really care about skiing. Like, if you go to Sun Valley, there’s an experience there that you get. If you go to Deer Valley, there’s an experience there that you get, which is different. If you go to Jackson Hole, there’s an experience there that you get that’s different. And I think that comes back to really local management.

01:05:29.000 --> 01:05:45.000

Matthew Prince: which is taking those mountains and running them in a way which is really unique to them. And I think the right model for Vail going forward is, how do you say, how can we get more local ownership and then still sell the Epic Pass? I’ll give you an example. Here are two different.

01:05:45.000 --> 01:05:55.000

Matthew Prince: future realities. Let’s imagine that Vale’s stock price trades on nothing more by than how many Epic Passes they sell, which is roughly true.

01:05:55.000 --> 01:06:13.000

Matthew Prince: Um, here are two different futures. One future is they’ll continue to do what they’re doing in Park City, where they, you know, you know, run it as they’ve been running it, and they promise they’re gonna, you know, make it better next year with, you know, an epic promise to do epic things in an epic way.

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Matthew Prince: Right? And they do that, right? And again, I think we’ve all heard those stories before, and some people are going to bypass us saying, well, yeah, maybe this time is different. And others of us are going to say, you know, the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. Like, I think Park City stays.

01:06:29.000 --> 01:06:48.000

Matthew Prince: Park City as long as Vail continues to run it. In an alternative world, they sell Park City to someone like me. They get a bunch of cash, which they can use, you know, pay down their debt, do a dividend, buy back stock, invest in their other mountains. I commit to putting half a billion dollars into the mountain, so upgrade the mountain substantially.

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Matthew Prince: We do a deal where we still accept the Epic Pass. There’s no reason you can’t continue to do that. I immediately go to Eric Resnick at KSL and Altera and do it, do a deal to do an interconnect between Deer Valley and Park City upgrade. Then the deal that you need to do in order to do that, you got to upgrade the food on the Park City side because they don’t want everyone to ski over and overwhelm the restaurants at Deer Valley. So you’ve got to get people to go both directions. But that’s a very.

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Matthew Prince: And then in addition to that, put in place a plan in order to connect with a gondola from where the town lift is today, all the way to Alta, stopping in solitude along the way, so that you connect all six resorts and have the largest skiable acreage anywhere in the world. And if you want to ski at Park City.

01:07:29.000 --> 01:07:48.000

Matthew Prince: the keystone to all of that, that you have to actually, you know, have an Epic Pass or have a Park City Pass in order to do that. Under which of those worlds do you sell more Epic Passes? I think the clear answer is B. I think clearly in that world, you sell more Epic Passes if you’re Vale, and so the thing which has been just mind-blowing to me.

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Matthew Prince: Is that folks like Rob Katz at Vail won’t even engage in the conversation. And that to me is just a hallmark of what bad management looks like. If you could do that, it would be good for Vail. It would be good for Park City. It would be good for skiers.

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Matthew Prince: It’d be good for everyone involved. And again, I think that that is very, very, very plausible, and I’ve got a plan to do that and the financing all lined up to do it myself.

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Stuart Winchester: What I’m showing on the screen is the old Wasatch Interconnect plan from 2014. That was pre-Vail purchasing Park City. I think it was probably more environmental activists that killed that plan. But I really want to — there’s so many things I want to follow up on here that you said, Matthew.

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Stuart Winchester: my audience is very much into the… the lifts, the mountain, the way… the way it works. What can you tell us? I mean, the half billion’s a lot of money. Specifically, what lifts would you like to take out, replace, put in?

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Matthew Prince: Yeah.

01:08:33.000 --> 01:08:35.000

Matthew Prince: Okay.

01:08:36.000 --> 01:08:38.000

Matthew Prince: It’s a lot of money. I mean, it’s.

01:08:41.000 --> 01:08:57.000

Matthew Prince: Yeah, I mean, so again, I think that the first step would be like, let’s bring in someone who’s a real ski resort designer to do this. But let’s spitball, you know, some of the things that you can do. So the first is the town lift. Imagine if the town lift, which today takes 22 minutes.

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Stuart Winchester: Yeah.

01:08:51.000 --> 01:08:52.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

01:08:57.000 --> 01:09:08.000

Matthew Prince: from the base just to get up to, you know, the top of it. If instead it took 22 minutes to take you not just from the base of downtown Park City, but all the way up.

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Matthew Prince: over the, uh, the back of what is, um, Scott’s Bowl on there, down to Solitude, with a stop at Solitude, then up and over, down Grizzly Gulch.

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Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

01:09:18.000 --> 01:09:39.000

Matthew Prince: to Alta. We can do that with a modern gondola in 22 min, end-to-end downtown Park City to downtown Alta. And think about what that enables. You can stay in Park City, and you can go ski in Alta, or if we ran it late enough, managed it and ran until 1 in the morning, you could be staying over at Alta, and you could come eat at the great restaurants.

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Matthew Prince: At Park City, go see a show, go out to a bar, and then get on the gondola and ride it back. It’d be this very European-like experience, which, because of how close everything is together, that is very plausible and able to do. So I think that’s the sort of thing that is there. We have other places that are absolute bottlenecks within the mountain of Park City itself. So again, the Silver Load area is a key example of that. I take the Silver Load lift.

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Matthew Prince: But run an additional lift from Silver Load and put it to the top of where Crescent goes now. Put a high-speed quad that takes off from right below where Silver Load is, takes people up and takes that down. Put additional snowmaking, especially on some of those Ski Team Ridge runs, and make sure they groom them. What the Cummings did under Powder.

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Matthew Prince: was they made sure that every single day, one of those ski team ridge runs was always groomed, and they called it a signature run, and it was a great run for an advanced intermediate skier to be able to get down off the mountain. That took people off of the choke point of people coming down, uh, Treasure Hollow at the end of the day. Take a lift from the base of where, um, the, the Bonanza lift is.

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Matthew Prince: And run it up to the top. Just it can be a fixed grip triple, and run it to the top of where payday is to get people on the payday runs and again, get them out of Treasure Hollow, which is, again, one of the number one places where you have accidents at the end of the day. Invest in just more snowmaking so that you get more of the mountain open. I think there are a lot of things that you can do in order to, improve the access to other things. Take the mother load lift.

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Matthew Prince: and redirect it slightly so that instead of it ending at the same place where Silver Load and Bonanza do, it actually takes you to the top of where Pioneer and Thanes are so that you get access to some of those Pioneer runs and get more places for people to ski. Take the Pioneer lift, obviously make it a much faster lift, make it less high off the ground because it’s actually dangerously high.

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Matthew Prince: at various places, but run that actually all the way back down to Bonanza so that you have a much longer kind of intermediate run area that’s there, and create an additional intermediate trail that comes off and cuts around Pioneer Ridge so that you can do that. Again, I think what Deer Valley has done a good job of is saying.

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Matthew Prince: How can we make sure that no matter what lift someone is getting on, there’s at least a beginner and an intermediate way of getting down the mountain? I think Park City has divided things up. And so as a family, if you have some people who are strong skiers and some whose people are weaker skiers, you end up having to divide up.

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Matthew Prince: Whereas I think that there are ways that you can, with modern design of a mountain, make the entire mountain more accessible to more people. And as you do that, you spread crowds out, lift lines go down, the crowding on the slopes goes down, the carrying capacity of the mountain goes way up, and you can do.

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Matthew Prince: You know, really great things where the same number of people on the mountain can have just a much, much, much better experience.

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Stuart Winchester: Let’s keep going. Canyons, what do you got?

01:12:20.000 --> 01:12:36.000

Matthew Prince: Well, I mean, again, I think there’s a ton. The Kansas has had better investment, but I think snowmaking galore. I think that there’s a ton of opportunity, especially as you go off Pinecone Ridge. So coming down into the area that’s now the colony, there’s great terrain that you can have.

01:12:24.000 --> 01:12:26.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

01:12:33.000 --> 01:12:35.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

01:12:36.000 --> 01:12:52.000

Matthew Prince: that comes down off of all of that. But I think just snowmaking like crazy, making sure that you’ve got, you know, the ability to cover these various parts. And then I think working with the Forest Service to say, how can you go up to the next ridge? So one of the most dangerous places.

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Matthew Prince: to ski right now is flat top, which is out of bounds. But it’s really, really tempting where people can just kind of ski under a rope and get right to it when they come off the 99 90 chair, and every single year even advanced skiers are dying up there, and it’s a really, really dangerous area. If you sort of look right in the center of the screen where 99 90 comes up.

01:13:11.000 --> 01:13:13.000

Stuart Winchester: Hmm.

01:13:17.000 --> 01:13:34.000

Matthew Prince: You can see there’s a boundary and then just to the right of the boundary, there’s sort of a, I can’t remember if it’s a flat top or square top, the name of that mountain. I mean, the best way to deal with that is like put a lift up it and actually groom it and avalanche control it. And there’s a ton of additional terrain.

01:13:34.000 --> 01:13:54.000

Matthew Prince: that I think you can see directly expanding up into and just making the mountain even bigger. And then I think it opens the opportunity of where are the places that you can then ski over the backside and get down into the solitudes and brightens of the world in order to make this just this incredible, like, rich ability to ski across multiple different areas.

01:13:47.000 --> 01:13:48.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

01:13:54.000 --> 01:14:07.000

Matthew Prince: Because I think it’d be incredible to wake up in Park City, you know, take the gondola over, ski a couple of laps over in, you know, Eddy’s High Nowhere at Alta, or the Cirque.

01:14:06.000 --> 01:14:07.000

Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Okay.

01:14:07.000 --> 01:14:24.000

Matthew Prince: at Snowbird, come back and have the buttered chicken at the Roundhouse at Solitude for lunch, and then make your way back to, you know, the High West Saloon for Apres Ski back in Park City. That would be such a unique opportunity, and again.

01:14:24.000 --> 01:14:41.000

Matthew Prince: I think that you can do something like that, accepting the Epic Pass, but you can’t have Vail own it because Vail has just made too many enemies with too many of the other ski resort operators around there. An independent owner like myself, I think, can pull that off and make that happen. And again, I think it’s good for skiing.

01:14:41.000 --> 01:14:43.000

Matthew Prince: It’s good for skiers and it’s even good for.

01:14:43.000 --> 01:15:00.000

Stuart Winchester: So setting aside Vail for a moment, and we’ll come back to all that, I love this idea of connecting all of these mountains. You see what, but this plan was killed by, from my understanding, a lot of litigation, which is pretty typical of what kills things.

01:14:50.000 --> 01:14:52.000

Matthew Prince: Yeah.

01:15:00.000 --> 01:15:15.000

Matthew Prince: There wasn’t litigation. I think it died early. I think, you know, the advantage of having grown up in Utah and seen, I mean, we’ve been talking about doing some sort of interconnect.

01:15:00.000 --> 01:15:02.000

Stuart Winchester: in the U.S. West.

01:15:15.000 --> 01:15:32.000

Matthew Prince: since the 70s, and it’s not happened. And there’s some real landmines that are out there. And so I think, you know, I’m, you know, cautiously and quietly clearing those landmines. And I think the Olympics, which are coming in 2034, provide.

01:15:32.000 --> 01:15:47.000

Matthew Prince: you know, a real impetus. And there’s, um, and there’s, you know, significant buy-in across, sort of, the political leadership, um, and across most of the ski resort leadership. And so, um, you know, again, I think what’s been missing is a crazy person who.

01:15:47.000 --> 01:15:56.000

Matthew Prince: who, uh, who has the resources to be able to, uh, to drive something like this. And, and, um, and, and that’s, um, I, I, I fit that bill.

01:15:56.000 --> 01:16:12.000

Stuart Winchester: So you see how much trouble they’re having right now putting a gondola up Little Cottonwood Canyon, right? And, and you’ve spoken yourself about how hard it is to build anything in Park City. You have this five acre site that’s very contentious. You have issues with your own home on the property that you own trying to build something.

01:16:12.000 --> 01:16:14.000

Stuart Winchester: So, so there’s…

01:16:14.000 --> 01:16:20.000

Stuart Winchester: We’re stuck in this regulatory world where it can be difficult to get things done.

01:16:17.000 --> 01:16:27.000

Matthew Prince: Yeah, I’m pretty optimistic. I think that those are solvable problems.

01:16:27.000 --> 01:16:41.000

Matthew Prince: and again, it just makes… it makes a ton of sense. There’s a… there’s a lot of… there’s a lot of mountain, uh, for… for people who are gonna do, um, you know, backcountry skiing, uh, and that… that should be preserved, but we should also make sure that we can.

01:16:41.000 --> 01:16:49.000

Matthew Prince: get cars out of the Cottonwood Canyons, that rubber pollution from tires, uh, going into the water sources is terrible.

01:16:48.000 --> 01:16:50.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

01:16:49.000 --> 01:16:54.000

Matthew Prince: And, uh, and if you can get people there on, you know, fast, quiet.

01:16:54.000 --> 01:17:09.000

Matthew Prince: Almost invisible gondolas. Uh, I mean, Europe has shown that that is, is, is the way that works, and I think we should learn, uh, from, from their examples and, and, and, and, and again, the environmental movements there that have, that have led to, yes, getting people out to enjoy the mountains.

01:16:55.000 --> 01:16:57.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

01:17:09.000 --> 01:17:15.000

Matthew Prince: But also investing in how you move people around in ways that are not incredibly polluting or inefficient or dangerous.

01:17:15.000 --> 01:17:20.000

Stuart Winchester: Yeah, it seems like we’re overdue for a narrative shift because often.

01:17:20.000 --> 01:17:24.000

Stuart Winchester: The folks opposing things for environmental reasons are.

01:17:24.000 --> 01:17:29.000

Stuart Winchester: Really maintaining a mode of transit or.

01:17:29.000 --> 01:17:44.000

Stuart Winchester: Uh, activity that is worse for the environment, like all the cars up Little Cottonwood Canyon. And you, you’ve talked about how you would close Main Street and Park City to cars. And, and that’s just one example. This, this area of the Wasatch is so dense, has so much.

01:17:45.000 --> 01:18:00.000

Stuart Winchester: potential to be like Europe and like nothing else in the United States. You know, having grown up and watched this all come, you’ve also talked about Park City kind of being stuck in time, you know, like stuck in 1985 or whatever it is that people idealize.

01:17:48.000 --> 01:17:49.000

Matthew Prince: Cool.

01:17:59.000 --> 01:18:01.000

Matthew Prince: 95, but yeah.

01:18:00.000 --> 01:18:03.000

Stuart Winchester: Yeah, was there one…

01:18:03.000 --> 01:18:04.000

Stuart Winchester: Big…

01:18:04.000 --> 01:18:08.000

Stuart Winchester: Big change or one big thing that kind of.

01:18:08.000 --> 01:18:22.000

Stuart Winchester: they need to get past? Is it all just relationships and having someone that can talk to the community more? What did Park City and the surrounding areas get stuck on, and how can they move ahead to a more modern, non-car-based system?

01:18:21.000 --> 01:18:43.000

Matthew Prince: Yeah, I mean, I think to some extent, you’ve got a whole bunch of people who a lot of their wealth has been tied up in the fact that they, you know, bought what were legacy miner shacks, and then those miner shacks are now worth a whole bunch of money. And there’s a false belief that if you allow people to build new things, that that will then cause the older things to be worth less.

01:18:43.000 --> 01:19:00.000

Matthew Prince: That feels like people are having their basically nest egg stolen from them. That has turned out not to be true. If you look at towns like Aspen, the old properties have appreciated even as they’ve built new properties, Telluride, Sun Valley, Jackson Hole, all of those cases, it turns out.

01:18:46.000 --> 01:18:47.000

Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.

01:19:00.000 --> 01:19:16.000

Matthew Prince: That helps. I think there’s also just sort of a sort of fear and panic over, oh my gosh, the traffic is so bad. And, you know, again, to some extent, that’s a problem of our own creation in places like Park City. I think, you know, Park City has done, and Park City is a very liberal town.

01:19:07.000 --> 01:19:08.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

01:19:16.000 --> 01:19:36.000

Matthew Prince: Uh, within a very conservative state. And, um, and has been kind of thumbing its nose at the, um, at the state leadership for quite some time. And yet the two roads that go in and out of town, uh, roads are 224 and 248, they’re both state roads. And, you know, a few years back, there was a state bill.

01:19:36.000 --> 01:19:40.000

Matthew Prince: that upgraded roads across the entire state.

01:19:40.000 --> 01:19:56.000

Matthew Prince: Every single state road got upgraded except two, 224 and 248. And so at some level, like, you know, you may not like the people that run the state legislature, but you’re not doing your community a service if you’re not actually.

01:19:43.000 --> 01:19:44.000

Stuart Winchester: Okay.

01:19:56.000 --> 01:20:11.000

Matthew Prince: Building a relationship with them and saying, hey, it’s in all of our interests to make sure that the infrastructure gets supported, that we’re able to upgrade things, that we’re able to get these things in place. I think there’s a lot that we can do to improve the place.

01:20:11.000 --> 01:20:27.000

Matthew Prince: And, and there’s just a ton of change which is coming like, you know, in ten years, you know, are we all going to be driving cars ourselves? I think probably no. I mean, you look at someone like my dad, who’s 85 and has a Tesla, is self-driving and drives him up and drives him down when he comes and visits.

01:20:27.000 --> 01:20:43.000

Matthew Prince: I think that’s going to become much more of the reality. And how do we think through and plan for what that future looks like? And I think there’s an enormous opportunity for new kind of real leadership to step up and say, we’re going to build what is the future.

01:20:43.000 --> 01:20:58.000

Matthew Prince: Honoring the past, but not preserving the past. And, you know, fights over whether or not a set of stairs is historic or not. Honestly, not the best use of time. And if we don’t do this, the real risk for Park City is, it’s not like…

01:20:58.000 --> 01:21:16.000

Matthew Prince: development and growth is stopping like East Village is getting built like crazy. The canyons based area is getting built like crazy. It’s just Park City itself. It’s kind of in in a in a stasis. And what I worry about is, you know, my, when my dad grew up in in Utah, he used to come up in the in the sixties to see to see Park City as the ghost town.

01:21:16.000 --> 01:21:33.000

Matthew Prince: And it’s not inconceivable that we beat the case. When I was a kid, it was the people from Salt Lake who came up to Park City to go to the good restaurants. Now the people from Park City are going down to Salt Lake to go to good restaurants because it’s become too hard to open a great restaurant in Park City.

01:21:16.000 --> 01:21:17.000

Stuart Winchester: Yeah, yeah.

01:21:27.000 --> 01:21:28.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

01:21:33.000 --> 01:21:49.000

Matthew Prince: And so I think there’s an opportunity, but we’ve got to make investments. We’ve got to make it easy to get there. We’ve got to make it easy to start businesses and have those businesses thrive. We’ve got to make it a real destination. It’s got to have a little bit more density. I mean, if you compare.

01:21:49.000 --> 01:22:06.000

Matthew Prince: You know, Park City’s one relatively steep road that people have to navigate with somewhere like Aspen, where it’s, again, flat and has some depth to it. Like, there’s some easy things that are wins. Like, there’s an alley called Sweet Alley. Of course, that should be developed with restaurants and shops.

01:22:06.000 --> 01:22:25.000

Matthew Prince: hotels and a grocery store. Of course, we should be doing things to encourage, you know, more people to get there. And in doing that, again, I think it’s going to benefit the entire community, and I think we can do it in a way that actually makes the mountains better, makes the experience of being there better, decreases the actual traffic burden.

01:22:25.000 --> 01:22:30.000

Matthew Prince: And makes it a place where, you know, families like my own were excited to call home.

01:22:30.000 --> 01:22:32.000

Stuart Winchester: So I.

01:22:32.000 --> 01:22:49.000

Stuart Winchester: Read your competitor town lifts email every day. And one of the funniest, it’s, it’s a, it’s a, well, it’s a good newsletter, but one of the funniest parts is the job postings for jobs paying 25 an hour are right above the real estate listings for homes that are 12 million. So there’s a disconnect there.

01:22:49.000 --> 01:22:58.000

Stuart Winchester: And I’m curious how much you’ve thought, Matthew, about if you were to own Park City Resort. We’ve seen in Aspen, Aspen Skiing Company’s done a pretty good job of.

01:22:58.000 --> 01:23:14.000

Stuart Winchester: Helping employees basically by subsidizing homes. But it sounds like what you are saying is maybe more of the abundance movement, which is kind of figure out ways to build and, and let and, and have a market that works better. Am I getting that right? Or do you have other thoughts on housing and how you might handle that?

01:23:12.000 --> 01:23:14.000

Matthew Prince: Yeah, of course, of course.

01:23:14.000 --> 01:23:31.000

Matthew Prince: I mean, I think that the massive advantage that Park City has over places like Aspen is that we’ve got communities all around us that are significantly more affordable. So if you go to Colville, which is not far away, if you go to Heber, which is incredibly close.

01:23:20.000 --> 01:23:22.000

Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.

01:23:25.000 --> 01:23:26.000

Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.

01:23:31.000 --> 01:23:50.000

Matthew Prince: to, you know, the East Village in Park City. If you go to Salt Lake, which is not that long a drive, you’ve got just… you’ve got places where people can afford to buy homes. In addition, I mean, I do think that for places where, you know, people are firefighters or school teachers or newspaper reporters.

01:23:50.000 --> 01:24:08.000

Matthew Prince: We’ve got to find ways for them to be able to live in the communities that they service as well. So it’s not one silver bullet here, but there’s a lot of different solutions. But I think Park City is better positioned to be able to deal with this than a lot of other places. You’ve got a town of 2 million people with lots of affordable housing options.

01:24:08.000 --> 01:24:25.000

Matthew Prince: within a 30-minute commute to the resort, which is, you know, an incredible luxury that basically none of the Colorado resorts have. And so while I think that, you know, housing prices are a difficult problem, and it’s always going to be tough, like, it’s going to be hard to have ski-in, ski-out.

01:24:25.000 --> 01:24:28.000

Matthew Prince: You know, on mountain employee housing.

01:24:28.000 --> 01:24:50.000

Matthew Prince: Because there’s always going to be an incentive for people to try and find some way to sell that, because you’re selling something for less than what it’s actually worth. But we’ve got lots of other communities around, and we’ve just got to find a way to work with that. And so what I’ve encouraged, you know, is how do we make sure that, yeah, it’s great to do things like after-school, you know, programs and daycare.

01:24:50.000 --> 01:25:12.000

Matthew Prince: inside Park City, but a lot of the people who are working in Park City don’t actually live in Park City. They live in the surrounding communities. So how can Park City be an advocate to those communities to say, let’s make sure that Henifer has the best, you know, after school, you know, programs available. Let’s make sure that, you know, Francis has an incredible, you know, preschool program.

01:25:12.000 --> 01:25:28.000

Matthew Prince: that’s open to anyone that’s there. Let’s make sure that, you know, clinics like the People’s Health Clinic extend their service outside of just the Park City community, but to the greater Summit and Wasatch County communities. And I think as you do that, and you think about it, not just about like.

01:25:28.000 --> 01:25:48.000

Matthew Prince: Park City proper and the town proper, but about the entire area and the entire community, there’s a way for that to be, you know, really important. There’s a guy who works at one of the locker rooms who I’ve become friends with who, you know, is Hispanic and moved to town years ago and bought a home in Heber.

01:25:48.000 --> 01:26:05.000

Matthew Prince: you know, when it was very affordable, and has watched that appreciate, and has made, you know, a really good life and living for himself and his family. And I think those are the stories that we need to encourage and tell, and foster more and more. There’s another guy who owns a…

01:26:05.000 --> 01:26:22.000

Matthew Prince: a restaurant called The Bridge and Flying Sumo in town, came to Park City on a J-1 visa, working basically as a janitor at Deer Valley, worked his way up, was a hard worker, and now is a business owner in town. We need to make it easier and easier for more and more people to do that, and what I’m committed to doing is saying, like.

01:26:22.000 --> 01:26:33.000

Matthew Prince: Let’s make sure that that’s the case, where we’re not, you know, just pricing everyone out of town, but we’re actually creating opportunities, not just in town, but across the greater community.

01:26:32.000 --> 01:26:49.000

Stuart Winchester: Part of the plan for getting more money to flow around, it seems like, was you made a comment to the Colorado Sun that I’ve not seen you expand upon elsewhere, and maybe you have, but if you could humor us here, you said the town should own part of the resort. What kind of model do you have in mind there?

01:26:49.000 --> 01:26:52.000

Stuart Winchester: And how do you see that benefiting the city as a whole?

01:26:51.000 --> 01:27:16.000

Matthew Prince: Yeah, again, what I think I said was that I would be open to that. I’ve had a couple of folks from city council say, hey, would you be willing to cut the town in on any deal? And I said, absolutely. But we just have to be really clear. Like my goal of this is not to make money off of this. And so I’m not going to be, I don’…

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Who

Sam Weintraub, Founder and CEO of PeakRankings

Date Recorded

Oct. 5, 2026

About PeakRankings

PeakRankings rates ski areas, plans trips, makes killer YouTube vids, and Instaposts and Facebooks (those are verbs, right?). Like me, they seem to have given up on TwiXXer. Please give them all the follows, but especially check out the trips page:

Why I interviewed him

Sunday evening, PeakRankings published an article headlined “Epic vs. Ikon: Which Pass Should You Buy Before Prices Go Up?” It’s an excellent breakdown of the two biggest ski passes by price, access, and region.

I’ve known Sam for a while. He started PeakRankings around the time that I started The Storm. We both found momentum during Covid when everyone was at home making macaroni replicas of their cats and injecting themselves with bleach. Good times. But everyone was bored enough to pay attention to a couple of ski media startups.

I don’t remember how we connected, but it turned out that Sam lived in the next neighborhood over, and one night we grabbed a few beers and talked skiing and ski media. Sam is younger than I am, and has been far more tuned-in and aggressive in his evolution from ski-ranking site to Insta/YouTube god (102k my dude!), to uniter-of-souls-via-ski-trip in our Age of Loneliness. He’s been generous with his time, insight, and advice, and we (my editor/wife and I), have learned a lot from Sam about deeking the algorithms.

One thing I’m very deliberate about is not over-relying on one source. Everyone in skiing is busy all the time, and over-communication is fatiguing for me, for them, and for listeners and readers. But as soon as I read the pass article, I emailed Sam – who I’d seen several times already over the past few weeks – to see if he could jump on and help us break everything down. He could, and he crushed it.

Resources

Epic Pass prices are set to increase Oct. 7, and Ikon will go up Oct. 8. Those are both probably fake deadlines and you can usually get those same rates for at least a day afterward, but don’t assume that will be so. Anyway, here’s what the major passes cost now:

You can view all the rosters here (scroll right to view). Here’s a nifty chart showing Epic and Ikon price changes over the years:

If you want to view all the Big Dumb Charts I screenshared showing differences in pass partners by size and region, here they are.

All of these charts are on a Big Dumb Google Sheet, otherwise known as The Encyclopedia Bro-Tannica, otherwise known as the U.S. American SnoSportSkiing Masterchart. Yes I know they look like s**t. Yes I know I need to migrate to something better. But what you see as you click through the tabs at the bottom is seven years of data entry fusing into something like an encyclopedia of American skiing. It’s just my worksheet, and I made it public because why the hell not? But like Joel from Open Snow said on my pod years ago, I move very slowly, but I’m always moving forward.

Transcripts

There are two transcripts. Both are generated by robots. Both are helpful and defective in their own unique ways. I do not proofread either of them.

Transcript 1: Click the “transcript” button at the top of this article. You can only see this transcript on a computer. Because I don’t know why exactly but everything is getting better and dumber all at once it seems. Anyway, this is the transcript that the robots create when I upload the podcast to the internet. The cool thing about it is that you can click on any block of text and the audio will teleport there instantly. The uncool thing about this transcript is that it does not indicate who is talking at any given moment.

Transcript 2: You can read this below. This is the transcript that Zoom creates as we record the podcast. The cool thing about this transcript is that it indicates who is talking at any given moment. The uncool thing about this transcript is that the timestamps do not match the audio. Also, you cannot click on this text to move to the associated point in the audio.

Zoom

Stuart Winchester: My guest today is the founder and CEO of PeakRankings. Sam Weintraub is my guest. Sam, welcome to the storm. I know you’re a few blocks away from me, but I don’t have a good in-person setup. How you doing today?

00:49:51.000 --> 00:50:07.000

Sam Weintraub: Good, thanks for having me, Stu. I know, we gotta figure it out, um, we’ll do maybe, like, a round 2 in the… I can just walk right over, um, I think it’s, like, 5 blocks away, it’s just up, um, Metropolitan Avenue, I don’t know if anyone.

00:50:06.000 --> 00:50:07.000

Stuart Winchester: Yah.

00:50:07.000 --> 00:50:08.000

Sam Weintraub: Oh.

00:50:09.000 --> 00:50:13.000

Sam Weintraub: watching or listening to this knows Brooklyn, but…

00:50:12.000 --> 00:50:14.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

00:50:14.000 --> 00:50:26.000

Stuart Winchester: So, you put on… this was a last-minute thing, and I really appreciate you coming on last minute here, Sam. So, you wrote a great article yesterday. Well, I don’t know who wrote it. PeakRankings released an article yesterday.

00:50:26.000 --> 00:50:32.000

Stuart Winchester: called Epic vs. Icon, which pass should you buy before prices go up? So…

00:50:32.000 --> 00:50:49.000

Stuart Winchester: At a very high level, let’s just talk Epic versus Icon and the price dates and lay those out for everybody and, uh, and what, what your baseline thought is on each pass from an affordability, from an access standpoint.

00:50:51.000 --> 00:50:58.000

Sam Weintraub: Yeah, so, I mean, what’s really interesting is in the 2020s, Epic and Icon have…

00:50:58.000 --> 00:51:04.000

Sam Weintraub: really started to take different market positions. So…

00:51:04.000 --> 00:51:11.000

Sam Weintraub: If you look back at, like, 2019, 2020, they were around the same price.

00:51:11.000 --> 00:51:12.000

Sam Weintraub: But…

00:51:12.000 --> 00:51:19.000

Sam Weintraub: I think both of them were still trying to figure out where they were, because…

00:51:19.000 --> 00:51:33.000

Sam Weintraub: I believe, and you can correct me if I’m wrong, I believe it was 2018, the first year that you could buy both the Epic and the Icon Pass. The Icon Pass used to have a predecessor called the Max Pass, and…

00:51:33.000 --> 00:51:48.000

Sam Weintraub: it wasn’t really, um… I don’t remember the specifics of the Max Pass, but it wasn’t really as comprehensive as the Icon Pass is, in terms of destination offerings especially, um, that the Icon Pass is today.

00:51:48.000 --> 00:52:03.000

Sam Weintraub: And so, I think, long story short, what happened was it became clear that the Icon Pass just had much more of a destination, like, fly-to-destination roster, and that.

00:52:03.000 --> 00:52:07.000

Sam Weintraub: continued to increase over the…

00:52:07.000 --> 00:52:22.000

Sam Weintraub: course of the 2020s, um, you know, the Icon Pass started adding more and more destinations, and it just got to the place where now, if you go almost anywhere, um, with potentially the exception of Colorado.

00:52:22.000 --> 00:52:30.000

Sam Weintraub: Tahoe, and Whistler, um, the Icon Pass is just going to offer more compelling.

00:52:30.000 --> 00:52:48.000

Sam Weintraub: Ski resorts when it comes to things like terrain quality, when it comes to snow quality in a lot of cases, especially in Utah, because you get in on Icon, even if you’re thinking of Park City as its own destination, which it really does deserve to be in a lot of ways because it’s so big.

00:52:48.000 --> 00:52:57.000

Sam Weintraub: uh, it gets, like, half the snow of the Cottonwood Mountains that are just west of it. So, ultimately, what we’ve arrived at, and I think the market.

00:52:53.000 --> 00:52:54.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

00:52:57.000 --> 00:53:04.000

Sam Weintraub: I think, and I say I think because I know Icon doesn’t release its past numbers, but I believe what has happened is that.

00:53:04.000 --> 00:53:06.000

Sam Weintraub: Icon is just…

00:53:06.000 --> 00:53:16.000

Sam Weintraub: you know, become more of a premium in terms of its pass offerings. Um, and Epic, you know, I believe it was 2021, they…

00:53:16.000 --> 00:53:35.000

Sam Weintraub: decided to drop all their pass prices by 20%, and they never caught back up with Icon. So now they’re actually more of the value play. Um, and that’s also reflective in some of their packaging. So, if you look at the Epic Local Pass, which is the competitor to the Icon Base Pass.

00:53:22.000 --> 00:53:23.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

00:53:35.000 --> 00:53:42.000

Sam Weintraub: those are, like, the products that come with holiday blackouts. So those are the ones, um, and I…

00:53:42.000 --> 00:53:44.000

Sam Weintraub: I think you probably have…

00:53:44.000 --> 00:53:50.000

Sam Weintraub: some of these sources as well, right, Stu? But I believe that, like, somewhere between 80…

00:53:50.000 --> 00:53:58.000

Sam Weintraub: to 85% of people who buy these passes get the base pass rather than the full. Um, is that correct?

00:53:57.000 --> 00:54:04.000

Stuart Winchester: That’s my general sense. You know, I’ve never been given an exact number, but yes, I’m hearing the same estimates.

00:54:03.000 --> 00:54:19.000

Sam Weintraub: Yeah, so with that being said, if you look at the Epic Local Pass versus the Icon Base Pass, the Epic Local Pass has a lot more leniency when it comes to those holiday blackouts. So if you look.

00:54:19.000 --> 00:54:28.000

Sam Weintraub: I believe at there are certain mountains in Colorado that are destination worthy. I believe Keystone.

00:54:28.000 --> 00:54:33.000

Sam Weintraub: I think Breckenridge, I would have to double check on that, Crested Butte, um…

00:54:33.000 --> 00:54:45.000

Sam Weintraub: Mount Snow, Okemo, those don’t have holiday blackouts, even if you have the Epic Local Pass. If you get the Icon Pass, you maybe have Copper, Eldora, Winter Park.

00:54:39.000 --> 00:54:40.000

Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Yeah.

00:54:45.000 --> 00:54:59.000

Sam Weintraub: those don’t have holiday blackouts, but everything else, if you have the Icon Base Pass, has holiday blackouts. So, the Epic Local Pass is a lot more flexible, and it’s less punishing than the Icon equivalent.

00:54:59.000 --> 00:55:14.000

Sam Weintraub: And I think, you know, when you take a look at the price discrepancy, the Epic Local Pass is, uh, around $200 less than the Icon Pass. You’re getting a product that is just much better in terms of the value. So…

00:55:14.000 --> 00:55:30.000

Sam Weintraub: So I guess just to sum it up, long story short, Epic is more of a value oriented pass at this point. And it’s great if you want to go to a veil owned mountain. That ecosystem is, you know, like a very useful one.

00:55:30.000 --> 00:55:36.000

Sam Weintraub: a lot more than just the pass access. There’s… there’s other things that are streamlined, like…

00:55:36.000 --> 00:55:52.000

Sam Weintraub: If you care about having an app that you can, you know, use at North Star and Stowe and Stevens Pass and Park City that has the exact same UI, you want to use your phone as a pass rather than a physical.

00:55:52.000 --> 00:56:08.000

Sam Weintraub: product. Like, those are all things that, because all of the Epic resorts, with the exception of, like, Vail, or with the exception of Telluride, maybe a couple that are outside the country, um, they’re all owned by Vail. So Vail has a lot more control over those things.

00:56:08.000 --> 00:56:19.000

Sam Weintraub: With Icon, you don’t. Um, but like I said, with Icon, you just have a lot more variety for, like, those dream destinations, um, that you might want to go to.

00:56:19.000 --> 00:56:33.000

Stuart Winchester: Yeah, and for those watching on stormskiing.com or YouTube at Storm Ski Journal, I’ve been putting a bunch of things up on the screen as Sam talks to show the prices. I want to talk a little bit about these… I want to hit that point you made, Sam, about more quality. So these are charts…

00:56:33.000 --> 00:56:38.000

Stuart Winchester: So, if you look at ski areas with over 1,000 vertical feet, Icon has 46.

00:56:38.000 --> 00:56:40.000

Stuart Winchester: Epic has 19.

00:56:40.000 --> 00:56:47.000

Stuart Winchester: Uh, if you look at Ski Area, it’s over 400 acres. Icon has 42, Epic has 14.

00:56:47.000 --> 00:56:51.000

Stuart Winchester: Uh, if you look at past numbers, partner numbers.

00:56:51.000 --> 00:56:53.000

Stuart Winchester: Uh, let me…

00:56:53.000 --> 00:56:55.000

Stuart Winchester: Do a few more here.

00:56:56.000 --> 00:56:59.000

Stuart Winchester: Okay, if you look at, for example.

00:56:59.000 --> 00:57:03.000

Sam Weintraub: This is a really impressive array of charts, too.

00:57:02.000 --> 00:57:17.000

Stuart Winchester: Thanks. I, I think it’s, uh, I, I’m getting some flack for making, doing this, uh, dizzying screen shares, but I’ll try to find a better way to present these. But, uh, number of ski areas in each pass, Icon has 103, Epic has 71. I have a little bit of an idiosyncratic way.

00:57:14.000 --> 00:57:16.000

Sam Weintraub: Sure.

00:57:17.000 --> 00:57:34.000

Stuart Winchester: Uh, counting ski areas. Uh, if you look at ski areas outside the US, Epic has, has actually more, actually, Icon’s not on that. So let me fix that chart. Uh, Icon total skiable acres, 83,306. Epic total acres, 40,573.

00:57:34.000 --> 00:57:42.000

Stuart Winchester: Uh, if you look at the distribution in the U.S, right here on this chart, and India actually has more than Epic as well.

00:57:42.000 --> 00:57:59.000

Stuart Winchester: And… Skier has more than 1,000 vertical feet, Epic has 19 in the US, Icon has 46. I mean, I go on and on. You can see these in my Encyclopedia Britannica, which is this gigantic, stupid chart I have linked from my past. You know, Sam, when you look at the… when you start to look at the prices, right?

00:57:59.000 --> 00:58:00.000

Stuart Winchester: I mean, I…

00:58:00.000 --> 00:58:03.000

Stuart Winchester: I was talking to someone recently who…

00:58:03.000 --> 00:58:06.000

Stuart Winchester: Is a person of means, runs a hedge fund.

00:58:06.000 --> 00:58:15.000

Stuart Winchester: And they needed to buy 5 passes for the year, right? And he’s like, I’m going Epic, because it’s so much less expensive. I mean, this is a guy who…

00:58:16.000 --> 00:58:27.000

Stuart Winchester: you know, could afford 5 Icon Passes. But it’s enough of a difference, it’s like a 30% price difference, and I have these prices up on the screen, and these are the prices now as we record this on October 5th.

00:58:27.000 --> 00:58:45.000

Stuart Winchester: You know, how much of a factor are you finding that that price difference is making in the marketplace, regardless of Icon’s superior roster? FXL has plenty of great mountains, more than most people can get to in a year. How much of a difference do you think that that’s making, and how much of an edge is it giving Vail to keep these.

00:58:45.000 --> 00:58:47.000

Stuart Winchester: Passes, pass prices lower.

00:58:47.000 --> 00:58:52.000

Sam Weintraub: Yeah, I mean, for a lot of people, there’s…

00:58:52.000 --> 00:59:09.000

Sam Weintraub: A singular number that matters. And that’s one. A lot of people are buying these passes. If you go on a week long trip, they pay off with just one mountain. So for a lot of people, if you don’t care whether you’re going to Vail or Deer Valley.

00:59:03.000 --> 00:59:05.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

00:59:09.000 --> 00:59:24.000

Sam Weintraub: or Park City, or Alta. Like, if you’re just going to one of those, then it doesn’t really matter, um, and you don’t have a strong preference as to which one you want to go to. Like, there are great mountains. If you’ve never been out west before, um.

00:59:24.000 --> 00:59:39.000

Sam Weintraub: the thing that could be the distinguisher is the pass price. Like, you could be going, like, let’s say, for example, you wanted to go to Vail. Um, it’s on the Epic Pass. The, uh, Park City, Whistler, um…

00:59:39.000 --> 00:59:48.000

Sam Weintraub: I think that does make a pretty big difference, um, if you really don’t have a strong opinion as to which.

00:59:48.000 --> 00:59:50.000

Sam Weintraub: resort you want to go to. If you just…

00:59:50.000 --> 01:00:05.000

Sam Weintraub: Want to go somewhere regionally, that’s where the past strengths and weaknesses become more of a factor. And ironically, I would say in the New York City area, Epic may actually be slightly more.

01:00:05.000 --> 01:00:23.000

Sam Weintraub: of a desirable pass to have than Icon because Epic has Hunter, whereas Icon, you’re kind of stuck if you don’t want to drive all the way up to Stratton, you’re kind of stuck going to the Poconos. Nothing against that, but Hunter is better than Camelback and Blue Mountain.

01:00:12.000 --> 01:00:13.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

01:00:18.000 --> 01:00:19.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

01:00:19.000 --> 01:00:21.000

Stuart Winchester: Right.

01:00:22.000 --> 01:00:24.000

Stuart Winchester: Oh yeah. Oh yeah.

01:00:23.000 --> 01:00:25.000

Sam Weintraub: In my opinion.

01:00:24.000 --> 01:00:32.000

Stuart Winchester: Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. So, you see the Epic Pass roster here, and one of the big differences, I think, Sam, is, uh…

01:00:32.000 --> 01:00:47.000

Stuart Winchester: when you get outside of North America, which is what these mountains are here. Uh And you look at this is the epic pass roster that I have in the Encyclopedia Britannica and the uh mega pass rosters tab and you have to scroll right. But the, the epic pass is over here on the left and the epic local is here on the right.

01:00:47.000 --> 01:01:05.000

Stuart Winchester: As far as what mountains you can access. And, and outside of the US you don’t get a lot. You do get the, the Japanese mountains, but, uh, you, Vail has included their premium mountains on Epic Local. You get 10 combined days between Beaver Creek, Vail, and, and Whistler. And that’s an amazing deal.

01:01:05.000 --> 01:01:18.000

Stuart Winchester: When you go over to the Icon Pass, not only is it 30% more expensive for the Major Pass, but once you go to Epic or Icon Base, you lose…

01:01:18.000 --> 01:01:33.000

Stuart Winchester: You see, you get a lot more international than you do with, uh, with Vail. Oh, that’s Session Pass, sorry. Um, so you get a lot more international access than you do with, with Epic Local, but you lose a lot of the places that you really want to go to. You lose Aspen, you lose Jackson Hole.

01:01:20.000 --> 01:01:22.000

Sam Weintraub: Mm-hmm.

01:01:33.000 --> 01:01:45.000

Stuart Winchester: You lose Alta, you lose Sun Valley, you lose Snow Basin. Uh, so… it’s… I really like Epic Local for just about anyone, and I believe you made that point.

01:01:45.000 --> 01:01:52.000

Stuart Winchester: yesterday in that article. Let’s talk a little bit about the day passes, Sam. I have been…

01:01:52.000 --> 01:02:02.000

Stuart Winchester: really hard on Altera with Icon Session. I think it’s just a terrible product. If you look at the roster, it only has 49 of…

01:01:56.000 --> 01:01:57.000

Sam Weintraub: Mm-hmm.

01:02:02.000 --> 01:02:16.000

Stuart Winchester: icons. Uh, let’s see how many… 103 total ski areas. Uh, I’m sorry, 53. And it leaves all the best ones out. There are blackout dates, even at ski areas Altera owns. It’s kind of expensive.

01:02:16.000 --> 01:02:20.000

Stuart Winchester: And then on the other side, you have Epic Day, which…

01:02:20.000 --> 01:02:24.000

Stuart Winchester: I can go to the current prices for all these.

01:02:24.000 --> 01:02:27.000

Stuart Winchester: is a really… a lot…

01:02:27.000 --> 01:02:35.000

Stuart Winchester: better deal. It’s getting a little expensive, but you can buy in one to… so, so, Icon Session is 2 to 4 day increments.

01:02:34.000 --> 01:02:35.000

Sam Weintraub: Mm-hmm.

01:02:35.000 --> 01:02:51.000

Stuart Winchester: And there’s blackouts, there’s no non-blackout option. Vail sells their Epic Day Pass in one to seven day increments, and there’s three different tiers of access. I just think this is such a good product, and you can see the current prices here on the screen.

01:02:51.000 --> 01:02:53.000

Stuart Winchester: Just talk about, uh…

01:02:53.000 --> 01:02:55.000

Stuart Winchester: Day passes, and, and…

01:02:55.000 --> 01:03:00.000

Stuart Winchester: how you think that can be used in a skier’s toolkit and which ones that you like.

01:03:00.000 --> 01:03:16.000

Sam Weintraub: Yeah, yeah. So I actually have many, many thoughts on this. First off, what I will say is I truly believe that Icon wants their session pass product to be bad on purpose. They do not want people to buy it.

01:03:04.000 --> 01:03:05.000

Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.

01:03:16.000 --> 01:03:31.000

Sam Weintraub: And I’m pretty sure they just haven’t figured out a way to make money on it. Like it’s a loss leader. I think one of the things that I remember having a conversation with the Icon Pass group salesperson, there was one.

01:03:21.000 --> 01:03:23.000

Stuart Winchester: Okay.

01:03:31.000 --> 01:03:47.000

Sam Weintraub: point where I was considering buying, like, 20 passes for a group of people, and the salesperson said that, you know, they could potentially do, like, a group sales deal for the Icon Base Pass, for the Full Icon Pass, but not the Icon Session Pass.

01:03:47.000 --> 01:03:48.000

Stuart Winchester: Hmm. Okay.

01:03:47.000 --> 01:03:55.000

Sam Weintraub: And they just couldn’t afford to discount that pass. And I got the sense it’s just because they’re not making any money on it. And like…

01:03:53.000 --> 01:03:55.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

01:03:55.000 --> 01:03:58.000

Sam Weintraub: I think, you know…

01:03:58.000 --> 01:04:13.000

Sam Weintraub: The thing that the Icon Session Pass gives Icon is the ability to advertise that you can get an Icon Pass for as low as… I don’t remember the exact amount, but something like $2.99 for the two-day pass.

01:04:12.000 --> 01:04:13.000

Stuart Winchester: Right.

01:04:13.000 --> 01:04:19.000

Sam Weintraub: Like, Icon can say, Icon Pass starting at $299. That is…

01:04:17.000 --> 01:04:18.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

01:04:19.000 --> 01:04:27.000

Sam Weintraub: probably something that gets some people through the door to their website. I’m not a marketing expert, but that’s something that…

01:04:27.000 --> 01:04:45.000

Sam Weintraub: I wouldn’t be surprised if that’s their strategy. It’s their loss leader. Um, you know how, like, tech companies have, like, the really bad, like, base product, and then the middle product that they recommend to everyone, then the top tier that almost no one gets? Like, icon session, icon base, and then full icon.

01:04:39.000 --> 01:04:40.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

01:04:41.000 --> 01:04:43.000

Stuart Winchester: Yeah.

01:04:45.000 --> 01:04:59.000

Sam Weintraub: follows that recipe almost to a T. But anyway, that in mind, I think that the Epic Day Pass is a much, much, much more compelling product. Um, unfortunately for Icon, uh.

01:04:47.000 --> 01:04:48.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

01:04:59.000 --> 01:05:09.000

Sam Weintraub: Epic just has the flexibility to offer these products, because they own almost all of the mountains that are on the pass. And, you know, I wouldn’t be surprised if Epic.

01:05:02.000 --> 01:05:03.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

01:05:09.000 --> 01:05:24.000

Sam Weintraub: loses money on the partner mountains that it offers the day pass for as well. And, you know, a big part of that you could kind of get a sense of is that even if you get the top-tier Epic Day Pass.

01:05:14.000 --> 01:05:15.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

01:05:24.000 --> 01:05:33.000

Sam Weintraub: you don’t get access to the partner resorts unless you buy at least 4 days. So, I would imagine what Epic figured out.

01:05:29.000 --> 01:05:30.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

01:05:33.000 --> 01:05:44.000

Sam Weintraub: is if, like, someone buys a Epic Day Pass, and they want to go to Telluride, they’re more likely to use all those days at Telluride if they get a lower…

01:05:44.000 --> 01:06:02.000

Sam Weintraub: number of days, and so they only want someone to, like, use their days at, like, tech, uh, like Telluride, or like those, um, you know, RCR resorts like Kicking Horse, Kimberley, uh, Fernie, if there is a high likelihood that they use them at the, uh, Vail Owns Mountains as well, where they’re likely profitable.

01:05:45.000 --> 01:05:47.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

01:05:53.000 --> 01:05:54.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

01:06:00.000 --> 01:06:02.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

01:06:02.000 --> 01:06:07.000

Sam Weintraub: So I think Vale just really has the economics of this.

01:06:07.000 --> 01:06:16.000

Sam Weintraub: down, um, but that is actually where I wanted to talk about some options that most people who.

01:06:16.000 --> 01:06:33.000

Sam Weintraub: are considering the Icon Session Pass probably don’t even know about. Most of the mountains that are on the Icon Session Pass are also available on like three or most, most, most commonly four packs that you can buy through the resorts.

01:06:19.000 --> 01:06:21.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

01:06:31.000 --> 01:06:32.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

01:06:33.000 --> 01:06:49.000

Sam Weintraub: or the company that owns the resorts as well. Like, for example, and I don’t know if you have… I’m sure you’ve probably looked at the ones that Boeing offers, but, like, for example, I think you could get a 4-pack that you could use at the Northeast.

01:06:36.000 --> 01:06:38.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

01:06:43.000 --> 01:06:44.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

01:06:49.000 --> 01:07:06.000

Sam Weintraub: Boyne-owned resorts, like Loon, Sunday River, Sugarloaf. You could get a four-pack for Copper. You could get one for, I think, Winter Park. A lot of these resorts, they just have their own four-pack options, and those are gonna be much better values than the session pass options.

01:06:53.000 --> 01:06:54.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

01:07:01.000 --> 01:07:02.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

01:07:06.000 --> 01:07:12.000

Sam Weintraub: Um, so if you’re still considering, like, going to these resorts, and you don’t want to buy an exorbitant day ticket, like.

01:07:11.000 --> 01:07:12.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

01:07:12.000 --> 01:07:28.000

Sam Weintraub: Actually, my favorite, one of my favorites is Sugarbush, where you can buy a $99 flexible, they call it a TBD ticket. You not only get a flexible pass to use any day at Sugarbush, but you also get a comp for every one of those.

01:07:28.000 --> 01:07:36.000

Sam Weintraub: one-day passes you buy, you get a complimentary ticket after April 1st to use any day after April 1st. But anyway.

01:07:34.000 --> 01:07:35.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

01:07:36.000 --> 01:07:51.000

Sam Weintraub: I just think that, like, the Icon Session Pass is a terrible product on purpose, and you can tell by the fact that you can get better deals on many Icon partners by just going to the, like, individual pass products offered by.

01:07:47.000 --> 01:07:48.000

Stuart Winchester: Right.

01:07:51.000 --> 01:07:54.000

Sam Weintraub: many of the ICON partners themselves.

01:07:54.000 --> 01:08:09.000

Stuart Winchester: You know, what’s so funny about this, and this is just a little background for the readers, is I’ll see you tomorrow, I’m sure, at the ICON Pass media event that they host in New York City every day. So, if you’re ever wondering if Sam and I are being objective, I think you just point to this podcast and say yes.

01:08:01.000 --> 01:08:04.000

Sam Weintraub: Yes, yes.

01:08:09.000 --> 01:08:25.000

Stuart Winchester: And, and I’ve told Altera this, and I, I, I think that they could at least take their owned mountains, you know, Mammoth, Palisades, Sugarbush, Winter Park, and, and make, make a version of Icon Session. There’s unlimited on them, as they’ve done with Icon Base and the full icon. You know, Sam, you.

01:08:26.000 --> 01:08:35.000

Stuart Winchester: that… that was a really good point about the Daypacks, by the way, and I made a chart that I can’t find last year, showing that in almost every case, Altera’s owned mountains.

01:08:32.000 --> 01:08:33.000

Sam Weintraub: Mm-hmm.

01:08:35.000 --> 01:08:50.000

Stuart Winchester: Have a four pack that’s cheaper than icon session and has no holiday blackouts. It was, it’s amazing. So you mentioned that you were trying to buy a group of 20 icon passes. You also part, a big part of peakrankings is you run trips.

01:08:38.000 --> 01:08:40.000

Sam Weintraub: Yeah.

01:08:40.000 --> 01:08:41.000

Sam Weintraub: Mm-hmm.

01:08:51.000 --> 01:09:04.000

Stuart Winchester: And what I’ve seen from watching C clubs from afar, and I used to go, shout out to Diamond Dogs, that was my club back in the day, before I got into this and started, uh, doing different places, but the clubs have started to match.

01:09:04.000 --> 01:09:17.000

Stuart Winchester: their trip queue with a pass. So, this year, we’re doing Epic. Buy Epic, because we’re going to Vail, Heavenly, uh, and Lathree Valleys, and, you know, another group, BICOM, we’re going to Revelstoke.

01:09:08.000 --> 01:09:09.000

Sam Weintraub: Hmm.

01:09:17.000 --> 01:09:22.000

Stuart Winchester: Alta and, uh, you know, Aspen or something. So, do you…

01:09:22.000 --> 01:09:34.000

Stuart Winchester: How do you think about passes, and how do you see people thinking about passes in relation to the trips that you plan, and the way that that sort of influences their behavior throughout the rest of the winter?

01:09:34.000 --> 01:09:52.000

Sam Weintraub: Yeah, absolutely. So as you alluded to, one of the parts of running peakrankings at this point is we now run a peak house group ski trips. And so we rent out like a huge chalet and we’ll fit, you know, 10 to 20 people in there, depending on where we’re going.

01:09:52.000 --> 01:10:03.000

Sam Weintraub: But you’re absolutely on the money that the pass is a big part of how we plan these trips. So, you know, what we’re trying to do is…

01:10:03.000 --> 01:10:16.000

Sam Weintraub: we try to plan the majority of the domestic trips around a specific Pass product, because we’ve heard from our readers, our watchers, our clients, that they want to go to.

01:10:16.000 --> 01:10:32.000

Sam Weintraub: you know, a region that they can choose one pass, and they can go to all the resorts based off of that pass. Or there are, like, certain small cases, like, for example, for our Peak House Vermont trip to Sugarbush this year, enough people.

01:10:32.000 --> 01:10:46.000

Sam Weintraub: want to check out Mad River Glen, and the lift tickets are cheap enough that they still are willing to pay for one day of tickets at, like, you know, kind of a bucket list place, but in general, people will plan these, like.

01:10:46.000 --> 01:10:50.000

Sam Weintraub: to go on these trips based on what pass they get. And so…

01:10:50.000 --> 01:11:06.000

Sam Weintraub: We do a lot of research maybe like a year in advance at this point. So we released our 2027 roster, I think for the most part in March, 2026. And that was designed so that people could buy their passes.

01:11:02.000 --> 01:11:03.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

01:11:06.000 --> 01:11:25.000

Sam Weintraub: and then decide which trip they wanted to go on based off of which passes were available. So, like, if someone was planning to go on our Whistler trip, they would get the Epic Pass. If someone was planning to go on our Utah trip, they would go and probably get the Icon Full Pass, because if you don’t have the Icon Full Pass.

01:11:25.000 --> 01:11:38.000

Sam Weintraub: I’m sure your listeners know this, but it’s kind of a pain to go to the best Utah resorts if you have the Icon Base Pass, and I know we didn’t discuss it in general, but, like, also a little bit Mountain Collective.

01:11:38.000 --> 01:11:42.000

Sam Weintraub: Um, and then there was one trip that, like.

01:11:42.000 --> 01:11:56.000

Sam Weintraub: people actually requested that we do an IndyPass trip this year. So that’s why we’re doing our Indy Inland Northwest trip, where we’re going to 49 degrees north, Silver, Brundage, and Tamarack. Um, and we almost…

01:11:45.000 --> 01:11:46.000

Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm. Oh, cool.

01:11:49.000 --> 01:11:50.000

Stuart Winchester: Oh, wow.

01:11:54.000 --> 01:11:57.000

Stuart Winchester: Oh, wow. That’s awesome. That’s an awesome trip.

01:11:56.000 --> 01:12:11.000

Sam Weintraub: It’s going to be sick. We had almost a little bit of a heart attack when Tamarack was announced on Icon because we were like, OK, hopefully this doesn’t mess up our plans. Also very glad that we didn’t plan IndiePass based Luton Granite Peak.

01:11:58.000 --> 01:11:59.000

Stuart Winchester: Yeah.

01:12:03.000 --> 01:12:04.000

Stuart Winchester: Yeah, I think so.

01:12:11.000 --> 01:12:15.000

Sam Weintraub: in Snow River trip for this year, but…

01:12:14.000 --> 01:12:18.000

Stuart Winchester: You know that India’s confirmed that the Tamarack will be on India this year.

01:12:17.000 --> 01:12:27.000

Sam Weintraub: Yes, yes, yes. So that was an interesting news week, though.

01:12:18.000 --> 01:12:20.000

Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Okay.

01:12:27.000 --> 01:12:42.000

Sam Weintraub: yeah, basically, um, it is remarkable outside of probably, like, you know, some of the international trips, like Japan, Chile, but domestically, how much, like, you know, the past affiliation of these trips goes into what people.

01:12:42.000 --> 01:12:46.000

Sam Weintraub: want to do, and how they’ve decided what trips they want to go on.

01:12:46.000 --> 01:12:52.000

Stuart Winchester: Yeah, it’s really interesting to see how, over time, that macro effect.

01:12:52.000 --> 01:13:08.000

Stuart Winchester: bunches people into, you know, maybe they ski a lot, and they’ve skied all over, but they never skied it like Vail, because they are always Icon Pass. You know, you mentioned Mountain Collective Center. I want to talk about Mountain Collective, and they had a media event in New York City last year, last week as well, and I love Todd, and I want to give him.

01:13:05.000 --> 01:13:07.000

Sam Weintraub: Mm-hmm.

01:13:08.000 --> 01:13:13.000

Stuart Winchester: his credit here. So the Mountain Collective, I kind of think of this as what…

01:13:13.000 --> 01:13:26.000

Stuart Winchester: the icon session should be, like, the tier below icon base, because if you look, I… so on this chart, on the Encyclopedia Britannica, I put the Mountain Collective roster, and I also put.

01:13:16.000 --> 01:13:18.000

Sam Weintraub: Yeah, yeah.

01:13:26.000 --> 01:13:38.000

Stuart Winchester: every mountain that’s on there that’s also on Icon, so you can see the ones that are on Icon. There’s a lot of overlap. There’s only a few that are on Mountain Collective that aren’t on, uh…

01:13:38.000 --> 01:13:49.000

Stuart Winchester: Icon, and those are Sugarbush and Targhee in the U.S, and Marmot Basin in Canada, and there might be one overseas. But, uh, so if you look at this, the mountains, they do have a mountain collective.

01:13:49.000 --> 01:14:06.000

Stuart Winchester: Uh, are the ones that are not on Icon Base. So, they have, they have Alta, they have, uh, well, Snowbird is on Icon Base, they have, but you get four days, or two days combined at the Aspen Mountains, and you get Jackson Hole, and you get also Big Sky and Taos, which are on Icon Base.

01:13:52.000 --> 01:13:54.000

Sam Weintraub: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

01:14:06.000 --> 01:14:18.000

Stuart Winchester: you get Snow Basin, and you get, uh… Sun Valley. So you get all these, and the non-collective right now is $729. It was much cheaper, it was about $100 cheaper at its… at its core, uh…

01:14:18.000 --> 01:14:34.000

Stuart Winchester: Early bird price, so you have Mountain Collective, and then you have Indy, which is just phenomenal, I mean, 254 ski areas around the world, uh, that’s just Alpine, they have a bunch of cross country too, which I can’t keep track of, 2 days at each, uh, and, and the pass is ridiculously cheap, it’s not on sale right now, but.

01:14:34.000 --> 01:14:48.000

Stuart Winchester: Its last price was $419 for a pass with some blackouts, and $469 for one with no blackouts. But talk about these alternatives, Sam, because I think we live in a world where these passes are priced.

01:14:48.000 --> 01:14:57.000

Stuart Winchester: at a rate that you really can get two, right? Because you can get, I think, and I think Indian Mountain Collective pair great together.

01:14:55.000 --> 01:14:57.000

Sam Weintraub: Yeah, yeah.

01:14:57.000 --> 01:15:05.000

Stuart Winchester: Uh, and… and I think, you know, if you have an Epic Local or an Icon Bass, get an Indy Pass, because it’s… it’s gonna get you for less than the price of.

01:15:05.000 --> 01:15:24.000

Stuart Winchester: Epic or IconPass, access to all these mountains. So, just talk a little bit about these products, and, you know, interesting tidbit, IndiePass told me that their pass sales are up, they hit records. Meanwhile, Epic is going down. So, talk about these alternatives, and how you think they fit in, and it sounds like.

01:15:16.000 --> 01:15:18.000

Sam Weintraub: Mm.

01:15:25.000 --> 01:15:37.000

Stuart Winchester: people are starting to take them seriously, and I think especially Indy was dismissed for many years as having, like, mountains that weren’t worth traveling for, which we both know isn’t true. So, just talk a little bit about these alternatives, and which ones you like, and why.

01:15:32.000 --> 01:15:33.000

Sam Weintraub: Yeah.

01:15:37.000 --> 01:15:42.000

Sam Weintraub: Yeah, for sure. I think having the two mega pass hack.

01:15:42.000 --> 01:15:56.000

Sam Weintraub: up your sleeve is a great option now. Like, having… having… especially Epic and Indy. Indy is great in a lot of regions that Epic is just completely missing. Like, the Northwest, um…

01:15:56.000 --> 01:15:59.000

Sam Weintraub: Some places abroad, like…

01:15:59.000 --> 01:16:02.000

Sam Weintraub: Indy is just a great, you know.

01:16:02.000 --> 01:16:07.000

Sam Weintraub: trick to have in your… your pocket. And… I think, in general.

01:16:04.000 --> 01:16:05.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

01:16:07.000 --> 01:16:13.000

Sam Weintraub: what’s great about the Indy Pass is that you can get.

01:16:13.000 --> 01:16:23.000

Sam Weintraub: like, especially if you have the Epic Local Pass and you are subject to certain blackouts, you can now get, like, the full Indy Pass for not that much more than the Indy Base Pass, which…

01:16:17.000 --> 01:16:18.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

01:16:23.000 --> 01:16:36.000

Sam Weintraub: the Indy Base Pass has some of the worst blackout policies of any pass I’ve ever seen in my life, but it’s not that much more expensive to get the full Indy Pass at this point. I think it’s called the Indy Plus Pass. Um, so…

01:16:32.000 --> 01:16:34.000

Stuart Winchester: Yah.

01:16:34.000 --> 01:16:35.000

Stuart Winchester: Yes.

01:16:36.000 --> 01:16:47.000

Sam Weintraub: The problem with the Indy Pass is a lot of these mountains are still pretty mediocre compared to the.

01:16:45.000 --> 01:16:46.000

Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.

01:16:47.000 --> 01:17:00.000

Sam Weintraub: roster on Epic Icon and Mountain Collective. Like, most of these are not going to be proper destinations, but they’re gonna be, like, good regional mountains. Obviously, the Inland Northwest is.

01:16:53.000 --> 01:16:54.000

Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.

01:17:00.000 --> 01:17:16.000

Sam Weintraub: One of those exceptions, like it’s got Mount Hood Meadows. It’s Northern Vermont is an exception as well. It’s got some of the best resorts in Northern Vermont. But like one of the biggest problems with Indy is something that, you know, like it’s.

01:17:09.000 --> 01:17:10.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

01:17:16.000 --> 01:17:31.000

Sam Weintraub: affordable price tag kind of knocks out. Like, the good news is that, you know, it’s a two-day pass, uh, it’s a two-day, um, part… all of… or to rephrase it, all of the mountains on the Indy Pass are two-day partners.

01:17:31.000 --> 01:17:38.000

Sam Weintraub: But you don’t really need more than two days at most of these mountains. So it kind of works to its benefit.

01:17:38.000 --> 01:17:42.000

Sam Weintraub: The big thing that is a…

01:17:42.000 --> 01:17:47.000

Sam Weintraub: still the biggest drawback, in my opinion, about getting either the Indy Pass.

01:17:47.000 --> 01:18:03.000

Sam Weintraub: And to a lesser extent, the Mountain Collective, but I’ll go through why I say to a lesser extent in a sec for Mountain Collective. But the biggest issue with the Indy Pass is if you want to do a lazy week-long vacation anywhere, you can’t really with the Indy Pass, because it’s only two days of access to all of its partner resorts.

01:17:50.000 --> 01:17:51.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

01:17:52.000 --> 01:17:53.000

Stuart Winchester: Yes.

01:17:59.000 --> 01:18:01.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

01:18:03.000 --> 01:18:04.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

01:18:03.000 --> 01:18:05.000

Sam Weintraub: And I think I…

01:18:05.000 --> 01:18:21.000

Sam Weintraub: I can totally understand why the Indy Pass is getting more popular. Um, I think part of it is because they continue to add more mountains. Um, the second is, I think Eric Mogenson, who is the head of Indy Pass, is really, really good at getting attention.

01:18:21.000 --> 01:18:22.000

Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.

01:18:21.000 --> 01:18:36.000

Sam Weintraub: Um, and I think he’s done a much better job in terms of like making it known that the Indy Pass exists and in terms of branding, like the fact that the Indy, like, I think the Indy Pass branding in the early 2020s was very, like, it’s…

01:18:36.000 --> 01:18:38.000

Sam Weintraub: Still felt like it was…

01:18:38.000 --> 01:18:48.000

Sam Weintraub: not handled… I don’t want to say professionally, but it wasn’t up to snuff with, like, Epic and Icon. These days, that gap is much, much narrower.

01:18:48.000 --> 01:19:03.000

Sam Weintraub: But yeah, I think the Indie Pass, in terms of, like, just getting so many more partners, and more people continuing to get value out of these passes, I also think that the, um, the…

01:19:03.000 --> 01:19:08.000

Sam Weintraub: Manufactured scarcity is probably…

01:19:08.000 --> 01:19:25.000

Sam Weintraub: Working to a certain extent. And the reason I say manufactured scarcity is I don’t think anyone who was following closely thought that the Indy Pass selling out in 37 minutes in the spring was actually going to be the end of the Indy Pass sales. And then when the Indy Pass went back on sale this.

01:19:20.000 --> 01:19:22.000

Stuart Winchester: Right.

01:19:25.000 --> 01:19:27.000

Sam Weintraub: Fall, there was no, like…

01:19:27.000 --> 01:19:43.000

Sam Weintraub: you know, there was an actual deadline that was time-based rather than demand-based. So, you know, with that all being said, those are all marketing techniques. In terms of the actual quality of the IndiePass, it really comes down to.

01:19:43.000 --> 01:20:00.000

Sam Weintraub: if you want an affordable pass, and you’re willing to do, you know, some traveling to get between mountains, it is a great option. Um, like I said, the drawbacks are the fact that the mountains are just not going to be as polished for the most part, or in a lot of cases, as big. Um, and you can’t really do a week-long.

01:19:56.000 --> 01:19:57.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

01:20:00.000 --> 01:20:13.000

Sam Weintraub: vacation to a lot of these places using exclusively the pass, although I believe you do get discounts on a third day, maybe, maybe more. I think it’s just the third day, though. Um, but you do get discounts on.

01:20:13.000 --> 01:20:18.000

Sam Weintraub: continuing to visit those mountains.

01:20:18.000 --> 01:20:26.000

Sam Weintraub: But yeah, the Indy Pass is great for people who road trip and want to potentially visit multiple different mountains.

01:20:25.000 --> 01:20:41.000

Stuart Winchester: So before you jump over to Mountain Collective, I want to highlight that trip you just said, because I want people to understand that if you are willing to do a little bit of hoofing, it is worth it. So 49 degrees, I think you said 49 North, Silver, Brundage, and Tamarack. Okay, awesome mountains. And let’s just…

01:20:37.000 --> 01:20:39.000

Sam Weintraub: Yeah.

01:20:41.000 --> 01:20:56.000

Stuart Winchester: Statistically, look at these, okay? So, 49 North has an 1,851-foot vertical drop, has 2,200-skilled lakers, tons of glades, 301 inches of annual snowfall. Then we go up to Idaho, and Silver Mountain is owned by the same fellow.

01:20:56.000 --> 01:21:14.000

Stuart Winchester: who owns 49 North, and by the way, he put in a high-speed quad based to Summit at 49 North, they’re putting in another new lift this year, and it… it… when I talked to the GM, it doubled their skier visits, so that’s a great place. Silver, one of my favorite ski areas anywhere, 2,200 feet of vert, uh, 1,800 acres, and 328 inches annual s.

01:20:56.000 --> 01:20:58.000

Sam Weintraub: Mm-hmm.

01:21:14.000 --> 01:21:30.000

Stuart Winchester: Silver is kind of magical because you exit the highway, you sit in the parking lot, there’s a gondola, you take it 3 miles up to the ski area, it’s like being in Europe, and then you just ski up there and there’s no one there, and it’s all fixed grip lifts, but it doesn’t really matter because the skiing is so good. Then you have.

01:21:30.000 --> 01:21:47.000

Stuart Winchester: 1,900 vertical feet, 1,900 skiable acres, 300 inches of average annual snowfall. They just put in a second high-speed quad. They’re really making moves, and they have McCall, a nice little cool ski town down there, which I’m sure you’re probably staying at. And there’s another little rope tow called, uh, or T-bar called.

01:21:41.000 --> 01:21:43.000

Sam Weintraub: Yes, yeah.

01:21:47.000 --> 01:21:52.000

Stuart Winchester: With your Indy Pass. And then, uh, obviously you have Tamarack, which…

01:21:52.000 --> 01:22:07.000

Stuart Winchester: For some reason, it’s not showing up in my chart, I’ll look into that, but that’s… I think they have 3 high-speed quads, and that’s a really great mountain, which is why Icon, I think, added it. So, that’s… you can really get a great trip out of Indy at those price points if you.

01:21:57.000 --> 01:21:58.000

Sam Weintraub: Hmm.

01:22:05.000 --> 01:22:06.000

Sam Weintraub: Yeah.

01:22:07.000 --> 01:22:13.000

Stuart Winchester: if what you care about the most about skiing is skiing, so… so sorry to interrupt you, let’s jump to Mountain Collective.

01:22:10.000 --> 01:22:12.000

Sam Weintraub: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:22:13.000 --> 01:22:20.000

Sam Weintraub: Also, on the little ski hill, I’ll see if my trip lead wants to go there, because I hadn’t even thought of that small one, but that’s…

01:22:17.000 --> 01:22:19.000

Stuart Winchester: Yes.

01:22:20.000 --> 01:22:27.000

Stuart Winchester: Yeah, I think it’s on the… I think it’s on the Access Road to Brundage, but it’s… and it’s also on Indy, so I’m sure they.

01:22:21.000 --> 01:22:23.000

Sam Weintraub: Pretty interesting.

01:22:23.000 --> 01:22:25.000

Sam Weintraub: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:22:28.000 --> 01:22:32.000

Stuart Winchester: And a rating from PeakRankings.

01:22:29.000 --> 01:22:32.000

Sam Weintraub: Yeah.

01:22:32.000 --> 01:22:34.000

Sam Weintraub: But, okay.

01:22:32.000 --> 01:22:34.000

Stuart Winchester: I…

01:22:34.000 --> 01:22:36.000

Stuart Winchester: So, Mountain Collective.

01:22:34.000 --> 01:22:35.000

Sam Weintraub: Go ahead.

01:22:36.000 --> 01:22:45.000

Sam Weintraub: Yes. So, okay. First thing about Mountain Collective is it is just insane that given the economics of.

01:22:45.000 --> 01:22:58.000

Sam Weintraub: today’s ski companies that Mountain Collective even exists. Like, I imagine if it weren’t for a very unique set of circumstances, Icon would never allow this pass to exist. Um, like…

01:22:56.000 --> 01:22:58.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

01:22:59.000 --> 01:23:06.000

Sam Weintraub: Mountain Collective, if I remember correctly, has just been around much, much longer than the Icon Pass, right?

01:23:06.000 --> 01:23:07.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

01:23:06.000 --> 01:23:14.000

Sam Weintraub: And so, a lot of these legacy agreements, like, the partners who are not on the Icon Base Pass.

01:23:08.000 --> 01:23:09.000

Stuart Winchester: It’s 2012.

01:23:14.000 --> 01:23:26.000

Sam Weintraub: they probably just have these agreements with… with Mountain Collective. They’ve been on Mountain Collective a lot longer than the Icon Passes even existed. Um, but with that being said, Mountain Collective is…

01:23:26.000 --> 01:23:41.000

Stuart Winchester: Hey, Sam, let me jump in there, because I want to point something out. So we went to the Mountain Collective Media event in New York City last week, right? And who was there? Boyne Resorts president, Stephen Kircher. Aspen Snowmass president, Jeff Buchheister. Longtime Snowbird head, Dave Field.

01:23:26.000 --> 01:23:28.000

Sam Weintraub: Great.

01:23:32.000 --> 01:23:34.000

Sam Weintraub: Yes.

01:23:41.000 --> 01:23:54.000

Stuart Winchester: And Alta’s Mike McGowan, who’s retiring in their new GM. When we go tomorrow, I love all these people, but it’ll be, like, their comms head and their PR people. Mountain Collective is, like, their little country club.

01:23:54.000 --> 01:24:05.000

Stuart Winchester: And as long as they keep this country club, they have some leverage over Icon. And this is my narrative, this is what I think, no one’s ever said this so much to me. But when you look at it, it’s like…

01:24:00.000 --> 01:24:01.000

Sam Weintraub: Mm-hmm.

01:24:05.000 --> 01:24:10.000

Stuart Winchester: yeah, you want Big Sky, you want Jackson Hole, you want Aspen… well, Aspen’s sort.

01:24:10.000 --> 01:24:25.000

Stuart Winchester: you know, owns Vaughn Collective and has a stake in ICON as well, but regardless, you see it’s like this little ICON insurance they have to say, don’t mess with us because we do have some leverage and some power here. That’s my take. Anyway, back to you.

01:24:12.000 --> 01:24:13.000

Sam Weintraub: Sure.

01:24:25.000 --> 01:24:39.000

Sam Weintraub: Yeah, no, I can see how you think about it that way. For all these mountains, well, actually, I just want to extend your point a little bit. With Icon, I think…

01:24:35.000 --> 01:24:37.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

01:24:39.000 --> 01:24:54.000

Sam Weintraub: Altera is just, like, in a situation where they want those partners more, maybe, in some circumstances than those partners want them. That might be overstating it a little bit, but, like, you know, Icon…

01:24:49.000 --> 01:24:51.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

01:24:54.000 --> 01:25:09.000

Sam Weintraub: they are being very generous with a lot of these, I think, mountains, and that’s what they’ve gotten basically every destination that is not owned by Vail onto the pass. Um, and so, like, I could totally see.

01:25:06.000 --> 01:25:07.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

01:25:09.000 --> 01:25:26.000

Sam Weintraub: Of, um, like kind of where you’re coming at from that perspective. Um, but it is amazing to me that there hasn’t been like some massive squabble that’s come through where Icon’s been like, hey, you have to choose between Icon or Mountain Collective.

01:25:26.000 --> 01:25:31.000

Sam Weintraub: Um, and you can’t be on both. Like, there have been some other situations like that.

01:25:28.000 --> 01:25:34.000

Stuart Winchester: In 2022, they did pull their mountains. They pulled Palisades, Mammoth, and Sugarbush, their last three.

01:25:31.000 --> 01:25:44.000

Sam Weintraub: They did. Yes, yes, yes. They did. They did pull the mountains that they own, but they didn’t force any of the ones that they didn’t own off of the mountain collective pass. And that is really interesting to me.

01:25:36.000 --> 01:25:37.000

Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Yeah.

01:25:44.000 --> 01:25:48.000

Sam Weintraub: Yeah, basically, with Mountain Collective, what is…

01:25:48.000 --> 01:26:02.000

Sam Weintraub: really interesting about this pass is it’s another one where you do have to do some work a lot of the time to actually use it, but you get access to, like, to, like, world-class resorts, rather than Indy, which, you know.

01:26:02.000 --> 01:26:17.000

Sam Weintraub: There are some great mountains on there, but you don’t have people saving up their, you know, you don’t have people saving up to go on vacation and getting on a plane a lot of the time to go to those mountains and dreaming of them for their entire lives.

01:26:17.000 --> 01:26:25.000

Sam Weintraub: With Mountain Collective, you really do have dream resorts on here, for the most part. Um, I would say that…

01:26:20.000 --> 01:26:22.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

01:26:25.000 --> 01:26:38.000

Sam Weintraub: what is interesting about Mountain Collective is if you really know how to use the pass, you can absolutely just go to one place and get your money’s worth. So, for example, if you buy Mountain Collective.

01:26:38.000 --> 01:26:54.000

Sam Weintraub: well, actually, I’ll start with, if you go to certain regions, you will be at mountains that are so close to each other, like, high-quality mountains that are so close to each other, that you can basically use the pass as, like, a near-week or week-long, uh, vehicle.

01:26:54.000 --> 01:27:01.000

Sam Weintraub: for visiting them. Um, and the first case for this is… I would actually start with… with Western Canada. So…

01:26:55.000 --> 01:26:56.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

01:27:01.000 --> 01:27:17.000

Sam Weintraub: if you go to Banff, um, you get 2 days at Lake Louise, and you get 2 days at Banff Sunshine. What’s really interesting about Mountain Collective is the days at Lake Louise and Banff Sunshine are not shared between the two of them. If you get an Icon Pass.

01:27:17.000 --> 01:27:26.000

Sam Weintraub: The days are shared. So if you have an icon base pass, you get five days with blackouts on Lake Louise.

01:27:26.000 --> 01:27:27.000

Sam Weintraub: um…

01:27:27.000 --> 01:27:42.000

Sam Weintraub: Banff Sunshine and Mount Norquay, the third of which people probably aren’t going to as much, but you get five days between the three of them with blackouts. If you go to, if you go to that same region with the Mountain Collective, you don’t get Norquay.

01:27:42.000 --> 01:28:01.000

Sam Weintraub: which a lot of people probably will be okay with, um, but the two much better mountains, Lake Louise and Mammoth Sunshine, you get two days at both of those, and there are no blackouts, so you could also buy… I believe you get 50% off a third day at those resorts, and that’s where Mountain Collective actually becomes.

01:27:51.000 --> 01:27:52.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

01:28:01.000 --> 01:28:15.000

Sam Weintraub: a massive hack if you do your due diligence on the economics. The fact that you can get 50% off a one-day Lyft ticket, especially when those Lyft tickets can come out to over $200 in some cases, like.

01:28:15.000 --> 01:28:21.000

Sam Weintraub: You can still get a better deal by doing five days at.

01:28:21.000 --> 01:28:35.000

Sam Weintraub: you know, a resort using Mountain Collective than by getting, like, the Icon Pass, because even if you buy a one-day lift ticket to Banff and Lake Louise, despite having the.

01:28:35.000 --> 01:28:44.000

Sam Weintraub: like, despite having fewer free days or complimentary days on the IconPass, you still are… are fewer…

01:28:44.000 --> 01:28:50.000

Sam Weintraub: complimentary days than the Icon Pass, you’re still saving money, and you’re… you’re… you’re…

01:28:50.000 --> 01:28:55.000

Sam Weintraub: saving hundreds on Lyft tickets with the additional that you’re spending. And so…

01:28:55.000 --> 01:29:10.000

Sam Weintraub: there’s that, there’s also, um, Alta and Snowbird in Utah. So those two days are separate, or those two mountains are separate on Mountain Collective as well, whereas if you get the full Icon Pass, they are combined, and if you get the Icon Base Pass.

01:29:10.000 --> 01:29:27.000

Sam Weintraub: Alta access isn’t even included at all. Um, so you can basically stay in the Cottonwoods, you can do 2 days at Alta, you can do 2 days at Snowbird, and if you want to do any more, you can get 50% off the lift ticket. And then you’ll also have Snowbase nearby, if you’re staying in Salt Lake City, and you want to visit.

01:29:12.000 --> 01:29:14.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

01:29:27.000 --> 01:29:43.000

Sam Weintraub: like, more than just Alto and Snowbird. So, basically, Mountain Collective is… if you want to just, like, go to some of these mountains, and you’re willing to put in the… the math to… to get your money’s worth.

01:29:43.000 --> 01:29:52.000

Sam Weintraub: Mountain Collective, even if you end up buying some lift tickets, can be a much better deal than the icon equivalent for access to these places.

01:29:52.000 --> 01:30:07.000

Stuart Winchester: Alright, Sam, I know you gotta run. Let’s… leave us with this. I want your opinion on the Snow Pass, because we’re both in New York Metro, and I think if you’re in New York Metro, the Snow Pass is great. And back to, you know, buying two passes. If you buy a Snow Pass or a Snow Triple Play, you can.

01:30:07.000 --> 01:30:16.000

Stuart Winchester: a mountain collective. I think that’s the math. So they have a little partnership, and so you can combine these passes, and if you look at… here’s triple play and, uh…

01:30:09.000 --> 01:30:11.000

Sam Weintraub: Mm-hmm.

01:30:16.000 --> 01:30:26.000

Stuart Winchester: and snow passes, two days each. And in New York Metro, it’s great. It’s big snow, it’s Mountain Creek, then you go up Bel Air, Gore, Whiteface. What’s your take on.

01:30:26.000 --> 01:30:43.000

Sam Weintraub: Yeah, so I mean, I think it’s generally good. The one thing I was going to say about Mountain Collective that I actually know anecdotally, obviously I don’t have raw numbers behind anecdotes here, but anecdotally, I know people who have decided not to get the Mountain Collective Pass.

01:30:43.000 --> 01:30:44.000

Sam Weintraub: Because it’s just…

01:30:44.000 --> 01:31:00.000

Sam Weintraub: It’s really not a good fit for people who live in like the New York City area. It’s it lacks a lot of those Vermont partners that you get with the icon pass. And so, you know, I think the snow pass.

01:30:48.000 --> 01:30:50.000

Stuart Winchester: Yeah, thank you.

01:31:00.000 --> 01:31:12.000

Sam Weintraub: to a certain extent, it actually serves a lot of those resorts that the Mountain Collective Pass is very, very weak in. So, to a certain extent, I think this is a good thing. Um…

01:31:12.000 --> 01:31:15.000

Sam Weintraub: The thing…

01:31:15.000 --> 01:31:21.000

Sam Weintraub: that is good about the Snow Pass is the affordable price. Um, it is very, very affordable compared to, like.

01:31:21.000 --> 01:31:36.000

Sam Weintraub: the Icon… obviously, we’ve already talked about the Icon Session Pass, like, I’m pretty sure some versions of the Icon Session Pass are more expensive than this entire Snow Pass. Um, but, like, the thing about the Snow Pass that I’ll be looking out for is…

01:31:30.000 --> 01:31:31.000

Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Yeah.

01:31:36.000 --> 01:31:54.000

Sam Weintraub: do they continue to try to, like, take some of Indy’s partners? Um, I don’t see them… right now, I don’t see any Icon-affiliated… full Icon-affiliated partners on here. I see some Icon, um, bonus mountains. I think Jiminy Peak and Cranmore are on there.

01:31:50.000 --> 01:31:52.000

Stuart Winchester: Bonus. Mm-hmm.

01:31:53.000 --> 01:31:54.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

01:31:54.000 --> 01:31:58.000

Sam Weintraub: Um, but are they… are they on the snow pass, or just triple play?

01:31:57.000 --> 01:32:05.000

Stuart Winchester: Just triple play. Yep. But Butternut is on, uh, is a bonus mountain and on Snowpass. Where’s Butternut?

01:31:58.000 --> 01:32:00.000

Sam Weintraub: Yeah.

01:32:03.000 --> 01:32:18.000

Sam Weintraub: Okay, yeah. So I think what’s gonna be interesting is… and I’ll just leave you with this…

What

Main stage today belongs to Kovach, who agreed to come on the podcast like 90 years ago and waited patiently for his turn. But just as I wrapped this pod, breaking news slammed my inbox: Alterra has selected their next CEO after dismissing Jared Smith in March. From the press release:

Alterra Mountain Company … today announced that experienced hospitality and operations leader Kelly Vohs has been appointed Chief Executive Officer, effective October 19, 2026.

Vohs brings nearly 30 years of experience leading customer-facing, operationally complex businesses across hospitality, real estate, and technology. Previously, Vohs spent more than a decade leading companies within Blackstone’s portfolio, including recently as CEO of LivCor. Most recently, he served as Chief Executive Officer of SafetyCulture, a global frontline operations platform used by more than 85,000 organizations and supporting more than 2.5 million frontline workers.

Earlier in his career, Vohs led operations for BR Guest Hospitality, a New York restaurant group with more than 20 restaurants, and held leadership roles at several iconic hotels, including as General Manager of the Boca Raton Resort & Club and the Waldorf Astoria Chicago, and as opening General Manager of the Conrad Chicago. He also served eight years as a Green Beret with the U.S. Army’s 10th Special Forces Group at Fort Carson, Colorado Springs, completing four combat deployments.

First - I am not sure whether Vohs is any relation to the Wisconsin Vohs, who have done such an excellent job building Cascade Mountain. I’m not sure if he skis or really knows anything about skiing other than that it requires snow and idiots to strap six-foot-long planks to their feet so they can slide down it. But I won’t dismiss him as a viable next leader for Alterra simply because his resume is not some jumble of Whistler-Intrawest-ASC-Sunday-River-Big-Bear. Plenty of individuals without ski industry backgrounds have successfully run U.S. ski areas - Win Smith at Sugarbush is one of the best examples. But I’m not sure if anyone with zero ski industry background has ever run such a large ski company.

I give a bit more perspective in the pod, and I’ve already bothered Alterra for an interview. Stand by.

Who

Evan Kovach, General Manager of Mountain Creek, New Jersey

Date Recorded

October 5, 2026

About Mountain Creek

Owned by: Snow Partners

Year founded: 1965

Pass affiliations:

* Snow Pass – 2 days, no blackouts

* Snow Triple Play – up to 2 days, no blackouts

Pay attention, because these passes have overlapping, but different, rosters:

Base elevation: 448 feet (bottom of South Peak and Bear Peak quads)

* Vernon Peak: 452 feet

* Granite Peak: 605 feet

* South/Bear Peaks: 448 feet

Summit elevation: 1,458 feet (top of Sojourn double)

* Vernon Peak: 1,403 feet

* Granite Peak: 1,453 feet

* South Peak: 1,444 feet

* Bear Peak: 1,126 feet

Vertical drop: 1,010 feet – top of Sojourn lift/Granite Peak to South/Bear base

* Vernon Peak: 951 feet

* Granite Peak: 853 feet

* South Peak: 996 feet

* Bear Peak: 678 feet

Skiable acres: 167

Average annual snowfall: 65 inches

Lift count: 9 (1 cabriolet, 2 high-speed quads, 2 fixed-grip quads, 1 triple, 1 double, 2 carpets)

Why I interviewed him

I mean:

I’m a bit obsessed with Mountain Creek, and it’s been a secondary subject on many past podcasts:

For reference

In 1998, Intrawest pulled off one of the most audacious single-season ski area transformations in American history, demolishing 15 double chairs and three surface lifts and replacing them with five modern machines. Check the before and after:

Pretty amazing. It’s too bad Intrawest sold the place off in 2010. It stagnated for nearly a decade before onetime parking-lot attendant Joe Hession bought it in 2019. It’s been all rocketships since.

I still, however, pine over this old early-Intrawest masterplan, showing additional trailpods and lifts between South and Granite peaks:

Transcripts

There are two transcripts. Both are generated by robots. Both are helpful and defective in their own unique ways. I do not proofread either of them.

Transcript 1: Click the “transcript” button at the top of this article. You can only see this transcript on a computer. Because I don’t know why exactly but everything is getting better and dumber all at once it seems. Anyway, this is the transcript that the robots create when I upload the podcast to the internet. The cool thing about it is that you can click on any block of text and the audio will teleport there instantly. The uncool thing about this transcript is that it does not indicate who is talking at any given moment.

Transcript 2: You can read this below. This is the transcript that Zoom creates as we record the podcast. The cool thing about this transcript is that it indicates who is talking at any given moment. The uncool thing about this transcript is that the timestamps do not match the audio. Also, you cannot click on this text to move to the associated point in the audio.

Zoom

The Zoom transcript only contains my conversation with Evan Kovach. Please use the other transcript to read/skim my take on Alterra’s new CEO.

Stuart Winchester: My guest today has been General Manager of Mountain Creek, New Jersey since 2020. Mountain Creek spans more than two miles along four peaks served by nine lifts.

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Stuart Winchester: Since 2019, Mountain Creek has been owned by Snow Partners, which also operates the nearby Big Snow American Dream indoor ski area, the beginner-focused train-based learning program, Snow Cloud Resort operating software, and the Snow Pass and Snow Triple Play. He has worked at or around the resort for nearly two decades. Evan Kovac is my guest.

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Stuart Winchester: Evan, welcome at last to the storm. I don’t know if I said your last name right, I’m sorry, but so good to finally track you down. How’s life in Jersey today?

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Evan Kovach: It’s great. Thanks, Stuart. And actually, you did pronounce my last name correctly, which is very rare. So thank you for that. And thanks for having me.

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Stuart Winchester: Look at that. So, I had the general manager of Mount Southington on the pod the other day, and I was calling it Mount Southington.

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Stuart Winchester: So I messed up the whole scary Mountain Creek, I think is an easy one. You know, Evan.

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Stuart Winchester: Folks are hard on Mountain Creek, uh, if they have skied at bigger ski areas, but I think the place is awesome. You know, it’s a thousand vertical feet with, with high speed lifts, an hour and 15 minutes from my house on a weekend morning with no traffic. So, uh, and, and I think.

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Stuart Winchester: You know, part of it’s, uh, and I’ll give you a chance to comment on this, but my perception is people think it’s kind of a wild place, uh, and sometimes dysfunctional, but I think under Snow Partners, they’ve really modernized, and at the core of that.

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Stuart Winchester: is snowmaking. So, what can you tell us about…

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Stuart Winchester: how the snowmaking system has evolved since Snow Partners took over, basically, your tenure from 2020 to now?

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Evan Kovach: Yeah, absolutely. And snowmaking is something I’ve been passionate about since I was about 5 years old. So when I first started skiing, I would download ski resorts trail maps to Microsoft Paint and color in trails that I think they should be snowmaking on.

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Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

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Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.

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Stuart Winchester: Right.

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Evan Kovach: Um, so it’s something I’ve always kind of played with as a kid and now I get to do it, um, as a career. So that’s, that’s a pretty cool thing for me. But obviously, uh, two years ago we invested $5 million in automation, um, with TechnoAlpin. So that was, uh, 40 TT9s and TT10s.

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Evan Kovach: Um, and that allowed us to get open our primary terrain on our primary peak, um, you know, much faster, and, um…

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Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

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Stuart Winchester: When you say primary, are you talking Vernon or South?

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Evan Kovach: I…

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Evan Kovach: Yes, Vernon Peak. So, upper horizon, lower horizon, the base area. Um, it allows us to open up our main base lodge to rentals and ski schools, so that’s really our core terrain. Um, a lot of our season pass holders, if they’re listening, they’re probably saying, what about south?

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Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.

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Evan Kovach: And one of the intended consequences of automation there was we could focus our 60,000 CFMs of air over to South and Bear Peaks. That gets our train park open, you know, the primary place our season pass holders call home open, ski racing, all of those things.

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Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

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Evan Kovach: Um, it’s funny when you look at the whole puzzle, we were always so heavily focused on using so much air, and when we added in this automated system, we started drawing water at a rate that even exceeded what our calculation said.

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Evan Kovach: Um, and then, you know, fast forward the past couple of years in the New Jersey, New York area, we’ve had somewhat of a drought, um, until this summer. Um, so, you know, this past winter, we realized we really need to work on water management, um, not so much the core aspects of snowmaking, like buying more snow guns, or.

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Evan Kovach: uh, more automation. It was entirely water management. So we’ve installed regeneration pumps, um, at the bottom of the mountain. Something somewhat unique about our resort is the snowmaking, uh, lakes are at the top. So, uh, so we installed a couple of pumps so we could capture runoff as it comes… Oh, there they are!

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Evan Kovach: um, about seven lakes up there, and we could pump from those back lakes forward to the lakes that we actually pumped down, um, the mountain into, so… But as I was saying, we could now draw from those streams that are coming off the mountain, pull it back up, um, so if we find ourselves in a drought again, we won’t find water as our restricting factor.

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Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

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Evan Kovach: Um, part of that is $4 million on dam, um, rehabilitation, which is probably the least sexy investment you can make as a ski area operator, but it’s part of the puzzle.

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Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm. Yeah. I, I know it’s, it’s sometimes hard to quantify these things beyond.

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Stuart Winchester: dollars spent. But I’m curious if…

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Stuart Winchester: You can give us any sense of.

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Stuart Winchester: the pace at which Mountain Creek has been able to open, or open all of its trails, or I know a big point of contention is always connecting Sojourn and connecting north and south via trail. So, do you have any, if not numbers, anecdotes of.

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Stuart Winchester: Of how much…

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Stuart Winchester: Better, you can manage the mountain with your snowmaking system now than 5-6 years ago.

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Evan Kovach: Sure, yeah, I mean, I think the past two winters have proven it, right? We’ve opened in very early in December versus mid to late December, or, you know, in some really terrible winters, we would open in January, which obviously makes the P&L look ugly, and it’s not great for our guests. But, um…

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Evan Kovach: you know, what I can say is, and it’s kind of to what I, uh, you know, ties into what I alluded to before, with.

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Evan Kovach: all of the automation that’s going on on Vernon Peak, we could send all of that air across the mountain. Um, whereas in the past, we’d be focusing on what we call our Phase 1 trails, um, and, you know, we’d get those open and be like, okay, let’s go to Phase 2. Now, on Night 1, we’re already focused on what we would have considered Phase 2, which includes getting down to Granite.

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Evan Kovach: And then getting over to Sojourn, which connects the peaks. As you said off the hop, Mountain Creek skis so much bigger than people realize when all four peaks are open. It spans two miles. There’s four unique peaks of skiing. And when I say unique, they do have different terrain.

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Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

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Evan Kovach: Um, and different styles of terrain, which I think, um, you know, a lot of folks who ski here all the time really appreciate.

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Stuart Winchester: Yeah, what can you tell us about the history? Because these were actually two separate ski areas up until the 1970s, and I think that probably plays a part in how they were designed. And in my personal preference, I almost always just park it south because the parking’s easier, and I like the mountain better. It’s just got the best fall lines, I think.

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Evan Kovach: Yep.

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Stuart Winchester: Uh, but, but talk about the differences between, you know, uh, Great Gorge and Vernon Valley.

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Evan Kovach: Sure, sure, I could tie that into snowmaking, too. So, um, you know, Great Gorge is, if you’re watching, um, what you see on the right part of the screen, that’s the former Great Gorge. It now encompasses present-day South Peak and Bear Peak, um, and then to the far left would be Vernon Valley, which is.

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Stuart Winchester: Sure.

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Evan Kovach: present day, um, we call it Vernon Peak, though everyone else calls it North. I think at some point, we’re just gonna have to start calling it North.

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Stuart Winchester: Yeah.

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Stuart Winchester: Right.

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Evan Kovach: Um, but a funny story, so, um, Big Al Lazer’s been running our snowmaking for over 50 years, and he worked at both resorts at times, but, um, there was a point in time where he was working for Vernon Valley, and there was somewhat of a rivalry between Vernon Valley and Great Gorge.

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Stuart Winchester: Yeah.

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Stuart Winchester: Okay.

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Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

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Evan Kovach: So he would, at night, uh, with his crew, go over to Great Gorge and steal some of their snow guns and throw them in the lakes up, up, uh…

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Stuart Winchester: What?

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Evan Kovach: Up right behind, uh, Vernon.

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Stuart Winchester: Throw them in the lakes.

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Evan Kovach: And with the droughts this past year, it was the first time he’s ever actually seen the guns at the bottom of the lake. They’re still there.

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Stuart Winchester: Oh my god.

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Evan Kovach: So that’s a that’s a little fun story about our snowmaking.

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Stuart Winchester: Like the big cannon guns, or the… or the sticks, or what… or the little, like, weird homemade ones?

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Evan Kovach: No. They were they were they were little ground mounts. They were little ground mounts that were actually handmade with, like, rebar, welded to them as as as bases. And, yeah, our water we made so much snow in December last year that you could actually see them at the bottom.

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Stuart Winchester: Okay, okay.

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Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

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Evan Kovach: of, uh, Stewart Lake, which is one of those two lakes on top of Vernon Peak, so… we were having a good laugh at that, because I was like, why, why, what is that in the water? And he’s like, oh, I got a story for you, and…

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Stuart Winchester: Oh my god.

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Evan Kovach: Quite a story.

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Stuart Winchester: That’s amazing, Evan. I think a lot of people have probably seen Class Action Park, which details, uh, the life and death of, uh, you know, whatever amusement park used to live at the base, and you’ve… this was all…

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Stuart Winchester: pre-snow partners, but that’s quite a story that we’ll save for another day. But they’re designed different, and they ski different. The connection is great. As long as we’re here.

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Stuart Winchester: On this…

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Stuart Winchester: map that you can see if you’re watching on StormSkiing.com or YouTube at Storm Skiing. There’s…

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Stuart Winchester: A couple cool things about Mountain Creek’s history, so…

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Stuart Winchester: I want to pull up.

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Stuart Winchester: A little map here.

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Stuart Winchester: Not that one.

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Stuart Winchester: All right, so Mountain Creek…

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Stuart Winchester: Where did I, where did I put that?

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Stuart Winchester: No, not that one. Alright, I’ll… I’ll track it down, but uh… so… so Mountain Creek has some abandoned trails, which I’ve talked about before with Hugh Reynolds, and it has…

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Stuart Winchester: Some potential trails that were laid out a long, long time ago.

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Stuart Winchester: And I want to…

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Stuart Winchester: bring up this map. So this was… this right here is really cool, Evan. I’m sure you’ve seen this. So this is… was IntraWest’s… I believe this was IntraWest’s initial master plan. So here’s Vernon or North.

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Evan Kovach: Oh, yeah.

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Stuart Winchester: Uh, and here’s South, and here’s Bear, and here’s Granite. And then, right here is an abandoned trail.

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Stuart Winchester: And right here is an abandoned trail. Well, let’s start with that, Evan, and Hugh Reynolds has told the story on the podcast before, but it was 2019, and so I have a lot of new listeners. So tell us why these two trails that were a part of Mountain Creek for quite a long time.

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Stuart Winchester: are no longer active trails.

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Evan Kovach: Sure, yeah, so, um, the first one you highlight that kind of goes around, um, used to be called Granite View. Um, I actually lived in the condo that’s just below that trail. You can see the development down there. So I would spend most afternoons and evenings hiking with my dog up that trail, because it’s still cut.

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Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

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Stuart Winchester: On the way.

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Stuart Winchester: Mmm.

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Evan Kovach: Uh, we still use it as a service road, but the part that most people miss is there’s about a 300-foot section that, as I’m hiking up it, is actually downhill. Um, so if you’re skiing down it, it’s actually uphill. Um, there’s really not much that I find fun about.

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Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

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Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

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Stuart Winchester: Mmm.

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Evan Kovach: I would find fun about skiing down that, and the amount of snow that it would take to fill in that uphill, um, just really doesn’t make it worth it to focus on. Um…

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Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

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Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

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Evan Kovach: So there’s my answer for Granite View, like, the uphill just doesn’t, doesn’t make it make sense.

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Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

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Evan Kovach: And then Pipeline, I think, is the other trail you highlighted there. Is that correct? Yeah.

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Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Yeah, that’s pipeline. It was actually labeled double black when it was on Mountain Creek’s trail maps, so…

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Stuart Winchester: Uh, but yeah.

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Evan Kovach: Yeah, and again, um, the pitch on pipeline, it was steep. Um, that pitch was fun, but ever since the condos were built, um, you know, there’s a hard, hard right after a really steep pitch. And, um, you know, for a lot of our clientele, that could be super deceptive compared to our other.

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Evan Kovach: Black Diamond Trail, so it’s just something we didn’t think was safe to keep open, and, you know, as long as… I think it’s safe to say as long as Joe and myself are here, it’s not something we would reopen.

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Stuart Winchester: Yeah, there was, uh… I think people were getting in over their heads, and there was actually a fatality.

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Stuart Winchester: on that trail that I believe preceded that closing. So that made that decision. So we go back to this.

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Stuart Winchester: this funny plan here, and… you know, I… skiers always want more, right? Mountain Creek, as you said, it’s 2 miles wide.

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Stuart Winchester: However, these are kind of intriguing. Uh So, so this trail, I don’t know if this was ever an active trail, but it’s, it’s sort of, you can see it on Google Earth still cut in and people poach it and they come down here down this old, I don’t know what that is if it was a cut for a lift line or what.

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Stuart Winchester: But there’s this little trail pod from connecting south to, you know, Sojourn, and then there’s another trail pod, and this actually, when you’re riding the lift, this terrain looks really cool.

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Evan Kovach: Yep.

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Stuart Winchester: and I know Mound Creek’s super rocky, so it’s not easy to make new trails, but just talk about these trail pods, if you ever think about them, if they’re just done.

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Evan Kovach: I personally think about all the terrain all the time. We have a lot of open space on the mountain, so, um, you know, I like to play, um, fantasy GM and say, you know, if…

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Stuart Winchester: Yeah.

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Evan Kovach: If resources were unrestricted, what would we do with all of this space? Um, a lot of it, um, again, going back to the way gravity works, it’s not as realistic as it looks when you draw it on a map, even, even a topo map. Um, I’m really into trail running and I spend a lot of time in those woods because.

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Stuart Winchester: Right.

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Stuart Winchester: Right.

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Stuart Winchester: Right.

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Evan Kovach: mountain bikers have made a lot of trails, um, and I could tell you they’re not entirely downhill, um, especially coming from south over to Sojourn.

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Stuart Winchester: Right.

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Evan Kovach: There’s spots in there where, you know, you have to come back uphill, unless you go really far down.

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Evan Kovach: At which point, um, you know, the condo development starts to get in the way of your method back to the bottom of south.

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Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.

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Evan Kovach: Um…

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Evan Kovach: You know, the woods, the woods are very nice there. Um, on a, on a snowy season, I, I would say that, you know, some people could have a lot of fun in there, although I don’t encourage or condone that.

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Evan Kovach: But, um, yeah, right now we’re really focused on what we currently have in terms of trails, the snowmaking on those trails, and investing in lift infrastructure to support those. I think that has to come first before we, we start looking at these additional pods.

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Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

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Evan Kovach: I mean, going way back to the Vernon Valley Great Gorge days, there was a lot more lifts at Mountain Creek, um, as, as I’m sure many of our, um, as many of the listeners know, and many of our pass holders know, but, um, you know, with mid-mountain lifts, when you’re talking about a thousand vertical.

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Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

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Evan Kovach: It starts to get a little silly to be spinning off these things when they really don’t have a distinct reason for circulation or flow to exist in the first place.

00:17:05.000 --> 00:17:20.000

Stuart Winchester: So this was one of the most amazing transformations, and I’ve talked about this in the pod with a bunch of people, like Frank DeBerry, who lived through it, and it’s so incredible to me. This is Vernon Valley Great Gorge, circa 1989. You can see there’s so many chairlifts just everywhere.

00:17:21.000 --> 00:17:34.000

Stuart Winchester: And then IntraWest comes along and they take out 15 Borvig doubles and three surface lifts in one summer. One summer! And they build South Peak high speed quad, Bear high speed quad, Granite fixed.

00:17:34.000 --> 00:17:51.000

Stuart Winchester: Cabriolet and Sugar fixed quads. So it was an amazing transformation. But here we are. We’re in 2026. That was 28 years ago. All these lists are the same age. Well, Sojourn was built in 2012 or something, and Vernon Triple’s much older.

00:17:51.000 --> 00:17:59.000

Stuart Winchester: But talk about the current lift fleet, and, you know, Joe Heschen on the podcast once talked about maybe bringing back this lift.

00:17:59.000 --> 00:18:10.000

Stuart Winchester: that goes from, uh, Vernon back up to Great Gorge, or I’m sorry, uh, Granite, but what’s the current thinking? And he also talked about maybe a six-pack.

00:18:10.000 --> 00:18:15.000

Stuart Winchester: over here to replace, or an 8-pack to replace the, uh… the triple, but…

00:18:15.000 --> 00:18:21.000

Stuart Winchester: all kinds of things, and I know it’s always changing, so what’s on your mind right now as far as Mountain Creek lift upgr.

00:18:20.000 --> 00:18:36.000

Evan Kovach: Yeah, that this image haunts me. So, uh, thanks for sharing that five, five lifts all at the same time. Cause you know, right? Um, yeah, obviously Partek, Partek’s in the next town over. Um, we had all those Borvig lifts and we still have a couple, couple part, uh, Partek’s and one Borvig.

00:18:25.000 --> 00:18:26.000

Stuart Winchester: Right.

00:18:26.000 --> 00:18:28.000

Stuart Winchester: Yes.

00:18:36.000 --> 00:18:37.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

00:18:36.000 --> 00:18:41.000

Evan Kovach: Um, still spinning here, so it’s nice to have Hoggin right next door. But, uh…

00:18:39.000 --> 00:18:40.000

Stuart Winchester: Right.

00:18:41.000 --> 00:18:57.000

Evan Kovach: Yeah, IntraWest came in, we got those 5 new lifts, um, and that’s really part of our focus right now, is, um, you know, we’ve talked about putting another workhorse lift next to the Cabriolet. We love the Cabriolet for certain aspects. We know skiers hate it for taking off their skis every run.

00:18:54.000 --> 00:18:55.000

Stuart Winchester: Yeah.

00:18:57.000 --> 00:19:00.000

Evan Kovach: Um, trust me, that’s why I like to ski south as well.

00:18:59.000 --> 00:19:01.000

Stuart Winchester: So.

00:19:00.000 --> 00:19:02.000

Evan Kovach: But, um…

00:19:02.000 --> 00:19:17.000

Evan Kovach: You know, what we want to do first is invest in the infrastructure we have. So something we’re looking into right now is modernizing the Cabriolet to modern controls, putting in a new motor, really throwing several million dollars into that lift to keep it going for the next 20 years.

00:19:17.000 --> 00:19:29.000

Evan Kovach: Um, and then the same, you know, can be said for South and Bear. Those lifts are gonna need some love soon. Obviously, the Cabriolet spins 10 months out of the year, so it has a lot more hours on it, and that’s the first priority. Um…

00:19:28.000 --> 00:19:29.000

Stuart Winchester: Right.

00:19:29.000 --> 00:19:46.000

Evan Kovach: Personally, again, if we go back to playing Fantasy GM, I’ve always wanted a fixed grip lift coming out of the South and Bear base area. Right now we have two detachables. It’s a beautiful thing. We could send almost 5,000 skiers up per hour with those two lifts, but I always get nervous in the event of…

00:19:42.000 --> 00:19:44.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

00:19:46.000 --> 00:20:03.000

Evan Kovach: of ice. I’d love to have a fixed grip lift there. Um, you know, I’ve heard Mike Solomono talk on your show about their strategy around having, you know, fixed grips as redundancy for the detachables, and, you know, hasn’t really been an issue to date. We’ve had some delays, you know, on those icy mornings, but.

00:19:48.000 --> 00:19:50.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

00:19:57.000 --> 00:19:58.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

00:20:03.000 --> 00:20:19.000

Evan Kovach: that’s more in fantasy land. But for now I think the focus remains. You know, we invest millions of dollars into our lifts. It’s something every resort has to do again. It’s not the sexiest money we spend to keep existing lifts, you know, built to modern standards. But it’s super important.

00:20:18.000 --> 00:20:19.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

00:20:19.000 --> 00:20:27.000

Evan Kovach: Um, and Interest knew what they were doing when they made this change, right? They, they really looked at skier circulation, they looked at how the flow would work.

00:20:27.000 --> 00:20:38.000

Evan Kovach: And to me, this puzzle works. Um, we’ve learned some things about lift opening times, like the Vernon Triple. We open a little bit earlier now to get… to get more skiers up on top of Vernon Peak.

00:20:38.000 --> 00:20:56.000

Evan Kovach: The, uh, the lift you… you hinted at that would follow, kind of, Osprey from Granite Peak to Vernon, that’s something we’re still looking into as well. Um, that would really transform our beginner experience. Um, with the Cabriolet, we could send beginners up on foot. They could, uh… they could ski that really gentle terrain at the top of the mountain, and…

00:20:43.000 --> 00:20:45.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

00:20:54.000 --> 00:20:56.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

00:20:56.000 --> 00:21:12.000

Evan Kovach: we find that to be unique. Um, you know, a lot of times beginner skiers say, oh, I’m gonna go skiing, and they wind up, you know, at the bottom of the hill all day, never see a ski lift, so if we could give them that experience, we think that would be, you know, transformative, so… so that one’s certainly still on the list, but…

00:21:11.000 --> 00:21:26.000

Stuart Winchester: Yeah, I just want to jump in one second. So this beginner area is really cool. It doesn’t look like anything on the trail map, but it’s where you have the terrain-based learning setup, and you have the carpets. I don’t know if you’ve been up to Bel Air, but they did an awesome job at the top of their gondola.

00:21:13.000 --> 00:21:15.000

Evan Kovach: Sure.

00:21:26.000 --> 00:21:37.000

Stuart Winchester: putting in a covered carpet, and of course, they have an unlimited budget, so they can do whatever they want. But, uh, have you thought about a carpet up here somewhere? That would be really neat, because…

00:21:37.000 --> 00:21:48.000

Stuart Winchester: I know it’s New Jersey, but it’s beautiful. It really is, and people have this idea of Jersey, but I’m telling you, I love it up there. So, is that something that you’ve considered, in addition to a chairlift?

00:21:48.000 --> 00:22:05.000

Evan Kovach: You know, I personally haven’t thought about a carpet, but it’s not a bad idea. Part of the goal would be to keep that beginner traffic away from upper horizon, just because that’s the primary way people take down off the cab. You know, the cab fits 8 people, the triple fits 3, obviously, so…

00:22:05.000 --> 00:22:21.000

Evan Kovach: Um, you know, that trail, we don’t want to crowd anymore by, A, taking up space with a surface lift, and B, adding more skier traffic that’s just circulating that trail. Um, I think the reason why we talk aerial lift is because it used to exist, right? The lift line you could still see on Google Maps, so…

00:22:09.000 --> 00:22:10.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

00:22:19.000 --> 00:22:20.000

Stuart Winchester: Yeah.

00:22:21.000 --> 00:22:22.000

Stuart Winchester: Yeah.

00:22:21.000 --> 00:22:28.000

Evan Kovach: Um, we think that would be easier, but hey, a carpet, certainly something we consider. Certainly, uh, a little bit less money, right?

00:22:28.000 --> 00:22:39.000

Stuart Winchester: Yeah, exactly. And then, uh, what about Sugar Quad? Joe’s hinted at maybe a reorientation of that lift, or… or, uh, you know, other… some moving it, maybe?

00:22:40.000 --> 00:22:55.000

Evan Kovach: Yeah, we’ve looked at… we’ve looked at a few different alignments, and whatever we do there would likely come, um, at the same time as we, um, put additional lift, you know, alongside or somewhere in the vicinity of the Cabriolet. Um, those two decisions kind of go together.

00:22:52.000 --> 00:22:53.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

00:22:55.000 --> 00:23:11.000

Evan Kovach: I don’t think we would do one without the other, or at least we would do one knowing where the other would happen in the future. But yeah, the alignment that you’re referring to would be the kind of the base terminal of the Sugar Quad would move over to Looker’s right, exactly.

00:23:01.000 --> 00:23:03.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

00:23:11.000 --> 00:23:13.000

Stuart Winchester: Okay. Okay.

00:23:11.000 --> 00:23:26.000

Evan Kovach: Yep. And then that would open up more, um, beginner terrain in that area. You see kind of the tree line to the right of, uh, the sugar slope. Um, that could be opened up. Um, you could create some really cool, um, beginner terrain, maybe some like family cross kind of stuff.

00:23:26.000 --> 00:23:32.000

Evan Kovach: um, some bank turns, um, pulling our TVL up onto the, uh, the sugar slope a bit.

00:23:32.000 --> 00:23:49.000

Stuart Winchester: Yeah, this sugar slope is pretty steep, I think, for a green. I still remember my daughter coming down when she was little. I mean, she’s in college now, but running into the safety fence right here because she just couldn’t stop. And that’s on me for taking her on something she wasn’t ready for.

00:23:49.000 --> 00:24:05.000

Stuart Winchester: Uh, it’s, I can see why you’d want to put something at the top. Uh, okay. And what about like that, uh, that eight pack or six pack? Would that go, you know, Joe had hinted replacing the Vernon triple with that and, and has also talked about maybe putting it over here. Any current thinking around that?

00:24:06.000 --> 00:24:09.000

Evan Kovach: Yeah, I mean, we’ve looked at a lot of alignments, um…

00:24:09.000 --> 00:24:23.000

Evan Kovach: you know, and what keeps kind of ringing true when we look at that is we would likely put it near the Cabriolet’s current line. Um… the triple line, although it opens up, you know, the triple-bound ski trail and spreads things out a bit, um…

00:24:16.000 --> 00:24:17.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

00:24:23.000 --> 00:24:39.000

Evan Kovach: the existing line is built for a triple, and the 6 pack would require, especially detached, will require a lot more width. And you’re looking at going, you know, kind of through the water park, through the condo development. The trail map doesn’t show it perfectly here the way it’s drawn. But.

00:24:37.000 --> 00:24:39.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

00:24:39.000 --> 00:24:57.000

Evan Kovach: you know, the challenges of following that triple lift line are much greater than those putting it next to where the cabriolet line currently exists. Um, but nothing’s set in stone. We, we, uh, we don’t like to, uh, you know, make decisions until we have to, so we have a few options there, and once the time comes, I’m sure we’ll…

00:24:49.000 --> 00:24:50.000

Stuart Winchester: Yeah.

00:24:57.000 --> 00:25:01.000

Evan Kovach: We’ll get back into batting all those around and making the right choice.

00:25:01.000 --> 00:25:07.000

Stuart Winchester: Evan, I have a couple of weird questions that came up while I was researching this, and it’s funny because…

00:25:04.000 --> 00:25:05.000

Evan Kovach: Please.

00:25:07.000 --> 00:25:12.000

Stuart Winchester: I’ve skied Mound Creek more than probably anywhere, because it’s so easy for me to get there, and…

00:25:12.000 --> 00:25:23.000

Stuart Winchester: there’s train tracks, I believe, back here, somewhere. And I read that in the 70s, there used to be trains, I think, from New York City. Is that…

00:25:23.000 --> 00:25:29.000

Stuart Winchester: is there still passenger rail that runs by? Would that be possible? Because that would be amazing, because it’s…

00:25:29.000 --> 00:25:42.000

Stuart Winchester: you know, Mound Creek is close to the city, but if you don’t have a car, it’s really hard to figure out, so I don’t believe there’s a lot of buses to go there like they do to Hunter. Is there any… anything in that train line that’s possible?

00:25:42.000 --> 00:25:56.000

Evan Kovach: Uh, not currently for passenger rail. Um, it’s something that, you know, local politicians have been looking at, um, Glantz State. Um, you know, the population in our corner of the state is a lot less than the rest of the state, so, um…

00:25:48.000 --> 00:25:49.000

Stuart Winchester: Right.

00:25:56.000 --> 00:26:14.000

Evan Kovach: you know, that doesn’t help that argument. But, you know, you mentioned not as much bus traffic as perhaps some other places, and that’s kind of deliberate. You had mentioned earlier, you know, some people have this perception of Mount Creek being wild on weekends. That’s something we’ve been, you know, working pretty intently to change.

00:25:58.000 --> 00:26:00.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

00:26:08.000 --> 00:26:09.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

00:26:09.000 --> 00:26:10.000

Stuart Winchester: Yeah, thank you.

00:26:14.000 --> 00:26:29.000

Evan Kovach: And you won’t find, you know, 30 buses in our parking lot on a Saturday anymore. That used to be the case. And we’re really working to control that capacity. So, you know, as much as we want to be accessible to the, you know, the folks who don’t currently have a vehicle who might live in the city.

00:26:29.000 --> 00:26:44.000

Evan Kovach: you know, there’s part of that equation where we’re deliberately trying not to keep people out of Mountain Creek, but, you know, to make sure we manage the crowds so that, you know, when you come here on a Saturday, you don’t leave with that experience. That’s not our intention, and, you know.

00:26:34.000 --> 00:26:35.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

00:26:44.000 --> 00:26:55.000

Evan Kovach: Looking years back, it used to be kind of the place where, you know, operations would cram the place with as many people as possible and see how many could fit, and that’s definitely not our strategy any longer.

00:26:51.000 --> 00:26:52.000

Stuart Winchester: Yeah.

00:26:54.000 --> 00:27:10.000

Stuart Winchester: Right. Uh, Joe, last time I talked to him also hinted at maybe some changes with this stuff down here, I believe he was talking about. I’m just curious about this gigantic parking lot. I actually, when I go to Vernon, I park here because there’s no one over there and I don’t have to walk up this hill. So.

00:27:07.000 --> 00:27:09.000

Evan Kovach: Yep, yep.

00:27:10.000 --> 00:27:25.000

Stuart Winchester: But that’s rare. I usually go to South and come over and ski over. But anything you can tell us about this sort of area and, you know, people, gosh, they hate this walk up here and then over the bridge over 94. I’m not sure what your shuttle situation is right now. Cause again, I don’t go down there.

00:27:26.000 --> 00:27:41.000

Evan Kovach: Yeah, it’s a great question, and we have a team that’s currently looking, led by Frank DeBerry, um, obviously Joe’s part of that as well, but looking at what the future could hold for the base area. Um, IntraWest had grant plans, um, not only on the mountain, like you shared earlier, but also for the base area.

00:27:41.000 --> 00:28:01.000

Evan Kovach: And right now, the parking doesn’t really make sense. If you look at, especially just looking at this map, that large lot that’s at the bottom right, the Sandhill lot that you like to park in, it would really make sense if we brought that parking further uphill and closer to the base area, where you see, like, woods in that.

00:27:51.000 --> 00:27:53.000

Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

00:28:01.000 --> 00:28:16.000

Evan Kovach: that concrete pad there, so that you know there’s some. There’s some grade in there that’s challenging. But as we look to develop we’re thinking that parking should come closer to the resort for our day guests, and development should come kind of a little bit further away off the.

00:28:16.000 --> 00:28:25.000

Evan Kovach: Sandhill Road there, um, that corner of Sandhill and 94, where the parking lot currently exists. Um, you know, maybe a lift to bring people up to the base area, who knows?

00:28:24.000 --> 00:28:30.000

Stuart Winchester: Yeah, that’d be really neat. And so you own all this here?

00:28:29.000 --> 00:28:34.000

Evan Kovach: Oh, yeah. Yep. Yep. Yep. That’s all one property.

00:28:30.000 --> 00:28:32.000

Stuart Winchester: Or lease it? Okay.

00:28:32.000 --> 00:28:33.000

Stuart Winchester: Yeah, and then…

00:28:33.000 --> 00:28:37.000

Stuart Winchester: Okay, any plans for this little parcel here, these little buildings?

00:28:37.000 --> 00:28:42.000

Evan Kovach: Yeah, I mean, that’s the old cobblestone village. It’s getting dated.

00:28:40.000 --> 00:28:41.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

00:28:42.000 --> 00:28:51.000

Evan Kovach: we have a few different plans, and that would, again, be predicated based on what we do down below, but, um, I think the best use of that space is parking.

00:28:47.000 --> 00:28:48.000

Stuart Winchester: Yeah.

00:28:51.000 --> 00:28:52.000

Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Yeah.

00:28:51.000 --> 00:29:01.000

Evan Kovach: Um, keep the parking closest to the resort. Um, because that applies not only for ski, but also for water park, also for bike park. Um, our core business is people, you know.

00:28:57.000 --> 00:28:59.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

00:29:02.000 --> 00:29:11.000

Evan Kovach: using gravity on the mountain to to have fun. So we we that parking closest to the activity is is one of our weaknesses, and something that we can improve with these plans.

00:29:05.000 --> 00:29:06.000

Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Okay.

00:29:11.000 --> 00:29:14.000

Stuart Winchester: You know, I wrote an article a while back called.

00:29:14.000 --> 00:29:19.000

Stuart Winchester: how to ski with your kids and not hate life, and a Mountain Creek hack.

00:29:19.000 --> 00:29:24.000

Stuart Winchester: is not really a hack, but just something that I think a lot of people don’t know about, just skier drop-off.

00:29:23.000 --> 00:29:25.000

Evan Kovach: Exactly.

00:29:24.000 --> 00:29:37.000

Stuart Winchester: And that is so clutch here, because you come, you drop everything, your gear, your people, and just leave them, and then come park, and just walk over the hill with nothing. Or park it south, if you…

00:29:37.000 --> 00:29:50.000

Stuart Winchester: get there in time, and can do that. You just gotta keep going a couple miles past to this parking lot here that’s across from South. Uh, can you give us any more Mountain Creek hacks, Evan, as a lifelong local?

00:29:50.000 --> 00:29:55.000

Evan Kovach: I mean, I think you just shared the best hack, which is parking at South.

00:29:54.000 --> 00:29:56.000

Stuart Winchester: Yeah.

00:29:55.000 --> 00:30:06.000

Evan Kovach: generally, even on a peak Saturday or Sunday, there’s still parking there. Um, you know, the catch there is you can’t be a beginner skier and park there, right? There’s no beginner train coming out of that base area.

00:30:03.000 --> 00:30:04.000

Stuart Winchester: Yeah.

00:30:05.000 --> 00:30:08.000

Stuart Winchester: And there’s drop off here too, even though the…

00:30:07.000 --> 00:30:22.000

Evan Kovach: There is drop off there. I don’t even think you need it. I think you just park and walk across. It’s a flat walk. Um, it’s an easy walk and then you’re on, you know, you’re on a high speed lift in a minute. So that’s really the hack. Um, I do like what you shared over at Vernon Peak, the drop off.

00:30:08.000 --> 00:30:10.000

Stuart Winchester: The parking lot’s across. Yeah.

00:30:12.000 --> 00:30:13.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

00:30:17.000 --> 00:30:18.000

Stuart Winchester: Yeah.

00:30:22.000 --> 00:30:24.000

Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

00:30:22.000 --> 00:30:38.000

Evan Kovach: is clutch. You typically see the, you know, the mom being dropped off with the kids, and then the dad’s gonna be the one to go across and take the walk. And, you know, we’ve really focused on how that drop-off works, too. It’s a place you’ll find Joe and myself there on a Saturday.

00:30:37.000 --> 00:30:39.000

Stuart Winchester: Yeah, thank you.

00:30:38.000 --> 00:30:54.000

Evan Kovach: directing traffic, where we want to be really high touch, and, you know, help people unload their cars, and make it a fast process, but make it a fast process, right? We don’t want people lingering there for 20 minutes, because that doesn’t give the next person an opportunity to do the same, as in drop off their stuff.

00:30:54.000 --> 00:31:07.000

Evan Kovach: and park. So, that’s an area… it’s just funny you bring that up, because it’s an area that Joe and I will often be there on a Saturday, directing traffic, speeding things up, um, working on the process there, because it’s the ultimate process exercise.

00:31:06.000 --> 00:31:12.000

Stuart Winchester: Yeah, I find that, uh, a lot of times, the perceptions folks have of.

00:31:12.000 --> 00:31:27.000

Stuart Winchester: Really busy places like Mountain Creek is just a lack of knowing what to do and sort of doing the wrong thing, like showing up at 11 o’clock on a peak Saturday and trying to park in the first lot you find and being put, you know, back in the woods and, and having to come up here and get rentals.

00:31:27.000 --> 00:31:42.000

Stuart Winchester: But, but process is, is really important to, uh, and, and for, for folks who don’t know who Joe is, Joe Heschen, the, the CEO and founder of Snow Partners, which owns the ski area for the listeners. So he, when he came on the pod, I think last year, Joe shared some pictures with me of.

00:31:43.000 --> 00:31:50.000

Stuart Winchester: the lines at Mountain Creek the year before they bought it to buy tickets, and the same place and time.

00:31:50.000 --> 00:32:03.000

Stuart Winchester: on the same date, or, you know, same equivalent Saturday, or whatever, the following year, and there was no lines. So, so talk about, you know, you just talked about the process with the, uh, with the drop-off, but just talk about the process with.

00:32:03.000 --> 00:32:08.000

Stuart Winchester: The the snow is for the snow cloud.

00:32:08.000 --> 00:32:12.000

Stuart Winchester: operating system, and just how that’s…

00:32:12.000 --> 00:32:18.000

Stuart Winchester: Linked to passes, tickets, and everything else at the resort, and how that smooths people’s journey.

00:32:18.000 --> 00:32:33.000

Evan Kovach: Yeah, so SnowCloud was born out of, you know, basically the Snow Operating Team, looking at other resorts and spending time at other resorts trying to solve problems, really with the beginner experience and the arrival process and the guest experience overall.

00:32:33.000 --> 00:32:54.000

Evan Kovach: And what it kept coming back to was, you know, the problem could be solved, but the technology had to change. So now enter into the picture, SnowCloud. You know, prior to COVID, we got rid of our ticket booths that used to be in front of Redtail Lodge, which was, you know, bold at the time, but we had eight fixed windows that were restricting the amount of tickets we could issue.

00:32:39.000 --> 00:32:40.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

00:32:54.000 --> 00:32:55.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

00:32:54.000 --> 00:33:09.000

Evan Kovach: Um, whether somebody bought online or was buying on site. Um, and that was really the start of, of really how the base area of Mountain Creek changed from a process perspective. Um, we also instituted, uh, rental time slot bookings at that time.

00:33:04.000 --> 00:33:06.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

00:33:09.000 --> 00:33:34.000

Evan Kovach: which now is becoming more commonplace post-COVID, but we had that prior to COVID just as a means to, you mentioned, you know, the family that plans to arrive at 11 a.m, that’s every family unless they have a time slot, right? So for those 2,000 plus folks who rent on a Saturday with us, now they’re organized into times, which smooths everything, right? It smooths the parking lot, it smooths the arrival experience in front of the lodge.

00:33:34.000 --> 00:33:51.000

Evan Kovach: It smooths, um, the cafeteria, right? Um, and it also smooths out the lifts. Now, one thing we found, and I mentioned this earlier, was with SnowCloud, we could issue tickets way faster, and not everyone’s renting, right? So, the line at the Cabriolet started to back up.

00:33:51.000 --> 00:34:09.000

Evan Kovach: at 9.15am, whereas in the past, it would take until 10.15, maybe 10.30, maybe 11. Um, and we’re like, what’s going on here? So, you know, we step back, and we start watching, and we’re like, oh, everyone’s getting their tickets so fast that they’re in the lift line now faster, they’re not in a line waiting for tickets, so…

00:33:55.000 --> 00:33:56.000

Stuart Winchester: Hmm. Okay.

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Stuart Winchester: Yep.

00:34:07.000 --> 00:34:09.000

Stuart Winchester: Right.

00:34:09.000 --> 00:34:15.000

Evan Kovach: that’s where we changed the opening of the Vernon Triple Lift to be significantly earlier. Um…

00:34:15.000 --> 00:34:30.000

Evan Kovach: it’s just funny how when you change one part of the ski area arrival process, there’s such a cascading effect to the rest of the mountain. We noticed Granite started getting more skiers earlier, so we have Patrol open that up as soon as they can now.

00:34:22.000 --> 00:34:23.000

Stuart Winchester: Yeah, thank you.

00:34:26.000 --> 00:34:27.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

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Evan Kovach: it’s really fun to kind of play with this puzzle and continue to tweak it, right? It’s going to continually change as we start to change things.

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Stuart Winchester: So, so another, another hack, Evan, and it’s related to all these, all these processes we’re talking about, is…

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Stuart Winchester: Mountain Creek Season Pass is amazingly cheap. Right now, it’s $369.99 unlimited. It started early bird at $329.99. And the really cool thing about it is that you can get access to South and Cabriolet Lifts at 8am on weekends, which is an hour before it opens to the public.

00:35:02.000 --> 00:35:17.000

Stuart Winchester: That is awesome, because this is, look, this is 1,000 vertical on South Peak, and I’m telling the listeners here, and it’s a high-speed lift, so it’s like a, what, a 5-6 minute ride, and you can get 10,000 vert in a couple of hours, and, you know.

00:35:17.000 --> 00:35:33.000

Stuart Winchester: The cool kids don’t show up till 10 30. So I would get there at eight and it might, I’ve been a little absentee on mountain creeks. I started the storm because I’m skiing all over, but I’d get there at eight and just bam, bam, bam, bam. And you got fun little jumps all over here. And, and you do a really good job of.

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Evan Kovach: Sure.

00:35:34.000 --> 00:35:49.000

Stuart Winchester: Making like approachable features for, you know, like a middle aged dad. I’m not going to like go off the big, the big ones that are over here on buddy’s way, but, but I’ll go on like the little ones you put on canyon and giant steps. Those are super fun. I get a little air and feel like I’m cool for five seconds until a snowboarder won’t r.

00:35:39.000 --> 00:35:40.000

Evan Kovach: Sure.

00:35:49.000 --> 00:36:04.000

Stuart Winchester: On the next ride. But talk about that season pass and the kind of benefits of it. And also the Mountain Creek Triple Play is awesome. And that was the seed for the Snow Triple Play. So just talk about those products.

00:35:49.000 --> 00:35:51.000

Evan Kovach: Yep, yep.

00:36:04.000 --> 00:36:10.000

Stuart Winchester: And why that makes sense for you? Because it’s one of the best season pass deals in the country.

00:36:10.000 --> 00:36:25.000

Evan Kovach: Yeah, first I have to comment on, uh, on the south arrival. That is what most of our season pass holders do, right? They get there at 8 AM, they’re out. Um, they’re either out by 10 AM, or they’re on the kink deck having a couple of beers at 10 AM, don’t judge them. Um, that’s just what they do, but.

00:36:16.000 --> 00:36:17.000

Stuart Winchester: Yeah.

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Evan Kovach: Um, and Fun Run, you mentioned, like, the, the jumps, we call it Fun Run, that’s Canyon down the giant steps, down to Bakersfield, down to Cloud 9. Um, the locals started calling it, so we call it that now, it’s our first open. But we have this unwritten rule that the GM has to be able to hit every feature on that run.

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Stuart Winchester: Okay. Right. Okay.

00:36:35.000 --> 00:36:36.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

00:36:42.000 --> 00:36:43.000

Stuart Winchester: Oh no, okay.

00:36:42.000 --> 00:36:57.000

Evan Kovach: Um, I… I am not a great park skier, so, uh, we do a lot of work with Effective Edge, Mike Pitera, and those guys on our park strategy, and… and that will be one we always have, that Fun Run has to be accessible to all. Um, and trust me, if I could hit everything on there.

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Stuart Winchester: Okay.

00:36:57.000 --> 00:37:13.000

Evan Kovach: virtually anyone could hit anything on there. But, uh, yeah, back to the season pass. We’ve always had a low-price pass strategy. Um, that’s just who we are. I mean, I always make the argument, too, that with our night skiing, the number of hours we’re open compares to.

00:37:13.000 --> 00:37:26.000

Evan Kovach: resorts up in New England. Um, you know, at least 10 hours, or at least 12 hours a day, we’re open. Um, so when you start to add up the total opportunity to ski, it’s… it’s an insane value. And then the triple play.

00:37:19.000 --> 00:37:20.000

Stuart Winchester: Crazy.

00:37:26.000 --> 00:37:38.000

Evan Kovach: I think people think we’re nuts. Um, I know I’ve been told that I’m nuts before because of that product, but right now it’s selling for $109.99. Um, a single-day lift ticket is $119.99 on a weekend.

00:37:38.000 --> 00:37:55.000

Evan Kovach: And the biggest catch, which isn’t a catch with that product, is there are no blackout dates. You could use it on MLK Sunday, during Christmas week, and on President’s Day. Those could be your three days. There are no blackouts. There are no restrictions.

00:37:44.000 --> 00:37:45.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

00:37:55.000 --> 00:38:02.000

Evan Kovach: And we sell it for less than the price of one Lyft ticket. Um, the sooner you buy, the more you save, obviously, but that’s a product, uh, you know.

00:38:02.000 --> 00:38:24.000

Evan Kovach: We, we, we sell tens of thousands of those, um, and they make great gifts, so people buy them as Christmas presents for their kids, and, you know, as I travel, as I travel the country a little bit more and meet other people at other ski areas, usually the first thing people say to me when I say Mountain Creek, they either, they either mention our water park or they mention the Triple Play. The Triple Play is so widely known, it’s, it’s pretty cool.

00:38:05.000 --> 00:38:07.000

Stuart Winchester: Yes.

00:38:21.000 --> 00:38:23.000

Stuart Winchester: Right.

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Stuart Winchester: Yeah, almost everybody I talk to on the lift, if they’re not a season pass holder, they do the triple play. I’ve never been clear, because I was a season pass holder, always. Does the triple play get the 8am access or not?

00:38:36.000 --> 00:38:38.000

Evan Kovach: They do not.

00:38:37.000 --> 00:38:40.000

Stuart Winchester: Okay, and then, and then…

00:38:38.000 --> 00:38:40.000

Evan Kovach: Keep that just for our pass holders.

00:38:40.000 --> 00:38:55.000

Stuart Winchester: Okay, and let’s talk about snow pass and snow triple play. So, just to run these down for the listeners, the snow pass is currently $359.99, and the snow triple’s $184.99. The snow pass gets you 2 days each.

00:38:56.000 --> 00:39:02.000

Stuart Winchester: At a bunch of ski areas, and then the triple gets you a total of 3 days.

00:39:02.000 --> 00:39:18.000

Stuart Winchester: At a bunch of scary, so if you’re watching on stormskiing.com or YouTube, uh, this is Triple Play’s roster, anything with a number in here, and this column is anything that is snow pass. So, Mountain Creek is on both, with no blackouts. Uh, I guess to start, do they get the 8 AM?

00:39:18.000 --> 00:39:20.000

Stuart Winchester: Access.

00:39:21.000 --> 00:39:25.000

Evan Kovach: The snow pass holders do, the triple play holders do not.

00:39:24.000 --> 00:39:29.000

Stuart Winchester: Okay, that’s important. Okay, cool. Now, and talk about…

00:39:29.000 --> 00:39:49.000

Stuart Winchester: you know, because Mountain Creek, it was part of a network, right, with IntraWest back in the day, but they never really got their pass strategy going, you know, they went bust before they could do that. I guess they eventually turned into Altera and got it right, but you’ve been part of this network now for a full season with the triple play, and now the snow pass launches, and I really like…

00:39:50.000 --> 00:40:05.000

Stuart Winchester: the flow of this. If you’re in New York Metro, Snowpass is two days of big snow, two days of Mound Creek, two days of Bel Air, two days of Gore, two days at Whiteface, two days at Oak Mountain. So there’s a nice south-north setup, right? And it’s very affordable, very approachable.

00:40:05.000 --> 00:40:08.000

Stuart Winchester: Uh, just talk about your expectations around…

00:40:08.000 --> 00:40:11.000

Stuart Winchester: that pass, and…

00:40:11.000 --> 00:40:17.000

Stuart Winchester: And what you anticipate it’s gonna be like to be part of this network of resorts that feed into each other.

00:40:17.000 --> 00:40:26.000

Evan Kovach: Yeah, and obviously the Snow Triple Play was born out of Mountain Creek’s Triple Play, right? We’ve had so much success with that product, it just made sense, but um…

00:40:26.000 --> 00:40:45.000

Evan Kovach: Mountain Creek is very uniquely positioned for this product, right? A lot of, you mentioned it, New York metro area. Um, it’s an insane product for those folks. There’s 20 million skiers within a reasonable drive time of Mountain Creek, and for all those folks, you know, Mountain Creek, 1,000 vertical feet, high-speed lifts out of the base area, it’s a great place to ski.

00:40:45.000 --> 00:41:03.000

Evan Kovach: but you want a taste for something a little bit more, too, at the same time, and I think the, you know, the Whiteface Gore Bel Airs of the world definitely provide that. Um, and then there’s also some options on there if you want to, you know, explore even a little bit more, but when you look at it just from… when I look at it from Mountain Creek’s perspective.

00:41:03.000 --> 00:41:18.000

Evan Kovach: You know, I encourage our skiers and riders to buy these products just because I think it’s great that they could get a taste of these other resorts. The skier in me says that, you know, if I was, you know, high school aged Evan, I probably would own a snow pass.

00:41:17.000 --> 00:41:19.000

Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

00:41:18.000 --> 00:41:34.000

Evan Kovach: Just because I love skiing Bel Air. I love skiing Whiteface. Those are places that I really enjoy. I mean, Platykill is a place I also enjoy. Always good to see Laz and take some laps there in the trees, but…

00:41:22.000 --> 00:41:24.000

Stua…

Who

Dennis Eshbaugh, President and General Manager of Holiday Valley, New York

This is Dennis’ second appearance on The Storm Skiing Podcast:

Date Recorded

Oct. 2, 2026

About Holiday Valley

Owned by: Win-Sum Ski Corp, which Holiday Valley’s website describes as “a closely held corporation owned by a small number of stockholders.”

Year founded: 1957 (opened Jan. 7, 1958)

Pass affiliations: None!

Base elevation: 1,514 feet (bottom of Snowpine Quad)

Summit elevation: 2,324 feet (top of Tannenbaum)

Vertical drop: 736 feet (skiing from the top of Tannenbaum to the bottom of Snowpine would be tricky but not impossible if a skier poached the summit-top walking trails and didn’t mind a little uphill; however, it would not be a great run; the most consistent quality vert would be lapping the Mardi Gras sixer, which is roughly 693 vertical feet.)

Skiable acres: 290 trail acres, but 90 percent-ish of the trees are open enough to ski through (though the trailmap has few marked glades), when there’s sufficient natural snow. Which is often.

Average annual snowfall: 180 inches

Lift count: 13 (1 six-pack, 3 high-speed quads, 7 fixed-grip quads, 2 carpets) – Cindy’s fixed-grip quad chairlift scheduled for replacement with a high-speed quad ahead of winter 2027-28.

Why I interviewed him

We are in the midst of a Great Aerial Lift Reset in the United States. Halfway through this decade, U.S. ski areas have already built nearly the same number of new lifts as they did from 2010-2019:

The last Great Aerial Lift Reset (GALR) came in the 1980s and ‘90s, when ski areas of means discarded not-terribly-old-fixed-grip-lifts and replaced them with detachables.

The difference between GALR 1900s and GALR 2020s is that, in the previous era, most large ski areas were willing to sell their discarded lifts to small ski areas. Today, many hesitate. Holiday Valley does not hesitate. Since the 1990s, the busiest, most aggressively modern ski area in New York State has sold eight chairlifts to seven ski areas in six states. An eighth floated south until it ended up, improbably, in the Andes Mountains of Chile:

Why does Holiday Valley do this? Operators who prefer to sell off the carriers as firepit accessories and scrap the rest often vaguely wave toward liability concerns. But I’m unaware of any injury lawsuit involving a relocated chairlift that blames the seller. Another common argument for scrapping older lifts is that detachable technologies are improving so rapidly that earlier generations of high-speed machines are too outmoded to bother moving. This is certainly true of most lifts built in the 1980s, but 1990s models have proven more durable – Boyne has relocated four within its system, and Holiday Valley’s 1996 Garaventa-CTEC detachable quad is now Corralco’s El Volcan Express.

So when Holiday Valley announced recently that their next lift replacement would be a 2027 detachable quad to replace the 35-year-old Cindy’s fixed-grip quad, the question was not whether they would sell it, but to whom (Holiday Valley also occasionally moves lifts internally).

And when Vail Resorts announced earlier this week that Park City would replace three 1990s chairlifts with two new machines, I thought it was fair to pressure the company to either re-use the lifts or offer them for sale. The three lifts in question are highlighted below. While they’re among the oldest machines on the mountain, they’re not old by U.S. chairlift standards.

I’ve held off reaching out to Vail for comment, as I anticipate seeing reps from Park City at the annual Ski Utah media event next week in New York. Vail knows how to move lifts – Hunter moved the Broadway fixed quad over to the Hunter East beginner zone two years ago, and moved a then-19-year-old bubble detach quad across Okemo in 2021. The last aerial lift relocation from a Vail-owned mountain that I’m aware of is Heavenly’s Powderbowl Yan triple, retired in 2004 and moved to independent (and then-private) Echo Mountain, Colorado in 2005.

If Vail decides to repurpose these Park City lifts elsewhere in their portfolio, fine. But if I see one more social media post humble-bragging about a $50,000 chair-sales donation from a lift worth 10 or 20 times that number, I think it’s fair to question whether the world’s largest ski company is putting its resources and scale to the highest and best use.

Transcripts

There are two transcripts. Both are generated by robots. Both are helpful and defective in their own unique ways. I do not proofread either of them.

Transcript 1: Click the “transcript” button at the top of this article. You can only see this transcript on a computer. Because I don’t know why exactly but everything is getting better and dumber all at once it seems. Anyway, this is the transcript that the robots create when I upload the podcast to the internet. The cool thing about it is that you can click on any block of text and the audio will teleport there instantly. The uncool thing about this transcript is that it does not indicate who is talking at any given moment.

Transcript 2: You can read this below. This is the transcript that Zoom creates as we record the podcast. The cool thing about this transcript is that it indicates who is talking at any given moment. The uncool thing about this transcript is that the timestamps do not match the audio. Also, you cannot click on this text to move to the associated point in the audio.

Zoom

Stuart Winchester: My guest today has been president of Holiday Valley New York since 1995, and general manager since 1989.

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Stuart Winchester: With 13 lifts serving nearly 300 acres of terrain on 750 vertical feet. Holiday Valley is one of the largest and busiest ski areas in New York State. It is also one of the snowiest, averaging 180 inches of lake effect snowfall.

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Stuart Winchester: per winter. He is also, like me, a proud brown dad. Dennis Eshbaugh joins me. Dennis, welcome back to the storm. How you doing today?

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Dennis Eshbaugh: I’m doing great. Good morning, Stuart, and thanks for the introduction, and uh… yes, and congratulations on your daughter at Brown, that’s outstanding.

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Stuart Winchester: Yeah, she seems to be loving it there. She’s in her fourth or fifth week, and uh… just, what a cool town. I’d never been up there, and I just expected Providence to be another city, but it’s very leafy and fun and collegey.

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Dennis Eshbaugh: I had the same experience in our first visit. I’d never been to Providence before Kate went there, and yeah, it’s a great, great town, and a great place for a great school.

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Stuart Winchester: Yeah.

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Stuart Winchester: Yeah, and I didn’t realize this, but Brown is older than America.

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Stuart Winchester: So, it’s one of the… one of the few universities, yeah. All right, Dennis, we’re coming off a pretty…

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Dennis Eshbaugh: Yeah, hard to fathom, isn’t it?

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Stuart Winchester: crummy winter in parts of the country, but it was pretty good in New York, and I… I didn’t ski Holiday Valley last year, but I did get out to Hollomont Buffalo Ski Center, had really good turns there. How was last winter for Holiday Valley?

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Dennis Eshbaugh: Well, the first thing I want to make an observation on is Jane pointed out that you were here in Western New York and didn’t ski with us. So you were duly noted, but the year was good. It was a touch late on the start. We opened a week later than anticipated.

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Stuart Winchester: Sorry.

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Stuart Winchester: Sorry.

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Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.

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Dennis Eshbaugh: Snowfall was average, I think it was in the 186 range, but the consistency of the snow was outstanding. And so the snow year was good, the ski conditions were good, and it was a really solid winter.

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Stuart Winchester: Yeah, I’m sorry I missed. If you want to feel even worse about that, where I blew past you to go ski is Ohio.

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Dennis Eshbaugh: Oh, my goodness! Hey!

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Stuart Winchester: I went and skied all over Ohio and then hit Buffalo on the way back.

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Dennis Eshbaugh: Oh.

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Dennis Eshbaugh: Ohio’s important, it builds skiers.

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Stuart Winchester: It does, it does. And they’re all… four of the five are owned by Vail, and there’s one independent still, so it’s interesting to see all the contrasts. And I wrote that up a little while ago. So, so last time you were on the pod.

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Stuart Winchester: Dennis, and one thing I keep telling my listeners is, one thing I like about doing shorter pods is I can have folks like you on more often, because I talk to you all the time, and bother you all the time, and text you all the time, but I haven’t had you on the pod in 3 years, and you’re a great guest, so it’s great to get you back.

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Stuart Winchester: But you were… you were about… or you were starting the process, or you had just announced you were upgrading Mardi Gras to a six-pack, and that was gonna be the fourth generation for Mardi Gras, and that… that detached quad you were shipping down to Chile. So…

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Stuart Winchester: just talk about that. The first six-pack at Holiday Valley, you know, three seasons in, how do you like it?

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Dennis Eshbaugh: Well, I would say we love it. You know, it’s a great lift. It’s a Doppelmeyer and a great piece of machinery. Of course, like everything, you know, technology continues to improve.

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Dennis Eshbaugh: Um, the six-pack aspect, I mean, you know, I’ve been, I’ve been in this business a long time, and although I’d be perfectly comfortable to ski T-bars, uh, customers today don’t expect that. Um, and, and as the technology improves and the ability to have.

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Stuart Winchester: Right.

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Dennis Eshbaugh: you know, larger seating capacity. Uh, I think there’s a real benefit there in many different aspects. So, um, that lift in particular, we didn’t actually increase our uphill capacity that much. We went from, I think, a design of 2,400 to, I think, that lift is 2,880, so.

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Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

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Dennis Eshbaugh: We’ll round it to 2,900. Um, but the comfort of the chairs, the seating, the ability for large groups, uh, it’s been a winner for us.

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Stuart Winchester: Okay.

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Stuart Winchester: Has it changed the way people use the mountain and the way they distribute themselves? So in other words, given the choice of the six right here or the four here, do you find more people going here than you used to or any other patterns you’ve noticed?

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Stuart Winchester: And how that might have shifted how skiers use Holiday Valley.

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Dennis Eshbaugh: Yeah, I don’t believe it actually has changed the pattern. I mean, Mardi Gras is a really critical lift, because it links the main base area, although there are, you know, four different ways that you can access the mountain, you know, parking areas and access lifts.

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Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

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Dennis Eshbaugh: Um, really five, um, with, uh, the shoe chair.

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Dennis Eshbaugh: But what it has done is it’s made it convenient and it’s a big stepping stone. A, if you arrive here, whether you’ve got a group of family and you’re trying to go up and get into the upper area or get into Hidden Valley or whatever, it’s also the lift, basically the transitional lift. We have a wonderful beginner’s area.

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Dennis Eshbaugh: You know, beginner terrain is critically important, in our opinion, and it’s a great transition lift to get people up into a really good variety of green terrain.

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Stuart Winchester: At this point in Holiday Valley, you know, I made the comments when I was introducing you, Dennis, that Holiday Valley is often, maybe always, the busiest ski area in New York. At this point in your evolution.

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Stuart Winchester: is it more about just taking better care of the skiers that are here, or you still consider Holiday Valley to be in growth mode as far as, yes, we can handle more capacity? So when you get a six-pack, is it about shortening lift lines, or is it about saying, hey, we have a six-pack, more people come here?

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Dennis Eshbaugh: Well, that’s an important question. And I guess our view, my view, is it’s sort of like a tree.

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Dennis Eshbaugh: If it’s not growing, it’s dying, and so you always have to… you always have to look at growth, but… but we’ve always been believers in evolution versus revolution, and… and so as you evolve this area, um…

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Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

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Dennis Eshbaugh: you know, I don’t think there’s an opportunity for double-digit growth, but we can certainly continue to grow, serve more people.

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Dennis Eshbaugh: Um, watch the transition of how people ski when, their patterns, uh, and make sure that we’re providing, uh, what they’re, you know, meeting their expectation, providing what they want.

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Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

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Stuart Winchester: So I have the trail map up for those watching on stormskiing.com, or on YouTube at Storm Ski Journal, which helps make a little more sense. And Holiday Valley, it’s this…

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Stuart Winchester: It doesn’t really look like this, but the trail map does a really good job of capturing everything without having insets and all these different things, so it really skis like a bunch of distinct ski areas, so it kind of looks like a long ridge on this trail map, but it skis much more like a bunch of.

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Stuart Winchester: different peaks. So, you know, Mardi Gras, Dennis, this is… those are your fourth generation Lyft, and Holiday Valley has upgraded Lyfts at a faster clip than probably anyone in the country, or at least as fast as anyone in the country, and you’re on your fourth generation of many different Lyfts. You recently announced what I believe is a.

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Stuart Winchester: third generation for Cindy’s Quad. Do you want to tell us about what’s going on at Cindy’s?

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Dennis Eshbaugh: Well, I’m glad to, and I also had to give you a compliment, uh, Stuart. You do a better job of keeping track of the statistics than I do, um, and that is important, and, you know, that generation of lift and that evolution. Cindy’s, you know, first started as a double chair, went to a quad, um.

00:12:33.000 --> 00:12:34.000

Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.

00:12:34.000 --> 00:12:46.000

Dennis Eshbaugh: And, uh, uh, that lift is… was 1991 when it was installed, and yeah, this is the third edition. Um, so, yeah, what happens and why? Um…

00:12:46.000 --> 00:13:02.000

Dennis Eshbaugh: You know, the first thing is we’re fortunate, I guess, that we’re in a position where we can continue to evolve the technology of our lifts. Every lift, whether it’s 10 years or whether it’s 60 years old, safety is really all about maintenance and operation.

00:13:02.000 --> 00:13:18.000

Dennis Eshbaugh: Um, and that’s critical for every operator today, and I think everybody in the industry knows and appreciates that. Um, so what do you accomplish with a new detachable? Well, convenience, of course, is wonderful. Speed, uphill, I mean, the throughput.

00:13:18.000 --> 00:13:30.000

Dennis Eshbaugh: for, um, you know, the avid skier, the expert skier, um, is amazing, and I think it’s important for the expectation of today’s guests. Um…

00:13:30.000 --> 00:13:45.000

Dennis Eshbaugh: you know, expert skiers in, you know, the era of the 70s and 80s, on a typical Saturday, you were lucky to make 20 runs, because you spent most of the day in lift lines or on a slow-moving lift.

00:13:45.000 --> 00:14:00.000

Dennis Eshbaugh: And, you know, time is critically important to people. People ski shorter days than ever, and that… I don’t see that changing. Um, and… and so an avid skier can come here on that Saturday and get those 20 runs in an hour and a half.

00:14:00.000 --> 00:14:02.000

Dennis Eshbaugh: Now, um…

00:14:02.000 --> 00:14:17.000

Dennis Eshbaugh: the beauty, I guess, of a detachable or high-speed, A, it allows the throughput, increases the uphill, uh, reduces the time, increases, basically, your ability as a skier to get up and down. Um, but then what it really also does for every skier.

00:14:17.000 --> 00:14:35.000

Dennis Eshbaugh: that, you know, that, uh, comfortable load and unload, it goes a long way. And, uh, it’s great for families, great for new skiers, great, you know, to get into the sport. Quite frankly, as an advanced skier, I think probably you see this, Stuart, uh, it’s easy to sometimes not pay attention.

00:14:35.000 --> 00:14:39.000

Dennis Eshbaugh: Uh, because lifts are so easy to get on and off today.

00:14:38.000 --> 00:14:39.000

Stuart Winchester: Yeah.

00:14:39.000 --> 00:14:43.000

Stuart Winchester: Yeah, you know, last time I spoke with you, Dennis.

00:14:43.000 --> 00:14:53.000

Stuart Winchester: Yodler, the Yodler Express quad, was 2 years old, and that had replaced a 20-year-old fixed-grip quad, and I asked you.

00:14:53.000 --> 00:15:08.000

Stuart Winchester: did you have hesitation about doing that, or something like that? And you said, yeah, I really, you know, pressed the team on why we needed to do that. So, here we are, 5 years after, and Cindy’s is not quite as short as Yodler, but.

00:15:08.000 --> 00:15:14.000

Stuart Winchester: It’s a fairly short lift for a detachable, 2,000-some feet, so…

00:15:14.000 --> 00:15:22.000

Stuart Winchester: I guess you did find there was enough to like about a short detachable to continue building them, or are there other factors at play here?

00:15:22.000 --> 00:15:38.000

Dennis Eshbaugh: Well, there are always other factors, but it starts with the customer. And one of the messages that I heard, actually a good friend of mine that is an avid skier and excellent skier.

00:15:38.000 --> 00:15:53.000

Dennis Eshbaugh: He said Yoda Yodler basically transformed his scheme because of, because of his ability to get um more runs in more vertical in a shorter period of time. And, you know, I, I personally, I wasn’t driven.

00:15:42.000 --> 00:15:44.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmm.

00:15:48.000 --> 00:15:49.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

00:15:53.000 --> 00:16:08.000

Dennis Eshbaugh: Uh, from that perspective as much, but I recognize the importance. Uh, in the case of Cindy’s, um, it’s more blue terrain, uh, although it has access to, to other, uh, little steeper pitches. Um, it’s got a, uh, ratio off of it, and uh.

00:16:08.000 --> 00:16:13.000

Dennis Eshbaugh: Fox Fire, which is important terrain.

00:16:13.000 --> 00:16:24.000

Dennis Eshbaugh: But the other thing that happens as you change a lift out, in our case, I mean, we’ve got a skier that’s been here a long time. We’re continuing, you know, to try to make it better, perfect what we can.

00:16:24.000 --> 00:16:30.000

Dennis Eshbaugh: it gives us an opportunity, um, to make some changes, which we have. You know, that first alignment.

00:16:30.000 --> 00:16:37.000

Dennis Eshbaugh: When the original double was built in 1978, the area was different at that point in time.

00:16:37.000 --> 00:16:58.000

Dennis Eshbaugh: interconnecting lifts up at the top were different. The golf course and the summer aspect was different. The circulation, etc. So one of the beauties of replacing Cindy’s and and putting this this new lift in this year is we’re making significant improvements in the infrastructure base area around it, changing some things in the golf course and the number one tee.

00:16:58.000 --> 00:17:15.000

Dennis Eshbaugh: moving the base of the lift so we have an improved milling area for the skier, as well as we’re actually going to gain some beginner terrain because of the former alignment, and moving it slightly west. So there are a lot of things that many of our skiers might not.

00:17:11.000 --> 00:17:12.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmm.

00:17:15.000 --> 00:17:20.000

Dennis Eshbaugh: initially noticed, but they will make the ski resort better.

00:17:17.000 --> 00:17:18.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

00:17:20.000 --> 00:17:30.000

Stuart Winchester: So, for folks familiar with Cindy’s in this busy area right here, the load station will move in what direction from where it is right now?

00:17:28.000 --> 00:17:44.000

Dennis Eshbaugh: Well, from where your arrow is now, it’ll move slightly right. And then if you move even further right, you’re actually in the area where the number one tee is for the golf course. And so, you know, there’s a few things. There’s a golf irrigation.

00:17:35.000 --> 00:17:37.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

00:17:39.000 --> 00:17:41.000

Stuart Winchester: Okay.

00:17:44.000 --> 00:18:00.000

Dennis Eshbaugh: a reservoir right there that’s getting relocated to open that up, and then we’re going to have the ability, if you… if you look at the alignment of Mardi Gras, just to the west or to the right, uh, north wind slope parallels that, and again, this NIHU’s map, which is an outstanding map, does not.

00:18:00.000 --> 00:18:18.000

Dennis Eshbaugh: reflect the complexity and the depth of the mountain faces. But Northwind is a really important slope that parallels Mardi Gras, and it’s going to allow us to actually improve that bottom and interconnect where it comes into Cindy’s, what we call the East Complex. So, yeah, it’s, you know, these are small things, but I think.

00:18:02.000 --> 00:18:03.000

Stuart Winchester: Yeah.

00:18:12.000 --> 00:18:14.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmm.

00:18:15.000 --> 00:18:16.000

Stuart Winchester: Right.

00:18:18.000 --> 00:18:23.000

Dennis Eshbaugh: I think they’re really good things to make good skiing, better skiing.

00:18:22.000 --> 00:18:28.000

Stuart Winchester: And so you have a slightly different load, you’re still unloading at the same spot up top, Dennis?

00:18:27.000 --> 00:18:47.000

Dennis Eshbaugh: Actually, we moved the top as well. We are changing some of the alignment, the tree line. The lift is no longer going to be on the Cindy Slope. It’s actually going to be further west of that, and it will come off really at the eastern top, or when you’re looking at the map on the left.

00:18:29.000 --> 00:18:30.000

Stuart Winchester: Okay.

00:18:34.000 --> 00:18:35.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

00:18:39.000 --> 00:18:40.000

Stuart Winchester: Oh.

00:18:47.000 --> 00:18:58.000

Dennis Eshbaugh: top edge of Foxfire, right where your, uh, arrow is. Um, it will still have good access to the Cindy’s, uh, mountaintop, uh, warming hut. It’ll have great access onto the slope.

00:18:58.000 --> 00:19:03.000

Dennis Eshbaugh: the lift towers disappear off of Cindy’s Slope, which we’re really excited about.

00:19:03.000 --> 00:19:06.000

Stuart Winchester: Did they go… you’re cutting a new line in the woods?

00:19:05.000 --> 00:19:17.000

Dennis Eshbaugh: Yes, yep. Yeah, actually underway right now. We don’t have final engineering drawings, but we do have tower alignments, profiles are complete.

00:19:06.000 --> 00:19:08.000

Stuart Winchester: Oh, cool.

00:19:17.000 --> 00:19:18.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

00:19:17.000 --> 00:19:31.000

Dennis Eshbaugh: Um, and so our hope is that we will actually get the foundations for the tower line in, uh, in October and November. Um, you know, the Europeans have been doing 2-year lift installs for some time.

00:19:30.000 --> 00:19:31.000

Stuart Winchester: Yeah, that’s true.

00:19:31.000 --> 00:19:36.000

Dennis Eshbaugh: And it was slow to reach the US.

00:19:35.000 --> 00:19:36.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

00:19:36.000 --> 00:19:54.000

Dennis Eshbaugh: But when we did that on Mardi Gras, it was really wonderful in what it did to allow, I guess, a better pattern, if you will, as far as schedule of construction, direction of the top and bottom terminals, you know, and all the equipment that interfaces with that.

00:19:47.000 --> 00:19:48.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

00:19:55.000 --> 00:19:59.000

Stuart Winchester: Um, so you’re actually doing this one in a two-year cycle as well, so…

00:19:58.000 --> 00:20:16.000

Dennis Eshbaugh: Yeah, if we get this tower line complete, and we’re a little tight on time on this, but I think we will. We’ll have the foundation lines ready, and I just lost power for the fourth time this morning. You can probably see that on your screen, Stuart.

00:20:03.000 --> 00:20:05.000

Stuart Winchester: Yeah.

00:20:12.000 --> 00:20:13.000

Stuart Winchester: Okay.

00:20:15.000 --> 00:20:18.000

Stuart Winchester: I can, but your connection’s still good, so…

00:20:16.000 --> 00:20:17.000

Dennis Eshbaugh: Okay.

00:20:17.000 --> 00:20:25.000

Dennis Eshbaugh: Yeah, well, we’ll see how the auxiliary battery backup holds up.

00:20:22.000 --> 00:20:37.000

Stuart Winchester: Yeah, yeah, we’ll see, uh, if a more, if a more important service at, at Holiday Valley needs, uh, that energy than, than this podcast, then, uh, I can, I can connect with you later. So, okay, so we’ll get a new Cindy’s, that then sounds like it’ll be ready for 28, 29 season?

00:20:37.000 --> 00:20:43.000

Dennis Eshbaugh: Yes, that’s the goal was 27, 28. Yes, next.

00:20:38.000 --> 00:20:39.000

Stuart Winchester: Or…

00:20:40.000 --> 00:20:42.000

Stuart Winchester: Or 27, 28, I’m sorry.

00:20:42.000 --> 00:20:52.000

Stuart Winchester: 27, 28. Okay, perfect. So, at that point, Dennis, you’re gonna have… Cindy’s will be a 37-year-old fixed grip quad, right? This chair you take out.

00:20:43.000 --> 00:20:45.000

Dennis Eshbaugh: Yep. Yep.

00:20:52.000 --> 00:20:57.000

Stuart Winchester: And Holiday Valley, more than almost any other ski area.

00:20:57.000 --> 00:21:01.000

Stuart Winchester: that I’m aware of in the country. The only other one that’s…

00:21:01.000 --> 00:21:16.000

Stuart Winchester: done this nearly as much as Deer Valley, has been really, really good about either repurposing your lifts on your own slopes, or selling them to other ski areas, and you did an inventory for me last year, and it was 8.

00:21:04.000 --> 00:21:06.000

Dennis Eshbaugh: Okay.

00:21:16.000 --> 00:21:33.000

Stuart Winchester: lifts that had gone on to other ski areas, and you said they were in, in Chile, and you, and that’s the, uh, Coralco lift, the, the old Mardi Gras one, New York Mass, that’s Catamount’s, Catamount Quad, and that was the old, the older, that 20 year old, the older, uh, this, Cindy’s double went up to.

00:21:33.000 --> 00:21:50.000

Stuart Winchester: Ragged and is now retired. Uh, and then the Schoolhouse double went to Four Seasons. That’s unfortunately now a closed ski area. He is trying to sell it. Uh, maybe you can buy it back. Uh, and the, uh, Snow Pine double went to Toggenberg, which unfortunately is also closed, but as far as I know, the lift is still there.

00:21:50.000 --> 00:21:59.000

Stuart Winchester: I couldn’t… I couldn’t find which Lyfts you had sold to in West Virginia, Wisconsin, in Montana. I don’t know if you remember them off the top of your head, but…

00:21:59.000 --> 00:22:01.000

Stuart Winchester: In every case.

00:22:01.000 --> 00:22:08.000

Stuart Winchester: These lifts have gone to ski areas that probably couldn’t have afforded a brand new chairlift.

00:22:08.000 --> 00:22:11.000

Stuart Winchester: But still got…

00:22:11.000 --> 00:22:19.000

Stuart Winchester: a good enough new-use lift that they were able to refurbish to continue to evolve their mountain. So.

00:22:19.000 --> 00:22:22.000

Stuart Winchester: Just philosophically.

00:22:22.000 --> 00:22:32.000

Stuart Winchester: Is this something that’s important to you? Is this just a business transaction? You’re like, highest bidder, take off with the lift. How do you view this? Because it’s been a pattern for decades.

00:22:32.000 --> 00:22:50.000

Dennis Eshbaugh: Well, I would say, you know, probably in the early days, it was a business transaction. I mean, you know, you watch… you always watch every dollar you have. That’s important. You know, the old adage, if you watch the pennies, the dollars take care of themselves. Um, you know, that’s an old adage. But, um…

00:22:50.000 --> 00:23:05.000

Dennis Eshbaugh: No, I think we look beyond that. You know, I think it’s really important to a lot of areas to have, you know, a lift that’s affordable, and a used lift, you know, can help them get there. You still have to comply, of course, with.

00:23:05.000 --> 00:23:19.000

Dennis Eshbaugh: you know, whatever the code requirements are. And, uh, you know, that’s pretty straightforward. Um, the idea of repurposing, um, you know, I think is really important. I think it’s good, you know, environmental stewardship.

00:23:19.000 --> 00:23:24.000

Dennis Eshbaugh: Um, I think it’s good for the, you know, the operator and the industry in general.

00:23:24.000 --> 00:23:36.000

Dennis Eshbaugh: I also understand the complexity, especially for bigger companies. The manufacturers, you know, they have some concerns relative, I think, just to liability, because they’re, so to speak, out of the loop.

00:23:36.000 --> 00:23:44.000

Dennis Eshbaugh: Um, uh, and there’s certainly, you know, I think some scaries that would look at this and say, I… I…

00:23:44.000 --> 00:23:57.000

Dennis Eshbaugh: I’m not willing to accept the liability of selling a lift to someone else. Um, there’s risk in everything we do. Um, you know, our belief is that it’s good for other operators and good for the industry.

00:23:58.000 --> 00:24:14.000

Stuart Winchester: Do you think that you just have a higher risk tolerance than maybe the average ski area operator? Because you’re also one of the few ski areas that still self-installs, as far as I’m aware, and I’m not, I guess, I’m not sure if you’re doing that with Cindy’s, but you do have a high degree of expertise there.

00:24:14.000 --> 00:24:24.000

Stuart Winchester: You’ve done this so much. I just wonder, do you have a higher risk tolerance for risk, or is the risk exaggerated?

00:24:25.000 --> 00:24:27.000

Dennis Eshbaugh: Yes?

00:24:27.000 --> 00:24:41.000

Dennis Eshbaugh: Uh, to all those questions. Um, so, yeah, why do we do it? Well, we do it because we have Jim Curtis as Director of Mountain Operations. This will be his 23rd lift installation. Jim started as a young man here.

00:24:41.000 --> 00:24:47.000

Dennis Eshbaugh: Um, and it has built probably more ski lifts than a lot of people that are in lift manufacturing business.

00:24:47.000 --> 00:25:04.000

Dennis Eshbaugh: Uh, so, yeah, we’ve got a team in, in, uh, Mountain Ops here that, you know, they’re proud of their lift installations, they know their lifts inside and out. That serves us, our customer, and everyone, and, and quite frankly, you know, we’re pretty proud of their work, and they’re proud of their work.

00:25:04.000 --> 00:25:06.000

Dennis Eshbaugh: Um…

00:25:06.000 --> 00:25:13.000

Dennis Eshbaugh: As far as the risk tolerance, you know, I think part of risk tolerance.

00:25:13.000 --> 00:25:15.000

Dennis Eshbaugh: you know, comes with…

00:25:15.000 --> 00:25:31.000

Dennis Eshbaugh: being a bit of a technocrat and really understanding what the risks are, measuring them, going through, you know, the process management, if you will, steps of saying, you know, what are the real risks? You have to also, you have to look at what you are risking, of course.

00:25:17.000 --> 00:25:18.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

00:25:32.000 --> 00:25:38.000

Dennis Eshbaugh: Um, you’ve gotta have, uh, a solid team behind you. We’ve gotta…

00:25:38.000 --> 00:25:50.000

Dennis Eshbaugh: we’ve got a company, and our board has rarely transitioned, that has been incredibly consistent. It’s a small group that stands behind what we do, and has for 60-some years.

00:25:50.000 --> 00:26:03.000

Dennis Eshbaugh: Um, so… yeah, the answer is yes to all of those things, but is there risk? Of course there’s risk. Um, is it, uh, made, hopefully, um…

00:26:03.000 --> 00:26:06.000

Dennis Eshbaugh: you know, a sound decision? Yeah, we believe so.

00:26:06.000 --> 00:26:09.000

Stuart Winchester: Yeah, I, I’m, I’m just not aware of any move.

00:26:09.000 --> 00:26:22.000

Stuart Winchester: Moved chairlift that ever got the original seller in legal trouble and in a lot of the smaller ski area operators that I speak with, and we were both up at the ski areas of New York and Pennsylvania convention last week.

00:26:22.000 --> 00:26:25.000

Stuart Winchester: And one of their biggest…

00:26:25.000 --> 00:26:36.000

Stuart Winchester: concerns is that as consolidation accelerates, and you have large players owning a lot of mountains, some of these large players seem unwilling to.

00:26:36.000 --> 00:26:39.000

Stuart Winchester: Put their lifts on the secondary market.

00:26:39.000 --> 00:26:40.000

Stuart Winchester: And…

00:26:40.000 --> 00:26:46.000

Stuart Winchester: it’s almost at the point where in New York and in Pennsylvania, it might be almost an existential.

00:26:46.000 --> 00:26:55.000

Stuart Winchester: crisis, because they have 60-year-old haul lifts, and there won’t be anything to replace them. So when you have something like Cindy’s, I mean, I’d imagine the first thing you think of is, can we use.

00:26:55.000 --> 00:27:08.000

Stuart Winchester: And if not, what does that process look like? Do you… I imagine you know everybody in New York. Do you reach out and say, hey, you want this lift, or do you just advertise it? How does that… like, if someone’s listening to this and they’re like, oh man, I want that 2,000-foot-long quad.

00:27:09.000 --> 00:27:28.000

Dennis Eshbaugh: Well, yeah, that’s a very good point. It’s not like, yeah, you call it up and, you know, ski lifts are us, or whatever, right? It lists the thing. We actually are just in the process of putting together, basically, a listing of, you know, what the original equipment is, the current equipment.

00:27:16.000 --> 00:27:18.000

Stuart Winchester: Yeah, I think so.

00:27:28.000 --> 00:27:38.000

Dennis Eshbaugh: the condition of the lift, the hours of operation, etc. Um, there are a handful of really good people in the industry that are involved in lift construction.

00:27:38.000 --> 00:27:55.000

Dennis Eshbaugh: Um, there are, I guess, probably 4 or 5 scaries that have already, uh, approached, uh, us and said we’d like to be contacted. Uh, I actually… I had an individual that I’ve known a long time, uh, reach out this week and say.

00:27:55.000 --> 00:28:06.000

Dennis Eshbaugh: Um, could we make a deal with you before… before the lift is listed? Um, which is a nice problem to have, uh, whether or not that works out, I don’t know. Um…

00:27:59.000 --> 00:28:00.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

00:28:06.000 --> 00:28:18.000

Dennis Eshbaugh: So, yeah, it is a bit of word of mouth, though, actually. And we’ll see how it goes, right? I’ll know more six months from now.

00:28:18.000 --> 00:28:32.000

Stuart Winchester: So, just from talking to people around the industry, your Holiday Valley has a really excellent reputation for lift maintenance, so people are very happy to buy a lift from you. I’m gonna ask a question that you may not answer. I’m wondering…

00:28:32.000 --> 00:28:39.000

Stuart Winchester: if you can tell us anything about how much these tend to sell for. And the reason I’m asking…

00:28:39.000 --> 00:28:42.000

Stuart Winchester: Is because a lot of the larger operators, uh.

00:28:42.000 --> 00:28:47.000

Stuart Winchester: Uh, they will… when they take down an old lift, they will auction the chairlifts.

00:28:47.000 --> 00:28:56.000

Stuart Winchester: And they will put them online. And then they will donate all that money to charity, which is great. And they say, we donated $75,000 to XYZ. Fine.

00:28:56.000 --> 00:28:59.000

Stuart Winchester: But I’m curious, if they would have sold the Lyft.

00:28:59.000 --> 00:29:01.000

Stuart Winchester: and donated the proceeds.

00:29:02.000 --> 00:29:07.000

Stuart Winchester: how much more valuable is the intact machine? And I know sometimes a Lyft is just toast.

00:29:07.000 --> 00:29:13.000

Stuart Winchester: But, you know, Bill, not too long ago, took out a 40-year-old fixed-grip quad at Mount Snow, and…

00:29:13.000 --> 00:29:25.000

Stuart Winchester: basically recycled it. So… so is there anything you can tell us about how much the lift is worth versus the chairs for something like, say, Yodler when it was 20 years old and you sold it, or Cindy’s, which is about double that?

00:29:26.000 --> 00:29:37.000

Dennis Eshbaugh: I think that’s harder to do today than it was 10 years ago. There were more lifts, I think, available and being sold, and the market was probably better understood or better known. It’s been interesting when I’ve talked.

00:29:37.000 --> 00:29:46.000

Dennis Eshbaugh: Uh, with my peers in the industry that… that are really involved in lift construction in the… in the last 6 months or a year, um…

00:29:46.000 --> 00:29:52.000

Dennis Eshbaugh: everyone’s afraid to give you, so what should the list sell for? And everyone starts looking at their toes.

00:29:52.000 --> 00:30:01.000

Dennis Eshbaugh: Um, you know, from an experience standpoint, uh, I would say, uh, Lyft would sell anywhere from.

00:30:01.000 --> 00:30:17.000

Dennis Eshbaugh: Bottom would be 5% of value of a new one if the lift is really in poor condition, needs a lot of TLC. 10% of a value of a new lift is probably a common number, and 15 or 20 if it’s exceptional.

00:30:18.000 --> 00:30:20.000

Dennis Eshbaugh: Um, so…

00:30:20.000 --> 00:30:32.000

Dennis Eshbaugh: you know, what does that mean? I would guess that lift, the machinery for that lift today, uh, probably would be in the range of contract of $2.5 to $3 million to buy a new fixed-grip quad today of that size.

00:30:32.000 --> 00:30:33.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

00:30:33.000 --> 00:30:36.000

Dennis Eshbaugh: But I’m not really sure.

00:30:35.000 --> 00:30:37.000

Stuart Winchester: Damn.

00:30:36.000 --> 00:30:44.000

Dennis Eshbaugh: And so but I’ll I’ll throw that. That’s a lot of a lot of words. 10%. So.

00:30:41.000 --> 00:30:42.000

Stuart Winchester: Yes.

00:30:43.000 --> 00:30:53.000

Stuart Winchester: That’s extremely helpful, actually, and I’ve never heard anyone break it down quite like that before. So, when you make these deals, and let’s say somebody does buy Cindy’s, and…

00:30:53.000 --> 00:31:03.000

Stuart Winchester: I know you have that expertise to self-install. Would you then take it down and then offer to help them put it back up if they wanted, or do you just sell it and say, get your own engineering?

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Dennis Eshbaugh: Yeah, that’s… that is a very good and important point. Um, we only take them down, uh, because we want to control everything on our property. And when we sell the lift, it is FOB, our parking lot.

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Stuart Winchester: Yep.

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Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

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Dennis Eshbaugh: Um, we have equipment to help them load. For example, the Mardi Gras lift that went to Chile, um, was packed into containers. It was fascinating. Uh, and the team that came and did that did an outstanding job.

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Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

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Dennis Eshbaugh: Um, so we do not offer, uh, any outside, uh, off-premise. Uh, we really… we’ve got our hands full keeping track of our own equipment and machinery, and uh, uh, we have control of that, we know our systems, but we’re really not set up to be out on the road, uh, installing.

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Dennis Eshbaugh: Installing ski lifts for others.

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Stuart Winchester: And I’d imagine that would change that liability equation quite a bit. I had Jimmy Ackerson, the general manager of Caralco in Chile, who bought your old Mardi Gras lift on the pod, and he talked about that process of moving the lift from Western New York to Chile. And I mean, it took them a couple of years to do everything because it was such a distance.

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Dennis Eshbaugh: Mm-hmm.

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Stuart Winchester: So that was a really impressive project. So let me…

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Stuart Winchester: I’ll ask you…

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Dennis Eshbaugh: Before you ask the question, I’m just gonna add, and I think Jimmy, and I listened to that podcast, you did a great job with him. He’s an impressive guy. And they did an outstanding job with that lift. They needed some US support and assistance to get it done.

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Stuart Winchester: Yep.

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Stuart Winchester: Yeah, I think so.

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Stuart Winchester: Thank you.

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Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

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Dennis Eshbaugh: But they really did a great job in that install.

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Stuart Winchester: Yeah, it looks really cool. Have you gotten down there to ride it?

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Dennis Eshbaugh: I have not. I have not.

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Stuart Winchester: What a trip that would be, right? To ride your old Lyft in South America. So let me give you a…

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Dennis Eshbaugh: Yeah.

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Dennis Eshbaugh: Yes.

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Stuart Winchester: Uh, well, it’s not really a hypothetical, but I’m, I’m just curious if you have any thoughts on this. So, so Vale Resorts is going to install two new lifts at Park City. They’ve been trying to put these lifts in for a long time. So they are taking out a 1996 Garaventa CTEC six pack and replacing it with an eight pack. That’s the silver load ch.

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Stuart Winchester: They are taking out two Garaventa CTEC triple chairs. One is a 95, one is a 93, and they’re replacing those two lifts with one lift, a six pack.

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Stuart Winchester: So to me, I sit here and look at these and I say, okay.

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Stuart Winchester: 30-year-old fixed-grip triples are probably in great shape, especially for a mountain like Park City that doesn’t have night skiing. Uh, that 1996 six-pack.

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