Conversations

Instructions on how to forge a path through a darkening world, according to former neuroscientist and psychoanalyst, Dr Sharon Blackie.

Sharon grew up in what she calls the edge lands — on a council estate, near marshes full of migrating birds, next to the chemical factories of North-Eastern England.

She was given fairy stories to read that mirrored her own experience in a way — Sharon knew the world was not always a safe place and that little children should be careful.

After her violent father left the family, Sharon’s mum turned to alcohol to cope.

Through her mother’s recovery, Sharon was introduced to a local recovery centre called The Room where people could get help for their addiction, and there Sharon found a fascinating group of people who promoted her interest in psychology, and a place to belong.

After university, Sharon had a fine life on paper — a husband, a well-paid corporate job and a mortgage, but she wasn’t happy and she heard The Call to start a dangerous and unlikely project.

Sharon was living in America in 1999 when John F Kennedy Jnr died in a plane crash.

She decided she needed to face her longstanding fear of flying and took up lessons to become a pilot, to look death in the face.

Sharon says if we heed the messages in fairy stories they can serve us well in life — be courageous, be kind and always share what you have with friends who may help you in the future.

Further information

Ripening: Why Women Need Fairy Tales Now is published by September.

Read Sharon's Substack The Art of Enchantment.

This episode was made on Turrbul and Jagera country. It was produced by Alice Moldovan. The Executive Producer is Nicola Harrison.

This episode focuses on ecofeminism, mythology, fairytales, tatterhood, snow white, rose red, danger, intrigue, sharing, post-hero, women, nature, The Call, facing fear.

To binge even more great episodes of the Conversations podcast with Richard Fidler and Sarah Kanowski go the ABC listen app (Australia) or wherever you get your podcasts. There you’ll find hundreds of the best thought-provoking interviews with authors, writers, artists, politicians, psychologists, musicians, and celebrities.

Lisa Peberdy has been delivering babies for over 40 years, in hospitals and homes, in cities and remote locations and she still cries with joy at every birth.During Lisa's first career as a nurse, she was physically repelled by the notion of childbirth.

When she re-trained to become a midwife, delivering a baby unassisted was a great challenge.

When Lisa finally did it, she was hooked; and she says she still cries with joy at every birth for which she's present.

Lisa's delivered babies in hospitals and homes, in cities and remote locations, all over Australia.

In recent years her work has been with cord blood banks, collecting valuable stem cells from the umbilical cord and placenta.

These cells may potentially be used later in that person's life to create and regenerate organs, blood, and tissues; and assist their immune system.

First broadcast in 2016

Further information

Lisa's story features in Paula Heelan's book, Australian Midwives, published by Harlequin

Earlier this year Lisa published her memoir The Accidental Midwife This episode of Conversations explores childbirth, delivering babies, midwives, mothers, still birth, adoption, remote Australia, PNG, Timor Leste, hospitals, doctors, fathers, babies, placenta, pregnancy, nursing.

As we're bombarded with the drumbeat of news that veers from the shocking to the unfathomable, Waleed Aly wants to know, how do we come to grips with this chaos?For years, that is exactly what Waleed Aly has done by writing a series of columns for Melbourne's Age newspaper.

Recently he's revisited the columns written during a concentrated period of profound upheaval, to see what they reveal.Waleed hopes to articulate what is revolutionary in this moment but also what is not, to examine our changing relationships with technology and each other; and identifying the things that really matter in life even as the upheaval tries to obscure them.

Further information

Reasoning With Chaos is published by Allen and Unwin

This episode of Conversations explores Donald Trump, US politics, global politics, war, artificial intelligence, anger, protest, global chaos, news, social media, politics, global collapse, China, the United States, Australia, media.To binge even more great episodes of the Conversations podcast with Richard Fidler and Sarah Kanowski go the ABC listen app (Australia) or wherever you get your podcasts. There you’ll find hundreds of the best thought-provoking interviews with authors, writers, artists, politicians, psychologists, musicians, and celebrities.

When journalist Jon Ronson visited castle owned by a digital tycoon, it became a portal into a world of disaffected men, grasping for purpose online in a world where traditional institutions are collapsing.

He had received a series of texts from his son Joel, after he was lured to a mysterious castle in the forests of New England late one night, and those texts set him off into an investigation of the modern manosphere.

Jon began to investigate the wider ‘man crisis’ – where some are feeling tossed around in a sea of conflicting ideologies of what it means to be a man today.

From the death of utopian factory towns to the false promise of YouTube influencer culture, Jon shows us our rapidly changing world like never before, and the men caught in the middle.

He found a world drained of purpose, of collapsing institutions, in which a new era of disinhibited behaviour has taken hold of our online and real-world selves.

The Castle is published by Penguin.

Jon is currently on tour in Australia. He is speaking at The Melbourne Town Hall this weekend.

This episode of Conversations was produced by Meggie Morris. Executive Producer is Nicola Harrison.

It explores masculinity, culture wars, gender wars, Musk, Trump, tech billionaires, Marc Fennell, manosphere, Louis Theroux, Peter Thiel, Hugh Hefner, Dan Bilzerian, Andrew Tate, Chris Mark, the castle, sons, fathers, fatherhood, death threats, murderers, ChaptGPT, AI, Google Gemini, Artificial intelligence, psychopaths, Zuckerberg, Argentina, anger, disenfranchised men, angry men, ICE, United States, Donald Trump, Nerd Reich, politics, silicon valley, gender wars, class war, race war, Louise Theroux, investigative journalism.

To binge even more great episodes of the Conversations podcast with Richard Fidler and Sarah Kanowski go the ABC listen app (Australia) or wherever you get your podcasts. There you’ll find hundreds of the best thought-provoking interviews with authors, writers, artists, politicians, psychologists, musicians, and celebrities.

When school principal Manisha Gazula changed how her students were learning to read, she began an entirely new system which made her an icon of literacy learning.

Manisha Gazula is the principal of Marsden Road Public School in the outer south-western suburbs of Sydney.

When Manisha first came to the school, less than three per cent of its students were proficient in English reading and writing, which severely limited their options in life.

This was for many reasons - some children had never seen a book or held a pencil until they were ten years old, almost all of them didn't speak English at home, many came from refugee backgrounds, and Manisha was convinced that the conventional way of teaching literacy was not working.

So she introduced a new system that delivered much more explicit instruction in the elements of reading and writing.

It was a controversial change that made her first few years at Marsden Road tough, but the result was a radical improvement in student literacy, and now many other schools are following 'the Marsden Way'.

This episode of Conversations was produced by Meggie Morris. Executive Producer was Carmel Rooney.

It explores literacy rates, Australian education system, NSW education system, public schooling in NSW, state schools, private schools, learning to read, my child doesn't like reading, Indian Australians, career change, motherhood, migrating to Australia, NAPLAN, standardised testing, books, ESL, English as a second language, the Australian curriculum, Marsden method, explicit instruction.

To binge even more great episodes of the Conversations podcast with Richard Fidler and Sarah Kanowski go the ABC listen app (Australia) or wherever you get your podcasts. There you’ll find hundreds of the best thought-provoking interviews with authors, writers, artists, politicians, psychologists, musicians, and celebrities.

Psychologist Kerrie Lumbewe on trying to unpack what has happened inside ordinary people that has made loving one another so difficult.

Kerrie Lumbewe is a psychologist who specialises in love and relationships.

She spends her days sitting with people as they try and work out how to make things work; to understand how they can be in a partnership and still feel so alone; to make sense of how two people who started out crazy about each other can end up making each other crazy.

These people desperately want to stop hurting one another, but are also obsessed with finding someone to blame, or labelling someone else as toxic.

Kerrie has witnessed many personal accounts of love and desire, heartbreak, secrets and betrayal.

She has seen up close what allows relationships to flourish, or to fold; and how ordinary people can start making sense of love.

And Kerrie says our unfettered access to social media in the age of information is drastically changing how we relate to and love each other.

Kerrie's forthcoming book is called The Five Fatal Love Errors: How We Protect Ourselves – and Lose Each Other. It will be published in early 2027.

If you'd like to learn more about how you love, you can visit Kerrie's website and take a quiz.

This episode of Conversations was produced by Meggie Morris. Executive Producer is Nicola Harrison.

It explores love, relationships, counselling, couples counselling, marriage, divorce, therapy, psychology, break-ups, heartbreak, pursuer distancer dynamic, separation, chase, situationship, modern love, modern relationships, dating apps, dopamine, instagram therapy, weaponising therapy language, Orna Guralnik, Gottman method, love maps, attachment theory, avoidant, anxious attachment, secure attachment, prison psychology, friendship, emotional intimacy, suicide, losing a parent, grief, mental health.

To binge even more great episodes of the Conversations podcast with Richard Fidler and Sarah Kanowski go the ABC listen app (Australia) or wherever you get your podcasts. There you’ll find hundreds of the best thought-provoking interviews with authors, writers, artists, politicians, psychologists, musicians, and celebrities.

When author Bonnie Garmus tried to sell her first novel, it was rejected 98 times, but then at 66, she wrote a novel called Lessons in Chemistry, which sold four million copies around the world.

Bonnie had wanted to be a novelist since she was five years old.

Decades later, she was a copywriter, an open-water swimmer and a rower when she tried to sell her first novel.

After many rejections, she realised it would never be published.

One day Bonnie was at work when a male colleague took credit for one of her ideas. In a moment of anger, she then started writing a novel which would become Lessons in Chemistry.

Set in the 1950s and early '60s, it tells the story of Elizabeth Zott, a chemist and mother who hosts a cooking show that ends up teaching women about a lot more than food.

Bonnie was 66 years old when it was published.

The book has resonated with millions of readers around the world and inspired men and women to change their own lives.

First broadcast in 2024

Further information

Lessons in Chemistry is published by Penguin

Bonnie's latest book is Peck and Peck

This episode of Conversations was produced by Nicola Harrison and Carmel Rooney was the Executive Producer.

It explores writing, books, anger, women in the work place, rejection, success, publishing, Lessons in Chemistry, female characters, Elizabeth Zott, motherhood, cooking, chemistry.

To binge even more great episodes of the Conversations podcast with Richard Fidler and Sarah Kanowski go the ABC listen app (Australia) or wherever you get your podcasts. There you’ll find hundreds of the best thought-provoking interviews with authors, writers, artists, politicians, psychologists, musicians, and celebrities.

Zoe Terakes is a writer and actor with deep family connections to the island of Crete, where their great-grandparents migrated to Australia from.

This island is the site of Europe’s first ancient civilisation.

Bronze Age Crete had palaces, temples, art, written language and mythology long before the Roman Empire existed, and centuries before the Parthenon was built.

When Zoe started reading the mythology of Crete they were astounded by how many of the tales involve mutability, metamorphosis, the transformation of this into that; from human to bird to lion and to human again – and from male to female and from female to male.

Zoe has retold some of these wild stories of blood, sex, love, divinity, humanity and magical transformations in their first book.

But the trans actor, who underwent their own transformation a few years ago, did not want to sanitise any of these ancient stories to make them more palatable for the contemporary audience.

Because, for Zoe, the power and enduring relevance of these epics is found in their tragedy, violence and mess.

Eros: Queer Myths for Lovers is published by Hachette.

This episode of Conversations was produced by Meggie Morris. Executive Producer is Nicola Harrison.

It explores myth, storytelling, poetry, art, transgender, non-binary, gender identity, sexual identity, young Australians, Australian literature, Australian writers, acting, television, Marvel Universe, Sydney, Kings Cross, Greece, Crete, Talk To Me, film, Australian film, growing up in Sydney, growing up Queer.

To binge even more great episodes of the Conversations podcast with Richard Fidler and Sarah Kanowski go the ABC listen app (Australia) or wherever you get your podcasts. There you’ll find hundreds of the best thought-provoking interviews with authors, writers, artists, politicians, psychologists, musicians, and celebrities.

Anthony talks about his turbulent childhood in Adelaide, escaping to a cocaine-fuelled New York in the 1980s to begin his life as an actor, and how writing his memoir helped him forgive his parents.

Anthony grew up in the suburbs of Adelaide, in a house full of rage, disappointment and violence.He spent as much time as he could alone, reading books, watching classic Hollywood movies, and dreaming of another life.For a while he thought soccer might be his ticket to escape Adelaide, but it turned out to be acting when he moved to New York in the 1980s.

Anthony has won a Golden Globe for his work in the crime drama Without a Trace, an Emmy for the comedy Frasier and multiple Australian awards for his roles in films including Lantana and Looking for Alibrandi

He was also the first Australian to win a Tony award for his performance in a Broadway revival of the Arthur Miller play, A View from a Bridge.

Anthony’s memoir is The Life We ChooseFurther Information

The Life We Choose is published by HarperCollins

This episode of Conversations was produced by Jen Leake, the Executive Producer is Nicola Harrison.

It explores acting, family, Italian migration, Adelaide, selling shoes, soccer, theatre, New York, Hollywood, memoir, therapy, violence, aggression, YouTube, 1980s, divorce, cocaine, Arthur Miller, Death of a Salesman, movies.

To binge even more great episodes of the Conversations podcast with Richard Fidler and Sarah Kanowski go the ABC listen app (Australia) or wherever you get your podcasts. There you’ll find hundreds of the best thought-provoking interviews with authors, writers, artists, politicians, psychologists, musicians, and celebrities.

Fashion designer Jenny Kee co-created a whole new era in Australian fashion in the 1970s. But nothing could have prepared her for her own next chapter.

Jenny was born in Bondi in the 1950s, and left Australia for London when she was young.

She began selling vintage clothes at the Chelsea markets, where she attracted attention for her stall and her brilliant style.

When she returned to Australia in the early 70s Jenny met a gifted couturier named Linda Jackson.

Together they embarked on a passionate creative partnership which began a unique and utterly Australian art and fashion movement.

Their clothes were made in wild colours and beautiful fabric, often festooned with images of native flowers and plants.

In the 1980s they took their designs to the world and were feted by Italian Vogue's Anna Piaggi and Chanel's Karl Lagerfeld.

In addition to all her achievements in fashion, Jenny's life has also been crowded with dramatic moments.

Her life story is even more incandescent than her wardrobe.

Further information

Help and support is always available.

If this conversation has been difficult to hear you can contact Beyond Blue on 1300 22 46 36 or chat to them via their website

When Edith Wright discovered the turbulent history of her great-grandfathers, who were some of the founders of the pearling industry in the waters off Broome, she knew she had to write down the storyEdith is a Bardi Jawi woman from the saltwater country of Western Australia’s Dampier Peninsula.

When she was a little girl growing up in the Kimberley, her dad would tell her stories about his two European grandfathers.

Both men were pioneers in W.A's pearling industry, which required the skill - and forced labour - of Aboriginal people.

After many years spent researching her dad's stories, Edith has come to a new understanding of her family's complicated legacy.

Further information

The Burden and the Blessing is published by Magabala Books

Read more about the history of the W.Apearling industry

This episode of Conversations was produced by Elizabeth Kulas and the executive producer is Nicola Harrison.

Dasha Ross tells the story of her bizarre brush with memory loss and what happened when she and her husband decided to takeover a rundown beachside hotel in Sri Lanka.

Dasha has lived a life full of adventures, from nude modelling in Sydney and making films in Brazil, to renovating a nightclub in Harlem with a baby on her hip.

But Dasha's most epic escapades were with her beloved husband John Pinder, including the time the two of them took up a surprising offer to revamp and manage a beachside hotel in Sri Lanka.

Things did not go as planned as they battled typhoons, demanding guests and a meddling, possibly murderous, manager.

First broadcast in 2024

Further information

Dasha Ross' memoir, Big Trouble Coming is published by Valentine Press

This episode of Conversations was produced by Meggie Morris, the executive producer is Nicola Harrison.

Anthony “The Mooch” Scaramucci on his childhood, becoming a success on Wall Street and why backing Trump was a colossal error.Anthony grew up on Long Island, part of a large Italian-American community and far away from the world of money, power and influence. When he was accepted into a prestigious university, Anthony’s parents put their retirements savings on the line to make sure he was able to go.

After graduating from Harvard Law School, he began his career on Wall Street, then into political fundraising as a way to network and meet new clients.

Famously, he would come to global notoriety when he was fired 11 days into his stint as White House spokesman during Donald Trump’s first term as US President.Since then he has distanced himself from Trump and the MAGA movement and built a reputation as a sharp observer of US politics.Anthony's latest book All the Wrong Moves: how three catastrophic decisions led to the rise of Trump is published by Penguin.

This episode of Conversations was produced by Jen Leake, the Executive Producer is Nicola Harrison.

It explores US politics, US history, Italian migration to American, poverty, Pennsylvania, Long Island, sand mining, family, middle class America, working class, elite universities, Harvard Law School, Wall Street, Goldman Sachs, Donald Trump, The White House, getting fired, MAGA, the Republican Party, Barack Obama,

When Robin Bailey’s husband and father of their three boys died by suicide, she had to figure out the best way to help her children work through their grief while also managing her own sadness and anger. (CW: this episode discusses suicide, please take care when listening)Robin is one of Brisbane’s best-known breakfast radio hosts, and she’s been in the business for decades.

When she was 11, Robin’s father died suddenly, and her mother was left to raise Robin and her sister while forging on with her own career.Decades later another tragedy forced Robin into single parenting, after her husband Tony died by suicide.

In the aftermath of Tony’s death Robin was determined to make space for all her son’s feelings and their questions as they worked through their grief.

With the help of incredible community of friends, she knitted a family back together which was strong enough to face what came next.

Further information

Robin Bailey's memoir Flamingos Aren't Born Pink is published by Harper Collins

Help and support is always available

If you need to talk, 24/7 crisis support is available from Lifeline by calling 13 11 14.

More options for mental health and suicide prevention helplines and websites are hereThis episode of Conversations was produced by Jen Leake, the executive producer is Nicola Harrison

It explores suicide, grief, death, family, marriage, children, depression, mental health, community, counsellors, pastoral care, losing a parent, travel, radio, commercial radio, maternity leave, financial pressure, cancer, terminal cancer, dying at home, single mothers, sons, daughters, weddings.To binge even more great episodes of the Conversations podcast with Richard Fidler and Sarah Kanowski go the ABC listen app (Australia) or wherever you get your podcasts. There you’ll find hundreds of the best thought-provoking interviews with authors, writers, artists, politicians, psychologists, musicians, and celebrities.

Dr Culum Brown's work on fish cognition has proven fish have long memories, sharks have friends, and sting rays know it's the weekend.

Dr Culum Brown is a leading researcher in the field of fish cognition. He's based at Macquarie University where he runs the Fish Lab — the Behaviour, Ecology and Evolution of Fishes Laboratory.

His fascination for fish stems from growing up in parts of south-east Asia, where he would spend every possible hour in the ocean with a snorkel.

As an adult, Culum's marine biology studies around the world (including the UK and Finland) have revealed many facts which up-end the basis of our common understanding of fish.

His research has shown that even the smallest fish are capable of learning and can retain memories for months.

Within schools of fish, there is often a strict social hierarchy which can include forms of bullying.

His research into Port Jackson sharks has revealed a lot about their social lives as 'puppies of the sea'.

He work has also revealed that sting rays have especially good memories and can distinguish days of the week.

Learn more about Culum's work at The Fish Lab.

First broadcast in 2020.

This episode of Conversations explores

Broadcaster and author Dee Salmin on how her parents' epic love story and dramatic relationship shaped her understanding of love and men; and how she eventually found healthy romance in life.

When Dee was growing up in Perth, her father, a great Russian ballet dancer, was ‘the man of the house’.

Life at home, and every choice that Dee, her siblings, and her mum made revolved around his whims and his moods.

Dee worshipped her parents and all the opportunities they fought for her to have, so she grew up thinking that is what healthy love looked like.

She sought out a similar dynamic in her own relationships as she got older.

Dee had just moved to Melbourne for her dream job, working on Triple J’s sex and relationships program The Hook Up, when she found herself living alone in lockdown.

During that time, Dee got to know herself outside romantic relationships and began the process of dismantling what she thought she knew about love and hook-up culture.

For three years, she went ‘boy sober’ and spent time getting to know herself, instead of another Lothario who played guitar. She fell in love with her friends, and the life she’d made for herself.

And then, her father, who had done his own self-reflection, suggested the whole family sit down together so he could apologise and heal.

It's Not Love, Actually is published by Pan Macmillan.

This episode of Conversations was produced by Meggie Morris. Executive Producer is Nicola Harrison.

It explores sex, love, relationships, dating apps, hook-up culture, intergenerational trauma, parenting, healing relationship with parents, self love, self worth, self esteem, modern dating, boy sober, abstinence, books, writing, ballet, Russia, Soviet Union, Berlin, Germany, shot gun wedding, falling in love fast, red flags, green flags, dating slowly, car crash, friendship, romance, hopeless romantic, self-help books, Darcy Moore, Collingwood, AFL, dads and daughters.

To binge even more great episodes of the Conversations podcast with Richard Fidler and Sarah Kanowski go the ABC listen app (Australia) or wherever you get your podcasts. There you’ll find hundreds of the best thought-provoking interviews with authors, writers, artists, politicians, psychologists, musicians, and celebrities.

Mimi Kwa tells her family’s saga, featuring her dad — the thirty-second child of a wealthy Chinese silk trader, and her mum, who survived decades of undiagnosed schizophrenia, and Mimi's glamorous other life in the intoxicating hubbub of Hong Kong.

Mimi presented the news on ABC and Channel Nine, and worked in the newsroom for more than 20 years.

Today she has four children with her loving husband, John.

This is all a long way from Mimi’s early life in Perth, where she managed backpackers’ rent and cleaning toilets at her father’s sprawling youth hostel from the age of eight.

Then she would shuttle over to her grandparents’ house in the suburbs, where her mum, who lived with chronic schizophrenia, would do her best to love Mimi, despite her paranoia.

Mimi had yet another life, in Hong Kong, where she would visit her relatives, and stay with her loving, steady, glamorous Aunty Theresa, who adored her.

Mimi had to synthesise all these parts to grow herself up and become what she had always wanted to be: on telly, reading the news.

And once she succeeded in her dream of journalism, she would need all the strength she could get when she unknowingly ambushed Russell Crowe at the airport.

Further information

Help is always available. You can call Lifeline on 13 11 14, text on 0477 13 11 14, chat online, or speak to an Aboriginal or Torres Strait Islander Crisis Supporter at 13 YARN (13 92 76).

House of Kwa is published by HarperCollins ABC Books.

This episode was made on Gadigal country. It was produced by Alice Moldovan. The Executive Producer was Nicola Harrison.

It covers Hong Kong, World War II, Japanese occupation, occupation, Perth, Mandarin Gardens, racism, trauma, grandparent carers, mental health ward, ECT, big age gap, Channel Nine, cadetship, Russel Crowe, Gladiator, Romper Stomper, contested will, inheritance, suing family, reconciliation, forgiveness and gratitude.

To binge even more great episodes of the Conversations podcast with Richard Fidler and Sarah Kanowski go the ABC listen app (Australia) or wherever you get your podcasts. There you’ll find hundreds of the best thought-provoking interviews with authors, writers, artists, politicians, psychologists, musicians, and celebrities.

Mimi Kwa tells her family’s saga, featuring her dad — the thirty-second child of a wealthy Chinese silk trader, and her mum, who survived decades of undiagnosed schizophrenia, and Mimi's glamorous other life in the intoxicating hubbub of Hong Kong. (CW: Discussion of mental illness and suicide attempt)

Mimi presented the news on ABC and Channel Nine, and worked in the newsroom for more than 20 years.

Today she has four children with her loving husband, John.

This is all a long way from Mimi’s early life in Perth, where she managed backpackers’ rent and cleaning toilets at her father’s sprawling youth hostel from the age of eight.

Then she would shuttle over to her grandparents’ house in the suburbs, where her mum, who lived with chronic schizophrenia, would do her best to love Mimi, despite her paranoia.

Mimi had yet another life, in Hong Kong, where she would visit her relatives, and stay with her loving, steady, glamorous Aunty Theresa, who adored her.

Mimi had to synthesise all these parts to grow herself up and become what she had always wanted to be: on telly, reading the news.

And once she succeeded in her dream of journalism, she would need all the strength she could get when she unknowingly ambushed Russell Crowe at the airport.

Further information

Help is always available. You can call Lifeline on 13 11 14, text on 0477 13 11 14, chat online, or speak to an Aboriginal or Torres Strait Islander Crisis Supporter at 13 YARN (13 92 76).

House of Kwa is published by HarperCollins ABC Books.

This episode was made on Gadigal country. It was produced by Alice Moldovan. The Executive Producer was Nicola Harrison.

It covers Hong Kong, World War II, Japanese occupation, occupation, Perth, Mandarin Gardens, racism, trauma, grandparent carers, mental health ward, ECT, big age gap, Channel Nine, cadetship, Russel Crowe, Gladiator, Romper Stomper, contested will, inheritance, suing family, reconciliation, forgiveness and gratitude.

To binge even more great episodes of the Conversations podcast with Richard Fidler and Sarah Kanowski go the ABC listen app (Australia) or wherever you get your podcasts. There you’ll find hundreds of the best thought-provoking interviews with authors, writers, artists, politicians, psychologists, musicians, and celebrities.

Mick won three world surfing titles, and famously fought off a great white shark in South Africa. But his life out of the water has been threaded through with devastating loss, after the death of his three older brothers. (CW: loss and grief)

Mick Fanning grew up on the Gold Coast in a raucous, loving family of five kids, raised by his mum Elizabeth, a nurse who worked night shift.

He and his brother Sean were talented young grommets who dreamed of becoming professional surfers. Then at 16, Mick got a phone call.

He was going to be sponsored by Quiksilver, to the tune of $30 000 a year. The money was enough to change Mick's life, and he was able to help his mum out financially for the first time.

But just as Mick's star was on the rise, his family suffered the most devastating loss. His brother Sean was killed in a terrible accident on the way home from an 18th birthday party.

After being out of the water for a time, Mick started surfing again, and soon began to rise up the ranks. Eventually he would win three world titles. But so many of the career highs were threaded through with grief, as Mick and his family endured the premature deaths of two more of his brothers, Peter and Ed.

Peter died unexpectedly, and Ed died after a cut on his leg from a coral reef in Madagascar.

In 2015, Mick was catapulted into a kind of fame he never wanted when he punched a great white shark which grabbed his leg rope, live on TV in the middle of a surfing contest at Jeffrey Bay in South Africa.

More than a decade on Mick has retired from surfing, and he's leaning into the many joys of raising his young family with his wife Brianna.

All Heart is published by Simon and Schuster.

Help and support is always available by calling Lifeline on 13 11 14. They are available 24 hours a day.

This episode of Conversations was produced by Elizabeth Kulas. Executive Producer is Nicola Harrison.

It explores surfing, shark attacks, WSL, World Surf League, Margaret River Pro, Bondi, Newcastle, J Bay, grief, masculinity, death, accidents, tragic accidents, losing siblings, sibling loss, great white shark, professional athletes, elite athletes, single mothers, nurses, memoir, writing, books, Australian sporting icons, sporting legends, origin stories, love, relationships, fatherhood, psychics, mediums, Rip Curl, Quicksilver, Billabong, surf brands, learning to surf, Australian surf sports.

Journalist Rick Morton on how his mum raised three children in poverty and the class disparities in Australia.

Rick's family come from the vast country of Outback Queensland, near the Birdsville Track.

His grandfather, George Morton, was a wealthy landholder and he ruled over his family like a tyrant.

When Rick was little, a terrible accident was followed by the break-up of his family and Rick, his mum, and his two siblings were driven out of the family home into crippling poverty.

This led Rick to think deeply about the true nature of poverty in our country, how hard it is to thrive when you're bumping along from week to week.

After high school he decided to get into journalism and became a social affairs writer at The Australian newspaper.

Rick's memoir is called a 100 Years of Dirt This episode was first broadcast in 2018.

Further information

Rick now lives in Paris and writes about his life in a newsletter called Nervous Laughterhttps://rick-morton.ghost.io/100 Years of Dirt is published by MUP