The Trending Communicator

When a company buys the licenses, posts the training videos, schedules a few lunch-and-learns, and then waits for productivity to show up, who is actually responsible for redesigning the jobs themselves? In a lot of organizations, the answer turns out to be the small group of employees who figure it out on their own, while everyone else tries the new tool once (maybe twice) and goes back to the way things were.

Cali Williams Yost, CEO and founder of Flex+Strategy Group, has seen this pattern before. She watched leaders try to rebuild their organizations after COVID with a return-to-office email, and she sees AI rollouts making the same move with a bigger price tag. PwC's latest workforce survey counts just 14% of employees as AI "front-runners," and Cali's concern is everyone else: the people who need someone to show them how AI fits the job they actually do.

Cali walks through her four phases of change (assess, align, activate, and review and revise), where communicators belong in each, and why communications can support a transformation but can't stand in for the work underneath it. She and Dan get into the jagged gap between what AI could do and what it's doing inside real companies, a proposal to keep pre-retirees on as domain-expertise mentors for new grads, and why leaders have such a hard time describing a change that's still in progress. Along the way, Cali tells the story of finding her own books in an AI training dataset, and how that discovery led to the walled-off AI system she and Dan built when she was his client, so she could take her body of work back.

Listen in and hear about...

• Why Cali compares today's AI rollouts to return-to-office mandates sent by email
• Her four phases for AI transformation: assess, align, activate, and review and revise
• The jagged gap between AI's theoretical potential and real-world use, and what it means for promises leaders already made
• Where communicators fit in each phase, and why comms can support change but can't carry it alone
• Keeping pre-retirees on as domain-expertise mentors for new grads learning to work with AI
• How Cali turned the discovery of her scraped books into a private AI system built on her own work

Notable Quotes from Cali Williams Yost

"I'm gonna steal back my stuff. If my stuff's being stolen, that's only a small portion of what I've created. What if there was a way for me to harness all my stuff safely and in my own space and harness that?" - Cali Williams Yost [06:35 → 07:19]

"We have got to grab those people and we have got to ask them before they walk out the door, say, hey, do you want to keep working for us for like two, three days a week in this capacity of mentor to these young people? Domain expertise mentor." - Cali Williams Yost [17:39 → 18:26]

"We are still running off of playbooks from 1987 in a 2026 world. The world of work has changed. We have to define new models." - Cali Williams Yost [19:50 → 20:46]

"You cannot reconstruct the parameters of a new work model, which is essentially what it is. It's the framework, it is the foundation. It is the architecture, Dan, within which your whole organization is going to operate within. You do not create that with an email." - Cali Williams Yost [28:41 → 29:34]

"Implementation of AI in the real world, outside of the lab is jagged, very jagged. And so we let that sort of IT technology story lead the story." - Cali Williams Yost [31:03 → 32:49]

"At each step of the way, communications is so key. But they're not leading the change. They're engaged in supporting the change and helping to drive it." - Cali Williams Yost [38:30 → 39:22]

"It really is a wholesale reimagining of the work model that we keep not wanting to do. Because this is what I keep hearing that takes a lot of time, that takes a lot of effort. And I'm like, but this, what we're doing right now takes way more time." - Cali Williams Yost [53:01 → 53:49]

"These are people who understand the way things have been done in the past can no longer guide the organization. Things have to change. They tend to be people who are willing to hold the space for change." - Cali Williams Yost [1:01:18 → 1:01:43]

Resources and Links

Dan Nestle

• The Trending Communicator | Website
• Communications Trends from Trending Communicators | Dan Nestle's Substack
• Dan Nestle | LinkedIn
• Lilypath | Website
• Inquisitive Communications | Website

Cali Williams Yost

• Flex+Strategy Group | Website
• Cali Williams Yost | LinkedIn
• Tweak It: Make What Matters to You Happen Every Day | Book
• Work+Life: Finding the Fit That's Right for You | Book

Research discussed in this episode

• What's Your Company's Emergency Remote-Work Plan? | Cali Williams Yost, Harvard Business Review, February 28, 2020
• Companies risk losing their most AI-savvy employees while leaving majority behind | PwC 2026 Global Workforce Hopes and Fears Survey
• Labor market impacts of AI: A new measure and early evidence | Anthropic, March 2026
• The Great Mismatch: How a Shrinking Workforce, AI, and Labor Reallocation Will Define the Next 15 Years | Indeed Hiring Lab, May 2026

Timestamps

0:00 Intro: why AI transformation is a work transformation

3:24 Cali joins, and how she and Dan first met

5:42 Finding her books in an AI training dataset

8:34 Building a walled-off AI system from her own body of work

10:57 PwC's 14% front-runners and the limits of lunch-and-learns

13:46 Who becomes the AI guide inside an organization?

16:14 Can front-runner know-how transfer to everyone else?

17:39 Pre-retirees as domain-expertise mentors for new grads

19:15 Why being digitally native doesn't translate to AI

24:34 Japan's shrinking workforce and middle managers walking out

26:33 Context, over-explaining, and why it helps with AI

28:22 Return-to-office by email: the mistake leaders made

29:59 Phase one: assess

31:03 The jagged gap between AI's potential and real use

33:09 Overpromised productivity and performative AI use

36:41 Phase two: align around one narrative

37:29 Agentic AI and the surprise token bill

40:57 Telling the stories of the people already succeeding

44:04 Phase three: activate, and why adults learn by doing

46:26 Phase four: review and revise

49:28 Rethinking how, when, and where work gets done

55:06 Why organizations struggle with change in the progressive tense

56:44 The three streams of AI innovation inside a company

1:01:04 The leader profile that makes transformation work

1:05:07 Ingenuity, displacement, and the new work nobody can see yet

1:07:32 Jagged adoption and a shrinking workforce

1:10:12 Work + life fit, not balance

1:10:50 Where to find Cali

About The Trending Communicator

The Trending Communicator is a podcast about the future of communications and marketing, hosted by Dan Nestle. Each episode is a conversation with a communicator, marketer, author, or technologist about how the work is changing and what that means for the people doing it. The show launched in 2020 as The Dan Nestle Show and has published more than 150 episodes.

About the Host

Dan Nestle (Daniel Nestle) is a communications strategist with more than 25 years of experience, including 16 years in Japan. He is co-founder and Chief Product & Intelligence Officer of Lilypath, the company behind the patent-pending Authority Intelligence™ platform, and founder and Chief Curiosity Officer of Inquisitive Communications, a strategic advisory practice. He received the 2022 Arthur W. Page Society Page Up Innovation Award, was named a PRWeek Dashboard 25 AI Pioneer in 2023 and 2024, and was named one of Propel's 100 Most Influential PR Tech Leaders Worldwide in 2025.

Connect with Dan

The Trending Communicator: https://trendingcommunicator.com
Substack: https://trendingcommunicator.substack.com
LinkedIn: https://linkedin.com/in/nestle
Lilypath: https://lilypath.com
Inquisitive Communications: https://be-inquisitive.com
Instagram: https://instagram.com/trendingcommunicator

Show notes for The Trending Communicator are co-created by Human Dan, Claude, and Fireflies.

Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See https://pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

What if the phrase that makes so many of us wince was misunderstood from the start? For most people who use it, "thought leader" describes an output: a book, a keynote, a byline, a line item in somebody's content plan. Rarely does anyone ask what it takes for an idea to leave its author's hands and keep moving on its own.

Bill Sherman, COO of Thought Leadership Leverage and lead author of The Thought Leadership Handbook, has built his practice around that question. His definition starts with scale: thought leadership is how you take an idea to the people it's meant for, often without any positional authority, so that they understand it, apply it, and share it.

Dan and Bill work through the Four Elements and the Impact Equation, a multiplicative formula in which any factor sliding toward zero drags your impact down with it. Along the way, Bill tells how Keith Ferrazzi became "the networking guy" almost by accident, why every idea needs a brand of its own (or it clings to yours like a toddler learning to walk), and why the best thought leadership eventually makes its author irrelevant to how far the idea travels. They also get into the in-house expert, the gap between a content strategy and a person who actually wants to say the thing a thousand times, and the question Bill thinks every expert should answer before going public: why share your ideas with strangers at all?

Listen in and hear about...

• How Bill defines thought leadership, and why it so often works without positional authority
• The Four Elements: core ideas, content library, market offerings, and platform identity
• Why an idea needs a brand separate from the person or company behind it
• What Keith Ferrazzi's accidental bestseller reveals about demand you never planned for
• The Impact Equation: idea simplicity × audience relevance × velocity × share of target audience
• Why a target audience in the thousands beats one the size of the planet

Notable Quotes from Bill Sherman

"How do you take an idea to make it relevant to an audience so that they understand it, apply it and share it. That's the work of thought leadership." - Bill Sherman [05:24 → 05:39]

"If you don't have that energy, you can't fake it. And you're going to have that burr under the saddle every time you talk about it to an audience." - Bill Sherman [24:22 → 24:38]

"If an idea doesn't have a brand, it's not easy to transmit, then the idea is going to latch on either to the corporate brand or the personal brand that it's closest to, and it's going to cling like a toddler holding your knee while learning to walk." - Bill Sherman [34:45 → 35:58]

"I argue that the goal of good thought leadership is to make the individual irrelevant to the ability of the ideas to travel." - Bill Sherman [36:50 → 38:19]

"Thought leadership is deeply irrelevant to 99.99% of the world." - Bill Sherman [52:57 → 55:03]

Resources and Links

Dan Nestle

• The Trending Communicator
• Communications Trends from Trending Communicators (Substack)
• Dan Nestle on LinkedIn
• Lilypath
• Inquisitive Communications

Bill Sherman

• Bill Sherman (Aha Moments)
• Bill Sherman on LinkedIn
• Thought Leadership Leverage
• Leveraging Thought Leadership podcast

The Thought Leadership Handbook

• The Thought Leadership Handbook
• Bill's frameworks: the Four Elements, the Impact Equation, the Five Avatars, and more
• The Thought Leadership Handbook digital tools and worksheets

Timestamps

[00:00] Why being called a thought leader feels icky

[03:13] The ick factor and imposter syndrome among experts

[04:35] Bill's definition: taking ideas to scale, often without positional authority

[06:32] Can a brand be a thought leader?

[08:04] From organizational development to thought leadership

[09:17] The head of revenue whose book created demand he never planned for

[11:41] Thought leadership as a checklist, and early confusion over "leadership of thought"

[15:23] How an Inc. magazine tip request became Keith Ferrazzi's Never Eat Alone

[21:43] When the market knows you for something you didn't choose

[24:52] "Make me a thought leader." On what?

[26:53] Codifying the ideas behind a runaway bestseller

[28:57] Sorting ideas as an in-house expert

[31:54] The Four Elements of thought leadership

[34:45] Why ideas need a brand separate from the person or company

[36:50] Making the individual irrelevant to how far an idea travels

[42:06] Gini Dietrich and the PESO model

[44:46] The perfectionism trap

[47:22] The duty to speak and what motivates thought leaders

[49:28] Lisa Bodell's day in Athens and why experts share ideas with strangers

[51:53] The Impact Equation

[56:16] Share of target audience: getting down to names

[01:01:00] The five avatars of thought leadership

[01:04:55] Moving thought leadership from punchline to discipline

About The Trending Communicator

The Trending Communicator is a podcast about the future of communications and marketing, hosted by Dan Nestle. Each episode is a conversation with a communicator, marketer, author, or technologist about how the work is changing and what that means for the people doing it. The show launched in 2020 as The Dan Nestle Show and has published more than 150 episodes.

About the Host

Dan Nestle (Daniel Nestle) is a communications strategist with more than 25 years of experience, including 16 years in Japan. He is co-founder and Chief Product & Intelligence Officer of Lilypath, the company behind the patent-pending Authority Intelligence™ platform, and founder and Chief Curiosity Officer of Inquisitive Communications, a strategic advisory practice. He received the 2022 Arthur W. Page Society Page Up Innovation Award, was named a PRWeek Dashboard 25 AI Pioneer in 2023 and 2024, and was named one of Propel's 100 Most Influential PR Tech Leaders Worldwide in 2025.

Connect with Dan

The Trending Communicator: https://trendingcommunicator.com
Substack: https://trendingcommunicator.substack.com
LinkedIn: https://linkedin.com/in/nestle
Lilypath: https://lilypath.com
Inquisitive Communications: https://be-inquisitive.com
Instagram: https://instagram.com/trendingcommunicator

Show notes for The Trending Communicator are co-created by Human Dan, Claude, and Fireflies.

Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See https://pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

What happens to a customer's words between the research readout and the campaign launch? Usually they survive in meaning and die in language. Every review cycle sands off a little more of the emotion that made the insight worth having, until the market no longer recognizes itself in what comes back.

In this episode of The Trending Communicator, Dan Nestle welcomes back Dr. Matt Wilkinson, founder and CEO of Strivenn and author of The Buyer in the Loop. Matt's answer is the grounded synthetic customer: an AI representation built from a company's own interviews, CRM data, sales transcripts, and social listening that stays with the work from inception to launch and can trace every recommendation back to the evidence behind it.

From there, the conversation turns to why an "act as" prompt can't stand in for real customer knowledge, and to the book cover Matt tested on a synthetic panel and on LinkedIn at the same time. Matt is candid about where synthetic customers stumble, with a Montblanc pen and New Coke along the way, and he closes with how communicators can build personas for investors and even the lobby groups working against them. He also makes the case that all of this should send teams back to their real customers more often.

Listen in and hear about...

• Why organizational gravity can't be fixed one department at a time
• The difference between a one-page persona, an "act as" prompt, and a grounded synthetic customer
• How a synthetic panel and a LinkedIn poll split the same way on three book covers, then agreed on a fourth
• Why the half-life of customer research is shrinking in the era of zero-click search
• Where synthetic customers break down, from temporal drift to pricing and emotion
• How communicators can model investors, stakeholders, and opposition groups before a message goes out

Notable Quotes from Matt

"The ability to create stuff, everybody has it now, but the ability to understand your customer is one of the few things that really sets us apart." - Dr. Matt Wilkinson [06:05 → 06:54]

"Does the customer really care that you've been in business 20 years? Yes, they want a reliable partner to work with, but actually they probably want to know, what have you actually done for the industry? What have you changed? What problems have you solved?" - Dr. Matt Wilkinson [13:20 → 13:52]

"The thing about the grounding is it's twofold. One, that it is grounded in evidence, but secondly, it's grounded in your evidence. And that's where the real moat comes in." - Dr. Matt Wilkinson [29:53 → 30:33]

"It gives marketers the ability to start pointing at evidence rather than their gut feelings, because gut feelings are really hard to defend." - Dr. Matt Wilkinson [31:22 → 32:03]

"Why would you spend five, six, seven figures on customer insight when all you're going to do is turn it into a report, share it, have a couple of meetings about it and then forget it?" - Dr. Matt Wilkinson [44:05 → 44:24]

"People spend hundreds of dollars on buying a Montblanc pen. It performs the same service as a Bic Biro that maybe costs a dollar... The difference is how it makes you feel and how other people might perceive you using it." - Dr. Matt Wilkinson [47:39 → 49:27]

Resources and Links

Dr. Matt Wilkinson

• Strivenn
• https://drmattwilkinson.ai/
• LinkedIn
• The Buyer in the Loop: How Synthetic Customers Stop Your Buyer Disappearing Between Research and Market

Mentioned in this episode

• You're the Top of the AI Sandwich - with Brian Piper and Matt Wilkinson
• Jim MacLeod, designer of the book cover

Timestamps

[00:00] Why many hands make flat work in comms and marketing

[02:54] Matt returns to the show

[04:24] The fireworks lecture that doubled undergraduate chemistry recruitment

[06:05] When anyone can create, understanding the customer is the edge

[07:18] Research-backed messaging that falls flat in the market

[09:13] Organizational gravity as a force of nature, not a department problem

[10:20] Naming the problem, and why good strategy stalls inside the organization

[10:58] Building synthetic customers from everything you know about your buyers

[12:20] Carrying the customer from inception to launch, and weighing legal's edits

[13:20] The heritage line: what customers actually want to hear about longevity

[17:27] Why "act as" prompts fall short

[18:56] The persona spectrum, from one-page profiles to grounded synthetic customers

[20:35] The persona workshop flip charts nobody ever sees again

[22:24] Using AI to build customer archetypes from data

[25:46] Backing up messaging decisions with 30 qualitative interviews

[28:34] What "grounded" means, and why it's a moat

[32:30] Testing the book cover on a synthetic panel and on LinkedIn

[39:48] Organizational gravity as Steven Pressfield's resistance

[40:49] Grounding as onboarding for AI models

[43:13] Zero-click search and the shrinking half-life of customer research

[46:15] Where synthetic customers break: temporal drift and knowledge gaps

[47:39] Why synthetic customers struggle with pricing

[52:28] Can synthetic personas model emotion? New Coke and asking the wrong questions

[57:02] Where communicators start: investors, stakeholders, and lobby groups as personas

[59:00] Wrap-up

About The Trending Communicator

The Trending Communicator is a podcast about the future of communications and marketing, hosted by Dan Nestle. Each episode is a conversation with a communicator, marketer, author, or technologist about how the work is changing and what that means for the people doing it. The show launched in 2020 as The Dan Nestle Show and has published more than 150 episodes.

About the Host

Dan Nestle (Daniel Nestle) is a communications strategist with more than 25 years of experience, including 16 years in Japan. He is co-founder and Chief Product & Intelligence Officer of Lilypath, the company behind the patent-pending Authority Intelligence™ platform, and founder and Chief Curiosity Officer of Inquisitive Communications, a strategic advisory practice. He received the 2022 Arthur W. Page Society Page Up Innovation Award, was named a PRWeek Dashboard 25 AI Pioneer in 2023 and 2024, and was named one of Propel's 100 Most Influential PR Tech Leaders Worldwide in 2025.

Connect with Dan

The Trending Communicator: https://trendingcommunicator.com
Substack: https://trendingcommunicator.substack.com
LinkedIn: https://linkedin.com/in/nestle
Lilypath: https://lilypath.com
Inquisitive Communications: https://be-inquisitive.com
Instagram: https://instagram.com/trendingcommunicator

Show notes for The Trending Communicator are co-created by Human Dan, Claude, and Fireflies.

Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See https://pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Try this at your next industry conference: ask a communicator when they last looked at a piece of work and said "that was good," and stopped there. No "but."

Chances are you'll get a blank stare, because we spend our careers making CEOs, brands, and clients look great, and somewhere along the way we started grading ourselves on the same curve: great work, great campaigns, the trophy wall. And now that AI has turned "do more with less" into "do everything by end of day," nobody seems to have paused to ask what "more" actually means, or who decided that good wasn't enough.

In this episode of The Trending Communicator, Dan Nestle talks with Heather A. Campbell, author ofGood Is Amazing: Stop Over-Striving and Celebrate Being Enough and CEO and co-founder ofReady Set Recover. Heather's argument is simple and, for a room full of overachievers, a little uncomfortable: we've maligned the word good, we treat it as code for "do better," and the main character of your life (that's you) gets to decide what good is.

The conversation ranges from the grandfather at Harley-Davidson who taught Heather how to move an audience without a title, to the phone call from her mom that ended with a request to become President of the United States, to the McKinsey interview she turned down before it happened. Along the way, Dan and Heather land on why AI-written prose so often reads as "asshole adjacent" (her developmental editor's phrase, and a keeper), why "don't let perfect be the enemy of good" is something we say and never do, and what it means to name your inner critic (hers is called Blanche).

Listen in and hear about...

• Why the question "so what are you going to do after graduation?" sounds like judgment, and how to answer it on your own terms
• The moment Heather decided her only career goal was to be happy, healthy, and good
• Turning down a McKinsey interview, and what a shaky lump of clay on a pottery wheel had to do with it
• Why "don't let perfect be the enemy of good" fails when your actions ask for four more revisions
• What AI is doing to our perception of good and great, and why the output so often sounds like a jerk
• Blanche, the inner critic, and the three small things that make you happy

Notable Quotes

"The problem with the question though is it sounds like judgment and it doesn't sound like a question. It sounds like, prove to me that you are actually going to be able to be successful." - Heather Campbell [11:33 → 12:19]

"We've maligned the word good. We think of good as bad." - Heather Campbell [30:16 → 30:32]

"What if no one else was looking, if no one else was ever going to ask about it, praise you, or if no one else cared? Do you still care about it? Because if not, maybe it's not your thing." - Heather Campbell [32:39 → 32:54]

"In some ways, it doesn't matter if you've reached good or if you've reached amazing. If you're not happy with it, if you're not comfortable with it, if you always think there's more, it doesn't matter." - Heather Campbell [42:51 → 43:27]

"AI is a tool. It's a tool. But you don't have to just relinquish your ability. You're good communicators, people. You guys do this for a living. People pay you money to do this." - Heather Campbell [01:02:23 → 01:03:24]

Resources and Links

Dan Nestle

• Lilypath | Website
• The Trending Communicator | Website
• Communications Trends from Trending Communicators | Dan Nestle's Substack
• Dan Nestle | LinkedIn

Heather A. Campbell

• Heather A. Campbell | Website
• Heather A. Campbell | LinkedIn
• Ready Set Recover | Website
• Good Is Amazing: Stop Over-Striving and Celebrate Being Enough | Amazon

Timestamps

[00:15] The cost of "great" and perfectionism in communications

[02:00] Heather's background at ESPN building the Synergy team

[08:29] Heather's epiphany: choosing happiness over greatness

[11:02] The loaded question young graduates face

[17:20] Non-linear career path and following values

[18:36] Husband quits job to pursue entrepreneurship

[24:01] Going to NYU business school and the pottery essay

[27:17] Taking classes based on interest, not grades

[28:01] Getting rejected letter from NYU, switching to management major

[30:15] Redefining what "good" actually means

[36:58] Turning down McKinsey offer

[42:25] Confidence and self-awareness as keys to accepting "good enough"

[50:07] Naming your inner critic (Blanche)

[53:28] Direct response ad example: white space strategy

[56:50] AI-generated content sounds "asshole adjacent"

[01:00:08] AI as a tool, not a replacement for judgment

[01:02:24] Final advice: Own your narrative, define your own "good"

[01:03:56] Three things that make you happy framework

[01:07:17] Book and resources information

(Notes co-created by Human Dan, Claude, and Fireflies)

About The Trending Communicator

The Trending Communicator is a podcast about the future of communications and marketing, hosted by Dan Nestle. Each episode is a conversation with a communicator, marketer, author, or technologist about how the work is changing and what that means for the people doing it. The show launched in 2020 as The Dan Nestle Show and has published more than 150 episodes.

About the Host

Dan Nestle (Daniel Nestle) is a communications strategist with more than 25 years of experience, including 16 years in Japan. He is co-founder and Chief Product & Intelligence Officer of Lilypath, the company behind the patent-pending Authority Intelligence™ platform, and founder and Chief Curiosity Officer of Inquisitive Communications, a strategic advisory practice. He received the 2022 Arthur W. Page Society Page Up Innovation Award, was named a PRWeek Dashboard 25 AI Pioneer in 2023 and 2024, and was named one of Propel's 100 Most Influential PR Tech Leaders Worldwide in 2025.

Connect with Dan

The Trending Communicator: https://trendingcommunicator.com
Substack: https://trendingcommunicator.substack.com
LinkedIn: https://linkedin.com/in/nestle
Lilypath: https://lilypath.com
Inquisitive Communications: https://be-inquisitive.com
Instagram: https://instagram.com/trendingcommunicator

Show notes for The Trending Communicator are co-created by Human Dan, Claude, and Fireflies.

Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See https://pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Who handles generative engine optimization for you? Not for your company - for you. A brand has an answer to that question: a team, a vendor, a budget line, a dashboard somebody checks on Mondays. A person usually has nobody at all, and the tools that do exist were built to read websites, which turns out to be a thin substitute for a career.

In this episode of The Trending Communicator, host Dan Nestle sits down with his own business partner, Erin Lanuti, co-founder and CEO of Lilypath and former Chief Innovation Officer at Omnicom Public Relations Group. Erin spent two decades building the measurement and AI search machinery that tells systems how to read brands, and kept running into the same asymmetry: companies have infrastructure to govern how they get interpreted, and individuals have nothing close to it. Authority Intelligence(TM) is the discipline she, Dan, and Todd Grossman built for the second problem.

The conversation moves from measuring earned media without a pixel to why she started digging into generative engine optimization roughly nine months before the industry had a name for it. What follows is Erin's case for why the individual version of that problem needs its own tools, and why the damage stays invisible to the person it's happening to. It ends on the question Erin says she hears from clients more than any other right now, which is whether they need their agency at all.

Listen in and hear about:

• Why GEO tooling built for brands doesn't do the job when the subject is a person rather than a website
• Why an authority built for human audiences doesn't carry over to a machine one, and what has to be rebuilt from scratch
• How Conversation2Commerce and OmniearnedID measured earned media without a pixel, and why impressions survived anyway
• The Tide Pod scenario that turned AI search from a marketing question into a legal and reputational one
• What happens to earned citations when the outlets that produce them keep shutting down
• The value question clients are now asking their agencies out loud

Notable Quotes from Erin

"I keep saying measurement needs an intervention. It does, because we have better tech than we've ever had. And the consumer journey has changed. And we have to ask ourselves why. Why are we measuring that? What's the importance of that metric? Is that still true today?"

"Help me understand how, in a world where advertising budgets are getting cut to these publications and we're losing tons of earned media outlets every day, in this new world of GEO, when earned is more important than ever, if they're all shutting down, how are we going to get those earned citations?"

"As we look at some of the most respected people in the world that we've been doing some analyses on, these people should be perfect in the AI system. And they're far from perfect."

"There are people that have way less authority but know how to game the system. They know that if they assemble a clear picture around a topic, clear, concise, consistent, that their authority in the eyes of a machine can be perceived higher than people who without question have higher status or stature."

Resources and Links

Dan Nestle

• Lilypath | Website
• Inquisitive Communications | Website
• The Trending Communicator | Website
• Communications Trends from Trending Communicators | Dan Nestle's Substack
• Dan Nestle | LinkedIn

Erin Lanuti

• Erin B. Lanuti | LinkedIn
• Lilypath | Website
• Erin Lanuti | Website

Timestamps

[00:00] Introduction and Host Principles

[00:35] Meeting Erin Lanuti - Business Partner Introduction

[06:10] Erin's Career Origin Story - Burson and Colgate

[07:43] Bell South Olympic Sponsorship and Early Success

[08:07] Move to MSL and P&G's New to the World Initiative

[08:50] Pioneering Entertainment Marketing with Jessica Simpson and Swiffer

[11:12] Transition to Agency Leadership and UL (Underwriters Laboratory)

[12:51] Creating Innovative Campaigns - White House Christmas Tree and Muppets

[13:30] Developing Conversation to Commerce Technology

[17:21] The Problem with Traditional PR Metrics (Impressions and AVE)

[19:40] Omni Earned ID - Moving Beyond Vanity Metrics

[23:24] Understanding AI Search and Reputational Risk

[28:40] Erin's Non-Linear Career Path and Early AI Research

[30:04] The Tide Pod Problem - AI Generating Dangerous Information

[33:39] Building Integrated Marketing Solutions for AI Era

[38:34] Citations Over Traditional Top-Tier Outlets

[43:04] Introducing Authority Graph for Personal Authority Management

[49:45] Personal Branding Reset in the AI Era

[54:48] The Threat - Lower-Authority People Gaming the System

[58:21] Individual vs. Brand Reputation Management

[01:03:30] Agency Value Proposition Crisis and Repositioning Opportunity

[01:08:46] Closing Remarks and Where to Find Erin

(Notes co-created by Human Dan, Claude, Fireflies, and Riverside)

About The Trending Communicator

The Trending Communicator is a podcast about the future of communications and marketing, hosted by Dan Nestle. Each episode is a conversation with a communicator, marketer, author, or technologist about how the work is changing and what that means for the people doing it. The show launched in 2020 as The Dan Nestle Show and has published more than 150 episodes.

About the Host

Dan Nestle (Daniel Nestle) is a communications strategist with more than 25 years of experience, including 16 years in Japan. He is co-founder and Chief Product & Intelligence Officer of Lilypath, the company behind the patent-pending Authority Intelligence™ platform, and founder and Chief Curiosity Officer of Inquisitive Communications, a strategic advisory practice. He received the 2022 Arthur W. Page Society Page Up Innovation Award, was named a PRWeek Dashboard 25 AI Pioneer in 2023 and 2024, and was named one of Propel's 100 Most Influential PR Tech Leaders Worldwide in 2025.

Connect with Dan

The Trending Communicator: https://trendingcommunicator.com
Substack: https://trendingcommunicator.substack.com
LinkedIn: https://linkedin.com/in/nestle
Lilypath: https://lilypath.com
Inquisitive Communications: https://be-inquisitive.com
Instagram: https://instagram.com/trendingcommunicator

Show notes for The Trending Communicator are co-created by Human Dan, Claude, and Fireflies.

Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See https://pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Somewhere along the way, PR research came to mean a survey reverse-engineered to confirm whatever the client had already decided to say. Real research, the slow and expensive kind, stayed with the academics, because nobody on the agency or client side had the hours. So what happens when the cost of doing it right collapses?

In this episode of The Trending Communicator, host Dan Nestle sits down with Rich Gallagher, Head of Comms Innovation at Brands2Life, whose answer to that question was to write the code himself. Each of his research reports started as something close to a dare — watch a month of business television, read every business-section story in three national papers, listen to a year of back catalog across 96 podcasts — and each came back with a number worth having, like the 12% of those shows actually built for the privately held companies his clients run.

That method is the easy part to admire and the wrong part to copy, and the conversation goes well past it. Rich and Dan get into why curiosity has always been the one non-negotiable trait in a good PR person, and why for the first time there's something like a metric for it. They work through The Rise of Indie Journalism, Rich's study of 32 tech journalists who walked away from traditional mastheads and took their audiences with them. They dig into why generative engine optimization is quietly making niche trade coverage more valuable than a one-line mention in a marquee outlet, and what media relations turns into when it stops being a tier-one scavenger hunt. Rich also shares the app his team built to score World Cup managers on how hard they lean on clichés, and the uncomfortable pattern it surfaced about losing coaches.

Listen in and hear about...

• Making AI watch a month of business television through closed captions
• The 96-show podcast audit and why only 12% were worth a pitch
• The Rise of Indie Journalism: 32 reporters, portable audiences, and the opportunity most brands are ignoring
• Why curiosity finally has something resembling a measurement
• How GEO is lifting niche and vertical media over marquee one-liners
• What clichés in a post-match press conference reveal about crisis response

Notable Quotes from Rich Gallagher

"You watch every single hour of market-day television on the three major business broadcast networks for a month? Like, no, of course not. That's like a Geneva Convention violation to force someone to do that. But now we have tools. You can scrape the closed caption for the hearing impaired and effectively make the AI watch the show." [07:16 → 08:01]

"The challenge is you can't read everything all the time. But what if you could? And now that you have AI, you can. We can analyze all these things at a scale that doesn't exist even inside a very big agency, where you can not only make sure you're reading every single business section story that runs that quarter, but reading it with the same eyes." [33:06 → 33:47]

"The most important thing for a successful PR person is curiosity. Really being genuinely interested in uncovering what's special about what your clients do. And it's kind of funny, because there's never really been a good metric for curiosity, and now we have it." [40:38 → 41:26]

"I don't necessarily subscribe to 'media relations is dead.' But it kind of goes into a chrysalis and emerges as a beautiful butterfly every couple of years." [52:46 → 53:27]

Resources and Links

Dan Nestle

• Lilypath | Website
• The Trending Communicator | Website
• Communications Trends from Trending Communicators | Dan Nestle's Substack
• Dan Nestle | LinkedIn

Rich Gallagher

• Brands2Life | Website
• Rich Gallagher | LinkedIn
• Princeton Narrative Lab | Website
• Expected Cliche Tracker | Website

The Brands2Life Research Reports

• The Tech Podcast Opportunity for Privately Held Companies
• Breaking Through in Broadcast
• The Rise of Indie Journalism

Timestamps

0:00 Intro: real research and its counterfeit cousin

2:33 Two nerds, two girl dads, one Princeton zip code

4:16 The ADP employment report and data a company already had

5:33 Moat, ad spend, and the run-up to 2016

7:16 "Make the AI watch the show" — Breaking Through in Broadcast

10:51 Predictive analytics the hard way: 150 hours, then 30 seconds

13:04 Why the AI policy came before the research

15:16 Three newspapers, three paywalls, three automations

15:57 Testing whether the AI actually read it

17:28 Podcast transcripts and the wild west of captions

19:56 Claude Code, Cowork, and what changed

22:53 Thirty sub-agents that never lose their place

26:06 Where deep research helps and where it stops

29:09 The Tech Podcast Opportunity: 96 shows and the 12% that mattered

31:32 Where the questions come from in the first place

38:13 The human-in-the-loop sandwich

40:38 Curiosity as the differentiator — and finally a metric

43:19 The Rise of Indie Journalism: Substack, Ghost, and Beehiiv

46:20 Velvet Underground economics and portable audiences

49:00 Media relations, dying or molting

55:27 Why GEO makes vertical media solid gold

59:17 Authority when the entity is a person, not a website

1:01:46 The cliché tracker, hot IPO summer, and what's next

1:05:04 Where to find Rich

(Notes co-created by Human Dan, Claude, Fireflies, and Riverside)

About The Trending Communicator

The Trending Communicator is a podcast about the future of communications and marketing, hosted by Dan Nestle. Each episode is a conversation with a communicator, marketer, author, or technologist about how the work is changing and what that means for the people doing it. The show launched in 2020 as The Dan Nestle Show and has published more than 150 episodes.

About the Host

Dan Nestle (Daniel Nestle) is a communications strategist with more than 25 years of experience, including 16 years in Japan. He is co-founder and Chief Product & Intelligence Officer of Lilypath, the company behind the patent-pending Authority Intelligence™ platform, and founder and Chief Curiosity Officer of Inquisitive Communications, a strategic advisory practice. He received the 2022 Arthur W. Page Society Page Up Innovation Award, was named a PRWeek Dashboard 25 AI Pioneer in 2023 and 2024, and was named one of Propel's 100 Most Influential PR Tech Leaders Worldwide in 2025.

Connect with Dan

The Trending Communicator: https://trendingcommunicator.com
Substack: https://trendingcommunicator.substack.com
LinkedIn: https://linkedin.com/in/nestle
Lilypath: https://lilypath.com
Inquisitive Communications: https://be-inquisitive.com
Instagram: https://instagram.com/trendingcommunicator

Show notes for The Trending Communicator are co-created by Human Dan, Claude, and Fireflies.

Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See https://pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Can you build word of mouth on purpose?

Few people are better equipped to answer it than Sarah Neely. She's spent two decades engineering the conversations most brands just hope will happen by accident, and she's now the founder of SignalSwell, built to make human word of mouth "audible" to AI. She also leads client strategy at Fizz, one of the few agencies built entirely around getting people to talk. Her premise runs against everything a virality-obsessed business wants to believe: advocates are a personality type you can plan for, and the right story dropped in the right place does the rest.

In this episode of The Trending Communicator, host Dan Nestle and Sarah dig into what "story" actually means at the level of a single human conversation, the shorthand one person uses to describe you to someone else. They get into why a cactus at a wedding travels further than a logo, how Red Bull carries the same story from an F1 helmet to a truck stop, and the SHARE framework Sarah uses to build experiences worth repeating.

Then the conversation turns to AI. If the machines increasingly decide which conversations get surfaced, communicators have to make human word of mouth visible to them, on the channels that actually feed the models. It's a practical problem with a strange philosophical center. Maybe human conversation isn't competing with AI at all. Maybe it's the operating system AI runs on.

Listen in and hear about...

• Why word of mouth can be engineered on purpose, and why "organic" is a misleading word for it
• The SHARE framework for creating experiences worth talking about
• What "story" means at the level of a single human conversation, versus a mission statement or value prop
• Making human conversations discoverable to AI, and which channels actually feed the LLMs
• Why human conversation may be the operating system AI depends on to stay relevant

Notable Quotes from Sarah Neely

"The story is that sort of shorthand way that one person would describe a product, a brand, an experience to another person." - Sarah Neely

"If you take all the colors that are in your paint kit, you're going to make something that's brown or gray. It has nothing interesting to look at. And that's what chat is doing." - Sarah Neely

"You need to create signals for humans and AI, and then you need to swell that footprint through human conversation at scale." - Sarah Neely

"The purpose is to remind me to ask more questions, remind me to explore on my own, and remind me to bring it up in a human conversation if it feels relevant." - Sarah Neely

Resources and Links

Dan Nestle

• Lilypath | Website
• The Trending Communicator | Website
• Communications Trends from Trending Communicators | Dan Nestle's Substack
• Dan Nestle | LinkedIn

Sarah Neely

• SignalSwell | Website
• Fizz | Website
• Sarah Neely | LinkedIn

Timestamps

[00:00 - 03:00] Introduction to Word of Mouth Marketing

[03:00 - 09:32] Community and AI Curiosity

[09:32 - 15:58] Word of Mouth as Wedding Planning

[15:58 - 19:49] Defining the Story in Word of Mouth

[19:49 - 24:30] Value Proposition vs Conversational Story

[24:30 - 28:35] SHARE Framework for Story Moments

[28:35 - 30:07] Marketing and PR Collaboration

[30:07 - 35:15] Red Bull Case Study

[35:15 - 43:20] AI Visibility of Human Conversations

[43:20 - 50:22] Social Media vs Word of Mouth Marketing

[50:22 - 53:44] Key Channels for AI Discovery

[53:44 - 56:46] Owned Content Importance

[56:46 - 01:02:24] Human Conversation as AI Foundation

[01:02:24 - 01:04:07] Introduction to Signal Swell

[01:04:07 - 01:10:58] Holistic Approach: The Five C's

[01:10:58 - 01:13:04] Closing Recommendations

(Notes co-created by Human Dan, Claude, Fireflies, and Riverside)

About The Trending Communicator

The Trending Communicator is a podcast about the future of communications and marketing, hosted by Dan Nestle. Each episode is a conversation with a communicator, marketer, author, or technologist about how the work is changing and what that means for the people doing it. The show launched in 2020 as The Dan Nestle Show and has published more than 150 episodes.

About the Host

Dan Nestle (Daniel Nestle) is a communications strategist with more than 25 years of experience, including 16 years in Japan. He is co-founder and Chief Product & Intelligence Officer of Lilypath, the company behind the patent-pending Authority Intelligence™ platform, and founder and Chief Curiosity Officer of Inquisitive Communications, a strategic advisory practice. He received the 2022 Arthur W. Page Society Page Up Innovation Award, was named a PRWeek Dashboard 25 AI Pioneer in 2023 and 2024, and was named one of Propel's 100 Most Influential PR Tech Leaders Worldwide in 2025.

Connect with Dan

The Trending Communicator: https://trendingcommunicator.com
Substack: https://trendingcommunicator.substack.com
LinkedIn: https://linkedin.com/in/nestle
Lilypath: https://lilypath.com
Inquisitive Communications: https://be-inquisitive.com
Instagram: https://instagram.com/trendingcommunicator

Show notes for The Trending Communicator are co-created by Human Dan, Claude, and Fireflies.

Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See https://pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

If AI writes a better prompt than you can now, what are you still being paid for?

In this episode of The Trending Communicator, host Dan Nestle is joined by two of his closest collaborators, Brian Piper, content and AI integration consultant and co-author of Epic Content Marketing Volume 2, and Dr. Matt Wilkinson, founder of UK agency Strivennand author of the forthcoming Buyer in the Loop. A month earlier, the three shared a stage at Mark Schaefer's Uprisingretreat, building one marketing plan together, each orchestrating their own team of AI helpers to pull it off.

Their answer to the question above is discernment. The AI handles the prompting now and most of the drafting. What it can't do is know when an output is wrong, when a claim is weak, when "good enough" isn't. That judgment comes from years of doing the work, and it's the one thing you bring to the machine that the machine can't supply for itself.

The same idea runs through everything else they get into: why enterprise AI rollouts keep stalling, why "saving time" never seems to free anyone up, and why the white-collar-apocalypse story makes better clickbait than it does prediction.

Listen in and hear about...

• Why discernment, not prompting, is the skill that holds its value in the AI era
• What actually went into co-building a campaign live at Mark Schaefer's Uprising retreat
• The change-management gap behind most failed enterprise AI rollouts
• Why "AI will take your job" is quietly sabotaging adoption from the inside
• How going solo became more connected, not more lonely

Notable Quotes from Brian Piper and Matt Wilkinson

"I think where it really excels is when you tie in expertise, you know, and you talked about building that discernment into the prompt and into the structure of your models that you're using." - Brian Piper

"We have this extra time that AI has given us. Now the really strategic part is figuring out how you're going to use that time and how you're going to spend that time in a way that benefits your organization the most or benefits your customer the most." - Brian Piper

"Otherwise the world is just going to be full of AI slop. But we can really use AI to increase the way that we think, the way that we engage with the information that we have." - Matt Wilkinson

"There is no incentive to work with the AI to teach the AI to take over the tasks that you're doing, because then the AI can take your job. So why are you training up your replacement?" - Matt Wilkinson

"I felt lonelier working at an organization than I did now that I'm on my own." - Brian Piper

Resources and Links

Dan Nestle

• Lilypath | Website
• The Trending Communicator | Website
• Communications Trends from Trending Communicators | Dan Nestle's Substack
• Dan Nestle | LinkedIn

Matt Wilkinson

• Strivenn | Website
• Dr. Matt Wilkinson | Website
• Matt Wilkinson | LinkedIn

Brian Piper

• Brian W. Piper | Website (speaking and books)
• AIreFlow Solutions | Website
• Brian Piper | LinkedIn

Timestamps

00:00 Navigating Job Loss and New Beginnings

03:01 The Power of Collaboration in Solopreneurship

05:40 The Unique Experience of the Uprising Retreat

11:48 AI Beyond the Prompt: A New Approach

20:34 The Importance of Mindset and Discernment in AI

30:22 Operationalizing Expertise and Discernment

38:46 Merging Human Insight with AI

40:40 The Compounding Effect of Collaboration

42:09 Understanding AI Governance and Implementation

44:45 Strategic Use of AI Time Savings

46:49 The Myth of Time Freedom with AI

48:43 The Disconnect in AI Adoption

49:07 Building a Community for AI Success

50:05 The Importance of Change Management

52:33 The Reality of AI's Impact on Jobs

54:02 Navigating Job Evolution in the AI Era

56:26 Responsible AI Integration

58:16 The Role of Education in AI Adaptation

01:01:12 The Future of Job Markets and Education

01:04:19 Teaching Prompting for AI

01:07:32 Creating a New Educational Framework

01:10:00 The Solopreneur Experience

01:12:20 The Loneliness Myth in Entrepreneurship

01:15:20 The Human Element in AI Conversations

(Notes co-created by Human Dan, Claude, and Riverside)

About The Trending Communicator

The Trending Communicator is a podcast about the future of communications and marketing, hosted by Dan Nestle. Each episode is a conversation with a communicator, marketer, author, or technologist about how the work is changing and what that means for the people doing it. The show launched in 2020 as The Dan Nestle Show and has published more than 150 episodes.

About the Host

Dan Nestle (Daniel Nestle) is a communications strategist with more than 25 years of experience, including 16 years in Japan. He is co-founder and Chief Product & Intelligence Officer of Lilypath, the company behind the patent-pending Authority Intelligence™ platform, and founder and Chief Curiosity Officer of Inquisitive Communications, a strategic advisory practice. He received the 2022 Arthur W. Page Society Page Up Innovation Award, was named a PRWeek Dashboard 25 AI Pioneer in 2023 and 2024, and was named one of Propel's 100 Most Influential PR Tech Leaders Worldwide in 2025.

Connect with Dan

The Trending Communicator: https://trendingcommunicator.com
Substack: https://trendingcommunicator.substack.com
LinkedIn: https://linkedin.com/in/nestle
Lilypath: https://lilypath.com
Inquisitive Communications: https://be-inquisitive.com
Instagram: https://instagram.com/trendingcommunicator

Show notes for The Trending Communicator are co-created by Human Dan, Claude, and Fireflies.

Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See https://pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Plenty of companies have bolted AI onto how they already work and called it transformation. Far fewer have rebuilt the business around it.

In this episode of The Trending Communicator, host Dan Nestle talks with Brian McHale, CEO and owner of Brandience, who bought a struggling traditional ad agency back in 2008 and spent the better part of two decades quietly rebuilding it around AI. His shop now runs eight AI agents for every human employee, cut prospect research from 45 minutes to under 10, and was among the first agencies in the country to earn AI ethics certification. And he did all of it from Cincinnati, not Silicon Valley—which might be exactly why it works.

This isn't a story about swapping people for machines. Brian's approach is AI Forward, not AI First: humans stay at the center, and AI makes them better at what they already do. He and Dan get into the unglamorous reality of transformation that actually works—why ambiguity is the biggest source of AI mistakes, how guardrails free people to experiment rather than fence them in, why a leader's job has moved upstream in the content process, and what it means to know when to call a timeout. As Brian puts it, judgment only comes with experience.

They also dig into agents and playbooks (and why a playbook is really just a workflow with an agent for each step), the internal bonus program that tied every employee to an AI project and delivered the best ROI Brandience has seen on anything, and the client conversations nobody saw coming—not "please use more AI," but "can I actually own this?"

It's a grounded, refreshingly hype-free look at what rebuilding a business around AI looks like from the inside.

Listen in and hear about...

• How "AI Forward, not AI First" keeps humans at the center of the work
• Why transparency and ethics certification became guardrails, not just signals
• The shift that moves a leader's role upstream in the content process
• Building playbooks out of single-step agents—and where to start
• Why experienced people know when to step in (and when to call a timeout)

Notable Quotes from Brian McHale

On keeping humans central: "Humans are at the center of everything we're doing still."

"The first word that comes to mind for me is just transparency. Because using AI or not using AI either way is just fine."

"If you don't know when to say when or when to call a timeout, which frankly really only comes with experience, then you're kind of crossing your fingers and hoping that the tool does what you want it to do."

"My goal in life is not to have Brandiance be me sitting there with 50 agents. That sounds terrible."

Resources and Links

Dan Nestle

• Lilypath | Website
• The Trending Communicator | Website
• Communications Trends from Trending Communicators | Dan Nestle's Substack
• Dan Nestle | LinkedIn

Brian McHale

• Brandience | Website
• Go Beyond | Podcast
• Brian McHale | LinkedIn

Timestamps

0:00:00 Host's skepticism on "transformation" and intro to Brian McHale
0:06:00 Brandiance's transformation: AI-forward, industry focus, balancing tech and people
0:12:00 Navigating regulations, ethics, and AI adoption in healthcare and marketing
0:18:00 Ethics in AI: transparency, authenticity, and employee guardrails
0:24:00 Leadership responsibility: upstream involvement and AI policy guardrails
0:30:00 AI operator training, evolving skills, and workplace adoption challenges
0:36:00 Playbooks and agents: Brandiance's approach to AI workflows
0:42:00 Agentic tools, Claude Cowork, and collaborative design system workflows
0:48:00 Client expectations, ownership, and business implications of AI in agency work
0:54:00 Governance challenges, AI engagement incentives, and employee-driven innovation
1:00:00 Staffing, layoffs, overreaction to AI, and the value of experience in the AI era
1:06:00 Closing remarks, where to find Brian McHale, show wrap-up

(Notes co-created by Human Dan, Claude, and Castmagic)

About The Trending Communicator

The Trending Communicator is a podcast about the future of communications and marketing, hosted by Dan Nestle. Each episode is a conversation with a communicator, marketer, author, or technologist about how the work is changing and what that means for the people doing it. The show launched in 2020 as The Dan Nestle Show and has published more than 150 episodes.

About the Host

Dan Nestle (Daniel Nestle) is a communications strategist with more than 25 years of experience, including 16 years in Japan. He is co-founder and Chief Product & Intelligence Officer of Lilypath, the company behind the patent-pending Authority Intelligence™ platform, and founder and Chief Curiosity Officer of Inquisitive Communications, a strategic advisory practice. He received the 2022 Arthur W. Page Society Page Up Innovation Award, was named a PRWeek Dashboard 25 AI Pioneer in 2023 and 2024, and was named one of Propel's 100 Most Influential PR Tech Leaders Worldwide in 2025.

Connect with Dan

The Trending Communicator: https://trendingcommunicator.com
Substack: https://trendingcommunicator.substack.com
LinkedIn: https://linkedin.com/in/nestle
Lilypath: https://lilypath.com
Inquisitive Communications: https://be-inquisitive.com
Instagram: https://instagram.com/trendingcommunicator

Show notes for The Trending Communicator are co-created by Human Dan, Claude, and Fireflies.

Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See https://pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Authenticity might be the most abused word in business today. Every AI tool promises to preserve it. Every leadership guru sells it as a brand pillar. And the more it gets thrown around, the less it actually means.

In this episode of The Trending Communicator, host Dan Nestle sits down with Allison Shapira — founder and CEO of Global Public Speaking, Harvard Kennedy School lecturer, regular HBR contributor, and author of AI for the Authentic Leader: How to Communicate More Effectively Without Losing Your Humanity. Allison went from the opera stage to the corridors of diplomacy, eventually building a global communication training company that now coaches prime ministers, cabinet members, and Fortune 100 executives in their highest-stakes moments.

Allison and Dan dig into what authenticity actually means when AI can draft your speech in seconds, why generic AI output is quietly eroding trust between leaders and the teams they lead, and how the AI Authenticity Loop gives communicators a practical way to use these tools without flattening their voice. Along the way, they explore why live speaking might be the last place left to be certain a human is being human — and why the choices we make about AI in the next three years will determine whether it brings us together or pulls us apart.

Listen in and hear about...

• Strategic authenticity, and why "rolling out of bed without brushing your teeth" doesn't count
• The ACE model — authenticity, clarity, and energy — as the foundation of leadership voice
• What new research reveals about how AI overuse erodes trust between leaders and teams
• The five-step AI Authenticity Loop and what "starts with you" actually means
• Behavioral training, not technical training, as the real key to AI adoption
• Why leaders need to be vulnerable about their AI use before their teams will trust them

Notable Quotes from Allison Shapira

"This is not about keeping the human in the loop. As I say in my book, the human IS the loop."

"It would be rude to ask a human for feedback when you haven't asked an AI first because it would be a waste of the human's time."

"The decisions we make in the next three years will determine where AI goes. Whether it brings us together, builds trust, whether it pushes us apart and isolates us even further."

Resources and Links

Dan Nestle

• Lilypath | Website
• Inquisitive Communications | Website
• The Trending Communicator | Website
• Communications Trends from Trending Communicators | Dan Nestle's Substack
• Dan Nestle | LinkedIn

Allison Shapira

• Global Public Speaking | Website
• AI for the Authentic Leader | Book
• Allison Shapira | LinkedIn

Timestamps

0:00:00 Introduction: Authenticity, leadership, and guest Allison Shapira
0:06:18 Allison Shapira’s journey: From opera to diplomacy and communication
0:12:29 Defining effective leadership communication and the ACE model
0:18:20 AI's impact on human connection and the risks to authentic communication
0:24:01 Strategic authenticity: Aligning personal and organizational values
0:31:07 How AI undermines trust when misused in corporate messaging
0:37:21 Human vs. AI knowledge: Authenticity and lived experience
0:43:50 Dangers of outsourcing critical thinking to AI and accountability
0:50:01 The AI Authenticity Loop: Five-step framework explained
0:57:25 Importance of feedback and critical engagement with AI tools
1:01:49 Final thoughts: Shaping the future of AI, authenticity, and leadership

(Notes co-created by Human Dan, Claude, and Castmagic)

About The Trending Communicator

The Trending Communicator is a podcast about the future of communications and marketing, hosted by Dan Nestle. Each episode is a conversation with a communicator, marketer, author, or technologist about how the work is changing and what that means for the people doing it. The show launched in 2020 as The Dan Nestle Show and has published more than 150 episodes.

About the Host

Dan Nestle (Daniel Nestle) is a communications strategist with more than 25 years of experience, including 16 years in Japan. He is co-founder and Chief Product & Intelligence Officer of Lilypath, the company behind the patent-pending Authority Intelligence™ platform, and founder and Chief Curiosity Officer of Inquisitive Communications, a strategic advisory practice. He received the 2022 Arthur W. Page Society Page Up Innovation Award, was named a PRWeek Dashboard 25 AI Pioneer in 2023 and 2024, and was named one of Propel's 100 Most Influential PR Tech Leaders Worldwide in 2025.

Connect with Dan

The Trending Communicator: https://trendingcommunicator.com
Substack: https://trendingcommunicator.substack.com
LinkedIn: https://linkedin.com/in/nestle
Lilypath: https://lilypath.com
Inquisitive Communications: https://be-inquisitive.com
Instagram: https://instagram.com/trendingcommunicator

Show notes for The Trending Communicator are co-created by Human Dan, Claude, and Fireflies.

Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See https://pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Companies are racing to stuff AI into everything. They're also throwing away the only thing that would make their AI actually useful. Decades of institutional memory, hard-won lessons, the stories baked into the bones of the organization, all left in a box labeled "archive" and forgotten. Then everyone wonders why the LLM keeps hallucinating.

In this episode of The Trending Communicator, host Dan Nestle sits down with Jason Dressel, CEO of History Factory and host of the History Factory Podcast. Jason came up inside one company, learned the craft from its founder, and eventually succeeded him. He's spent the better part of three decades helping the world's most enduring enterprises turn their history into a competitive asset, and just launched Chroniqle, a first-of-its-kind AI platform built to make institutional memory live, citable, and useful for the AI era.

Jason and Dan dig into why "garbage in, garbage out" is the real ceiling for enterprise AI, why ripping out expertise and replacing it with machines is the most expensive mistake leaders are making right now, and why the companies that win the next decade will be the ones that stay tethered to who they are — even as everything else changes.

Listen in and hear about...

• Why "history" is the wrong word, and what changes the moment you replace it with "experience"
• The trap of sameness at scale, and how AI is accelerating commoditization across the enterprise landscape
• Why CEOs are typically the easiest leaders to convince that institutional memory matters
• How Chroniqle works differently from a custom GPT or an internal chatbot, and why structured archival data outperforms scraped web content
• What it actually takes to make decades of corporate archives readable, accurate, and useful to AI

Notable Quotes

"The more intelligent and data rich we get, the more illiterate we become. We are about to go through a hyper scaled phase of sameness and commoditization at scale." - Jason Dressel

"The organizations that think they're going to dramatically remove expertise and institutional knowledge and replace it with machines, I think it's going to be incredibly short sighted." - Jason Dressel

"If you replace the word history with experience, it's interpreted in a completely different context. Organizations that are able to continue to access their memory, their experience, are going to wield it to differentiate." - Jason Dressel

Resources and Links

Dan Nestle

• Lilypath | Website
• Inquisitive Communications | Website
• The Trending Communicator | Website
• Communications Trends from Trending Communicators | Dan Nestle's Substack
• Dan Nestle | LinkedIn

Jason Dressel

• History Factory | historyfactory.com
• Chroniqle by History Factory
• The History Factory Podcast
• Jason Dressel | LinkedIn

Timestamps

0:00:00 Introduction: Forgetting Institutional Memory in the AI Rush
0:06:00 History Factory’s “Start with the Future and Work Back” Philosophy
0:12:00 Sifting Historical Archives: Golden Nuggets & Strategic Relevance
0:18:00 What Triggers Companies to Act on Institutional Memory
0:24:00 When Organizational History Challenges Brand Identity
0:30:00 Change Management, Employee Identity, and Brand Transformation
0:36:00 From Analog to Digital: Evolution of Corporate Archives
0:42:00 The Need for Clean, Contextual Data in AI & Introduction to Chronicle
0:48:00 Chronicle Use Cases: From Social Content to Strategic Planning
0:54:00 The Future of Institutional Memory: Avoiding Sameness & Staying Tethered
1:00:00 Does Deep History Give Organizations a Competitive Advantage?
1:06:00 Individual vs. Company Expertise: Domain, Experience, and Wisdom

(Notes co-created by Human Dan, Claude, and Castmagic)

About The Trending Communicator

The Trending Communicator is a podcast about the future of communications and marketing, hosted by Dan Nestle. Each episode is a conversation with a communicator, marketer, author, or technologist about how the work is changing and what that means for the people doing it. The show launched in 2020 as The Dan Nestle Show and has published more than 150 episodes.

About the Host

Dan Nestle (Daniel Nestle) is a communications strategist with more than 25 years of experience, including 16 years in Japan. He is co-founder and Chief Product & Intelligence Officer of Lilypath, the company behind the patent-pending Authority Intelligence™ platform, and founder and Chief Curiosity Officer of Inquisitive Communications, a strategic advisory practice. He received the 2022 Arthur W. Page Society Page Up Innovation Award, was named a PRWeek Dashboard 25 AI Pioneer in 2023 and 2024, and was named one of Propel's 100 Most Influential PR Tech Leaders Worldwide in 2025.

Connect with Dan

The Trending Communicator: https://trendingcommunicator.com
Substack: https://trendingcommunicator.substack.com
LinkedIn: https://linkedin.com/in/nestle
Lilypath: https://lilypath.com
Inquisitive Communications: https://be-inquisitive.com
Instagram: https://instagram.com/trendingcommunicator

Show notes for The Trending Communicator are co-created by Human Dan, Claude, and Fireflies.

Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See https://pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

The story you've been told about your aging brain is wrong. Strategic attention peaks in your late 50s. Innovative cognition in your early 60s. Integrative reasoning around 62. Meanwhile, AI keeps commoditizing the very capabilities younger workers were supposed to dominate — speed, information processing, rapid adaptation. The math has shifted. Human judgment, the thing the midlife brain actually does best, may be the last unfair advantage left.

In this episode of The Trending Communicator, host Dan Nestle welcomes back Dr. Michael Netzley, founder and CEO of Extend My Runway, faculty at IMD and Korn Ferry, and author of the Substack Thrive After 45. Five years after their first conversation about neuroplasticity and the executive brain, Michael returns with new evidence, sharper tools, and a clearer argument — the cognitive abilities AI cannot replicate are exactly the ones that strengthen with age, if you make the investments.

Dan and Michael unpack why AI takes the execution but leaves the questions and the judgment, why transformational thinking may be the platinum cognitive skill of the AI era, and the stark choice between offloading your brain and sharpening it. They get into Janus, Mark Schaefer, brain health fundamentals, neurodiversity, and why the survivors of this moment will be the ones who stop competing with AI on its strongest ground.

Listen in and hear about...

• Why different cognitive abilities peak in midlife and what that means for AI-era careers
• The three-part work model — question, execution, evaluation — and where human value now lives
• Transformational thinking, neuroplasticity, and the zoom in / zoom out / zoom wide framework
• Why brain health fundamentals — sleep, exercise, monotasking — are non-negotiable
• The identity shift from leader to senior advisor, and what midlife professionals get wrong about reinvention

Notable Quotes from Michael Netzley

"Your adult brain is your last unfair advantage in the age of AI. And if you optimize these midlife strengths by making investments, you can do the things that AI cannot."

"Transformational thinking is your platinum cognitive function. Because if you cannot do that sequence of zoom in, zoom out, zoom wide, you literally become irrelevant."

"AI is probably not going to make you dumber, but the choices you make definitely can."

Resources and Links

Dan Nestle

• Lilypath | Website
• The Trending Communicator | Website
• Communications Trends from Trending Communicators | Dan Nestle's Substack
• Dan Nestle | LinkedIn

Dr. Michael Netzley

• Extend My Runway | Website
• Thrive After 45 | Substack
• Dr. Michael Netzley | LinkedIn

Timestamps

0:00:00 Introduction: Revisiting aging brain myths and the rise of AI

0:06:36 AI and midlife cognitive strengths: Thriving after 45

0:12:24 AI’s impact on communicators: Shifting value to judgment and creativity

0:18:51 AI prompts, creativity backlash, and evolving skillsets

0:25:36 Cognitive offload, adaptability, and career phase challenges in the AI era

0:32:17 Developing curiosity and transformational thinking at any age

0:39:33 Cognitive overload, judgment, and building personal content systems

0:46:40 Transformational thinking, portfolio careers, and identity shifts

0:53:06 Brain health foundations and practical brain training for higher-order skills

0:58:46 Neurodiversity, novelty, and finding fulfillment through varied roles

1:05:21 Senior roles, independence, and the evolving definition of success

1:09:01 The “year of the oops”: AI layoffs, organizational knowledge, and future-proofing careers

1:11:04 Closing remarks and resources

(Notes co-created by Human Dan, Claude, and Castmagic)

About The Trending Communicator

The Trending Communicator is a podcast about the future of communications and marketing, hosted by Dan Nestle. Each episode is a conversation with a communicator, marketer, author, or technologist about how the work is changing and what that means for the people doing it. The show launched in 2020 as The Dan Nestle Show and has published more than 150 episodes.

About the Host

Dan Nestle (Daniel Nestle) is a communications strategist with more than 25 years of experience, including 16 years in Japan. He is co-founder and Chief Product & Intelligence Officer of Lilypath, the company behind the patent-pending Authority Intelligence™ platform, and founder and Chief Curiosity Officer of Inquisitive Communications, a strategic advisory practice. He received the 2022 Arthur W. Page Society Page Up Innovation Award, was named a PRWeek Dashboard 25 AI Pioneer in 2023 and 2024, and was named one of Propel's 100 Most Influential PR Tech Leaders Worldwide in 2025.

Connect with Dan

The Trending Communicator: https://trendingcommunicator.com
Substack: https://trendingcommunicator.substack.com
LinkedIn: https://linkedin.com/in/nestle
Lilypath: https://lilypath.com
Inquisitive Communications: https://be-inquisitive.com
Instagram: https://instagram.com/trendingcommunicator

Show notes for The Trending Communicator are co-created by Human Dan, Claude, and Fireflies.

Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See https://pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

AI transformation isn't a strategy problem. It's a leadership problem. And until CEOs and boards stop asking for an AI strategy and start asking for a change management strategy, most organizations are going to keep spinning their wheels.

In this episode of The Trending Communicator, host Dan Nestle sits down with Bo Breuklander, founder of Breuklander Communications, ProSci-certified change practitioner, and professor of PR and media writing at the University of Tampa. Bo spent 16 years in corporate communications, led digital communications at Jabil, moved into VP-level transformation work, and now runs People First AI workshops that document 100% confidence increases among participants.

Dan and Bo get into why the comfortability gap matters more than the skills gap, what happens when people in the room are too afraid to admit they're already using AI, and why communicators are uniquely positioned to lead organizational AI transformation rather than waiting for IT to hand them a playbook.

Listen in and hear about...

• Why random acts of AI are the new random acts of content and equally ineffective
• The explainability problem and why it connects directly to critical thinking in the classroom
• How to find your AI champions and ambassadors inside existing teams
• What entrepreneurial thinking actually looks like as a survival strategy for knowledge workers
• Why $20 a month might be the most important career investment a communicator can make right now

Notable Quotes from Bo Breuklander

"You have to ask people how they feel about it. And you have to listen to what they tell you."

"Your job is not necessarily your value. I think it's really important for students to hear that, for younger professionals, for older professionals, for all of us."

"Slow down enough to get the functional and the foundations right. Clarity is going to beat speed. Judgment is the new advantage."

Resources and Links

Dan Nestle

• Lilypath | Website
• The Trending Communicator | Website
• Communications Trends from Trending Communicators | Dan Nestle's Substack
• Dan Nestle | LinkedIn

Bo Breuklander

• Breuklander Communications | Website
• The AI Comms Lab | Substack
• Bo Breuklander | LinkedIn

Timestamps

0:00:00 Introduction: AI Transformation & Leadership Challenges
0:05:48 [Speaker B]'s AI Journey & Focus at Brooklander Communications
0:11:22 Addressing Human Factors in AI Workshops
0:17:22 Individualized Nature of AI Adoption
0:21:22 Students, Employees, and the Hidden Use of AI
0:27:01 Are “AI Natives” Ready? Skills vs. Comfort
0:34:11 Explainability, Critical Thinking, and Fact-Checking in AI Use
0:42:08 Navigating Job Disruption and Entrepreneurial Mindset
0:47:42 Practical Steps for Comms Pros: Quick Wins & Automation
0:53:57 Using Prompting Frameworks and Moving to Advanced AI Use
1:00:16 Investing in AI Learning—No Room for Victimhood
1:07:22 Closing Advice: Slow Down, Clarity and Judgment as Advantages

(Notes co-created by Human Dan, Claude, and Castmagic)

About The Trending Communicator

The Trending Communicator is a podcast about the future of communications and marketing, hosted by Dan Nestle. Each episode is a conversation with a communicator, marketer, author, or technologist about how the work is changing and what that means for the people doing it. The show launched in 2020 as The Dan Nestle Show and has published more than 150 episodes.

About the Host

Dan Nestle (Daniel Nestle) is a communications strategist with more than 25 years of experience, including 16 years in Japan. He is co-founder and Chief Product & Intelligence Officer of Lilypath, the company behind the patent-pending Authority Intelligence™ platform, and founder and Chief Curiosity Officer of Inquisitive Communications, a strategic advisory practice. He received the 2022 Arthur W. Page Society Page Up Innovation Award, was named a PRWeek Dashboard 25 AI Pioneer in 2023 and 2024, and was named one of Propel's 100 Most Influential PR Tech Leaders Worldwide in 2025.

Connect with Dan

The Trending Communicator: https://trendingcommunicator.com
Substack: https://trendingcommunicator.substack.com
LinkedIn: https://linkedin.com/in/nestle
Lilypath: https://lilypath.com
Inquisitive Communications: https://be-inquisitive.com
Instagram: https://instagram.com/trendingcommunicator

Show notes for The Trending Communicator are co-created by Human Dan, Claude, and Fireflies.

Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See https://pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

You don't roll out AI. It's not an ERP system. And yet most organizations are still treating it like a procurement decision, reaching for governance frameworks and compliance checklists as if the real challenge is containment rather than comprehension.

In this episode of The Trending Communicator, host Dan Nestle sits down with Alec Crawford, founder and CEO of Artificial Intelligence Risk Incorporated and host of the AI Risk Reward podcast. Alec built neural networks at Harvard in 1987, spent 30 years on Wall Street as a risk officer managing hundreds of billions, and now builds AI governance, risk, compliance, and cybersecurity platforms.

Alec and Dan dig into what risk actually looks like when every employee has access to intelligence, why the crisis playbook most companies rely on is already obsolete, and how deepfake threats and shadow AI are reshaping the landscape for communicators and executives alike.

Listen in and hear about...

• Why domain expertise becomes more valuable, not less, in an AI-enabled organization
• The context window problem and what it means for accuracy and trust
• Shadow AI, jailbreak attacks, and the real cybersecurity threats facing companies
• How deepfakes are already being weaponized against executives and brands
• Why communicators need to become AI risk experts, not just AI users

Notable Quotes from Alec Crawford

"Once you understand that, aha, light bulb moment, you can't ask ChatGPT to check its work. Typically, you might go to another model and say, hey, here's what ChatGPT said. What do you think? But you can't ask a model to check its own work."

"The way to fix shadow AI is to give people at your company great AI that's better than they could get at home. The best models, connected to your corporate data, connected to your email, connected to anything you could dream you want to be connected to. Why would I now go use some other AI if I've got access to that?"

"At this point they probably need somewhere between five and 10 seconds of a video like this to create a deep fake where they can say whatever they want and make you say whatever they want."

Resources and Links

Dan Nestle

• Lilypath | Website
• The Trending Communicator | Website
• Communications Trends from Trending Communicators | Dan Nestle's Substack
• Dan Nestle | LinkedIn

Alec Crawford

• Artificial Intelligence Risk Incorporated (AIR) | Website
• AI Risk Reward Podcast
• AI Risk Reward | Substack
• Alec Crawford | LinkedIn

Timestamps

0:00:00 Opening & Introduction to Alec Crawford, AI Transformation Mistakes
0:07:13 AI Hallucinations, Research Pitfalls, and Due Diligence
0:12:35 Importance of Prompting, Domain Expertise & AI Iteration
0:18:32 Alec’s Journey: From Building Neural Nets to Institutional AI
0:24:18 Limits of Large Language Models, Explainability, and AI Sentience
0:29:04 Context Windows, Memory Limits, and AI Conversation Pitfalls
0:35:42 AI Safety, Prompt Injection, and Corporate Guardrails
0:41:09 Beating Shadow AI: Corporate AI Environments & User Adoption
0:45:55 AI Agents, Agentic Workflow, and Financial Services Applications
0:53:26 Crisis Communication in the AI Era: Risks & Recommendations
1:01:30 Future of AI Models, Deepfakes, and Validation Technology
1:05:39 Alec’s Book Announcement & Closing Remarks

(Notes co-created by Human Dan, Claude, and Castmagic)

About The Trending Communicator

The Trending Communicator is a podcast about the future of communications and marketing, hosted by Dan Nestle. Each episode is a conversation with a communicator, marketer, author, or technologist about how the work is changing and what that means for the people doing it. The show launched in 2020 as The Dan Nestle Show and has published more than 150 episodes.

About the Host

Dan Nestle (Daniel Nestle) is a communications strategist with more than 25 years of experience, including 16 years in Japan. He is co-founder and Chief Product & Intelligence Officer of Lilypath, the company behind the patent-pending Authority Intelligence™ platform, and founder and Chief Curiosity Officer of Inquisitive Communications, a strategic advisory practice. He received the 2022 Arthur W. Page Society Page Up Innovation Award, was named a PRWeek Dashboard 25 AI Pioneer in 2023 and 2024, and was named one of Propel's 100 Most Influential PR Tech Leaders Worldwide in 2025.

Connect with Dan

The Trending Communicator: https://trendingcommunicator.com
Substack: https://trendingcommunicator.substack.com
LinkedIn: https://linkedin.com/in/nestle
Lilypath: https://lilypath.com
Inquisitive Communications: https://be-inquisitive.com
Instagram: https://instagram.com/trendingcommunicator

Show notes for The Trending Communicator are co-created by Human Dan, Claude, and Fireflies.

Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See https://pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

People keep writing obituaries for organic content. And every time, communicators chase the paid shortcuts instead of doing the work. Now, as AI-generated content floods every platform, those who abandoned organic are realizing they have nothing to fall back on.

In this episode of The Trending Communicator, host Dan Nestle sits down with Dorien Morin-van Dam, owner of More in Media and host of the Strategy Talks podcast, to dig into whether an organic-first philosophy can survive the AI era. With over 15 years of experience in community building and social media strategy—plus an Agile Marketing certification—Dorien has spent her career defending organic content not as nostalgia, but as strategy.

From the early days of Facebook groups in Myrtle Beach to Reddit brand management and the community-first model flipping the old course-then-community approach on its head, Dorien and Dan explore what systematic approaches to content actually look like when everyone has access to the same generative tools. They dig into why brands that leaned too hard on AI are already feeling the reckoning, and why live content may be the last frontier that nobody can fake.

Listen in and hear about...

• Why community is the ultimate expression of organic strategy
• The shift from course-first to community-first business models
• How community content is reshaping brand reputation and AI search visibility
• Why live content is the new competitive moat against AI
• The difference between being creative and becoming a creator

Notable Quotes from Dorien Morin-van Dam

"Anything that you don't pay for is organic. So if you're still talking to people, organic is not dead."

"If you have a thought in your mind, you wake up at 4am and you think about something in your business—that is a LinkedIn post. That is something that AI can't do."

"Creating something because you think it's a good business opportunity—creating a community around that, it's going to tank because you're not authentic."

"That's the last frontier. You can't copy me live. You can make an AI avatar, but you're not going to have my thoughts live unless I'm there."

"The worst strategic mistake that you can make is trying to be something that you're not. And that's the downfall—we're seeing people using AI improperly, and it's all crumbling down."

Resources and Links

Dan Nestle

• Lilypath | Website
• The Trending Communicator | Website
• Communications Trends from Trending Communicators | Dan Nestle's Substack
• Dan Nestle | LinkedIn

Dorien Morin-van Dam

• More in Media | Website
• Strategy Talks | Podcast
• Dorien Morin-van Dam | LinkedIn

Timestamps

0:00:00 Organic Content’s “Death” and Industry Shifts
0:05:40 Early Days of Community Building and Facebook Groups
0:12:27 Reddit Community Management and Brand Authenticity
0:19:59 Evolution of Community Strategy and Content
0:24:47 Starting and Growing Communities: Goals & Authenticity
0:30:10 Brand Support, Community Catalysts, and Influencer Dynamics
0:36:27 Community vs Followers; PR, Marketing, and Strategy Integration
0:42:20 C-suite Ownership of Origin Story and Business Strategy
0:49:28 Connecting Community Leadership with Target Audience
0:56:08 Life Experience, Conflict Management, and Community Leadership
1:00:28 Human Creativity vs AI; Going Live and Authentic Engagement
1:06:40 Final Advice: Authenticity, Building Sustainable Communities

(Notes co-created by Human Dan, Claude, and Castmagic)

About The Trending Communicator

The Trending Communicator is a podcast about the future of communications and marketing, hosted by Dan Nestle. Each episode is a conversation with a communicator, marketer, author, or technologist about how the work is changing and what that means for the people doing it. The show launched in 2020 as The Dan Nestle Show and has published more than 150 episodes.

About the Host

Dan Nestle (Daniel Nestle) is a communications strategist with more than 25 years of experience, including 16 years in Japan. He is co-founder and Chief Product & Intelligence Officer of Lilypath, the company behind the patent-pending Authority Intelligence™ platform, and founder and Chief Curiosity Officer of Inquisitive Communications, a strategic advisory practice. He received the 2022 Arthur W. Page Society Page Up Innovation Award, was named a PRWeek Dashboard 25 AI Pioneer in 2023 and 2024, and was named one of Propel's 100 Most Influential PR Tech Leaders Worldwide in 2025.

Connect with Dan

The Trending Communicator: https://trendingcommunicator.com
Substack: https://trendingcommunicator.substack.com
LinkedIn: https://linkedin.com/in/nestle
Lilypath: https://lilypath.com
Inquisitive Communications: https://be-inquisitive.com
Instagram: https://instagram.com/trendingcommunicator

Show notes for The Trending Communicator are co-created by Human Dan, Claude, and Fireflies.

Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See https://pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Everyone thinks they can name things. Toss some words around in a brainstorm, pick the one that sounds right, hope it passes trademark. But naming done right is storytelling compressed to its most essential form, and getting it wrong costs more than most organizations want to admit.

In this episode of The Trending Communicator, host Dan Nestle reunites with Scott Milano, founder and managing director of Tanj, one of the world's top naming agencies, and the man who has named more than 1,000 brands generating trillions of global impressions. He also built ChatNamer, an AI naming assistant with thousands of monthly users, within months of ChatGPT's arrival, long before most people knew what to do with it.

Dan and Scott explore why naming belongs squarely in the communications conversation, not just the brand or marketing silo. They dig into the mechanics of encoding brand DNA into a single word, what happens when organizations get it catastrophically wrong, and why AI can accelerate the process without ever replacing the judgment that makes a name land.

Listen in and hear about...

• Why a great name is shorthand for an entire brand story
• The Apple vs. ExecuTech thought experiment
• The Jaguar rebrand: bold strategic pivot or brand homicide?
• How Ally Bank, Natural Bliss, and Prosperity Now demonstrate names that deliver long after launch
• Where AI genuinely helps in the naming process and where it reliably fails
• ChatNamer: what it is, why Scott built it, and what it's actually useful for

Notable Guest Quotes

"It is 100% storytelling. And if you get it right, you're basically encoding the DNA of the brand and like the core message of the brand right in the name." [00:08:52 – 00:09:06]

"The shortest poem is a name... some very deep significance [is] encoded in that word, whether it's a personal name or certainly in our case, a brand name." [00:10:35 – 00:10:56]

"Naming is as much about words as it is about people. It is a people sport." [00:49:59 – 00:50:05]

"The biggest takeaway... is to not underestimate the power of a name. It's fundamental. It's the tip of the spear for any conversation, any message, any communication..." [01:01:26 – 01:01:43]

Resources and Links

Dan Nestle

• Lilypath | Website
• The Trending Communicator | Website
• Communications Trends from Trending Communicators | Dan Nestle's Substack
• Dan Nestle | LinkedIn

Scott Milano

• Tanj | Website
• Tanj | Instagram
• Chatnamer | Website
• Scott Milano | LinkedIn

Timestamps

00:00 Naming: The Creative Job Everyone Thinks They Can Do

02:01 How Dan Got His Start in Naming (Thanks to Scott)

03:43 What’s Changed in Naming—and What Hasn’t

05:45 The Effort Behind Good Names (and Dan’s Sony “BIONZ” Win)

08:00 Is Naming Just Marketing? Why It’s Actually Storytelling

09:10 The Name as the DNA of Your Brand

11:14 The Psychological and Cultural Power of Names

13:19 When Naming Goes Wrong

15:29 What Customers Really Take Away from a Name

16:19 ExecuTech vs. Apple: Branding Near Misses

18:10 Apple, Nike, and the Stories Baked into Brands

22:22 How Top Agencies Build Brand Narratives

25:40 The Chicken-and-Egg Problem: Does Brand Grow Into Name or Vice Versa?

29:17 When Public Reaction to Names Goes Sideways (Nintendo Wii & More)

31:39 Brand Overhauls: The Jaguar Example

36:27 Brand Loyalty, Employee Buy-in & Naming Success Stories

41:06 Research, Creativity, and AI in the Naming Process

45:55 AI’s True Role: Springboard, Not Storyteller

48:32 Can AI Really Name Your Company? (Spoiler: Probably Not)

55:24 The Power of Good Questions in Naming With AI

58:29 Why Human Judgment Is Non-Negotiable for Brand Names

01:01:26 The Takeaway: Never Underestimate the Power of Naming

01:03:23 Where to Learn More (and Why Naming Experts Still Matter)

(Notes co-created by Human Dan, Claude, and Castmagic)

About The Trending Communicator

The Trending Communicator is a podcast about the future of communications and marketing, hosted by Dan Nestle. Each episode is a conversation with a communicator, marketer, author, or technologist about how the work is changing and what that means for the people doing it. The show launched in 2020 as The Dan Nestle Show and has published more than 150 episodes.

About the Host

Dan Nestle (Daniel Nestle) is a communications strategist with more than 25 years of experience, including 16 years in Japan. He is co-founder and Chief Product & Intelligence Officer of Lilypath, the company behind the patent-pending Authority Intelligence™ platform, and founder and Chief Curiosity Officer of Inquisitive Communications, a strategic advisory practice. He received the 2022 Arthur W. Page Society Page Up Innovation Award, was named a PRWeek Dashboard 25 AI Pioneer in 2023 and 2024, and was named one of Propel's 100 Most Influential PR Tech Leaders Worldwide in 2025.

Connect with Dan

The Trending Communicator: https://trendingcommunicator.com
Substack: https://trendingcommunicator.substack.com
LinkedIn: https://linkedin.com/in/nestle
Lilypath: https://lilypath.com
Inquisitive Communications: https://be-inquisitive.com
Instagram: https://instagram.com/trendingcommunicator

Show notes for The Trending Communicator are co-created by Human Dan, Claude, and Fireflies.

Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See https://pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Does PR have Stockholm syndrome? We're held captive by every disruption that promises to kill us—internet, social media, now AI—and what do we do? Fall in love with each threat, scramble to prove relevance, then wait for the next existential crisis.

In this episode, Dan Nestle sits down with Barrie Cohen, founder of Barrie Cohen Public Relations. The real evolution isn't technical—it's structural. While holding companies lay off hundreds, boutique firms are landing top-tier placements and major contracts. The question: do you need 50 people to do what one strategist with AI and the right relationships can accomplish?

Barrie walked away from Philadelphia agency life and built an operation that secured placements big firms couldn't—not by throwing bodies at accounts, but by doing what large agencies forgot: caring deeply and telling clients the truth.

Listen in and hear about...

• Why the traditional agency billing model creates misaligned incentives
• How podcast pitching is outperforming traditional media relations
• The tangible ROI clients are seeing from targeted podcast appearances
• What AI-driven pitching services get wrong about human judgment
• Building a boutique practice on transparency and flexibility
• Why the fight is real when you actually know your clients

Notable Quotes from Barrie Cohen

"PR needs to be accessible to everybody. Telling your story is critical no matter the size of your business." [00:22:51 – 00:22:57]

"I could write, and I'm a great communicator, and I know how to talk to people, and I'm honest and transparent. Everything else, like you said, I'll figure it out." [00:15:00 – 00:15:08]

"I am not worried it's going to take my job. No one can do what I—like, AI cannot be at the level with my clients that I am, but can they write me an outline for a three-page article and then I can do the bulk of—yes." [00:49:27 – 00:49:41]

Resources and Links

Dan Nestle

• Inquisitive Communications | Website
• The Trending Communicator | Website
• Communications Trends from Trending Communicators | Dan Nestle's Substack
• Dan Nestle | LinkedIn

Barrie Cohen

• Barrie Cohen Public Relations | Website
• Barrie Cohen | LinkedIn

Timestamps

0:00:00 Introduction: PR Industry Disruption, Agency Evolution, and Guest Intro
0:06:31 Denver Airport Metaphor—Is PR Built for Purpose?
0:12:35 Barrie Cohen's Journey: Breaking Away from Agency Traditions
0:18:02 Scaling a Boutique PR Business: Growth, Team, and Challenges
0:22:18 Rethinking the Traditional Agency Model and Flexible Client Engagements
0:28:17 Deep Client Relationships and the Value of Deliverables Over Hourly Billing
0:34:36 The Shift to Podcasts: Earning Attention in Modern Media Relations
0:41:33 Podcast Pitching: Personalized Approaches vs. AI Automation
0:48:12 AI Tools, Content Repurposing, and the Human Advantage in PR
0:54:09 PR: The Long Game—Managing Expectations in a Fast-Paced Tech World
1:00:57 Why Human Connections and Relationships Remain Essential in Communications
1:07:19 Looking Forward: Staying Current, Embracing Podcasts, and the Future of PR

(Notes co-created by Human Dan, Claude, and Castmagic)

About The Trending Communicator

The Trending Communicator is a podcast about the future of communications and marketing, hosted by Dan Nestle. Each episode is a conversation with a communicator, marketer, author, or technologist about how the work is changing and what that means for the people doing it. The show launched in 2020 as The Dan Nestle Show and has published more than 150 episodes.

About the Host

Dan Nestle (Daniel Nestle) is a communications strategist with more than 25 years of experience, including 16 years in Japan. He is co-founder and Chief Product & Intelligence Officer of Lilypath, the company behind the patent-pending Authority Intelligence™ platform, and founder and Chief Curiosity Officer of Inquisitive Communications, a strategic advisory practice. He received the 2022 Arthur W. Page Society Page Up Innovation Award, was named a PRWeek Dashboard 25 AI Pioneer in 2023 and 2024, and was named one of Propel's 100 Most Influential PR Tech Leaders Worldwide in 2025.

Connect with Dan

The Trending Communicator: https://trendingcommunicator.com
Substack: https://trendingcommunicator.substack.com
LinkedIn: https://linkedin.com/in/nestle
Lilypath: https://lilypath.com
Inquisitive Communications: https://be-inquisitive.com
Instagram: https://instagram.com/trendingcommunicator

Show notes for The Trending Communicator are co-created by Human Dan, Claude, and Fireflies.

Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See https://pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Authority-building has entered a new era—visibility hinges on context and credibility, and your expertise must be discoverable not just to humans but to machines.

In this episode of The Trending Communicator, host Dan Nestle explores these seismic changes with Stephanie Grober, Marketing and PR Director at the Horowitz Agency and a true trailblazer in legal and professional services PR.

Stephanie has mastered the art (and science) of making experts both visible and quotable, securing more than 200 high-impact media placements in a single year while connecting the dots between traditional PR and Generative Engine Optimization (GEO). She was already making her clients discoverable to the machines before most of us had even heard of ChatGPT.

Listen in and hear about:

• How traditional media relations thrives by blending strategic expertise with authentic human connection
• Why building credibility and visibility is essential for experts aiming to shape public narratives
• What role generative engine optimization (GEO) plays in making experts visible to AI-driven search
• How the definition of newsworthiness is shifting amid a relentless, minute-by-minute news cycle
• Why earned media placements influence discoverability but are not a magic bullet for GEO
• How leveraging both personal and firm branding helps legal and professional services stand out
• What opportunities and risks AI introduces for PR professionals, reporters, and the stories they tell

Notable Quotes

On the rapidly changing news cycle:

"Evergreen stories...there’s no room for them right now. Think about how much news, how much breaking news is coming at us. The news cycle doesn’t even feel like 24 hours. It feels like 24 minutes." [00:12:09 - 00:12:27]

On the human element in PR (and reluctance to let AI take over):

"PR is still very human...We aren’t using it to pitch. And I’ll say that there are some agencies that may be writing their pitches with AI. We are not. And that is a choice. We want to stand out as being authentic and human." [00:19:36 - 00:20:58]

On why traditional PR isn't dead—it's evolving:

"It’s a science and an art is what I like to say. Every time we try to make it a science, it shows us that it is an art and vice versa." [00:27:25 - 00:27:45]

On discoverability in the era of AI:

"We’ve been training the LLMs this entire time without realizing it. So for us, you know, some of the ways our clients have been referred to colloquially, you know, now that’s how they’re being discovered in a generative summary." [00:46:47 - 00:47:14]

Resources and Links

Dan Nestle

• Inquisitive Communications | Website
• The Trending Communicator | Website
• Communications Trends from Trending Communicators | Dan Nestle's Substack
• Dan Nestle | LinkedIn

Stephanie Grober:

• Stephanie Grober | LinkedIn
• Horowitz Agency

Timestamps

0:00:00 Authority Building’s Evolution & AI’s Role in Visibility

0:06:12 Legal & Accounting PR in a Fast-Moving World

0:12:09 Shifting News Cycles, Pitching for Relevance

0:17:30 Traditional Media Relations: Still Vital?

0:22:35 AI, Authenticity, and Human-Centric PR

0:27:25 Art vs. Science in Media Outreach

0:33:49 GEO (Generative Engine Optimization) Disrupts PR Strategies

0:39:06 Earned Media’s True Influence in GEO

0:44:34 Discoverability, Signal vs. Virality for B2B & Legal

0:50:56 Pivoting Expertise—Challenges in AI Search

0:57:30 Human Relationships, Strategy, and ROI in Legal PR

1:02:00 Supporting Journalists and the Future of Media

(Notes co-created by Human Dan, Claude, and Castmagic)

About The Trending Communicator

The Trending Communicator is a podcast about the future of communications and marketing, hosted by Dan Nestle. Each episode is a conversation with a communicator, marketer, author, or technologist about how the work is changing and what that means for the people doing it. The show launched in 2020 as The Dan Nestle Show and has published more than 150 episodes.

About the Host

Dan Nestle (Daniel Nestle) is a communications strategist with more than 25 years of experience, including 16 years in Japan. He is co-founder and Chief Product & Intelligence Officer of Lilypath, the company behind the patent-pending Authority Intelligence™ platform, and founder and Chief Curiosity Officer of Inquisitive Communications, a strategic advisory practice. He received the 2022 Arthur W. Page Society Page Up Innovation Award, was named a PRWeek Dashboard 25 AI Pioneer in 2023 and 2024, and was named one of Propel's 100 Most Influential PR Tech Leaders Worldwide in 2025.

Connect with Dan

The Trending Communicator: https://trendingcommunicator.com
Substack: https://trendingcommunicator.substack.com
LinkedIn: https://linkedin.com/in/nestle
Lilypath: https://lilypath.com
Inquisitive Communications: https://be-inquisitive.com
Instagram: https://instagram.com/trendingcommunicator

Show notes for The Trending Communicator are co-created by Human Dan, Claude, and Fireflies.

Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See https://pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

**NotebookLM HAS TAKEN OVER THE TRENDING COMMUNICATOR. AGAIN.**

Generative AI is shaking up the world of communications—and the debate is on. In this special takeover episode of The Trending Communicator, Abel and Iris weigh the promise and pitfalls of AI adoption for comms professionals. Is AI truly a strategic superpower, or does it risk eroding hard-won wisdom and trust?

Our hosts tackle big questions about originality, efficiency, brand voice, and the critical role of human judgment. From allegations of “AI slop” to the growing expectation that professionals must adapt or become obsolete, Iris and Abel challenge each other—and the industry—to find balance between bold innovation and ethical responsibility. Whether you’re in the excitement camp or a skeptic, this episode delivers sharp insights, real-world examples, and a call to lead with empathy and rigor as AI rewrites the rules of communication.

Listen in and hear about:

• How generative AI is transforming communication strategy and the debate over its real value
• Why AI-created content risks diluting professional wisdom and brand trust
• Ways communicators are leveraging legacy content to maintain originality with AI
• Ongoing concerns about AI amplifying existing flaws and spreading "AI slop"
• The evolving role of communicators as quality filters in an AI-driven workflow
• Challenges organizations face with AI adoption, from poor change management to role uncertainty
• Leadership’s new responsibility to use AI as a strategic partner while preserving empathy and judgment

Timestamps

0:00:00 Podcast Takeover & Introduction
0:00:26 GenAI and the Big Debate in Comms
0:00:38 Does Generative AI Add or Destroy Value?
0:01:06 Risks, Disruption & Trust in AI Adoption
0:01:25 Augmentation vs. Automation—Strategic Value
0:02:13 AI Hype & Human Element Concerns
0:02:39 AI Slop, Trust Issues, and Expertise Erosion
0:03:24 Strategic Upside: AI as Enabler
0:04:05 Human Judgment as the Quality Filter
0:04:40 Speed vs. Quality & Distinctive Human Insight
0:05:03 Changing Roles: Prompting, Critiquing, Synthesizing
0:05:31 Institutional Readiness, Ethics, Trust & Systemic Risks
0:06:43 Empathy & Perspective: Irreplaceable Human Advantages
0:07:06 AI for Reputation Management, Context, & Scale
0:07:32 Ethics vs. Efficiency: Risks in Sensitive Fields
0:08:04 Senior Communicators, AI as Validation & Infrastructure
0:08:41 Broadening Strategic Functions; AI as Audience
0:09:14 Organizational Readiness & Leadership Challenges
0:10:01 Leadership Opportunity: AI as Strategic Sparring Partner
0:10:52 Human Wisdom & Navigating Disruption
0:11:36 Closing Remarks & Podcast Outro

Audio generated by NotebookLM, based on the transcripts from all episodes of The Trending Communicator in 2025. Notes and timestamps generated by Castmagic. Intro and outro music generated by Suno. Outro voice generated with Elevenlabs. Graphic depiction of Abel and Iris generated with Gemini (Nanobanana); any similarity to any individual, living or dead, is unintentional.

About The Trending Communicator

The Trending Communicator is a podcast about the future of communications and marketing, hosted by Dan Nestle. Each episode is a conversation with a communicator, marketer, author, or technologist about how the work is changing and what that means for the people doing it. The show launched in 2020 as The Dan Nestle Show and has published more than 150 episodes.

About the Host

Dan Nestle (Daniel Nestle) is a communications strategist with more than 25 years of experience, including 16 years in Japan. He is co-founder and Chief Product & Intelligence Officer of Lilypath, the company behind the patent-pending Authority Intelligence™ platform, and founder and Chief Curiosity Officer of Inquisitive Communications, a strategic advisory practice. He received the 2022 Arthur W. Page Society Page Up Innovation Award, was named a PRWeek Dashboard 25 AI Pioneer in 2023 and 2024, and was named one of Propel's 100 Most Influential PR Tech Leaders Worldwide in 2025.

Connect with Dan

The Trending Communicator: https://trendingcommunicator.com
Substack: https://trendingcommunicator.substack.com
LinkedIn: https://linkedin.com/in/nestle
Lilypath: https://lilypath.com
Inquisitive Communications: https://be-inquisitive.com
Instagram: https://instagram.com/trendingcommunicator

Show notes for The Trending Communicator are co-created by Human Dan, Claude, and Fireflies.

Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See https://pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Companies love to talk about AI transformation. They've created policies, distributed tools, checked boxes. But behind closed doors, overwhelmed employees are phoning it in with AI slop, leaders can't tell the difference, and the workforce is too exhausted to learn anything new. That's not transformation. That's theater.

In this episode of The Trending Communicator, host Dan Nestle welcomes back Anne Green, CEO of G&S Integrated Marketing Communications Group and host of the Building Brand Gravity podcast. Anne brings a rare perspective—she's orchestrated one of the industry's most successful agency transformations while navigating this AI identity crisis firsthand. Having built Cooper Katz from startup to acquisition, then taken the helm at G&S and expanded it through strategic acquisitions, she's seen transformation from every angle.

Anne and Dan cut through the AI hype to examine what's really stalling adoption: a workforce stretched too thin to experiment, psychological bandwidth at zero, and the uncomfortable reality that AI doesn't automatically make anyone smarter—we have to fight for it. They explore why agencies may be better positioned to crack this code, what the dot-com bubble can teach us about today's AI valuations, and why the talent pipeline conversation keeps shifting from entry-level to mid-level to senior without anyone knowing who's actually at risk.

Listen in and hear about...

• Why AI acts like a "personality intensifier"—making good workers better and mediocre workers worse
• The workforce conundrum: people too overwhelmed to upskill, yet facing existential pressure to adapt
• What agencies are doing differently that corporate teams are missing
• Why "showing your work" on AI builds trust while hiding it destroys it
• Anne's mantra for surviving this moment: "Hold less tightly. Unclench."

Notable Quotes from Anne Green:

"The biggest thing is from the upskilling side, this is a very complex people transformation moment. And we are really crap in this society at upskilling people. We're not good at it." [00:11:32 – 00:11:49]

"AI doesn’t automatically augment our intelligence. We have to fight for it and we have to build it and we have to embrace it. But it is a journey." [00:18:49 – 00:19:02]

"There is, especially at this moment, a beauty of the beginner’s mind, that person who’s coming in with curiosity and freshness..." [00:57:00 – 00:57:40]

"Hold less tightly, unclench the hands and open up the palms. That’s the last thing I’d offer, folks. Hold less tightly." [01:04:38 – 01:04:47]

Resources and Links

Dan Nestle

• Inquisitive Communications | Website
• The Trending Communicator | Website
• Communications Trends from Trending Communicators | Dan Nestle's Substack
• Dan Nestle | LinkedIn

Anne Green

• G&S Integrated Marketing Communications | gscommunications.com
• Building Brand Gravity Podcast | Apple Podcasts
• Anne Green | LinkedIn

Timestamps

0:00:00 AI Transformation Hype and Restrictive Corporate Policies
0:06:43 Corporate Struggles with AI Adoption and Change Management
0:12:26 Bubble vs. Real Change—Comparing Dot-Com Era to AI Revolution
0:19:04 AI-Augmented Skills—Best and Worst Amplified
0:25:56 Human/Machine Symbiosis: How AI Changes Us
0:30:01 Freedom to Innovate: Builders, Use Cases, and Organizational Constraints
0:35:10 Overworked Workforce, Layoffs, and AI’s Impact on Talent Strategy
0:42:11 Talent Displacement, Business Model Evolution, and Pipeline Changes
0:48:25 Rethinking Comms Career Tracks with AI Integration
0:54:02 Entry-Level Realities: Training, Context, and Curiosity
1:01:16 Importance of In-Person Collaboration in the Age of AI
1:04:00 Leading Through Change—Kindness, Grace, and Adaptability
1:05:48 Wrap-Up, Final Thoughts, and Podcast Promotion

(Notes co-created by Human Dan, Claude, and Castmagic)

About The Trending Communicator

The Trending Communicator is a podcast about the future of communications and marketing, hosted by Dan Nestle. Each episode is a conversation with a communicator, marketer, author, or technologist about how the work is changing and what that means for the people doing it. The show launched in 2020 as The Dan Nestle Show and has published more than 150 episodes.

About the Host

Dan Nestle (Daniel Nestle) is a communications strategist with more than 25 years of experience, including 16 years in Japan. He is co-founder and Chief Product & Intelligence Officer of Lilypath, the company behind the patent-pending Authority Intelligence™ platform, and founder and Chief Curiosity Officer of Inquisitive Communications, a strategic advisory practice. He received the 2022 Arthur W. Page Society Page Up Innovation Award, was named a PRWeek Dashboard 25 AI Pioneer in 2023 and 2024, and was named one of Propel's 100 Most Influential PR Tech Leaders Worldwide in 2025.

Connect with Dan

The Trending Communicator: https://trendingcommunicator.com
Substack: https://trendingcommunicator.substack.com
LinkedIn: https://linkedin.com/in/nestle
Lilypath: https://lilypath.com
Inquisitive Communications: https://be-inquisitive.com
Instagram: https://instagram.com/trendingcommunicator

Show notes for The Trending Communicator are co-created by Human Dan, Claude, and Fireflies.

Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See https://pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.