The Systemic Talent Management Podcast

When organisations need new capabilities, the default answer has increasingly become: hire it. But what are we losing by not building it?

In this episode of the Systemic Talent Management Podcast, Professor David Clutterbuck and Riddhika Khoosal are joined by Peter Cappelli, George W. Taylor Professor of Management at The Wharton School and Director of Wharton’s Center for Human Resources, to explore why organisations have moved away from developing people internally and towards a model of buying talent when they need it.

Peter argues that the shift was driven not simply by changing business needs, but by a growing reluctance to invest in development, an increasing reliance on managers who have neither the time nor the skills to develop people, and a fixation on short-term cost reduction. The conversation challenges the assumption that hiring is the answer, explores whether technology is actually making recruitment better, and asks what it would take for HR to stop trying to predict an uncertain future and start managing it more effectively.

About Our Guest

Peter Cappelli is the George W. Taylor Professor of Management at The Wharton School and Director of Wharton’s Center for Human Resources. He has been recognised by HR Magazine as one of the world’s top management thinkers. His research and writing have shaped thinking on talent management, hiring, workforce development and employment, with his work appearing in publications including Harvard Business Review and The Wall Street Journal.

Episode Soundbite

“We have to start thinking about managing uncertainty rather than assuming it away.” - Peter Cappelli

Timestamps

00:00 Episode preview: Why organisations stopped building talent
01:51 Peter’s journey into the study of work and employment
07:02 How talent acquisition eclipsed talent management
08:43 Why organisations stopped developing talent internally
13:36 Why great individual contributors don’t always make great managers
16:10 What candidates really think about AI recruitment
23:16 Rethinking hiring in a rapidly changing world
26:19 The problem with “culture fit”
29:35 Managing uncertainty through scenarios and small bets
34:13 What HR analytics should actually measure
36:21 Why learning by doing matters
40:42 The biggest opportunity for talent management
42:12 Why HR needs to challenge senior leaders

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Peter Cappelli: LinkedIn Profile
David Clutterbuck: LinkedIn Profile
Riddhika Khoosal:LinkedIn Profile

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Are we focusing HR’s energy on the things that actually make the biggest difference?

In this episode of The Systemic Talent Management Podcast, Professor David Clutterbuck and Riddhika Khoosal are joined by Marc Effron, Founder and President of The Talent Strategy Group, to explore leverage in HR: identifying the few things within a talent process that have the greatest impact. Marc challenges the complexity that has accumulated around HR practices, making the case for a more disciplined approach grounded in science, business outcomes, and managerial accountability.

From goal setting and talent reviews to potential, talent acquisition, and 360-degree feedback, the conversation asks a fundamental question: are we focusing our time and energy on the things that actually make a difference?

About Our Guest

Marc Effron is the founder and President of The Talent Strategy Group, where he advises leading companies, governments, and nonprofits on talent strategy. He co-authored the bestselling One Page Talent Management and wrote 8 Steps to High Performance, both published by Harvard Business Review Press. Marc co-founded the Talent Management Institute at UNC Kenan-Flagler Business School. He previously held executive HR roles at Bank of America and Avon Products.

Episode Soundbite

"Goal setting is the leverage in performance management... Get goal setting right. Everything flows well from it." - Marc Effron

Timestamps

• 00:00 Episode preview: Why goal setting is HR's greatest lever
• 02:09 Marc's journey: Political campaigns, academic research, and the corporate world
• 05:37 HR bling: When complexity works against its intent
• 08:18 Becoming a business junkie: Why HR must know the numbers
• 10:07 Start with the science: Separating what matters from bling
• 13:20 Swinging the pendulum: Why abandoning processes isn't the answer
• 14:51 Finding the leverage: Goal setting, potential, and managerial accountability
• 18:25 Rethinking potential: The fit between person and situation
• 23:48 Trait vs. state ambition: A powerful combination
• 25:53 Learning agility: What's really behind the label
• 27:16 Hiring for potential when the future of jobs is uncertain
• 30:51 Doing the job vs. transforming it: Risk in hiring decisions
• 33:29 Using the selection tools we already have
• 34:48 Tackling persistent bias through clear standards
• 38:22 The one thing HR should stop: Traditional 360s
• 44:29 Closing thoughts: Start with the science, end with accountability

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Marc Effron: Talent Strategy Group | LinkedIn

Prof. David Clutterbuck: LinkedIn

Riddhika Khoosal: LinkedIn

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What if the core HR practices you rely on to drive organisational success are based on unexamined assumptions rather than solid evidence?

In this episode of the Systemic Talent Management Podcast, Professor David Clutterbuck and Riddhika Khoosal sit down with Professor Rob Briner (Queen Mary University of London & Corporate Research Forum) to explore what happens when HR grounds its decisions in evidence. Rob examines why popular practices, from performance appraisals to Tuckman's model and change curves, fail under scientific scrutiny.

Together, they unpack how linear thinking and a bias towards immediate action often prevent organisations from diagnosing the real problems. Rob outlines a practical framework for evidence-based practice, urging HR leaders to slow down, clear the decks of misleading beliefs, and make decisions using multiple sources of structured data.

About Our Guest

Rob Briner is Professor of Organisational Psychology at Queen Mary University of London and Research Director at Corporate Research Forum. For nearly three decades, he has championed Evidence-Based Practice across HRM, management, and work psychology. He leads CRF’s Work Psychology Network and regularly publishes critical reviews examining popular workplace claims (e.g learning styles, psychological safety, growth mindset) to evaluate whether they are backed by scientific evidence.

Episode Soundbite

“To be evidence-based in any field, from medicine to policing to management, a really important first point is to try and clear the decks... and challenge quite a few assumptions that we make about the issues and problems we're dealing with.” - Prof. Rob Briner

Timestamps

00:00 Episode preview: Why evidence-based HR starts with clearing the decks

01:13 Welcome & Guest Introduction

03:10 Beyond linear thinking: Why evidence-based HR requires multiple sources

06:00 - Challenging HR myths: Performance appraisals & change curves

07:31 The engagement myth: Why attitudes don't directly drive performance

09:44 The teamwork myth: Why pseudo-teams fail to deliver expected results

11:05 The deliverables myth: Why individual deliverables don't guarantee organisational performance

13:25 Questioning pseudoscience: Tuckman, Maslow, & Kübler-Ross

17:02 Clearing the decks, challenging assumptions, & recognising bias

21:14 Diagnosing the real problem before jumping to solutions

37:39 Why teams don't always create better performance

44:43 The courage to stop ineffective practices & challenge leaders

47:21 What the research shows about predictors of performance

53:04 Closing thoughts

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Prof. Rob Briner: LinkedIn | Corporate Research Forum (rob@crforum.co.uk)

Prof. David Clutterbuck: LinkedIn

Riddhika Khoosal: LinkedIn

What if the feedback systems you rely on to help your people grow are actually making their performance worse?

Research shows that over a third of feedback interventions lead to worse performance. In this episode of the Systemic Talent Management Podcast, Professor David Clutterbuck and Riddhika Khoosal sit down with Peter Berridge (CEO of Shift Positive, Executive Coach, and Author) to unpack why traditional feedback models fail and how to fix them.

Peter argues that standard feedback isn't broken by intent, but by design: it isolates individuals, focuses heavily on shortcomings, and hides behind anonymity. Through his Shift Positive® method, Peter introduces a relational framework built on strengths, growth, and allyship, shifting feedback from a one-way evaluation into a collaborative, solution-focused driver of change.

Together, they explore how to build a feedback-seeking culture, transform evaluators into developmental allies, and redesign HR systems around a simple truth: we don't change alone, we change in relationship with others.

About Our Guest

Peter Berridge is CEO of Shift Positive, an Executive Coach and Author. He is the co-creator of the Shift Positive® Method and co-author of Feedback Reimagined, which explores how positive psychology and social support can transform the way organisations approach feedback. Peter holds a Master of Applied Positive Psychology from the University of Pennsylvania and has more than 25 years of experience across executive coaching, facilitation and human resources.

Episode Soundbite

“Feedback is perspective, it's not truth. And feedback is relative and relational to the person providing it.” - Peter Berridge

Timestamps

• 00:00 - Episode preview: Why traditional feedback can make performance worse
• 01:09 - Peter's journey: HR, coaching and positive psychology
• 02:43 - The research behind feedback failure
• 05:08 - Why feedback systems are designed around the illusion of the individual
• 07:18 - Why traditional feedback systems fail
• 10:30 - Introducing Shift Positive: Strengths, Growth and Allyship
• 12:50 - Moving beyond weaknesses: From problem-focused to solution-focused feedback
• 15:15 - Turning stakeholders into allies
• 16:27 - The mindset shifts needed for meaningful feedback
• 18:02 - Feedback is perspective, not truth
• 20:24 - Why confidentiality may be a symptom of a broken system
• 21:45 - What HR leaders can learn from the Shift Positive approach
• 24:09 - Share your goals, ask for help, and follow through
• 26:30 - Embedding solution-focused development into everyday conversations
• 28:21 - Applying Shift Positive to teams and collective development
• 30:46 - Turning feedback into shared responsibility
• 33:43 - Who gives HR the feedback it needs?
• 36:07 - Where to learn more about Shift Positive

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Peter Berridge: Shift Positive 360

Professor David Clutterbuck: LinkedIn Profile

Riddhika Khoosal: LinkedIn Profile

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Does the world need HR? Absolutely. Does it need HR in the way it exists today? Probably not.

In this episode of the Systemic Talent Management Podcast, Professor David Clutterbuck and Riddhika Khoosal are joined by Dr. Dieter Veldsman, Chief HR Scientist at the Academy to Innovate HR (AIHR), to explore why traditional HR models are struggling to keep pace with an increasingly complex, interconnected and AI-enabled world of work, and why HR may be facing an identity crisis of its own.

Dieter identifies three critical areas for HR to rethink: mandate, operating model and capabilities. They explore why HR needs to move beyond a linear, process-driven mindset, operate as an integrated line of business, and become clearer about the unique contribution it brings to organisational decision-making.

The conversation also looks at how HR can help organisations navigate AI, redesign work around human and technological capabilities, and build responsible governance for the future.

About Our Guest

Dr. Dieter Veldsman is Chief HR Scientist at the Academy to Innovate HR (AIHR) and Professor of Practice in HR and Organisational Behaviour at the University of Johannesburg. An organisational psychologist, researcher, author and former CHRO, his work focuses on strategic HR, organisational design, talent management and the future of work. He is co-author of Work for Humans: Building Sustainable Employee Experience Strategies.

Episode Soundbite

“Does the world need HR? I would say absolutely. If you ask me the follow-up question, does the world need HR in the way and the shape and the form that it is today? Then I would say probably not.”

- Dr. Dieter Veldsman

Timestamps

00:00 - Episode preview: The deep impact of HR beyond standardised processes

01:06 - Welcome and guest introduction: Dr. Dieter Veldsman

01:28 - Dieter's journey: Psychology, consulting, tech, and academia

03:30 - The three critical areas for HR: Mandate, operating model, and capabilities

06:20 - Historical context: Is the HR value gap a new phenomenon?

08:44 - HR's identity crisis: Redefining its contribution

12:18 - Learning what to let go: Why HR can't be everything to everyone

14:42 - Moving from linear process mindsets to systemic thinking

18:52 - What does an organisation actually lose if HR disappears?

20:50 - Claiming space at the table and embedding HR into the business model

24:07 - Running HR as an end-to-end line of business

26:22 - Designing HR around employee needs and experience

28:58 - AI, transparency, work design, and governance

34:25 - Closing advice: Owning HR's unique contribution

Follow and Listen

Dr. Dieter Veldsman: LinkedIn Profile

Professor David Clutterbuck: LinkedIn Profile

Riddhika Khoosal: LinkedIn Profile

Subscribe: New episodes released fortnightly. Subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts.

In a world that has grown complex, human, and deeply unpredictable, why are most organisations still running on linear HR models? In this introductory episode, co-hosts Professor David Clutterbuck and Riddhika Khoosal launch The Systemic Talent Management Podcast to address the fundamental gap between static corporate processes and complex organisational reality. Unpacking the limits of command-and-control leadership, how quick-fix cultures stall real progress, and why HR must step up to educate decision-makers to view the organisation systemically, David and Riddhika set the stage for an evidence-based journey toward making organisations more agile, transparent, and human-centered.

EPISODE SOUNDBITE:

"[HR] must become the educators of the organisation so that the system becomes transparent to those who have the influence to make it different." — David Clutterbuck

TIMESTAMPS:

• 00:00 - Episode preview: Rethinking HR’s role: Becoming system educators
• 00:50 - Why the podcast is called Systemic Talent Management
• 01:39 - David's 50-year question: why the wrong people get to the top
• 02:57 - Introducing Professor David Clutterbuck
• 04:27 - Introducing Riddhika Khoosal
• 05:27 - What still frustrates David most about talent management
• 06:34 - How quick-fix cultures stall real progress
• 07:46 - Linear vs. systemic thinking (the "teams of teams" exercise)
• 09:25 - How HR can educate decision-makers to view and transform the system
• 11:08 - Navigating workplace disruption with a systemic lens
• 12:19 - Moving beyond command-and-control to develop systemic capability
• 14:04 - Closing thoughts on our evidence-based approach

FOLLOW & LISTEN:

• Professor David Clutterbuck: LinkedIn Profile
• Riddhika Khoosal: LinkedIn Profile
• Subscribe: New episodes released fortnightly. Subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts.

Most organisations don't struggle to develop people because they don't care. They struggle because the systems they're relying on were never designed for the complexity of human beings.

Hosted by Professor David Clutterbuck and Riddhika Khoosal, this podcast explores a different way of thinking about leadership, talent, learning, teams, and the future of work.

Drawing on decades of research, systems thinking, and conversations with pioneering thinkers, we examine the gap between the linear models many organisations still rely on and the complex, deeply human reality of how work actually happens.

If you're ready to challenge conventional thinking and explore what it really takes to build organisations that are not only more effective, but better for the people within them and the purpose they serve, you're in the right place.

Subscribe and join the conversation.