Deviate

“That's part of the fun of travel. Methodically crossing items off a Bucket List is less exciting than reimagining things as you go. It makes your life's journey part of an ongoing conversation rather than just a static list of things to be crossed off.” – Rolf Potts

In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Jamin talk about how Rolf travels differently now that he's married to Kiki, and how his relationship to home has transformed as well (2:00); how travel changes at different phases of one's life, how travel shouldn't be a competitive pursuit, and where Rolf has yet to travel (8:30); how The Vagabond's Way has an older sensibility than Vagabonding, and what travel teaches you about fear and boredom (18:00); the travel metaphors embedded in The Odyssey, places Rolf might not return to, and what travel teaches you about faith traditions (27:00); good international places to begin journeys, and what a lifetime of travel can teach you about home (36:00).

Jamin Coller hosts the If I'm Really Honest podcast.

Notable Links:

• The Odyssey(2026 film)
• Vagabonding, by Rolf Potts (book)
• Hero's journey (ancient narrative template)
• José Ortega y Gasset(Spanish philosopher)
• Richard Rohr(priest and spiritual writer)
• Falkland Islands (Islas Malvinas)
• The Vagabond's Way, by Rolf Potts (book)
• Desert Fathers (early Christian hermits and ascetics)
• The Entertainment System Is Down (upcoming moive)
• The Geography of Mourning, by Rolf Potts (essay)
• Syncretism(merged belief systems)
• Siberut (island near Sumatra)
• Trojan Horse (mythological war strategy)
• Nolan's Odyssey Softens the Original Epic (article)
• Paris Writing Workshops (Rolf's annual writing classes)
• Chiang Mai (city in Thailand)
• Arctic Circle Trail(hiking trail in Greenland)
• Zacatecas (region in Mexico)
• Adventurers' Club of Los Angeles (private social club)

The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel’s 2017 album Lumber.

Note: We don’t host a “comments” section, but we’re happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.

“Las Vegas is hard to capture in art without leaning on cliche. The movie Casino doesn't lean on cliche because it created the cliche. The Hangover created the cliche for this next generation. Culture is is causing people to act a certain way when they get to Las Vegas.” – Tod Goldberg

In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Tod talk about how movies can "totalize" places like Las Vegas, depicting "The Strip" at the expense of other parts of the city (3:00); the way that the real Las Vegas is full of deeply weird places and people, while still being an amalgamation of American culture in general (8:00); bygone hotels and attractions and the "lack institutional memory" in Las Vegas, as well as what social classes of people are attracted to the city (16:00); the kinds of movies that have been made about Las Vegas, the cliches they entail, and what they imply about how (and where) the city should be experienced (25:00); what Las Vegas is like outside of (and in tandem with) the narrative cliches that have come to define it (39:00); how major league sports teams and Formula One racing have changed Las Vegas, and what movies about the city might look like in the future (46:00).

Novelist Tod Goldberg is the New York Times bestselling author of over a dozen books, most notably the Gangsterland series of crime novels. He is also the producer, along with Martin Scorsese and Brian Koppelman, for The Roman, an upcoming Las Vegas casino drama series at Netflix.

Notable Links:

• Kansas Never Plays Itself(video essay)
• Souvenir, by Rolf Potts (book)
• The joys of Jane’s Addiction (Deviate episode)
• Las Vegas Strip (tourist gambling area)
• The Last Showgirl(2024 movie)
• Leaving Las Vegas (1995 movie)
• The Godfather Part II (1974 movie)
• Casino(1995 movie)
• About Sunny (2011 movie)
• Dave Hickey(art critic)
• The Hangover(2009 movie)
• Las Vegas Chinatown (district)
• What Happens Here, Stays Here (2003 Las Vegas ad campaign)
• Swingers (1996 movie)
• Star Trek: The Experience (former attraction in Las Vegas)
• SEMA auto show (annual car accessory show in Las Vegas)
• Odyssey: Driving Around the World (auto expedition Rolf wrote about)
• Grosse Pointe Blank (1997 movie)
• City Cast Las Vegas(podcast)
• Class: A Guide Through the American Status System, by Paul Fussell (book)
• Last Vegas (2013 movie)
• Diamonds Are Forever (1971 movie)
• Very Bad Things (1998 movie)
• Fools Rush In (1997 movie)
• Hard Eight(1996 film)
• Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas (1998 movie)
• Naked City, Las Vegas (neighborhood)
• Summerlin (neighborhood)
• Bugsy Siegel(American mobster)
• Sports in the Las Vegas metropolitan area
• Sphere (entertainment venue in Las Vegas)
• Honeymoon in Vegas (1992 movie)
• The Stand, by Stephen King (novel)
• Dragonfish, by Vu Tran (novel)
• Beautiful Children, by Charles Bock (novel)
• "Still D.R.E." (song by rapper Dr. Dre)
• Sassy (1990s teen magazine)

The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel’s 2017 album Lumber.

Note: We don’t host a “comments” section, but we’re happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.

“That first day in Mumbai, there was the slum to the side of us, there were sports cars that would have cost hundreds of thousands of dollars next to people walking with no feet next to 200 people crammed into a bus. Separating those layers in a nuanced way lifts the writing that shows that you've gone there and been respectful of the people who live here.” – Luke Richardson

In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Luke talk about Rolf's earliest travel adventures, why going slowly and spontaneously is the best way to travel, and what it's like to travel during times of natural disaster (2:00); how to write travel stories that are both interesting to the home audience and respectful of local communities, and how some of the best travel narratives are quest narratives (9:00); the tension between truth and possibility in storytelling, Rolf's "stranger than fiction" moments on the road, and narratives that inspired Rolf's early travels (17:30); Luke's adventure novels, and the travels that informed them (28:30); how Luke takes notes and records his adventures on the road, and how he writes about places he's never been (35:00); and Luke's advice for people wanting to write fictional adventure novels (41:00).

Luke Richardson is a traveler, author, and DJ based in England. His adventure novels include The Ark Files, The Atlantis Agenda, and The Giza Protocol. He hosts the Adventure Story Podcast.

Notable Links:

• Paris Writing Workshops (Rolf's annual creative writing classes)
• Jumping freight trains in the Pacific NW (Deviate episode)
• Alexander Supertramp (Into the Wild protagonist Chris McCandless)
• Van Life before #VanLife (Deviate episode)
• Vagabonding, by Rolf Potts (2003 book)
• The WEIRDest People in the World, by Joseph Henrich (2020 book)
• Toura Incognita, by Rolf Potts (2001 article that mentions spirit possession in Laos)
• Brentwood, Los Angeles(wealthy suburb in California)
• Marco Polo Didn't Go There, Rolf Potts (2008 book)
• Martin and Osa Johnson (1920s adventurers and filmmakers)
• Lake Paradise(wilderness area in northern Kenta)
• On the Trans-Siberian Express, by Rolf Potts (1999 essay)
• No Baggage Challenge (Rolf's 2010 round the world journey)
• Apocalypse Not: One Month on the Mekong, by Rolf Potts (1999 essay)
• In medias res (literary device)
• Malekula (island in Vanuatu)
• Kava (psychoactive beverage)
• Bislama (creole language in Vanuatu)
• Mentawai Islands (archipelago near Sumatra)
• Gaita asturiana (Spanish bagpipes used in Cuba)
• Blue Highways, by William Least Heat-Moon (1982 book)
• Video Night in Kathmandu, by Pico Iyer (1988 book)
• Ferris Bueller's Day Off(1986 John Hughes movie)
• Before Sunrise (1995 Richard Linklater movie)
• Lara Croft (protagonist of the Tomb Raider franchise)
• Clive Cussler (adventure novelist)
• Dan Brown (author of thriller novels)

The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel’s 2017 album Lumber.

Note: We don’t host a “comments” section, but we’re happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.

"All writing is trying to destroy a stereotype, and the individual that you're writing about -- the figure in the landscape -- is actually the ideal." —Paul Theroux

Paul Theroux's highly acclaimed novels include Blinding Light, My Other Life, and The Mosquito Coast. His 1975 book The Great Railway Bazaar is credited with revitalizing the genre of literary travel writing, and his more recent travel books include Ghost Train to the Eastern Star, Dark Star Safari, and The Last Train to Zona Verde.

In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Paul talk about Theroux's book Figures in a Landscape, and strategies for writing about the "human architecture of a place" (5:30); the attitude and time-investment required for meaningful travel reportage (20:30); the qualities that determine successful travel writing (25:50); the essential discomforts and obstacles of travel (32:45); the uses and shortcomings of paper maps in developing countries (40:15); and where Paul is traveling next (46:00).

Media mentioned in the 2026 intro

• Deviate Mini-Essays: Creative Free-Writes for Life's Journey (Substack newsletter)
• 6 Travel Podcasts to Inspire Your Next Trip (New York Times article)
• Kansas Never Plays Itself (non-travel Deviate episode)
• 2024 Deviate Super Bowl Special(non-travel Deviate episode)
• A mixtape (of sorts) about mixtapes (non-travel Deviate episode)
• The most 1980s underdog story of the 1980s (non-travel Deviate episode)
• A personal history of my grunge-bandwagon band (non-travel Deviate episode)
• Nine lessons from my failed van-life memoir (non-travel Deviate episode)

Books, articles, and films mentioned

• "Paul Theroux on Blogging, Travel Writing, and 'Three Cups of Tea'" (2011 Atlantic interview)
• The Great Railway Bazaar, by Paul Theroux
• The Mosquito Coast, by Paul Theroux
• The Tao of Travel, by Paul Theroux
• Deep South, by Paul Theroux
• American Notes, by Charles Dickens
• Barbary Shore, by Norman Mailer
• Journey Without Maps, by Graham Greene
• Sea and Sardinia, by D.H. Lawrence
• Travels, by Ibn Battuta
• Travels, by Marco Polo
• Lafcadio Hearn's Japan: An Anthology
• India: A Million Mutinies Now, by V.S. Naipaul
• "Paul Theroux’s Quest to Define Hawaii" (2012 Smithsonian article)
• "Mandalay," by Rudyard Kipling (poem)
• Rashomon (1950 Akira Kurosawa film)
• The Life and Death of Colonel Blimp (1943 film)

People mentioned

• Doris Lessing (novelist and poet)
• Tom Wolfe (author and journalist)
• Robin Williams (actor and comedian)
• Elizabeth Taylor (actress)
• Michael Jackson (singer-songwriter)
• Rod Steiger (actor)
• Mike Nichols (film director)
• Margaret Mead (anthropologist)
• Colin Turnbull (anthropologist)
• Bronislaw Malinowski (anthropologist)

The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel's 2017 album Lumber.

Note: We don’t host a “comments” section, but we're happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.

“"When I was in the third grade my teacher announced to our class that Ronald Reagan had been shot. When she asked if we had questions, I raised my hand and asked her if the Indiana - North Carolina basketball game was still going to happen that night.” – Chuck Klosterman

In this episode of Deviate, Rolf, Chuck, and Michael hypothesize about where in Texas the town of "Dillon" is in the TV show Friday Night Lights (2:30); the role of sports and sports movies in how people perceive Indiana, and which sports fandoms are independent of geography (17:00); sports movies (and hypothetical sports movies) set in Michael's hometown of State College, PA, or Chuck's home-state of North Dakota, or Rolf's hometown of Wichita (27:00); working-class sports cities with bad reputations, and how geography determines the sports stories that are told there (40:00); the inherent placelessness of the NFL Scouting Combine and the Super Bowl, how sports are the last media events where the outcome is truly unknown, and what the best hypothetical scenario is for diehard fans watching a big game (50:00).

Chuck Klosterman is a cultural critic known for analyzing pop culture, sports, and philosophy. He is the author of 13 books, including Sex, Drugs, and Cocoa Puffs, The Nineties, and, most recently, Football.

Michael Weinreb (@MichaelWeinreb) is the author of three sports books, including Bigger Than the Game and Season of Saturdays. His Substack newsletter is called Throwbacks: A Newsletter About Sports History and Culture.

Notable Links:

• Kansas Never Plays Itself(video essay)
• The Rewatchables (Ringer Network podcast)
• Friday Night Lights (TV show)
• Pflugerville, Texas (shooting Location of Friday Night Lights)
• Odessa, Texas (setting of the book Friday Night Lights)
• Friday Night Lights: A Town, a Team, and a Dream (book)
• Friday Night Lights (2004 film)
• Perfect Strangers (TV series)
• Jesse Plemons (actor in Friday Night Lights)
• Hoosiers (1986 movie)
• Bob Knight(Indiana basketball coach from 1971–2000)
• Season on the Brink, by John Feinstein (book)
• Gene Hackman (actor in Hoosiers)
• Woody Hayes (football coach)
• Rudy(1993 film)
• Subway Alumni(NYC Notre Dame fans)
• America's Team (nickname for the Dallas Cowboys)
• Middletown (PBS series about Muncie, Indiana basketball)
• Something for Joey (TV movie)
• Paterno (2018 HBO movie featuring Kiki Bush)
• Three-Man Weave (Chuck Klosterman article about ND basketball game)
• The Slaughter Rule (2002 American coming of age sports movie)
• Hoop Dreams (1994 basketball documentary)
• Downtown Owl(2023 movie)
• Wichita Monrovians(Negro Leagues baseball team)
• Vision Quest(1985 film)
• The Battered Bastards of Baseball (2014 sports documentary)
• How Rolf Ruined the 1990s (Deviate grunge episode)
• Dawg Pound(Cleveland Browns fan section)
• Major League (1989 movie)
• Punk icon Ian MacKaye (Deviate episode)
• Massillon (football-crazed town in Ohio)
• St. Elmo Steak House (restaurant in Indianapolis)
• NFL Scouting Combine (event in Indianapolis)

The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel’s 2017 album Lumber.

Note: We don’t host a “comments” section, but we’re happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.

“A joke is kind of like a little life-lesson in addition to being funny. If your joke is really good, there's a little nugget of truth in it.” – Cedar Van Tassel

In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Cedar discuss why kids want to be paleontologists and astronauts, and the existential "book" Cedar wrote when he was four (2:00); how Cedar got started reading comics, which ones were his favorites, and his own early comics projects (8:00); the golden age of webcomics, and how Appleguy got started (16:00); the world of Appleguy and Beefwood, and its "roadside attraction" and other geographical subplots (24:00); how Cedar went from drawing an Instagram comic to having a book of comics published by a major North American indie comics publisher, and what his creative process looks like (37:30); and Cedar's four pieces of creative advice: 1) Be opportunistic; 2) Give yourself some rules; 3) Don't torture yourself; 4) People will find your interest in something interesting.

Cedar Van Tassel (@appleguy_comix) is the author of Appleguy and Beefwood, which was published by the iconic Montreal comics press Drawn & Quarterly in May of 2026. A lifelong plant and prairie lover, he does work on ecological restoration projects throughout the Great Plains.

Notable Links:

• Seinfeld(TV show)
• Souvenir, by Rolf Potts (book)
• The Misadventures of Wenamun, by Rolf Potts (comic book)
• Paleontology (using fossils to study the past)
• Calvin and Hobbes (daily comic strip)
• The Complete Calvin and Hobbes (comics anthology)
• Scott McCloud(cartoonist and comics theorist)
• The Simpsons (animated TV sitcom)
• Webcomics (comics published directly online)
• Garfield (daily comic strip)
• "The Dark Side of Travel Romance" (Deviate episode)
• Ents (tree humanoids in Lord of the Rings)
• S.P. Dinsmoor's Garden of Eden (roadside attraction in Kansas)
• World's Largest Belt Buckle (roadside attraction in Kansas)
• World's Largest Czech Egg (roadside attraction in Kansas)
• World's Largest Collection of the World's Smallest Versions of the World's Largest Things
• Biggest ball of twine (roadside attraction in Kansas)
• Marshall McLuhan (media theorist)
• Screensaver (computer software)
• AI art(art generated by text-to-image models)

The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel’s 2017 album Lumber.

Note: We don’t host a “comments” section, but we’re happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.

“When we don't foster local filmmaking traditions, we end up making movies about what we think life is like in the cities we do see movies about.” – Jason Bailey

In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Jason talk about how being from Kansas influenced their careers as travel writers and film critics, and the long cultural shadow of The Wizard of Oz (2:30); how Jason's career started by making independent movies in Wichita, what those movies were like, and how he remembers them now (9:00); how many New York movies were shot in Los Angeles in the early part of the 20th century (19:00); how filmmaking moved back to New York during a less-than-glamorous time in the city's history, and how it's important to tell one more story about a place (26:00); and how technology might change the way movies are made and watched in the future (32:00).

Jason Bailey (@jasondashbailey) is an author and film critic, whose writing has appeared in such publications as the New York Times and Rolling Stone. He is the author of six books, including Fun City Cinema: New York City and the Movies that Made It, and Pulp Fiction: The Complete Story of Quentin Tarantino’s Masterpiece.

Notable Links:

• Kansas Never Plays Itself(video essay)
• Celebrating the genius of Pulp Fiction (Deviate episode)
• Joan Didion (American author and essayist)
• Lady Bird (2017 film)
• Fargo (1996 film)
• The Wizard of Oz at Sphere (4D AI film in Las Vegas)
• Alissa Wilkinson (American film critic)
• Richard Brody (American critic)
• Pauline Kael (American critic)
• My Day in the Barrel (1998 Jason Bailey movie)
• Salvage anthropology (method of documenting declining cultures)
• Los Angeles Plays Itself(2003 essay film)
• Actuality film (early type of nonfiction motion picture)
• Martin Scorsese (American filmmaker)
• The Naked City (1948 film)
• Fame (1980 film)
• Jim Jarmusch (American filmmaker)
• John Cassavetes (American filmmaker)
• Media 100 (video editing system)
• Microdrama(serialized short-form online video)
• Mumblecore(subgenre of independent film)

The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel’s 2017 album Lumber.

Note: We don’t host a “comments” section, but we’re happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.

“I asked everyone if they were lonely. All the guys my age said 'no, I'm too busy; too much going on.' When I answer that quickly I'm either lying or it's something I'm afraid of.” – Andrew McCarthy

In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Andrew talk about why Andrew took a USA road trip to reconnect with his friends (2:15); what kinds of friends Andrew sought out, why none of them were public figures, and how loneliness is bad for men's health (8:00); the kinds of men Andrew spoke with in passing on the trip, why Andrew sought out Elvis Presley sites on the road, and how women's friendships differ from men's (17:30); Andrew's takeaways from his road trip, why "showing up" for people is important, and how travel can be the "university of life" (28:00); audience questions about friendships between younger men, the rumored possibility of a St. Elmo's Fire sequel, the task of recording an audiobook, creepy things that happened on the road, and how travel inevitably makes us more open and curious (35:30).

Andrew McCarthy (@AndrewTMcCarthy) is an actor, television director and writer of such books asThe Longest Way Home, Brat and Walking with Sam. His newest book is Who Needs Friends: An Unscientific Examination of Male Friendship Across America.

Notable Links:

• Tips for telling travel stories, with Andrew McCarthy (Deviate episode)
• Paris Writing Workshops (summer learning-vacation classes)
• Travels with Charley in Search of America, by John Steinbeck (book)
• Brat Pack (group of young 1980s actors)
• Elvis Presley Birthplace (museum site in Tupelo, Mississippi)
• Camps Promising to Turn You into an Alpha Male (article)
• Comstock, Texas (incorporated community)
• Joshua Speed (close friend of Abraham Lincoln)
• St. Elmo's Fire (1985 movie)
• Geoff Dyer (English author and travel writer)
• Strawberry Hill (neighborhood in Kansas City, Kansas)
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The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel’s 2017 album Lumber.

Note: We don’t host a “comments” section, but we’re happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.

"I think you have to pick your battles when you're collaborating with people." – Kim Krizan

Kim Krizan (@kimkrizan) is the Oscar-nominated cowriter of the Before Sunrise movies, and the author of Spy in the House of Anaïs Nin.

Notable Links:

• Kim Krizan on the philosophy of Before Sunrise (YouTube video)
• Screenwriting in Paris class, with Kim Krizan(creative writing class)
• Paris Writing Workshops (summer learning-vacation classes)
• Before Sunrise (1995 movie)
• Ethan Hawke (American actor and director)
• Julie Delpy (French actress and director)
• Richard Linklater(American filmmaker)
• Slacker (1990 film)
• Dazed and Confused (1993 film)
• Anaïs Nin(French-American diarist and novelist)
• Reality Bites(1994 movie)
• Robin Wright (American actress)
• Lili Taylor (American actress)
• The Prater(public park in Vienna)
• Waking Life (2001 film)
• Forrest Mallard editing and marketing services
• Kansas Never Plays Itself(video essay by Rolf Potts)

“I wish I loved sports, and particularly football, a lot less than I do. It consumes too much of my memory and too much of my time.” – Chuck Klosterman

In this episode of Deviate, Rolf talks about why he's talking to Chuck Klosterman's former roommate Michael Weinreb about Chuck's book Football, rather than Chuck himself (2:00); football-themed video games, and the difference between emotional and analytical sports fandom (7:00); Pico Iyer's appearance in the movie Marty Supreme, how podcasting has changed the landscape, and how streaming video has become the standard way to watch even high school football (17:00); why going to football games in person is a "pagan" experience of games that is completely different than watching them on TV, and how there's a travel parallel in experiencing distant places in person (24:00); how important the season and the weather is to the experience of football at both the experiential and metaphorical level (32:00); what might become of football, and why it persists as the object of fandom even by people who've never played it (39:00).

Michael Weinreb (@MichaelWeinreb) is the author of three sports books, including Game of Kings; Bigger Than the Game; and Season of Saturdays. He has been a contributing writer for ESPN, The New York Times, Grantland, Rolling Stone, The Athletic, and The Ringer. His Substack newsletter is called Throwbacks: A Newsletter About Sports History and Culture.

Notable Links:

• Kicking & Screaming might be the best movie ever (Deviate episode)
• Back to Penn State (2011 This American Life episode)
• Chuck Klosterman (author and essayist)
• Fargo Rock City, by Chuck Klosterman (2001 book)
• EA Sports College Football(video game)
• Super Bowl LV (game the Chiefs lost to the Buccaneers)
• Super Bowl LIX (game the Chiefs lost to the Eagles)
• A travel writers’ Super Bowl special (Deviate episode)
• Pico Iyer (travel writer and novelist)
• Marty Supreme (2025 sports comedy-drama film)
• Chick Hearn(Los Angeles Lakers announcer)
• Wesley Morris on Deviate
• Bill Simmons (American sportswriter and cultural critic)
• Football History Deep Dive (Bill Simmons Podcast episode)
• 2025 Kansas 1A football championship (high school game video)
• Arrowhead Stadium (venue for Kansas City Chiefs games)
• Communitas(concept of the spirit of community)
• Rick Steves(travel writer and broadcaster)
• Lambeau Field (stadium in Green Bay)
• Friday Night Lights (TV series)
• All the Right Moves(1983 film)
• The Last Boy Scout (1991 film)
• A Fan's Notes, by Frederick Exley (1968 novel)
• Roger Goodell (NFL commissioner)
• Men's 1500m race at the 2016 Olympics (sports results)
• Men's 1500m race at the 2024 Olympics (sports results)
• Electronic Quarterback (1978 Coleco electronic game)
• Jimi Hendrix(American musician)

The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel’s 2017 album Lumber.

Note: We don’t host a “comments” section, but we’re happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.

“In teaching us to appreciate rather than accumulate – to seek awe rather than outcomes – travel can be an ongoing exercise in gratitude.” – Rolf Potts

In this episode of Deviate, Rolf remixes his interview from the All the Hacks podcast, with Chris Hutchins. They discuss the concept of “Time Wealth,” how it can be actualized through travel, and how it can dovetail with your family and life goals (2:00); what kinds of travel-oriented experiences and attitudes and rituals can help you frame and identify your values and life-goals (10:30); how kids can be a window into new places as a traveler, and why slowing down and "seeing less" helps you experience more on the road (27:00); the limitations of planning your travels around a "Bucket List," and the merits of taking a travel attitude to your home environment (35:30); how to pack when traveling light, and how to use technology wisely on the road (45:30).

Chris Hutchins (Instagram:@chrishutchins) is an avid optimizer and host of a top-ranked podcast, where he shares his quest to upgrade his life without having to spend a fortune.

Notable Links:

• The Vagabond's Way, by Rolf Potts (books)
• Kevin Kelly (editor and futurist)
• Lyft (ride-hailing service)
• Die With Zero, by Bill Perkins (book)
• Carrefour (French convenience store)
• Zamalek (area of Cairo, Egypt)
• An Egyptian straight-razor shave in 21 easy steps (video)
• Jackfruit (food)
• Raclette(Swiss dish)
• Père Lachaise (cemetery in Paris)
• Frank Alamo (French singer)
• Paris Writing Workshops (Rolf's writing classes)
• Canton (town in Mississippi)
• Lindsborg, Kansas ("Little Sweden")
• Zacatecas (state in Mexico)
• No Baggage Challenge(Rolf's 2010 no-luggage trip)
• AirTreks (round-the-world and multi-stop flight planner)
• Flâneur(urban wanderer)

The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel’s 2017 album Lumber.

Note: We don’t host a “comments” section, but we’re happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.

In this feature-length video essay that explores the role places play in storytelling, Rolf examines how Kansas -- his home state -- has been imagined, distorted, and mythologized in cinema and television for more than a century.

Blending archival film clips, historical analysis, and deeply personal narration, Kansas Never Plays Itself traces how cinematic shorthand shapes our collective imagination. The video essay invites viewers to reconsider what it means for a location to “play itself” — and what’s lost when the real landscapes and communities behind our most beloved stories remain unseen.

Sneak preview of the video essay is online here.

Chapters:

0:00 - Intro: Not in Kansas Any More

Movies and TV shows mentioned: The Wizard of Oz (1939); Showdown at Abilene (1956); Gunsmoke (1955-1975); Dances with Wolves (1990); Kansas (1995); Capote (2005); The English (2022).

2:00 - Part 1: No Place Like Home (or, Hollywood can’t tell the truth about places)

Movies and TV shows mentioned: Suits (2011); Law & Order: SVU (2006); Elementary (2019); The Affair (2014); Slumber (2017); Vancouver Never Plays Itself (2015); Los Angeles Plays Itself (2003); Panic in the Streets (1950); Wichita (1955); Stark: Mirror Image (1986); Seinfeld (1992); Planes, Trains and Automobiles (1987); The Ice Harvest (2005); The Beach (2000); Mutiny on the Bounty (1962); Brigadoon (1954); Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade (1989); Star Wars: A New Hope (1977); Game of Thrones (2012); The Game Camera (2025).

15:05 - Part 2: Why Place Matters (or, The Wizard of Oz and Superman might be a little bit racist)

Movies and TV shows mentioned: The Wiz (1978); The Wizard of Oz (1933); The Wizard of Oz (1925); The Wonderful Wizard of Oz (1910); Oz the Great and Powerful (2013); Wicked (2024); Smallville (2001); Superman IV: The Quest For Peace (1987); Man of Steel (2013); The Music Man (1962); Meet Me in St. Louis (1944); Gone with the Wind (1939); Swing (1938); Birthright (1939); Lying Lips (1939); Shaft (1971); The Learning Tree (1969); Oscar Micheaux documentary (2021); Adventures of Superman (1952–1958); Superman (1978).

32:25 - Part 3: Why Location Matters (or, How movies lie when depicting places

Movies and TV shows mentioned: Office Space (1999); Swingers (1996); Little Shop of Horrors (1986); Avatar (2009); The Matrix (1999); The Breakfast Club (1985); Ferris Bueller’s Day Off (1986); Splendor in the Grass (1961); Picnic (1955); Stand by Me (1986); Kansas (1988); Paper Moon (1973); In Cold Blood (1967); In Cold Blood TV miniseries (1996); Capote (2005); Infamous (2006); Smoke Signals (1998); Geronimo (1962); Navajo Joe (1966); Masterson of Kansas (1954); Buffalo Dance (1894); Last of the Renegades (1964); “Keep America Beautiful” PSA (1971); In the Land of the Headhunters (1914); Among the Cannibal Isles of the South Pacific (1918); The Rider (2017); Reservation Dogs (2021-2023).

54:15 - Part 4: Why Kansas Matters (hint: it’s because all places matter)

Movies and TV shows mentioned: He Got Game (1998); Crooklyn (1994); Do the Right Thing (1989); Lady Bird (2017); Boogie Nights (1997); Citizen Ruth (1996); Election (1999); About Schmidt (2002); Jayhawkers (2014); Ninth Street (1999); Destination Planet Negro (2013); The Incredible Brown NDN 2 (2020); Dancing on the Moon (2003); The Dead Can’t Dance (2010); Unsurety (2022); Fear Not (2020); Somebody Somewhere (2022-2024); 42nd Street (1933); King Kong (1933); Citizen Kane (1941); Guys and Dolls (1955); Sweet Smell of Success (1957); The French Connection (1971); Dog Day Afternoon (1975); Annie Hall (1977).

1:09:00 - Postscript and end credits

“I’m interested in writing because I don’t want to sleepwalk through life. I feel like we have an appallingly brief time on earth, and we’re here to see and understand and do as much good as we can before we’re gone.” –Anthony Doerr

In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Anthony talk about how the pace of travel changes the experience of travel, and what it’s like to travel as a writer (2:45); how to manage the local and the global, the specific and the universal, the concrete and the speculative, in one’s writing (12:30); how the idea of “home” influences one’s craft as a writer who travels (23:00); common mistakes writers make when writing about places and cultures they don’t know well, and humiliating travel (and book-tour) experiences (31:00).

Anthony Doerr is a novelist and essayist, and short story writer. His 2014 novel All the Light We Cannot See won the Pulitzer Prize for Fiction, and was made into a Netflix miniseries in 2023.

Books and authors mentioned:

• Four Seasons in Rome, by Anthony Doerr (book)
• The Vagabond’s Way, by Rolf Potts (book)
• Daniel Woodrell (novelist)
• Aimee Nezhukumatathil (poet and essayist)
• Benjamin Percy (author, essayist and comic book writer)
• Paul Theroux (travel writer and novelist)
• Bob Shacochis (novelist and literary journalist)
• Peter Hessler (travel writer and journalist)
• Tony D’Souza (novelist)
• Marco Polo Didn’t Go There, by Rolf Potts (book)
• Travels in Alaska, by John Muir (book)
• Lolita, by Vladimir Nabokov (book)
• Joseph Conrad (Polish-British novelist)
• Wade Davis (Canadian author and anthropologist)
• Jared Diamond (author and historian)
• Gina Ochsner (novelist and short story writer)

Other links:

• Downton Abbey (British historical drama TV series)
• “My Beirut Hostage Crisis,” by Rolf Potts (travel essay)
• “The Hunter’s Wife,” by Anthony Doerr (short story)
• “Querencia,” by Suzannah Lessard (New Yorker article)
• Querencia (Spanish mystical concept)
• Jardin des Plantes (botanical garden in Paris)
• Corsac fox (steppe fox found in Mongolia)
• Pantheon (ancient Roman temple)
• “On Native Ground,” by Wade Davis (essay)
• “The Deep,” by Anthony Doerr (short story)

The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel’s 2017 album Lumber.

Note: We don’t host a “comments” section, but we’re happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.

Note: This encore episode is dedicated to the memory of Alice Potts, who died on August 20, 2025, aged 81.

“In America aging is often seen as an insult rather than an inevitable human process. We don’t celebrate getting older; we ‘fight’ age by pretending to be young.” –Rolf Potts

In this episode of Deviate Rolf and his parents, Alice and George Potts, talk about how surviving the COVID-19 pandemic has changed their relationship, and how it gave them a pretext to go through a “death checklist” together (3:00); how one’s grandparents and parents live on in one’s memories and one’s conversations, the life-values they passed on, and what it felt like when those loved ones declined and died (14:00); how, over the years, elderly people and philosophers have come to terms with notions of decline and death (31:00); and personal insights about what it’s like to have grown older after having lived a long life (44:00).

George and Alice Potts are retired schoolteachers based in Kansas. George taught science at various Wichita high schools, as well as at Friends University, where he pioneered graduate-level programs in Zoo Science and Environmental Studies. He also helped facilitate the Outdoor Wildlife Learning Sites (OWLS) program for the Kansas Department of Wildlife and Parks. Alice taught second graders in the Wichita public schools for more than 30 years. In 1994 her classes succeed in promoting legislation to declare the barred tiger salamander the Kansas State Amphibian.

Notable Links:

• What to Do When a Loved One Dies (AARP death checklist)
• How we die in America (Deviate episode)
• The therapeutic uses of reading scripture (Deviate episode)
• On losing one’s parents to COVID-19 (Deviate episode)
• 1985 World Series (baseball championship)
• Joe Louis (20th century boxing champion)
• John Prine (singer-songwriter)
• Alzheimer’s disease (chronic neurodegenerative disease)
• You Are My Sunshine (folk song)
• Will You Miss Me When I’m Gone (folk song)
• Ecclesiastes (book in the Old Testament of the Bible)
• Epistle of James (book in the New Testament of the Bible)
• Crowfoot (19th century Siksika First Nation chief)
• Ted Kaczynski (the Unabomber)
• Epicurus (ancient Greek philosopher)
• Varanasi (Hindu holy city in India)
• Lamentations 3:22-23 (Old Testament Bible verse)

The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel’s 2017 album Lumber.

Note: We don’t host a “comments” section, but we’re happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.

“No endeavor to write a travel book is ever lost, since it gives you a useful perspective on (and intensified attention to) the reality of the travel experience itself. When embraced mindfully, the real-time experience of a journey is invariably its truest reward.” –Rolf Potts

In this episode of Deviate, Rolf touches on nine lessons from attempting to write a (never finished) van-life vagabonding memoir at age 23, including:

On Pilgrims in a Sliding World (1:00)

Lesson #1: No work is lost (and “failure” has lessons to teach)

On the author as a character (6:30)

Lesson #2: “Show, don’t tell” is still good narrative advice

On depicting other people (14:30)

Lesson #3: Travel books require reporting (not just recollecting)

On recounting dialogues (22:30)

Lesson #4: Be true to what was said (but make sure it serves a broader purpose)

On veering from the truth (32:30)

Lesson #5: The truth tends to work better than whatever you might make up

On depicting places (39:30)

Lesson #6: “Telling details” are better than broad generalizations about a place

On neurotic young-manhood (48:30)

Lesson #7: Balance narrative analysis with narrative vulnerability

The seeds of Vagabonding (1:01:30)

Lesson #8: Over time, we write our way into what we have to say

The journey was the point (1:06:30)

Lesson #9: In the end, taking the journey counts for more than writing it

Books mentioned:

• The Geto Boys, by Rolf Potts (2016 book)
• Vagabonding, by Rolf Potts (2003 book)
• The Anxiety of Influence, by Harold Bloom (1973 book)
• On the Road, by Jack Kerouac (1957 book)
• The Catcher in the Rye, by J.D. Salinger (1951 book)
• Epic of Gilgamesh (12th century BCE Mesopotamian epic)
• Don Quixote, by Miguel de Cervantes (17th century novel)
• The Travels of Sir John Mandeville (14th century travelogue)
• True History, by Lucian of Samosata (2nd century novella)
• Three Cups of Tea, by Greg Mortenson (21st century memoir)
• Marco Polo Didn't Go There, by Rolf Potts (2008 book)
• Labels: A Mediterranean Journal, by Evelyn Waugh (1930 book)

Essays, poems, and short stories mentioned

• "The Mystical High Church of Luck," by Rolf Potts (1998 essay)
• "Greenland is Not Bigger Than South America", by Rolf Potts (1998 essay)
• “The Faces,” by Robert Creeley (1983 poem)
• "Reflection and Retrospection," by Phillip Lopate (2005 essay)
• "Why so much travel writing is so boring," by Thomas Swick (2001 essay)
• "10 Rules of Writing," by Elmore Leonard (2001 essay)
• "In the Penal Colony," by Franz Kafka (1919 short story)

Places and events mentioned

• People's Park (activist park in Berkeley)
• 924 Gilman Street(punk-rock club in Berkeley)
• Alphabet City (neighborhood New York City's East Village)
• Brentwood (Los Angeles neighborhood)
• 1994 Northridge earthquake
• Panama City Beach(Florida spring-break city)
• Gainesville (Florida college town)
• Athens (Georgia college town)
• Big Sur (coastal region of California)
• Humboldt Redwoods State Park (park in California)

Other links:

• "Van Life before #VanLife" (Deviate episode)
• Paris Writing Workshops (Rolf's annual creative writing classes)
• Picaresque (prose genre)
• Roman à clef (fictionalized novel about real-life events)
• "Jumping freight trains in the Pacific NW" (Deviate episode)
• "Telling travel stories, with Andrew McCarthy" (Deviate episode)
• "Rolf Potts: The Vagabond's Way" (Ari Shaffir's Skeptic Tank podcast)
• "A personal history of my grunge-bandwagon band" (Deviate episode)
• Gettysburg Address (Abraham Lincoln speech)
• José Ortega y Gasset (Spanish philosopher)
• Jack Handey (American humorist known for "Deep Thoughts" jokes)
• Laurel Lee (American memoirist)

The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel’s 2017 album Lumber.

Note: We don’t host a “comments” section, but we’re happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.

“Realizing that you will die greatly clarifies your vision of life, and stimulates opportunities for making the vision real.” –Ed Buryn

In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Ed discuss the impetus behind Ed’s first travels to Europe by van in the 1960s, and his early forays into self-printed and self-promoted books about the experience (3:00); how travel to Europe was different 50 years ago, and the joy and freedom that comes with not knowing what happens next (14:30); Ed’s philosophies and influences, including living in “the now” (21:00); how travel allows you to reinvent yourself, and how meeting people is the best gift of travel (36:00); and Ed’s ambitions for poetry and travel, and his advice to travelers in today’s world (44:30).

Ed Buryn is an author and photographer who was one of the first to popularize the term “vagabonding” through the publication of his booksVagabonding In Europe and North America andVagabonding in America. For more about Ed, check outhttps://edburyn.com/.

Notable Links:

• Kevin Kelly (writer, editor, and publisher)
• Tony Wheeler (founder of Lonely Planet travel guides)
• Bill Dalton (founder of Moon travel guides)
• Charles Plymell on the Beat Generation (Deviate episode)
• The Drifters, by James Michener (book)
• Zorba the Greek, by Nikos Kazantzakis (book)
• Henry Miller (author)
• CouchSurfing ((homestay and social networking service)
• Richard Halliburton (traveler and author)
• Tarot (playing cards used for divination)
• Nevada City (community in northern California)

The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel’s 2017 album Lumber.

Note: We don’t host a “comments” section, but we’re happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.

"No one motivation is ‘better’ than any other. We travel with different motivations at different times, and they sometimes overlap." –Ash Bhardwaj

In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Ash talk about curiosity as a motivation for travel (1:30); the ancient Greek concepts of happiness that underpin human motivations like travel, and how mentors influence travel (14:00); serendipity as a motivation for travel, Type One versus Type Two fun, and the dangers of "voluntourism" (21:00); how "awe" differs from "wonder," how to bring these perspectives home, and how "eroticism" can be a part of travel (36:30); "grief travel," and how one's sense for travel can become intertwined with a sense of hope (48:30).

Ash Bhardwaj is an award-winning journalist and broadcaster, and the author of Why We Travel.

Notable Links:

• Paris travel memoir workshop, with Rolf Potts(creative writing class)
• Banana Pancake Trail(backpacker route in Southeast Asia)
• Hedonism (philosophical concept involving pleasure)
• Eudaimonia(philosophical concept involving happiness)
• A Moveable Feast (posthumous memoir by Ernest Hemingway)
• Georges Perec (French novelist)
• Beginner's Mind (Zen Buddhist concept)
• Levison Wood (British explorer)
• Arsenal F.C. (English soccer team)
• Joseph Kony (Ugandan warlord)
• Flow (focused mental state)
• Mihály Csíkszentmihályi(Hungarian-American psychologist)
• NGO (non-governmental aid organizations)
• Air Vanuatu(national airline in the South Pacific)
• Hokitika(town in New Zealand)
• Pounamu (stone valued by the Māori)

The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel’s 2017 album Lumber.

Note: We don’t host a “comments” section, but we’re happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.

"Time spent traveling on trains, just staring out the window: I don't think that's lost time. That's when we have our best ideas." –Kim Krizan

In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Kiki introduce their interview with Kim Krizan by talking about their own personal love of the movie Before Sunrise, and how they first experienced it (0:30); Kim talks about her early travel experiences in Czechoslovakia as a teenager, and in England in her twenties (14:30); how the low-information technological moment of travel in the 1990s doesn't exist anymore in the 2020s (23:30); how Kim became involved with helping Richard Linklater write Before Sunrise, and their creative process in working together (34:00); Kim's ongoing relationship to the movie, 30 years after it came out (44:00); and an "Easter egg" segment featuring Kiki reading Melissa Fite Johnson's poem "Before Sunrise on the VCR" (55:30).

Kim Krizan (@kimkrizan) is the Oscar-nominated cowriter of the Before Sunrise movies, and the author of Spy in the House of Anaïs Nin.

Kristen “Kiki” Bush is an actress, known for Paterno, Liberal Arts, Suits, Law & Order: SVU, and onstage performances at Manhattan Theatre Club, The Public, and Lincoln Center.

Notable Links:

• 2025 Screenwriting in Paris class, with Kim Krizan(creative writing class)
• Paris Writing Workshops (summer learning-vacation classes)
• Before Sunrise (1995 movie)
• Before Sunset(2004 movie)
• Ethan Hawke (American actor and director)
• Julie Delpy (French actress and director)
• Richard Linklater(American filmmaker)
• Kristen "Kiki" Bush in People, Places & Things (2022 play at the Studio Theatre)
• Thoughts on watching the Before trilogy, 25 years on, by Rolf Potts (essay)
• BritRail (train pass in the UK)
• London A-Z (street atlas)
• Siouxsie and the Banshees(British rock band)
• Wembley Stadium (London venue)
• Continuous partial attention (behavior)
• Slacker (1990 film)
• Dazed and Confused (1993 film)
• Anaïs Nin(French-American diarist and novelist)
• Eurail Pass (train pass to 33 European countries)
• The Game Camera (trailer for 2025 short film made by Kiki and Rolf)
• Uncle Vanya (play by Anton Chekhov)
• Robert Falls (former artistic director of Chicago's Goodman Theater)
• Melissa Fite Johnson (poet)

The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel’s 2017 album Lumber.

Note: We don’t host a “comments” section, but we’re happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.

"Time spent traveling on trains, just staring out the window: I don't think that's lost time. That's when we have our best ideas." –Kim Krizan

In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Kiki introduce their interview with Kim Krizan by talking about their own personal love of the movie Before Sunrise, and how they first experienced it (0:30); Kim talks about her early travel experiences in Czechoslovakia as a teenager, and in England in her twenties (14:30); how the low-information technological moment of travel in the 1990s doesn't exist anymore in the 2020s (23:30); how Kim became involved with helping Richard Linklater write Before Sunrise, and their creative process in working together (34:00); Kim's ongoing relationship to the movie, 30 years after it came out (44:00); and an "Easter egg" segment featuring Kiki reading Melissa Fite Johnson's poem "Before Sunrise on the VCR" (55:30).

Kim Krizan (@kimkrizan) is the Oscar-nominated cowriter of the Before Sunrise movies, and the author of Spy in the House of Anaïs Nin.

Kristen “Kiki” Bush is an actress, known for Paterno, Liberal Arts, Suits, Law & Order: SVU, and onstage performances at Manhattan Theatre Club, The Public, and Lincoln Center.

Notable Links:

• 2025 Screenwriting in Paris class, with Kim Krizan(creative writing class)
• Paris Writing Workshops (summer learning-vacation classes)
• Before Sunrise (1995 movie)
• Before Sunset(2004 movie)
• Ethan Hawke (American actor and director)
• Julie Delpy (French actress and director)
• Richard Linklater(American filmmaker)
• Kristen "Kiki" Bush in People, Places & Things (2022 play at the Studio Theatre)
• Thoughts on watching the Before trilogy, 25 years on, by Rolf Potts (essay)
• BritRail (train pass in the UK)
• London A-Z (street atlas)
• Siouxsie and the Banshees(British rock band)
• Wembley Stadium (London venue)
• Continuous partial attention (behavior)
• Slacker (1990 film)
• Dazed and Confused (1993 film)
• Anaïs Nin(French-American diarist and novelist)
• Eurail Pass (train pass to 33 European countries)
• The Game Camera (trailer for 2025 short film made by Kiki and Rolf)
• Uncle Vanya (play by Anton Chekhov)
• Robert Falls (former artistic director of Chicago's Goodman Theater)
• Melissa Fite Johnson (poet)

The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel’s 2017 album Lumber.

Note: We don’t host a “comments” section, but we’re happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.

“If you're someone who's always dreamed of going to Mars but you don't have the time to become an astronaut, you can just visit the Atacama Desert.” –Mark Johanson

In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Mark talk about how Mark became interested in the Atacama Desert, and his experience in other world deserts (1:45); what Mark sought when he traveled through the region (16:00); what it's like to experience the area, and why it's known as "Mars on Earth" (26:00); what travelers can do there, and what it's like for Mark to live in Chile (36:30).

Mark Johanson (@markonthemap) is an American journalist and travel writer based in Santiago, Chile. His first book is Mars on Earth: Wanderings in the World’s Driest Desert.

Notable Links:

• Atacama Desert (desert plateau located in Chile)
• Coober Pedy (town in the Australian Outback)
• Desert Solitaire, by Edward Abbey (book)
• The English Patient, by Michael Ondaatje (book)
• The Songlines, by Bruce Chatwin (book)
• Man in the Landscape, by Paul Shepard (book)
• Chinchorro mummies (ancient remains in the Atacama Desert)
• Qhapaq Ñan (Inca road system)
• Arica (province in Chile)
• Altiplano (Andean Plateau)
• Lands of Lost Borders, by Kate Harris (book)
• Pan-American Highway (road network)
• Cusco (city in Peru)
• San Pedro de Atacama (town in Chile)
• Elqui Valley (wine and astronomy region in Chile)
• Gabriela Mistral (Nobel Prize-winning poet)
• Pisco (fermented spirit made from grapes)
• Pisco sour (cocktail)

The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel’s 2017 album Lumber.

Note: We don’t host a “comments” section, but we’re happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.