Zero Click Marketing

What even is content marketing in the zero-click world? Spoiler: it looks a lot like PR, YouTube, and social media.

Amanda Milligan, who leads YouTube strategy at Semrush, joins me to talk about what she's learned from working across SEO, digital PR, and content marketing. We discuss how/why PR practitioners have always been doing zero click marketing, how to build a smarter B2B YouTube strategy, and why the best-performing content isn't always the cleverest.

Timestamps:

00:00 – Why great PR pitches require audience research (and a lot of work)

06:44 – What makes stories newsworthy? Lessons from earned media

08:34 – The digital PR principles that still work today

12:22 – Why AI is bringing SEO and PR closer together

18:14 – Building Semrush's YouTube strategy

21:51 – YouTube content for search vs. the recommendation algorithm

25:44 – Are creators withholding information to drive engagement?

31:42 – Will human-made content become a premium?

Connect with Amanda Milligan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/amandamilligan/

Check out Semrush: https://www.semrush.com/

Check out Amanda and Semrush on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@semrush

Learn more: http://zeroclickmarketing.co

Connect with Amanda Natividad (@amandanat): LinkedIn | Substack | Instagram | Threads

This episode was produced in partnership with Share Your Geniuswww.shareyourgenius.com

What makes a book worth reading, remembering, and recommending?

Ben Putano, founder and CEO of Damn Gravity (and Rand’s and my publisher!), explains why books might be one of the most powerful marketing tools in a zero-click world.

We get into why great books need one memorable idea, how to engineer word of mouth, why romance authors might be better at positioning than business authors, and how to market a book by starting with your biggest fans instead of chasing the broadest possible audience.

Timestamps:

00:00 – Why books are powerful in a zero-click world

02:19 – What books can accomplish that other marketing assets can't

09:20 – Books that changed the way we think

17:00 – What business authors can learn from romance novels

19:29 – The dinner party test for communicating big ideas

23:06 – How to market a book before it's published

27:23 – Bestseller lists vs. actual influence

Connect with Ben Putano: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ben-putano/

Check out Damn Gravity Media: https://www.damngravity.com/

Learn more: http://zeroclickmarketing.co

Connect with Amanda Natividad (@amandanat): LinkedIn | Substack | Instagram | Threads

This episode was produced in partnership with Share Your Geniuswww.shareyourgenius.com

I tossed out the idea that “today GEO is CRO,” and it gave Ross Hudgens actual goosebumps, because he’d just written about the same thing. Ross argues that if you can convince a user to buy, you can convince an LLM to recommend you.

Ross is the founder of Siege Media and author of Generative Engine Optimization, and we talked about what actually drives AI visibility. We discuss his research on more than 100 B2B websites, why comparison pages are associated with more AI referral traffic, and the limitations of AI attribution.

Timestamps:

00:00 — Is GEO just SEO with a new name?

07:20 — Research: Why comparison pages are winning in AI search

09:23 — Is GEO the new CRO?

16:03 — Measuring AI influence when nobody clicks

22:37 — How smaller brands can compete in AI search

Connect with Ross Hudgens: https://www.linkedin.com/in/rosshudgens/

Check out Siege Media: https://www.siegemedia.com

Get Generative Engine Optimization: The Definitive Guide to AI SEO: https://www.siegemedia.com/geo-book

Learn more: http://zeroclickmarketing.co

Connect with Amanda Natividad (@amandanat): LinkedIn | Substack | Instagram | Threads

This episode was produced in partnership with Share Your Geniuswww.shareyourgenius.com

Rand Fishkin (my co-author!) is back on the show for a special episode about our new book, Zero Click Marketing.

We talk about what surprised us while recording the audiobook, and some of the Zero Click Marketing ideas that marketers have pushed back on the most.

We get especially fired up about attribution and post-purchase surveys and taking stronger positions in your content. Plus, learn how an expert like Rand is learning an entirely new kind of marketing as he builds his gaming company, Snack Bar Studios.

In this episode:

00:00 — Why useful advice requires taking a position

03:55 — AI, gatekeeping, and the freedom to build things yourself

08:26 — Why Rand is deliberately making his content weirder and more human

12:00 — What marketers understand — and resist — about Zero-Click Marketing

14:24 — The problem with “How did you hear about us?”

18:50 — A surprise cameo

20:12 — Why free-text attribution surveys don't solve the problem

25:28 — The question to ask customers instead

30:09 — The opportunity cost of asking a bad question

31:23 — How Rand learned to market an indie video game from scratch

38:37 — Please buy our book. Or don't. We're very good at this.

Buy our book, “Zero Click Marketing: How to Build Brands and Earn Customers on a Traffic-Starved Web,” at http://zeroclickmarketing.co/book or on Amazon!

Connect with Rand Fishkin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/randfishkin/?isSelfProfile=false

Check out SparkToro: https://sparktoro.com/

Learn more: http://zeroclickmarketing.co

Connect with Amanda Natividad (@amandanat): LinkedIn | Substack | Instagram | Threads

This episode was produced in partnership with Share Your Geniuswww.shareyourgenius.com

Marketing keeps changing. But good marketing? Not so much.

Sarah Stockdale, founder and CEO of Growclass, joins me to talk about what still matters as algorithms, AI, attribution, and the platforms change. We talk about what still wins, and one crucial skill you still need today.

In this episode:

00:00 Why good marketing was never supposed to be easy

03:30 The fundamentals that still matter

07:15 Why changing user behavior is so hard

15:39 What “direct traffic” is hiding

16:15 When your marketing data is too good to be true

18:51 What still matters in the age of AI

20:09 Skepticism for…

22:47 How Growclass investigates direct traffic and dark social

Connect with Sarah Stockdale: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sarahstockdale/

Check out Growclass: http://growclass.co

Learn more: http://zeroclickmarketing.co

Connect with Amanda Natividad (@amandanat): LinkedIn | Substack | Instagram | Threads

This episode was produced in partnership with Share Your Geniuswww.shareyourgenius.com

Josh Ho, founder and CEO of ReferralRock, and I chit chat about marketing challenges and opportunities as of late. My fave part of this episode is when Josh explains how ReferralRock turns its existing customer conversations into an always-on source of audience research — using real customer language and anecdotes to shape strategy. (This happens about 15 minutes in!)

We also get into why marketers need both audience data and anecdotes, what AI changes about qualitative research, and how the smallest, weirdest details can sometimes become the most memorable parts of a brand.

Timestamps

00:00 — How Josh learned marketing through SEO and inbound

05:23 — How ReferralRock gets customers today

07:55 — When attribution is broken, what do you measure instead?

13:34 — AI search, prompts, and understanding buyer intent

15:10 — Turning customer calls into an audience research engine

20:47 — Creating content from what customers actually ask about

27:47 — Why marketers need “audiences + anecdotes”

30:02 — Blue spoons, memorable details, and creating word of mouth

35:29 — What does a “blue spoon” look like in B2B SaaS?

Connect with Josh Ho: https://www.linkedin.com/in/joshuajho/

Check out Referral Rock: https://referralrock.com

Learn more: http://zeroclickmarketing.co

Connect with Amanda Natividad (@amandanat): LinkedIn | Substack | Instagram | Threads

This episode was produced in partnership with Share Your Geniuswww.shareyourgenius.com

Wil Reynolds joins me to chop it up over what AI is changing — and what it’s revealing — about marketing, expertise, and trust. We talk about using AI without losing your voice, why accountability may matter more than “taste,” and how AI search is making it harder for brands to simply optimize their way into credibility. Wil also explains why he’d rather measure human trust than algorithmic visibility, how an intern exposed gaps in his own 25+ years of SEO experience, and why this moment in AI has rekindled the way he wants to build Seer Interactive.

Chapters

00:00 — Human trust vs. algorithmic proxies

03:14 — Spotting AI slop on LinkedIn

06:23 — The upside of competition in AI

08:15 — AI, creativity, and owning your work

25:49 — Taste vs. accountability in an AI world

27:58 — AI search is forcing brands to bring receipts

34:21 — Why SEO and AI visibility aren’t the same

38:42 — Measuring human trust instead of algorithmic traffic

46:29 — Hiring for a world that’s changing again

Connect with Wil Reynolds: https://www.linkedin.com/in/wilreynolds/

Check out Seer Interactive: https://www.seerinteractive.com/

Learn more: http://zeroclickmarketing.co

Connect with Amanda Natividad (@amandanat): LinkedIn | Substack | Instagram | Threads

This episode was produced in partnership with Share Your Geniuswww.shareyourgenius.com

Wistia CEO Chris Savage joins me to talk about how marketing has evolved in recent years, especially now as attribution keeps getting harder. We also dig into building sustainable content programs, finding opportunities in saturated channels, making the case for creative risks, and why some of the ideas that are hardest to green-light are actually the most valuable.

Timestamps

00:00 — Why the hardest ideas end up being the most valuable

01:31 — Wistia’s sustainable approach building its podcast

06:38 — Let the audience choose the format

10:19 — Marketing in a zero-click world

14:02 — Massive opportunities in untrackable marketing

16:36 — How to pitch bold ideas to leadership

20:42 — Where Chris would invest if he were starting from scratch

28:19 — Brand search as a leading marketing indicator

31:05 — How marketers can manage up more effectively

Connect with Chris Savage: https://www.linkedin.com/in/cjsavage/

Check out Talking Too Loud: https://wistia.com/series/talking-too-loud

Learn more: http://zeroclickmarketing.co

Connect with Amanda Natividad (@amandanat): LinkedIn | Substack | Instagram | Threads

This episode was produced in partnership with Share Your Geniuswww.shareyourgenius.com

As AI makes it easier to produce more content, podcasting offers something increasingly valuable: unmistakable evidence of a real person behind those ideas. Erica Bonser, co-founder of Fan Club, joins me to talk about what success should actually look like for a new show, and how marketers can turn a podcast into a sustainable engine — without expecting immediate business results.

Chapters

00:00 — Why podcasting feels distinctly human in the AI era

00:41 — What fitness brands teach us about identity and marketing

09:53 — Starting a podcast makes you a better communicator

11:34 — What should a podcast actually accomplish?

15:45 — Defining success and overcoming the “podcast graveyard”

19:10 — Why Erica isn’t worried about business outcomes yet

22:12 — The reality of sustaining a podcast

23:47 — Erica’s podcasting cheat sheet for 2026

Connect with Erica Bonser: https://www.linkedin.com/in/erica-bonser/

Check out Fan Club Brands: http://fanclubbrands.co/

Learn more: http://zeroclickmarketing.co

Connect with Amanda Natividad (@amandanat): LinkedIn | Substack | Instagram | Threads

This episode was produced in partnership with Share Your Geniuswww.shareyourgenius.com

It’s never been easier to create content — which means simply making content isn’t much of an advantage anymore. Today, I talk about what AI changes about the creator economy, why credibility is becoming more valuable as content gets cheaper, and how marketers should evaluate creator partnerships beyond clicks and impressions.

Chapters

00:00 — It has never been easier to create mediocre content

00:45 — How the creator economy has grown up

02:14 — As content gets cheaper, credibility gets more valuable

03:15 — Why creator marketing *is* Zero Click Marketing

04:08 — The prerequisite: authority with the right audience

05:01 — #1: Message transfer

06:24 — #2: Audience saturation

08:02 — #3: Asset value

10:01 — What the creator economy rewards now

Learn more: http://zeroclickmarketing.co

Connect with Amanda Natividad (@amandanat): LinkedIn | Substack | Instagram | Threads

This episode was produced in partnership with Share Your Geniuswww.shareyourgenius.com

What happens when your marketing is clearly doing something — but attribution can’t tell you exactly what? In this conversation with Wistia’s Talking Too Loud, we dig into zero click marketing, branded search, word of mouth, recall, and the growing gap between what marketers can measure and what actually influences people. It’s a conversation about learning to work with evidence instead of expecting perfect proof — and it feels even more relevant now than when we recorded it.

This episode was originally published on Talking Too Loud, Wistia's podcast about the brands, products, and marketing moves people can’t stop thinking — and talking — about.

Watch the original episode: https://wi.st/TTLNatividad

Explore more Talking Too Loud: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCMCL9HnQdLDHx8xxzeorzmQ

Learn more about Wistia: https://wistia.com/

Learn more: http://zeroclickmarketing.co

Connect with Amanda Natividad (@amandanat): LinkedIn | Substack | Instagram | Threads

This episode was produced in partnership with Share Your Geniuswww.shareyourgenius.com

This is me reacting in real time to news from Promptwatch and Petra Labs that Reddit just lost about 80% of citations in ChatGPT. TL;DR: chasing platform behavior is not a good strategy.

Other sources:

• Axios
• Semrush
• Profound

Timestamps:
00:00 Reddit citations fell off a cliff. So what?
00:59 Your strategy shouldn’t depend on one platform
01:54 If your audience uses Reddit, Reddit still matters
03:10 ChatGPT citation behavior is wildly unstable
04:26 The boring winner: brand-owned websites
05:32 Build useful homes across the internet
06:36 AI visibility is a benefit of good marketing

ZCM Field Notes are short reactions to news or observations of what’s happening in the field. Edits can be a little messy 'cause I'm doing them with my bare hands.

Learn more: https://zeroclickmarketing.co/

Connect with Amanda Natividad (@amandanat): LinkedIn | Substack | Instagram | Threads

LinkedIn’s feed has changed since I first published this episode — but the core idea holds up: the platform is trying to understand what you talk about, who should care, and what deserves distribution. In this refreshed Field Note, I revisit LinkedIn’s retrieval-and-ranking system, clarify what topical consistency actually means, touch on the new “Seems like AI slop” reporting feature, and explain why the best LinkedIn strategy still looks a lot like behaving normally at a party.

Timestamps

00:00 — What’s changed since the original episode

01:05 — Retrieval vs. ranking: the “two algorithms” caveat

01:28 — Why topical consistency still matters

02:20 — LinkedIn’s new “Seems like AI slop” reporting feature

03:20 — Stop chasing algorithm hacks; become understandable

05:02 — How LinkedIn’s retrieval and ranking stages work

06:20 — Why LinkedIn is like a party

10:03 — The real LinkedIn strategy: predictable relevance

Learn more: https://zeroclickmarketing.co/

Connect with Amanda Natividad (@amandanat): LinkedIn | Substack | Instagram | Threads

This episode was produced in partnership with Share Your Geniuswww.shareyourgenius.com

AI is new, yet somehow it’s already exhausting. Marketers are under constant pressure to adopt more tools, track more things, rethink their strategies, figure out AI visibility, and generally become smarter about a technology that keeps changing underneath them.

So this week, we’re resurfacing a conversation with my co-author Rand Fishkin because it feels even more useful now than when we recorded it.

We talk about how to make smart marketing bets when perfect attribution is impossible, what AI visibility can and can’t actually tell you, why “rank tracking” inside LLMs is mostly the wrong mental model, and where AI genuinely helps marketers — provided you know enough to recognize when it’s wrong.

Most importantly, this is a conversation about keeping your head while everyone else is telling you to do more.

In this episode:

04:20 — How to measure marketing when you can’t prove causation

07:11 — Why executives accept fuzzy measurement for traditional advertising but demand perfect attribution from digital

08:45 — Leading and lagging indicators for zero-click marketing

14:07 — Why AI actually makes zero-click marketing easier to understand

19:49 — Rand’s skepticism about AI visibility tracking — and the research that changed his mind

27:02 — What Rand learned about real versus synthetic prompts

30:52 — Using AI to analyze marketing data without outsourcing your judgment

33:45 — Zero Click Marketing does not mean zero sales

Of course, you’ll learn all about this and more in our forthcoming book, Zero Click Marketing. It comes out this October, and you can preorder today at http://zeroclickmarketing.co/book.

Learn more: http://zeroclickmarketing.co

Connect with Amanda Natividad (@amandanat): LinkedIn | Substack | Instagram | Threads

This episode was produced in partnership with Share Your Geniuswww.shareyourgenius.com

Marketers know how to distribute content. But getting a post, podcast, or report in front of people doesn’t guarantee that its central idea will stick.

Today, we dive into the difference between content performance and idea portability — and I offer five qualities that help an idea travel beyond its original container: immediate usefulness, a memorable handle, and oh… guess you’ll have to listen to find out the rest.

Timestamps

00:00 — Moving content vs. making ideas portable

02:07 — How the Paul Rudd example traveled

03:18 — Make it useful without the click

07:15 — Find the smallest complete version

08:51 — Make the idea applicable

10:21 — Give up control of the route

12:14 — Influence is bigger than attribution

Learn more: http://zeroclickmarketing.co

Connect with Amanda Natividad (@amandanat): LinkedIn | Substack | Instagram | Threads

This episode was produced in partnership with Share Your Geniuswww.shareyourgenius.com

The zero click internet sounds like marketing jargon, but the idea is simple: platforms increasingly give people answers without sending them to the original source. Citing my recent NPR appearance and using Paul Rudd as the leading example, I explain the zero click web… for your mom. Well, for my mom. Both, really. I also break down why the shift is convenient for users, difficult for publishers, and impossible for marketers to ignore.

In this episode:

00:00 — Zero-click marketing for the normies

01:09 — Paul Rudd and the zero click internet

02:41 — The broken bargain between platforms and publishers

03:50 — How AI accelerates the shift

05:14 — Creating value without holding it behind a click

06:00 — What my NPR/Planet Money interview reveals about influence

07:32 — Making ideas useful, clear, and memorable enough to travel

Learn more: http://zeroclickmarketing.co

Connect with Amanda Natividad (@amandanat): LinkedIn | Substack | Instagram | Threads

This episode was produced in partnership with Share Your Geniuswww.shareyourgenius.com

Good marketing is not about doing more. I explain why every channel creates an ongoing obligation, how opportunity cost shapes modern marketing, and the three filters to decide what deserves time, energy, and attention.

Timestamps

00:00 — Why doing more is not the answer

01:39 — What should you stop doing?

02:04 — Marketing channels are recurring obligations

02:56 — How maintenance overwhelms strategy

03:21 — The question to ask before saying yes

05:13 — When metrics should change your plans

06:47 — What can you stop feeling guilty about?

07:11 — You do not have to show up everywhere

Learn more: http://zeroclickmarketing.co

Connect with Amanda Natividad (@amandanat): LinkedIn | Substack | Instagram | Threads

This episode was produced in partnership with Share Your Geniuswww.shareyourgenius.com

This is what marketing looks like when perfect attribution isn't possible — and why that may actually be freeing. I chat with Rachel Elsts Downey, founder of Share Your Genius, to discuss podcasting as a business strategy, measuring what actually matters, choosing marketing channels intentionally, and why trust compounds faster than dashboards.

Timestamps

00:00 Why podcast partnerships created six-figure pipelines

03:31 Why podcasting worked faster than traditional lead generation

04:10 Is launching a podcast easier today than 10 years ago?

08:46 How Share Your Genius measures marketing success

10:05 The question every marketer should ask before tracking another KPI

13:29 A partnership experiment that paid off (and where it went too far)

16:22 Defining qualified leads and knowing your ideal customer

21:37 How founders can accidentally hold back their own marketing

24:15 Letting data guide decisions without overreacting

Connect with Rachel Elsts Downey: https://www.linkedin.com/in/rachelelstsdowney

Learn more about Share Your Genius: http://www.shareyourgenius.com

Learn more: https://zeroclickmarketing.co/

Connect with Amanda Natividad (@amandanat): LinkedIn | Substack | Instagram | Threads

This episode was produced in partnership with Share Your Geniuswww.shareyourgenius.com

I chat with my buddy Kevin Indig about what he’s learning in his AI research, along with generative engine optimization, and user behavior in tools like ChatGPT, Gemini, Perplexity, and Google AI Mode.

Kevin explains why clicks are disappearing, why citations may matter less than brand mentions, and why trust is becoming one of the most important assets a brand can build in the AI era. He also explains “ghost citations,” how AI systems seem to read content, and why customer research is becoming newly essential.

Links to some of Kevin’s recent research:
The Fan-Out Effect: What Happens Between a Query and a Citation

Timestamps:
00:00 Kevin on why trust matters more in an AI world
00:32 Why GEO/AEO may be forcing executives to care about better marketing
01:39 Kevin’s research: fewer clicks, more variance, and trust as the key ingredient
05:11 What “ghost citations” are and why they matter
14:09 The risk of AI slop and how synthetic content erodes trust
19:24 Tools and approaches for tracking AI visibility
22:03 What user behavior research reveals about AI search habits
24:50 What brands should measure in their first 90 days of AI search tracking
27:03 Why old-school PR metrics like share of voice and sentiment are back
29:05 Best way to stay in the know on all things GEO

Connect with Kevin Indig: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kevinindig/
Sign up for Kevin’s Newsletter, Growth Memo: https://www.growth-memo.com/

Learn more: zeroclickmarketing.co

Connect with Amanda Natividad (@amandanat): LinkedIn | Substack | Instagram | Threads

This episode was produced in partnership with Share Your Genius
www.shareyourgenius.com

In this Field Notes episode, Amanda looks at new research from Similarweb on the downstream impact of AI visibility, plus Seer Interactive’s argument that AI visibility isn’t just an SEO issue — it also affects paid media, brand, and attribution.

Timestamps

00:00 Why AI visibility is creating a new attribution problem
01:30 What Similarweb found: AI-recommended brands saw more downstream visits
03:00 Why the traffic often shows up as branded search, not AI referral traffic
04:45 Branded search as a “receipt” for upstream marketing
06:00 Why AI may not create demand, but move or nurture it
07:30 The four roles of AI visibility: create, capture, nurture, protect
10:30 Why AI visibility can’t live only with SEO
12:00 What marketers should track beyond referral traffic
14:00 The Zero Click Marketing takeaway: the most important touchpoint may be the one analytics never sees

Links Mentioned:

Similarweb: The Downstream Impact of AI Visibility
Rand Fishkin / SparkToro: New Research from Similarweb: How AI Brand Mentions Influence Direct Visits & Traditional Search Queries
Seer Interactive: Your SEO Team Is Building AI Visibility. Paid Media Should Be Too

Learn more: https://zeroclickmarketing.co/

Connect with Amanda Natividad (@amandanat): LinkedIn | Substack | Instagram | Threads