Coursing Justice Podcast

Robert is joined by returning guest Kathleen Nolan and Patty Saunders, executive director of Hero's Haven Child Advocacy Center, for a bonus Halloween episode recorded in the basement below Hero's Haven in Clarksburg, West Virginia. The building has been a bank, a hotel, and possibly a makeshift hospital, and its staff say not everyone checked out. Pull up a chair for Stan and Dan, an elevator that only goes to the basement, a rental car with phantom backseat passengers, and a hotel door that kept pounding with no one on the other side. Also: fake blood that sent a new maintenance man to the police, and why a world without CACs is the scariest story of all.

Content note: This episode includes brief, non-graphic references to child abuse investigations and to staged crime scenes from training simulations.

Want to learn more?

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Support Hero's Haven Child Advocacy Center in Clarksburg, West Virginia.

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For more training, our free Justice in 30 webinars, and CaseReady MDT simulations, visit https://www.coursingjustice.com.

Full transcript and episode resources at https://www.coursingjustice.com/podcast. Note: transcripts are AI-generated and may contain errors.

Reverend Carrie Nettles became the nation's first Children's Advocacy Center chaplain in 2016 and has spent nearly a decade showing what spiritual care can do for children, families, and the professionals who serve them. She and Robert talk about why "Why did God let this happen?" deserves to be honored rather than answered, how rushed calls to forgive add new injury, and what a CAC chaplain actually does day to day. They also take on the moral injury the field is carrying after sweeping funding cuts, and why silence is still a choice. Also: forgiveness as "the F-bomb," a sabbatical spent with every philosopher in history, and why Carrie rewatches The West Wing.

Content note: This episode includes discussion of child sexual abuse, spiritual abuse, religious trauma, child fatality cases, pregnancy loss, and moral injury.

Want to learn more?

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When Faith Hurts, the Julie Valentine Center's spiritual care resource

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For more training, our free Justice in 30 webinars, and CaseReady MDT simulations, visit https://www.coursingjustice.com.

Full transcript and episode resources at https://www.coursingjustice.com/podcast. Note: transcripts are AI-generated and may contain errors.

Kathleen Nolan has prosecuted child abuse, child torture, and child homicide cases in Illinois since 2006, with a four-year stretch training prosecutors and MDTs nationwide. She and Robert dig into what the public and MDT partners get wrong about prosecutors, the gap between believing a child and proving a case, and why defense experts have become the rule in abusive head trauma trials. They also talk about child death cases, protecting jurors from secondary trauma, and what prosecuting through COVID taught her about reading a jury. Also: CAC ghost stories, why rural prosecutors avoid the local Subway, a pro bono attorney with "unlimited resources," and a mock crime scene with a little too much fake blood.

Content note: This episode includes discussion of child sexual abuse, child physical abuse, child death and homicide investigations, abusive head trauma, autopsy and forensic evidence, child sexual abuse material, and human trafficking.

Want to learn more?

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Kathleen's Coursing Justice trainings on trial strategy, child death, and abusive head trauma

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For more training, our free Justice in 30 webinars, and CaseReady MDT simulations, visit https://www.coursingjustice.com.

Full transcript and episode resources at https://www.coursingjustice.com/podcast. Note: transcripts are AI-generated and may contain errors.

Alison Sutherland has moved through nearly every seat at the MDT table — CPS investigator, forensic interviewer, victim advocate, juvenile court liaison, Children's Advocacy Center educator, and founder of the prevention organization Prevention Starts with Parents. She and Robert dig into her earliest days as a Georgia DFCS investigator, the sensory core memories that never fade, and the situational-awareness lessons — meth pipes, an unexpected shotgun — that came from learning on the job. They also unpack how minimal facts interviewing actually works, why so much CPS training misses the mark, and why the systemic problems of the 1980s still look a lot like 2026. Also: a Jesus juke, a live AI-generated banter question, and Alison's lasting grudge against a two-day training called Verbal Judo.

Content note: This episode includes discussion of child sexual abuse, incest, sibling-on-sibling sexual abuse, child abuse and neglect, substance abuse, and exposure to firearms in the home.

Want to learn more?

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Explore Alison's free resources at Prevention Starts with Parents, including guides on sextortion prevention and talking with your child about disclosure.

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For more training, our free Justice in 30 webinars, and CaseReady MDT simulations, visit https://www.coursingjustice.com.

Full transcript and show notes available at https://www.coursingjustice.com/podcast. Note: transcripts are AI-generated and may contain errors.

Debbie Garner spent eight years as Special Agent in Charge of the GBI's Child Exploitation and Computer Crimes Unit and Georgia ICAC Task Force commander, with 2,500+ arrests to her name. In this emergency episode, she joins Robert to unpack the Seventh Circuit's Anderegg decision, holding that private possession of AI-generated CSAM is protected by the First Amendment. They trace the doctrine through Ashcroft v. Free Speech Coalition and New York v. Ferber, and explain why the "market substitute" theory misreads offender psychology and ignores new evidence that CSAM has entered AI training data. Also: an AI-generated Dr. Seuss send-up of Ashcroft, a defense of the "nerd cop," and a closing Lord of the Rings quote.

Content note: This episode discusses child sexual abuse material (CSAM), AI-generated CSAM, child sexual exploitation, and grooming, in more depth than our regular programming. Listener discretion is strongly advised.

Want to learn more?

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Follow Hexordia, where Robert and Debbie both instruct.

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For more training, our free Justice in 30 webinars, and CaseReady MDT simulations, visit coursingjustice.com.

Full transcript and episode resources at https://www.coursingjustice.com/podcast. Note: transcripts are AI-generated and may contain errors.

Hannah Fordice has worked victim advocacy from nearly every angle — a domestic violence crisis line, victim witness coordination in the courts, and training faith communities on intimate partner violence. She joins Robert to talk about who's cut out for advocacy work and who isn't, the boundaries that keep advocates from burning out, and why domestic violence cases are so often under-investigated and under-prosecuted. Also: savior complexes, nonprofit board dysfunction, and what it's like to be an advocate married to a cop.

Content note: This episode includes discussion of domestic violence, intimate partner violence, child abuse, sexual assault, and spiritual abuse.

Want to learn more?

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Take Hannah's course, Godly Response to Intimate Partner Violence.

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For more training, our free Justice in 30 webinars, and CaseReady MDT simulations, visit https://www.coursingjustice.com.

Full transcript and episode resources at https://www.coursingjustice.com/podcast. Note: transcripts are AI-generated and may contain errors.

Detective Brandon Poor has spent 20 years in law enforcement, including a decade-plus investigating crimes against children and building his department's ICAC unit. He joins Robert to talk about integrity as the foundation of police work, why CSAM cases are wrongly treated as victimless, what he wishes other MDT members understood about the detective's role, and the two-minute decision that proved a child was telling the truth. Also: opera, jujitsu, and a live reaction to an AI-generated theme song.

Content note: This episode includes discussion of child sexual abuse, child sexual abuse material, child exploitation, child death and homicide investigations, and suicide.

Want to learn more?

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Explore our training catalog for courses on child abuse investigation and prosecution.

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For more training, our free Justice in 30 webinars, and CaseReady MDT simulations, visit https://www.coursingjustice.com.

Full transcript and episode resources at https://www.coursingjustice.com/podcast. Note: transcripts are AI-generated and may contain errors.