Below the Surface

Episode 50: The Audit System, a Great Idea Under Pressure

Fifty episodes in, Gunnar and Hammond look back at their favourite conversations before tackling a big question: is the contaminated land site audit system working as well as it could?

Both support the scheme and value the expertise auditors bring. But their experiences, and Gunnar’s conversations with around 15 auditors and senior consultants, raise questions about how audits are requested, conducted and supported.

In this episode:

• When is an audit needed?
• The pressure on auditors.
• The cost of excessive conservatism.
• Consistency and accountability.
• What could improve?

There are frustrations, a few laughs and plenty of respect for the auditors who help solve difficult problems. The aim is to improve a valuable system and make technical outcomes the centre of the conversation.

Have a different perspective? We welcome feedback from auditors, consultants, councils and regulators. If you work with the scheme and would like to join the discussion, get in touch.

Thanks for listening to our fiftieth episode. If you enjoy Below the Surface, share it with a colleague.

Episodes mentioned:

#35 The PFAS Heath Advice

#45 The Disclaimer

#19 The Inventor

#11 The Sampling Evolution

#16 The Sparrow in the Lead Mine

#27 The Chronicles of an Auditor with Rod Hardwood

Links:

Thomas Midgley

Eddie the Eagle making Olympic history!

Eric Moussambani

Elizabeth Swaney

The episode was recorded on 9 October 2026

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The necessary disclaimer: The views, thoughts, and opinions expressed in this Podcast are the speakers’ own. They do not necessarily represent the views, thoughts, and opinions of 4Pillars Environmental Consulting Pty Ltd or any Client, Supplier or other party related to 4Pillars or the speakers.

(c) Gunnar Haid and James Hammond

What makes a good regulator?

Gunnar and Hammond are joined for the second time by Jason Scarborough, former NSW EPA officer and founder of JS Regulatory Services and Echidna, to talk about how regulation should actually work.

They discuss behaviour change, regulatory transparency, poorly designed KPIs, explain the term "regulatory capture", the “fit and proper person” test and why vague regulatory language can create problems.

This episode is particularly relevant to regulators and anyone in a position of regulation or enforcement, but also to consultants and businesses that regularly deal with regulators.

There is also some discussion of surveillance technology, AI, Homer Simpson, Star Trek and the question of how much it would take to bribe a regulator.

Jason Scarborough - Echidna | LinkedIn

The episode was recorded on 4 September 2026

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(c) Gunnar Haid and James Hammond

What makes something worth keeping, and who gets to decide?

In this episode of our The Basics Series, Gunnar and Hammond talk with heritage specialist Dr MacLaren North.

They cover what heritage actually means, the differences between built, archaeological and Aboriginal cultural heritage, how heritage significance is assessed, and why the process can sometimes be surprisingly subjective.

They also look at how heritage considerations affect development, why getting specialist advice early matters, and whether an old building is genuinely significant or simply in need of maintenance.

A practical and surprisingly entertaining introduction to the world of heritage.

AS4482-1999 and 2005 withdrawn | ALGA

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(c) Gunnar Haid and James Hammond

Who keeps environmental professionals honest, and what happens when they get it wrong?

Gunnar and James open with a deceptively simple question: would you take a guaranteed $50,000 or risk it on a coin toss for $1 million? Their answers lead to a revealing conversation about risk, certainty, running a business and how personal circumstances shape financial decisions.

Then the episode switches to newly appointed EIANZPresident Fiona Gainsford about the growing influence of professional certification in the environmental industry. A frank discussion about professionalism, accountability and who sets the standards for the environmental industry.

They discuss ethics, complaints and disciplinary action, conflicts of interest, misuse of certification seals, and whether the CEnvP system now holds considerable power over environmental professionals and their careers.

They also push Fiona on some pointed questions: why the EIANZ stayed quiet during the asbestos in mulch saga, whether certification seals are vulnerable to misuse, how conflicts of interest are handled in practice, and whether an unpaid volunteer board should hold this much sway over people's livelihoods.

BBC Audio | More or Less | Would you take £50,000 or a 50/50 chance of £1m?

Proposed AS ISO 18400-106 Soil Quality – Sampling

Tony Albert - Wikipedia

Tony Albert: Not a Souvenir | MCA Australia

http://www.eianz.org

http://www.cenvp.org

EIANZ peer review guidelines

Episode #14 The Honest Truth

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(c) Gunnar Haid and James Hammond

What does a career in the environmental industry actually look like, and how do you know when it is time for a change? That change can range from minor adjustment in your life and your expectations and goals to a big one like changing jobs or even careers altogether.

Gunnar and Hammond are joined by career coach Kellie Guenther to discuss career pathways, professional development, leadership, mentoring and workplace culture.

They also explore the pressures facing young professionals, why the first job can shape an entire career, and why working in the environmental industry may involve fewer dolphins and butterflies than expected.

Links:

EPA Updates: Regulatory, licensing, policy and legislative updates | EPA

PFAS Position Statement

Asbestos in Recovered Fines

EPA Response to OCSE paper

Free Asbestos Waste Disposal for households

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The necessary disclaimer: The views, thoughts, and opinions expressed in this Podcast are the speakers’ own. They do not necessarily represent the views, thoughts, and opinions of 4Pillars Environmental Consulting Pty Ltd or any Client, Supplier or other party related to 4Pillars or the speakers.

(c) Gunnar Haid and James Hammond

Disclaimers in our reports. Useless fluff or necessary ass covering?

Who better to discuss this than Sarah Mansfield (LinkedIn) who is returning to Below the Surface and almost immediately raises the bar for all future lawyer and engineer jokes. Sarah, Gunnar and Hammond tackle P&O cruise insults, ALGA glory, puppies, and why a useful “How to Read This Report” section may be better than hiding AI created legal fog at the back.

Other subjects: Report reliance, executive summaries, confused clients, angry clients, and why “nobody other than the Client can rely on this report” is not quite the magic spell consultants hope it is (spoiler: don't bother with that statement).

Sarah's first appearance on BTS

HWLE Lawyers

H2coco poppers pulled from Woolies shelves due to plastic straws - Inside Waste

Coal companies to reap billions more in taxpayer diesel subsidies as Labor approves new mining

The episode was recorded on 16 June 2026

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(c) Gunnar Haid and James Hammond

In Episode #30 The Duplicate, Gunnar famously declared that duplicate soil samples in heterogeneous fill are useless. Risk assessor Belle Casement of Terravale Consulting heard the episode… and decided Gunnar needed correcting. 😲

In this nerd-out episode, they discuss QA/QC, dodgy duplicates, lab uncertainty, conservative risk assessments, and whether the typical QC sections in contaminated land reports are actually science or just expensive pseudo scientific fluff we do to please regulators.

Gunnar briefly ponders writing his own version of the ASC NEPM and re-introduces the term Quality Theatre in hope of getting it officially introduced into the Miriam Webster next year.

They also get into lead, vapours, CRM samples, rinsates, trip blanks and upper confidence limits, with a completely unnecessary but somehow relevant detour into Henry VIII and Scientology. Nobody backs down, several sacred cows get kicked over, while Hammond tries hard to keep the two fighters apart and sometimes even dares to enter the ring himself.

BTS Episode #30: The Duplicate - the OG duplicate episode

BTS Episode #11: he Sampling Evolution - Ross McFarland

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(c) Gunnar Haid and James Hammond

Hammond relives his time as a representative for Australia in international biodiversity negotiations at COP13 of the Convention on Biological Diversity. But before that a few updates, a hint for auditors and Gunnar almost completely loses it while talking about one of the latest EPA announcements leading to a most epic Gu-rant.

Links:

Clarence Coal mine penalty

Constitutional heads of power.

'Getting to Yes'.

Never Split the Difference.

Rapport - The Four Ways to Read People.

Sam Harris | #132 - Freeing the Hostages with Chris Voss

Professional AS Soils Short Courses - Southern Cross University

Recorded on 2 April 2026

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(c) Gunnar Haid and James Hammond

Microplastics: The Invisible Problem (or is it?)

Brooke Kelly from Reditus joins Gunnar and James to unpack microplastics. From penguin carcasses and seal scat (that's science code for poo) to human exposure, they explore where microplastics come from, how they are measured, and why they are everywhere. There is a lot of hype surrounding microplastics and some evidence of ecological harm exists, but human health impacts remain largely observational. They tackle analytical limitations, media-driven panic versus scientific uncertainty, and the parallels with PFAS.

The episode lands on a pragmatic note: while the science evolves, a precautionary approach and simple exposure reduction strategies are worth considering.

Links from the episode:

NEJM: https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2309822

https://shirtloadsofscience.libsyn.com/prof-michaela-lucas-465

Broadscale microplastic assessment | EPA

https://aahms.org/publications/microplastics-precaution-and-biomonitoring-needed/

https://theconversation.com/scientists-may-be-overestimating-the-amount-of-microplastics-in-the-environment-and-the-culprit-is-lab-gloves-258545

Below the Surface: The PFAS Health Advice

Recorded on 17 April 2026

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(c) Gunnar Haid and James Hammond

Artificial intelligence has gone from curiosity to daily tool almost overnight.

In this episode, Gunnar and James sit down with AI consultant Alex Rankin who spent over 25 years in senior roles across the Australian Public Service before turning her focus to helping environmental consultancies figure out where AI actually fits into their workflows. Together they cut through the hype and talk about what AI can actually do for environmental professionals right now.

In this episode:

• What LLMs, generative AI, agentic AI, and AGI actually mean, and which ones matter for your practice right now
• Why AI is better thought of as a fast intern than a consultant (for now)
• What environmental consultants are actually using AI for (and what they're still struggling with)
• The hallucination problem (Gunnar calls it lying) and the cross-checking trick that helps
• How to train an AI tool and what "training" actually means in practice
• A practical framework for dipping a toe in without blowing your budget or your deadline
• Why Claude, ChatGPT, and Gemini are not interchangeable and when to use which

This episode was recorded on 6 March 2026.

Book a meeting with Alex: https://meetings-ap1.hubspot.com/a/driftwood-discovery

ALGA launches Special Interest Group for AI

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(c) Gunnar Haid and James Hammond

If you've ever stared at a lab result that exceeds your NEPM HIL and wondered "okay, but what does this actually mean?". This one's for you.

Gunnar and James sit down with Dr Kylie Dodd, environmental toxicologist and risk assessor at GHD, to get into the science behind the numbers that so many of us lean on without fully understanding where they come from. Kylie has a great way of making this stuff click, and the conversation goes places that are genuinely useful for day-to-day practice.

They get into why Tier 1 screening levels are built to be conservative by design, why an exceedance doesn't automatically mean you need to remediate, and what it looks like to think a bit deeper, what they're calling "Tier 1.5 Risk Assessment — without needing to be a fully-fledged risk assessor yourself.

A big chunk of the conversation is about the practical stuff: how to get more out of your conceptual site model (CSM), how to think about exposure pathways and bioaccessibility, and how realistic site use should dictate the way you interpret results. Some of those small shifts in thinking can make a real difference to the recommendations you're putting forward.

They also get into how risk assessments hold up under regulator scrutiny, when an environmental management plan is actually the right tool, and what data decisions early in a project can save a risk assessor a lot of headaches later.

Fair warning: this episode won't make you a risk assessor. But it might change how you think about what those numbers are really telling you — and what you do next.

Links:

ASC NEPM Toolbox

Episode 38 The Bioavailability

Recorded on 12 Feb 2026

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(c) Gunnar Haid and James Hammond

A deeper dive into Acid Sulfate Soils. In a slightly QLD centric episode, Gunnar and James are joined by all three main authors of the QLD ASS Management Guidelines, widely regarded as the best ASS guidelines in the world.

Sue-Ellen Dear is a Senior Land Resource Officer with the QLD Department of Natural Resources and Mines and has contributed to acid sulfate soil policy and guidance since 1996. She is lead author of the QLD ASS Management Guidelines.

Kristie Williams has spent nearly 25 years in the QLD government soils team, working across ASS, salinity, erosion and land resource assessment. She has authored technical reports, contributed to regulations and assessed developments from small works to major canal estates.

Dr Angus McElnea Angus developed the SPOCAS method, contributed to laboratory guidelines, and co-authored Australian (AS 4969) and international (ISO 14388) standards. He is a NATA technical assessor, worked on the East Trinity remediation project, and is currently involved in greenhouse gas and fertiliser efficiency research.

They unpack how acid sulfate soils form and what really happens when these soils are disturbed. They cover pyrite formation, potential vs actual acid sulfate soils and the “trinity of acidities” and then discuss real-world management challenges.

They put forward avoidance of disturbing ASS as the first priority, the realities of liming and mixing on treatment pads, the controversy around acid neutralising capacity, and why incubation testing matters. They talk about strategic reburial, the pros and cons of centralised treatment facilities, the carbon cost of treating ASS, and the industry’s tendency toward conservative safety factors (with a small Gu-rant - they are always audience favourites so we hear)

The episode finishes with validation testing, safe reuse of treated soils and the future of professional certification through the Registered Soil Practitioner scheme.

If you work in contaminated land, coastal development, infrastructure or groundwater, this episode is essential listening.

Links:

BTS #23: The Basics: Acid Sulfate Soil

Legislation and policies for ASS management in Qld

ASS guidance material

Retained Acidity Technical Note

SNAS correction by NATA

Gunnar loves ASS

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(c) Gunnar Haid and James Hammond

How much of any given contaminant is actually taken up into human bodies?

If we think about it, that is one of the single most important things to consider as an environmental consultant when reporting on a site's contamination status, yet it is not something that is very often done. Gunnar and James are yet again soaring with an industry eagle as they set out to get better at that very aspect of consulting.

They chat with Dr Albert Juhasz, a Research Professor at the Future Industries Institute, internationally recognised for cross-disciplinary research on contaminant bioavailability and human health exposure. He has led development of one of the world’s largest contaminant bioavailability databases and advanced in vitro methods now applied at more than 100 contaminated sites across Australia.

His work has informed national and international exposure assessment policy, including the ASC NEPM and EnHealth Guidelines, and influenced regulatory guidance in the US, Canada and New Zealand. Albert is a senior journal editor, WHO consultant, contaminated-site auditor adviser, and a highly cited researcher (H-index 37).

The episode was recorded on 7 November 2025

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(c) Gunnar Haid and James Hammond

The 2025 Year in Review (That Wasn’t Supposed to Happen)

What started as a neat 15-minute intro quietly turned into a full end-of-year wrap-up. Classic Below the Surface. Gunnar and James get side-tracked almost immediately and eventually realise they have recorded the accidental 2025 BTS year in review. They cover listener feedback, behind-the-scenes stats, favourite episodes and a special mention for Sandgate.

Personal obsessions make an appearance, with both sharing their top five podcasts of the year. Strong opinions, minimal overlap, and proof that podcast hosts mostly listen to other podcasts.

On the technical front, Gunnar explains why the new AS 5370 feels like a step backwards, followed by a familiar rant on mandatory low-speed EV noise in Australia. EVs also feature heavily, including the claim that at least 11 new electric vehicles have hit Sydney roads thanks to a BTS episode.

The EPA gets its own moment, with discussion of recent turmoil, announcements that feel straight out of Utopia, and Gunnar’s practical solution to the EPA’s budget problems. They finish with updates on Resource Recovery Orders, the new ASS RRO, and thoughts on a possible National EPA.

Unplanned, slightly chaotic, and very on brand. A fitting way to wrap up 2025.

Links:

Gunnar's Top 5 Podcasts

The Tennis Podcast

Uncomfortable Conversations with Josh Szeps

Andy Roddick's Served Podcast

The Michael Shermer Show

Joe Rogan (his interview with Lance Armstrong: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rEfSdPz1WtA)

All the other podcasts Gunnar subscribes to in one handy link

James' favourites

The Imperfects Podcast

Two Broke Watch Snobs

Democracy Sausage with Mark Kenny | Australian Studies Institute

The Rights to Ricky Sanchez - A podcast about the Philadelphia 76ers

The Art of Manliness

This BTS Episode was recorded on 12 December 2025

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(c) Gunnar Haid and James Hammond

What it's really like to be regulated?

Regulators, take note - this one’s for you.

We are shining the light on the third corner of the Regulator – Consultant – Client relationship: the Client.

What’s it really like to be on the receiving end of regulation? Do operators of licensed facilities feel supported … or just scrutinised? Are those hefty licence fees worth it? And is there a fair playing field between the licensed and the “let’s-pretend-we-don’t-need-a-licence” crowd?

Of course, it’s not all about the regulators, consultants, you’ll want to listen too.
What do clients actually expect from us? What builds trust, and what breaks it?

To kick off this new series, Gunnar and James sit down with Anthony Alpen, Founder and CEO of Tank Management Australia (TMA). As the head of an IBC (Intermediate Bulk Container) reconditioning company, working under a strict EPL, Anthony knows first-hand what it means to navigate the regulatory maze.

Sure, it sounds a bit dry on paper, but, as always, Gunnar and James find the sweet spot between serious insights and a few good laughs. It’s smart, it’s honest, and it’s the kind of chat that’ll make both regulators and consultants think twice (in a good way).

The episode was recorded on 10 October 2025.

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(c) Gunnar Haid and James Hammond

The NSW Health PFAS Advice includes quite some statements:

• “The health effects of PFAS appear to be small.”
• “… there was definite evidence of increased psychological distress in … exposed communities, evidence for other adverse health outcomes from this study was limited.”
• “Interventions that reduce blood PFAS are of uncertain benefit and may cause harm.”

These comments seem at odds with much of the mainstream media's presentation around PFAS. Or even the recently drastically reduced drinking water guidelines or Version 3 of the National Environmental Management Plan (NEMP) for PFAS. On top of that, the statements are unusually direct for a government public health communication, which made us curious to understand how NSW Health had arrived at these conclusions.

To find out, Gunnar and James reached out to NSW Health. Their media team was quick to respond and connected them with two members of the expert advisory panel:

• Dr Claire Hooker – Associate Professor, Health Humanities and Arts and Health, Sydney Health Ethics
• Prof Martyn Kirk – National Centre for Epidemiology and Population Health, Australian National University

Speaking with these distinguished researchers was a privilege. Despite being a little star-struck, Gunnar and James kept their cool and recorded one of their most insightful conversations to date.

This episode was recorded on 30 September 2025 and it is dense with evidence, reasoning, and nuance - it’s well worth your full attention.

Southern Cross University Acid Sulfate Soil Course

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(c) Gunnar Haid and James Hammond

Gunnar (without James this time) gives it a go to get to the bottom of the very basics of what we need to think of around stormwater on a site. There are few better suited to talk about the subject than our guest Mircea Stancu, the founder of Cleanstormwater.

Mircea is a civil engineer, software engineer and, you guessed it, an expert in anything related to stormwater. He is also quite a flamboyant guest and he and Gunnar managed to put together a show case of the very best of (what Gunnar at least calls) attractive European accents.

The two of them briefly talk about a dispute between Mircea and Melbourne Water, played out publicly on LinkedIn. If you feel like a little bit of entertainment, grab your popcorn and have a look at these videos:

https://www.linkedin.com/embed/feed/update/urn:li:ugcPost:7185803882801848320

https://www.linkedin.com/embed/feed/update/urn:li:ugcPost:7209037421026369536

https://www.linkedin.com/embed/feed/update/urn:li:ugcPost:7215890816471302146

https://www.linkedin.com/embed/feed/update/urn:li:ugcPost:7213783068518596609

https://www.linkedin.com/embed/feed/update/urn:li:ugcPost:7211555577947127808

https://www.linkedin.com/embed/feed/update/urn:li:ugcPost:7261621640537481216

https://www.cleanstormwater.com.au/

https://au.linkedin.com/in/mircea-stancu-193048108

Southern Cross University Acid Sulfate Soil Course

The episode was recorded on 5 June 2025.

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(c) Gunnar Haid and James Hammond

James K (James Karagiannis) has personally completed a stack of waste classifications. And in addition, he has reviewed somewhere between 1,000 and 1,200 reports written by other consultants for our clients. That gives him a rare, panoramic view of what great looks like … and what misses the mark.

Gunnar and Hammond, James Hammond, sit down with him to unpack what he sees when reviewing these reports.

The original plan was to listen to James K. But with Gunnar’s well-known habit of let’s say, sharing his thoughts, and Hammond’s nerdy knowledge in resource recovery and compliance, there may have been a little more talking than listening at times.

Still, we think you’ll enjoy the conversation, have a few laugh and maybe even pick up a few tips to sharpen your own waste classification skills. Enjoy!

The episode was recorded on 11 September 2025.

Links mentioned in the episode:

Electric Vehicles are allowed to use transit lanes in NSW

NSW Health Expert Advisory Panel on PFAS

Our interview with NSW Health Panel members on the PFAS Health Advice

Nightcrawler on Netflix

Episode with Linda Apthorpe on asbestos in soils analysis

Episode with Pierina Otness on how to sample for asbestos in soil on a site

Episode with Ross McFarland about sampling and Decision Units

Gunnar's method of re-running samples accountably

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(c) Gunnar Haid and James Hammond

Tony Chappel, the CEO of the NSW EPA, is our guest today, so we are definitely back with a bang after the summer holidays.

Gunnar and James are (surprisingly!) well-prepared and keep the conversation on track as they dive into Tony’s journey to leading the EPA, his early priorities, the role of politics in environmental regulation, and the importance of deep listening in leadership. They explore everything from the OCSE paper and the EPA's potential collaboration with industry bodies, to the tricky disconnect between waste and contaminated sites, the zero-tolerance stance on asbestos in waste, updates to the ASC NEPM, and the growing pressures on landfill capacity.

And yes, Gunnar did try for a get-out-of-jail-free card from Tony… but no luck this time (nice try, though)!

Three experts, one great conversation, and a rare look into the leadership and direction of the NSW EPA. This is definitely one episode you won’t want to miss.

Links mentioned:
NSW Health Expert Advisory Panel on PFAS

Our Interview with NSW Health Panel Members about this advice (recorded a few weeks after this episode went live)

Draft ASS Order and Exemption

Recorded on 19 August 2025

Listen to Below the Surface and collect CPD points. We have confirmation that you can claim 0.5 points for every hour you spend with us under the Self Education Category

Contact: bts@4pillars.com.au

https://www.linkedin.com/company/below-the-surface-podcast

The necessary disclaimer: The views, thoughts, and opinions expressed in this Podcast are the speakers’ own. They do not necessarily represent the views, thoughts, and opinions of 4Pillars Environmental Consulting Pty Ltd or any Client, Supplier or other party related to 4Pillars or the speakers.

(c) Gunnar Haid and James Hammond

Electric Vehicles are basically half price in Australia right now, thanks to some little-known government incentives. Gunnar and James decided it was the perfect time to talk… tax. Yes, tax. And you thought resource recovery was a boring subject, right?

But before you judge, listen to this episodes. Gunnar and James have brought in the big guns: chartered accountant Paul Mills (paulybmills at gmail.com).

It really sounds like the beginning of a bad joke: Two engineers and an accountant meet for a podcast ...

Somehow yet again they pull it off, though. This episode is full of genuinely valuable information. Paul explains what Fringe Benefits Tax (FBT) actually is, who pays it, and whether your lease company or car dealers are lying to you with their 'tax advice' (spoiler: probably). They also unpack the confusing mess that is the difference between a car loan, a lease, and a novated lease.

And most importantly: The kicker is that EVs (full EVs, not wannabe EV hybrids) are FBT exempt in Australia. If you do it right, that knocks off around 50% off the prices of buying an EV. How? You gotta listen to find out.

But remember: While Paul is brilliant, this podcast is still mainly about contaminated sites and resource recovery (some call it dirt and rubbish). So don’t go making financial decisions based on what you heard here without getting your own advice.

Recorded on 11 June 2025 (just before EOFY!)

Link to the EPA announcement regarding NEMP 3

Listen to Below the Surface and collect CPD points. We have confirmation that you can claim 0.5 points for every hour you spend with us under the Self Education Category

Contact: bts@4pillars.com.au

https://www.linkedin.com/company/below-the-surface-podcast

The necessary disclaimer: The views, thoughts, and opinions expressed in this Podcast are the speakers’ own. They do not necessarily represent the views, thoughts, and opinions of 4Pillars Environmental Consulting Pty Ltd or any Client, Supplier or other party related to 4Pillars or the speakers.

(c) Gunnar Haid and James Hammond