The Conversation Art Podcast

In this installment of the OLD NEWS, we talk missing Cady Noland artwork, the protests in Paris and their effect on Art Basel there, Libbie Mugrabi's back-rent debt, and Canada Gallery's shrinking staff.

To hear even more OLD NEWS, including stories from Cheryl's Diner and a great white shark photobombing beachgoers, you can hear all the OLD NEWS by becoming a Patreon supporter: https://www.patreon.com/theconversationpod

Here are the excerpts in case you want to see the photos and videos:

FIND THE NOLAND! OOZEWALD WANTED POSTER by greg

https://tinyurl.com/57esk39v>

The important news from Cady Noland's new exhibition at Gagosian in London is that an edition of Oozewald has been stolen, and the artist wants it back.

According to the STACK OF WANTED POSTERS WHICH CONSTITUTE A WORK IN THE SHOW, ed. 3 of 4 of Oozewald (1989) was last seen in September 1995 at Paula Cooper Gallery. No information on the circumstances of its disappearance, the 31 years of silence about the theft, or whether the complications of broken provenance might affect the work's authenticity.

….

Oozewald is, according to its original label, 6 x 4 1/2 feet by 3/8 inches of aluminum with flag. Which does not include the bracket, or the Coca-cola drinking cup which was mentioned only on the sculpture's appearance at MMK Frankfurt. In case you find a different Oozewald.

For any information, the poster says, contact OOZEWALD@CADYNOLAND.INFO

There is, the poster says, a reward, as if the work wasn't enough. _https://greg.org

>>>

ART BASEL'S 'CYCLICAL DOWNTURN.'

Following months of heated negotiations, Art Basel will hold onto its spot in Miami through 2031, thanks to a new deal with city officials that reduces the annual rent paid by the fair to the city from nearly $1 million to $500,000, plus additional city credits for police, fire, and EMT services, reports the New York Times. To convince officials that the art fair deserved a rent reduction, Art Basel chief executive Noah Horowitz reportedly gave a far less flattering picture of the company's finances and the art market as a whole. He also threatened to abandon Miami Beach for Las Vegas, or another city. Horowitz said that recently reported profits for the fair's parent company, MCH, followed years of "extraordinary losses in which MCH almost faced insolvency," which led them to take "in a large investment from James Murdoch's Lupa Systems family office to stabilize the business." All Art Basel fairs were "currently facing a cyclical downturn, the likes of which we haven't seen since the launch of Art Basel Miami Beach in the early 2000s," he said. Meanwhile, galleries are limiting fair participation or shuttering in response to a slower market, he added, which is why Art Basel Miami Beach will host 250 galleries this December, instead of 283 last year. _ARTnews

>>>

NEW YORK'S MASSEY KLEIN GALLERY CLOSES

New York's Massey Klein Gallery will close its doors after nine years, saying that after initial success, the numbers no longer add up to pay for its showroom on the Lower East Side and support the dealers' family and the gallery's artists.

Husband-and-wife team Garrett Klein and Ryan Massey felt called by their Christian faith to open the gallery, and say they'll continue on with nomadic projects.

"Our relationship with God has informed what we want the gallery to feel like," said Klein in a phone interview. "We're all accustomed to feeling uninvited at galleries. We wanted to create a place of warmth." _ARTnews

LANDLORDS DEMAND NYC SOCIALITE SELL HER $30M BASQUIAT TO PAY DEBTS

https://tinyurl.com/ypsxybx4>

The owners of a posh New York City pad are demanding embattled art world socialite Libbie Mugrabi hawk her multimillion-dollar Jean-Michel Basquiat painting to cough up the massive pile of back rent she owes.

The landlords of The Park Mansion, a stunning Beaux-Arts building at 320 E 82nd St. in Yorkville claim that Mugrabi — the ex-wife of billionaire art dealer David Mugrabi — owes them $2.3 million in unpaid rent that she was first ordered to fork over in 2023.

Libbie Mugrabi lived in the luxurious $28,000-per-month condo for less than a year between 2019 and 2020. While her lease expired in November 2020, she stopped paying rent that April, according to court papers filed in Manhattan Supreme Court.

She was first court-ordered to pay $1.8 million in 2023, but her landlords sued her again in June to pay them with 9% interest.

Now, they are nudging her once again to pay up — this time by trying to force her to sell her Untitled 1982 Basquiat. _NYPost

>>>

NY'S CANADA GALLERY FACED THREAT OF DISSOLUTION AFTER BACKER'S LAWSUITS

https://tinyurl.com/mr362a42>

Canada, an esteemed New York gallery, faced the threat of closure last year after a backer filed two lawsuits against the space's founders.

A New York court ruled that the gallery could remain open, and neither lawsuit appears to be active, with the most recent filings for both posted at the start of this year.

However, in the year and a half since the lawsuits were filed, three of Canada's partners—including one of the gallery's founders—left the operation. Five artists have also exited the gallery

Jean Lignel, a French collector, filed his lawsuits in February 2025 with the New York County Supreme Court. One of his lawsuits sought the dissolution of Canada, while the other alleged that the gallery's other partners had improperly withdrawn more than $3 million, something that they denied in a counterclaim against Lignel.

The Canada partners' counterclaim was discontinued earlier this year. Though Lignel's lawsuits have gone through a series of appeals, neither seems to be currently ongoing.

Lignel began conversations with the gallery in 2008 as a recession wrought havoc upon the New York art market and the global economy. A 2008 document submitted alongside the lawsuit shows that Canada founders Sarah Braman, Suzanne Butler, Phil Grauer, and Wallace Whitney agreed to bring on Lignel as a backer. According to the agreement, Lignel paid $150,000 in exchange for a 50 percent ownership stake in the gallery.

In one of his lawsuits, Lignel alleged that, between 2009 and 2023, Canada's founders "withdrew" more than $3 million, which he claimed ran "in violation of the operating agreement." In their counterclaim, the Canada founders said that Lignel "knew that the Founding Members were being compensated for the services," and that the "compensation for their services is well below market—the going rate for partner salaries for New York art galleries comparable to the Gallery is between $350,000 to $395,000 per year."

In May 2025, a judge quickly denied the motion to dissolve Canada, saying that Lignel had failed to prove that the gallery couldn't operate according to the terms of the agreement he signed. Moreover, the judge said, Lignel "concedes that the gallery has recently hired additional managers, who are not LLC members, thereby demonstrating that the gallery is a functioning business."

"CANADA's four founding members—Phil Grauer, Sarah Braman, Wallace Whitney and Suzy Butler—were deeply disappointed that Mr. Lignel, their Paris-based business partner, did not support the Gallery as it expanded its operations, including during a challenging period in the art market, and subsequently sought its dissolution through litigation," a lawyer for the Canada partners told in an email. "However, as the Court's decision confirmed, the Gallery remains fully operational and continues its artist-run, community-focused programming and mission. While CANADA regrets that the members' dispute involved court intervention, the Gallery remains hopeful that it can work collaboratively with Mr. Lignel in the future."

According to a 6sqft profile of Lignel from 2016, the year he put his West Village home on the market for $14.5 million, he is a music producer, publisher, and entrepreneur with a collection that includes works by Andy Warhol, Keith Haring, Ida Applebroog, and more. His involvement with Canada had not been reported prior to the lawsuits, which have gone unmentioned in the press until now.

While Lignel's lawsuits were pending, Canada appears to have quietly scaled down its operations behind the scenes.

A comparison of Canada's current staff page on its website and a version from October 2025 that was saved by the Internet Archive suggests that the gallery has shed two partners in the past year. Suzanne Butler, a Canada founder who was a defendant in Lignel's lawsuits, is no longer listed as a partner. Tif Sigfrids, who closed her gallery in Athens, Georgia, in 2024 and joined Canada as a partner, also quietly left the gallery. Sigfrids declined to comment; ARTnews was unable to reach Butler.

One more partner left ahead of Butler and Sigfrids: Christiana Ine-Kimba Boyle, who exited her post as senior director of Pace Gallery in 2024 to become a partner and co-owner of Canada, where she formerly worked as a senior director. In March 2025, after only two and a half months as partner and co-owner at Canada, Boyle launched her own itinerant gallery, Gladwell Projects, which has staged exhibitions in Harlem, Jersey City, and Paris. She declined to comment.

An archived version of Canada's roster available via the Wayback Machine also suggests that the gallery has shed five artists since Lignel's lawsuits were filed: Alex Greenberger ARTnews

New York City-based artist Nancy Goldring talks about:

The artist building in the West Village of Manhattan, Westbeth, where she's lived since 1971, when she moved in as a graduate assistant, and was paying $144 a month (which actually seemed like it might be too much at the time); her experience being on the committee reviewing applicants to live in the building; how once you get into Westbeth as a tenant, it's an irreversible tenancy (though one artist she knows was thrown out for subletting); the changes in and near her neighborhood, now full of restaurants full of people in their 20s and 30s "talking too loudly;" how there's a center for the elderly in Westbeth where you can have a 3-course meal for $2.50 (Nancy doesn't partake because "I'm too picky," she says), and how a lot of residents are on social security, including a 100-year-old poet; how she never would have been able to live in New York, especially on her adjunct teacher salary, if it wasn't for Westbeth; how much jubilation there's been around Mayor Zamdani, which she's experienced firsthand from talking to strangers (on the subway, etc.); how many of her students at Montclair State, the last place she taught, were ferociously conservative and anti-intellectual…

On the back end of the conversation (available to Patreon supporters- this podcast relies on listener support; please consider becoming a Patreon supporter for as little as $1/month: https://www.patreon.com/theconversationpod), Nancy talks about: how she used creative approaches to teaching drawing, including having students draw tones from an out-of-focus projection, upside down, to get them free, unshackled from dependence on others' opinions about art, getting them to think for themselves;

her art process, which involves using multiple projectors and a bas relief, a bespoke approach to image making which all started with an accidental capturing of multiple images on her Venetian blinds; how for her first show using the projectors, in the late '70s, got a review in the Village Voice, calling her 'Window Woman;' that what she's after in her projection-hybrids is depth, and since analog film retains that sense of depth, she only works with analog projectors, whereas digital only creates edges, and seems thin to be; how the spirit of the1970s NY art world was doing things no one had done before, and a sense of anything goes, was followed by the 1980s of certain styles/trends becoming models for the market that everyone (collectors, museums and even artists) would latch on to, a move that so frustrated Nancy that she stopped teaching contemporary art in 1982; how the art world (and many artists within it) has reached a peak level of shamelessness, one in which artists hire agents and stylists to help them boost their image; how the 70s NY art scene had a collaborative spirit, and "a sense of evolution and potential that was exciting;" and in the final stretch of our call/video, Nancy gives a tour of both her bas-relief/projection artworks, as well as a bit of the inside of her apartment, which has a close-by view of the Hudson river.

This episode is a mix of excerpts from OLD NEWS (Jeff Weiss's nightly email blast of art-related content) and a Lucien Smith obituary, including comments from readers of the obit more than the obituary itself.

George Stoll, a comment from The Art Daddy, and passages from a long Atlantic article by Sebastian Smee exploring the career and influence of Norman Rockwell, particularly on the films of David Lynch, round out the episode.

In BONUS footage for Patreon, there is more tribute to Lucien Smith and more content from the article on Rockwell, and Lynch.

Lucien Smith tributes plus other OLD NEWS

Sept. 9th, 2026 (ny times)

Lucien Smith, Art-World Star Whose Career Abruptly Turned, Dies at 37

A phenom in his 20s, he became the poster child for Zombie Formalism before abandoning the gallery frenzy for Montauk.

Chris Wiley on The conversation: https://theconversationpod.com/epis-356-zombie-formalism-debt-aesthetics-and-ai-art-new-yorker-writer-critic-chris-wiley/

WOW- I HONESTLY HAD NO IDEA PETER HUJAR PHOTOGRAPHED GEORGE STOLL (IN 1983). INCREDIBLE

https://tinyurl.com/48y8tfd3

Police in Illinois recover 650 rolls of toilet paper amid rise in homecoming week vandalism

https://tinyurl.com/44wzryvt>

Would probably be a good time to introduce all of you to George Stoll's

untitled 1990s artwork where he recreated two rolls of toilet paper

out of white silk chiffon, hand-quilted & lovingly embroidered with tiny roses.

In other news, George Stoll is brother of John Waters actress Mink Stole

https://tinyurl.com/2huhzp69> _MichaelLobel

MISUNDER­STANDING NORMAN ROCKWELL by Sebastian Smee

https://tinyurl.com/248bd98c>

https://tinyurl.com/557ru2aw>

https://tinyurl.com/ykwh5rj2>

In the 2nd half, available to Patreon Supporters of the show, we share former guest Greg Allen's (greg.org) tribute to Smith, and more from Smee's article on Norman Rockwell and David Lynch.

Visit https://theconversationpod.com/ for all things The Conversation, including past episodes, social media, the Intrepid Artist, and more

Nyack, New York-based artist Rob Strati talks about:

Living in Nyack, as far as its local arts community and proximity to NYC; his early artist years in San Francisco, including driving a cab for several years, and eventually getting into tech (starting as a web designer at Yahoo) as a day job, always to support the art even though it became a big part of his then-identity; how his 25 years working in research, marketing and technology all started when he was exposed to web design while staying with friends in DUMBO, Brooklyn; how he shared his 2025 earnings in an end-of-year newsletter, why he did so, and what kinds of responses he received (without naming the number here, the earnings are in the top 1% of artists); how he's applied his research experience in tech to his sales approaches, including making different entry points available to collectors, and taking what he learns from selling direct to collectors on Instagram and applying to future sales; how he's been doing non-exclusive consignment agreements up until now, but is signing on with a London-based gallery for exclusive sales in the U.K. and Turkey, and why he's doing so; the fact that he's had such success selling on IG that it's allowed him to establish consignment-based agreements with galleries as opposed to contractual ones, which has given him more autonomy and leverage than most artists (who do traditional contractual agreements); how he took Dec. of '25 and the first two months of '26 "off," to recover from the grind of 2025, did a lot of skiing with his 13-year-old son, and generally recharged, while acknowledging the accomplishment of such a strong year; the nine different galleries he's currently working with (including Duane Read Gallery in St. Louis and Fremin Gallery in New York); the origin story of his signature art object(s), which has been the work that's transformed his career, all staring with his wife breaking a plate in the kitchen, and how he saw an expanded world in it; the conversation around his work as far as decorative art- how it fits into that lineage, and the emotional connection to that tradition, in contrast to the conceptual tendencies of contemporary art, but how he sees elements of both.

In the 2nd half of our conversation, available to Patreon Supporters of the show, Rob talks about:

How he first improvised the drawing that accompanied that first broken plate piece, and how subsequently he evolved his style in extending the plate patterns into extended landscapes and scenes; we geek out materials, including his determining that Signo pens are the best for the fine lines that he needs (and we geek out on pens for a moment); why being transparent about income (his income) is something he stands behind, including investing in the marketing of his work (boosting posts, advertising, and so on), and how last year, for example, he spent 50k on marketing his work; the "Decision I Did Not Take Lightly," which was his canceling his exhibition at the James Cancer Center Gallery at Ohio State University (his alma mater) because of it being under the umbrella of Leslie Wexner, the philanthropist who funded the Wexner Center for the Arts as well as many schools at OSU, and who has very much been part of the Jeffrey Epstein saga, how Rob was able to shift the show to the Columbus Museum by renting out a space there and continue the conversation about justice and making space for him to stand up for it, but also recognizing how difficult it is to stand up to a boss whom your livelihood depends on; and his job history – prior to striking out on his own making a living from his work alone – including being fired a lot, partly for standing up against abuse in the workplace.

To watch recent episodes of The Conversation, check out our YouTube Channel:

https://www.youtube.com/@theconversationartpodcast

"To Post, or Not to Post….That is the Question"

In this pilot episode of The Intrepid Artist, the main question asked by a listener is whether sharing (or even having) one's social media plays an important role in grant and open call decisions.

Arleene advocates for developing a thoughtful, engaging and empathetic feed, as opposed to one in which an artist is simply constantly sharing work. She wants a feed in which the artist shares who they really are, beyond the gallery setting; whether to use Stories vs. Posts, and the importance of sharing what you want to share, and how Arleene likes to be able to share her failures on IG as a way of showing her full output and working through those failures; whether you would make the work if it isn't/wasn't posted- a key question for artists to ask themselves, and how (of course) the ultimate objective is to be engaging in the studio.

In the 2nd question, a listener asks how to get motivated to draw, to make work, which has Arleene recalling a lifechanging moment in her first real drawing class in art school, led by a professor who asked his students if they needed – not just wanted – to be there; Arleene and I share our very different takes on what it feels like being in the studio- euphoria vs. reality; how the research and other behind-the-scenes work done in the studio that's necessary for making our work goes unseen, and for Arleene that means it's hard to have gratitude when she's not making the art.

Become a Patreon supporter of the podcast for twice as much content, for as little as $1/month, here: https://www.patreon.com/theconversationpod

In the extended Patreon BONUS section, Arleene talks about her forms of meditation- the gym and working out, as well as swimming, as key rituals that help to clear her head before she gets to the studio, so when she's there, she's in the most optimal mental space to focus on her work.

Hunter College professor and author of The War of Art, Lauren O'Neill-Butler talks about:

Her 12 years at Artforum magazine, including its balance between advertising and hard-core art writing, and how her chapter on Fierce Pussy was written while at Artforum; the classes on Activism she's taught at Hunter College, which were not to get students to become activists but to make them aware of its history and context; how teaching activism and writing the book were both 'rage containers' but also ways to inspire difference; how activisms 'expire,' including in the case of her colleague Carrie Moyer, whose hardcore activism (including her campaigns for Dyke Action Machine) lasted two years and followed by going back to the studio and making abstract paintings; the difference between 'activists' and 'artists activists,' which culminated in a question at one of her book events at the New York Public Library: "why are you focusing on artists? What makes them so special? Why can't you talk about other activists too?" and how, in addition to bringing an aesthetic to their activism, as part of the answer, artists are beleaguered; the seminal moment in the artist Rick Lowe's career, when a student living in the 3rd Ward of Houston asked him why, as opposed to just showing them the problems in their neighborhood that they were already aware of, wasn't he being creative about coming up with solutions?; her contention that all art is political, but what does an artist's role look like in terms of their actions; how there's no purity in America and no purity in activism, and how Project Row Houses wouldn't have become as robust without the corporate effort; Sarah Schulman's recent writing on the importance of solidarity, and how the left keeps pointing the figure and keeps eating itself; what Project Row Houses looks like, including the mix of affordable and market rate housing, artists who live in them, and expensive condos recently going up in the neighborhood amidst preserved housing in the 3rd Ward of Houston.

In the 2nd half of our conversation, available to paid Patreon Supporters of the podcast, Lauren talks about:

Why she included (former guest) Ben Davis's critique of Project Row Houses, along with a contextual framework on the challenges of limiting the effects of gentrification, primarily as a way to point out that it isn't artists who are the problem fixers, it's our government representatives; for Rick Lowe and Project Row Houses, it was about trying to do better for the locals; the highly influential and impactful activist organization P.A.I.N. (Prescription Addiction Intervention Now), started by artist Nan Goldin, which was instigated by the terrific irony of the Tate Museum, with £4 million in donations from the Sackler Family Trust, purchased Goldin's "The Ballad of Sexual Dependency" at the same time as she was addicted to Oxycontin (the highly addictive pain medication that led to an epidemic, of which the Sacklers are known for); the successful objective of P.A.I.N. (which is a non-partisan group despite it being formed by a politically progressive artist) to eliminate the art-washing of the Sacklers by putting their names on so many museum wings, and in turn what it was like for PAIN members to attend the protests with fellow protesters who were in very different cultural spheres, including hard-core trumpers; how savvy PAIN was in cultivating and working with the press, which really got their actions thoroughly covered, and even their private meetings were recorded, which helped provide lots of content for Laura Poitras's documentary on Goldin; how Lauren uses YouTube video footage of the PAIN protests, which were so well thought out and dramatic, in her classes; why she didn't right about the Stop Oil! Activist actions in museums (because it's mainly taken place in the U.K.); how the effectiveness of a protest depends very much on the press coverage and the level of circulation of the images from a given action; how most activisms have a figurehead (Goldin), and how it matters, for better or worse, when there's a public-facing person in a group; how successful activism depends on bringing in new blood and new ideas, and how big a factor burnout is for activists; the state of agitprop, or postering, today vs. the 90s- Carrie Moyer and Sue () of Dyke Action Machine would say that the street postering they did wouldn't work today, because there's just too much visual noise, and Lauren's nostalgia for the 90s for those reasons; the 'Secret Handshake' sculptures of trump and Epstein that have been making the rounds on social media around the world, work which she hates but recognizes as effective nonetheless; the hostile takeover of the New College of Florida, Lauren's undergraduate alma mater, by governor Desantis, and how she's been part of the alumni response to the takeover including the forming of nonprofits, a project that is very close to her heart and how she's been involved in it for the past three years, and the struggle of the school was recently featured on "Last Week Tonight with John Oliver."

Writer and Frieze editor-in-chief Andrew Durbin talks about:

His book tour for "The Wonderful World That Almost Was," which has been hectic; how he became familiar with Peter Hujar's work initially, and why his and Paul Tek's legacies really took off after their deaths; Peter's persona and personality as someone who could be as charming and engaging as can be, but also someone who flew off the handle with a volatile anger at some in his life, and how he actually using photography to deal with some of that anger; how Paul Tek appeared to be thoroughly charming and quintessentially hippie-ish from the various television footage of him in interviews, despite his ultimate distaste for and rebellion against the hippie archetype, and how he had an ongoing contradiction in wanting to be around people and then wanting to get away (he often questioned the love of those who loved him), which he did prolifically, from Miami right out of school to various parts of Italy throughout his adulthood; Peter's troubled relationship with his mother, who was emotionally abusive and neglectful, and whom was described by a boyfriend of Peter's at the time as "very good at being unsatisfied;" how Peter learned much of his photography skills working in commercial photos studios in the '60s and '70s (including that of Richard Avedon) and eventually applied and expanded them in the darkroom for his own work, and to what extent Gar Schneider, his friend and the printer of the work in his estate, will make prints posthumously from the estate;

In the 2nd half of the conversation, available to Patreon supporters, he covers:

The legacies of Peter and Paul, including via Linda Rosenkranz's book "Peter Hujar's Day," which became a film by Ira Sachs, and how Andrew's book may just be part of the rise in their respective public profiles; how he was more interested in and relied on their own memories of their childhoods (and adulthoods) as opposed to thru the lenses of family; how Andrew melded with his subjects, and how consuming and surprisingly somatic the experience of writing the book became, leaving him unsure how to re-fill his time once the writing finally ended; how thru writing the book he had to confront his own fears of AIDS, of death, and his insecurities, and the therapist who guided him gracefully through that process; how, despite the book being published by Farrar, Straus and Giroux, he still maintained his full-time job (editor of Frieze magazine), and in fact how much the book strained his finances, as biographies turn out to be expensive endeavors (with almost no opportunity for grants to support them); how the reason that Andrew's book and Ira Sachs' film (Peter Hujar's Day) are coinciding has to do with a hunger for authenticity, including especially a yearning for a time (the '70s) in New York when artists could live together in a community and scrape by financially on whatever they made, a time long-gone but one that even some young people are aware of; iconic writer/cultural critic Susan Sontag's relationships with Peter and Paul, the latter of whom became infatuated with her, and how Andrew showed her as 'an intoxicating' individual, and what that feels like; Paul's complex relationship with his sexuality, to the extent that he often pursued relationships with women, whom he dated quite often but never got serious with, and how sexuality was something he may have tormented himself over; how the actor who played Peter in "Peter Hujar's Day" could never fill Peter's robust shoes, but at the same time how happy Andrew is for how many people the film has brought to Peter's work; the differences between living in New York and London (where he lives now), including how London actually has more in common with Los Angeles in terms of its size and its more deliberate social dynamics whereas in New York you're constantly running into people everywhere; and how he'll finally be ready to transition to his next project once this one if finally done, as it's been such an immersive, somatic experience.

James Delbourgo, professor of history at Rutgers University and author of A Noble Madness: the Dark Side of Collecting from Antiquity to Now, talks about:

Why he's written about contemporary art so extensively, as a history academic who's very interested in the present, going to galleries and wondering who collectors are right now, raising a lot of questions about archetypes for what would become a big part of his book; how collectors can not only be defined as powerful, they can also be defined as weak, unhinged and deranged, among other things; how the profile of the collector, over time, is more a corkscrew than an arc, with the Freudian view of the collector was seen as repressed and even dangerous, whereas the contemporary collector is seen as being more about power; how in Robert Bloch's book "Psycho," upon which the movie was based, the Norman Bates character is actually described as a collector but one who is ugly and unprepossessing, and how the Hitchcock film turned him into a charming, ingratiating figure who turns the audience on his side; how really thoroughly experiencing housed collections (prime examples are the Hearst Castle in San Simeon, CA, and the Vittoriale degli Italiani in Gardone, owned by Gabrielle d'Anunzio) was embedded in his writing the book; the collector as puppeteer, as orchestrator (and collector) of people, as William Randolph Hearst was; how encountering someone's place, and their things, is "a physical experience that constitutes the way you understand this person and your relationship to them," as James put it; and how Freudian interpretation has had such a lasting relevance over the years, even as it's gone out of fashion.

In the 2nd half of our conversation, available to Patreon Supporters of the podcast, you'll hear James talk about:

How hoarding, like the Middle Ages, has waned, and is tossed around far too lazily; the 'l' word, as in "loser," which he used to describe Robert Bloch's Norman Bates, whom he qualifies as a 'lovable loser,' particularly because collectors like Bates collect authentically, out of passion, not for financial gains; how he couldn't quite get the marketing department to change the subtitle of his book (particularly "The Dark Side" part), and why he's interested in authentic collectors, those who collect for love, with no thoughts of profits or strategy, the type of collector who he believes is vindicated in the end, as opposed to the Charles Foster Kane-type collector, who collects to accumulate; the democratization of collecting, including 'garbologists,' in which everything can, and does, get commodified; countercultural collectors, who collect things like deformed animal corpses, their own child's placentas, and other curiosities, and how they don't care what people think of them, or in fact that they want to defy popular opinion…as James put it: "their truth to self is uncompromised…by notions of taste or fine arts or utilitarianism…they're the freest people of all…they've freed themselves from the tyranny of the respectable opinion of other people;" and finally he describes an exhibition about Marie Antoinette at the Victoria & Albert Museum in London (the lines to get in were staggering), a collector of shoes and porcelain and snuff boxes and furniture…who was so vilified/demonized for political reasons, as the enemy of the people…she is the classic case of the political demonization of a collector who is executed as if it would purge the suffering of her subjects; the most classic case of that political question around the collector, and how, ironically, it was her execution that made her immortal.

John Byrne, author of "Useful Art- How Activist Artists Can Change the World," and professor of Useful Art at Liverpool John Moores University's School of Art and Design, talks about:

The city of Liverpool and its art community, with about 20 total galleries, and how he fits into it; where he'll be book touring the book; a key framing in the book, being in a 'neo-liberal occupation' that we live under, which has a huge impact on the culture industries and means the financialization of essentially everything; the surprising pushback there's been at conferences and other events where Useful Art is discussed, including a lot of resistance from those in the art world who may feel that their positions of power are being threatened; the complex but far too under-considered distinction between "use value" and "aesthetic value," and why it's worth considering "use value" as a legitimate part of art-making (and which can even somehow manage to incorporate some aesthetic value); how one of the things he's interested in is having a radical re-think of what aesthetics are but also what they can be; some among many Useful Art projects, including by individual artist Tania Bruguera and Indonesian collective Ruangrupa, which curated Documenta 15, and how they came to be as a group…and, in turn, what the effect of having Ruangrupa curate that Documenta, which was an adventurous choice of curation, a role that John has heard described as "the curatorial Everest."

In the 2nd half of our conversation, available to Patreon supporters of The Conversation, John Byrne talks about:

how ruangrupa came to be, a very different trajectory as they didn't grow up in a culture with contemporary galleries or museums (though they did go to art schools abroad), but had a goal to make a living as artists through the collective, more specifically the "lumbung," equivalent to a co-operative; how the controversy that arose from a single figure with a swastika in the much, much broader scope of ruangrupa's curation led to calls of anti-semitism which overshadowed that Documenta from an outsider's and the press's perspective, and how John believes this distraction was used by many as a way of avoiding discussing some of the core meanings and significance of ruangrupa's contributions to the vaunted art event; the importance of "switching the aperture of the Overton Window," a term he mentions several times, which is about re-orienting your settings in terms of shared understandings of what big concepts are, like Art with a capital A, and how venturing into Useful Art doesn't in any way mean excluding being an individual artist who works solo- they can exist simultaneously; it's also that if we don't open up and expand the definition of what an artist can be and art can be and who can make it, we run the risk of surrendering Art to the neoliberal occupation; his interest, back in the day when he was a young person, in DIY culture (Rough Trade Records, et al.) and how that's a good analog for Useful Art projects; the artist Ahmet Ögüt, a former student of John's who started The Silent University, a knowledge exchange which evolved into a significant cultural platform; Tania Bruguera's project for the Tate Modern which entailed accessing/experiencing police horses and their corralling, and how inside the institution it follows certain basic and old-school protocols, whereas she also has done several projects outside the institution/into the street/community; the concept of 1:1 Scale Art, which the critic Steven Wright appropriates from a Lewis Carol story, in which a map is produced that is so elaborate that it covers everything that exists in the 'real world' of that map, and Wright takes that perspective and applies it as the idea that artists jettison making representations of the real world, and instead affecting change in the real worlds itself (one of the cruxes of the book), which the art world hasn't been able to understand because of the condition of neoliberal capture; a former student who's working on a project in which public libraries become spaces of the Commons, open to all kinds community members including especially those on the margins (whether pensioners, immigrants, etc.); and how posting some of the entries from the Association of Arte Util in open community meetings/events has been a great starting point – another bringing someone in to introduce a skill – to get people engaged in a Useful Art project and think and live artfully.

Boston-based photographer Jim Dow talks about:

The Boston art community (which is often connected to the art school and universities) and why he's lived there the great majority of his life (he lives in the house he grew up in); he's a dedicated Mass-hole- there's an edge to people there and you have break that edge; how he navigates random passersby when he's photographing for long sessions with his wooden large-view camera (his exposures range from a second to 20 minutes), with people always around him (here's a short video of a food stand guy singing tango where Jim was doing a shoot); his experiences with the difference between analog and digital photography, each of its pros and cons, and why he uses digital for documenting exhibitions which he's used for his teaching; suggestions for how to best edit documentation of your own work, which starts with photographing on your phone, to get a good sense of color that you can use as a template for your photo editing; how he used the NEA's selection process, of not using artist statements as part of the process for the initial rounds, as a tool to teach his students (including as a guest lecturer at Harvard) about how decisions are made; the Harvard student he had who wrote a study evaluating the value of photography based on economic models; two fully adults students he's had over the years, and how their stories impacted both Jim and his other, younger students; and how the odds of becoming monetarily successful artists are worse than becoming a professional baseball player, at least by one (possibly obsolete?) metric.

This podcast relies on listener support; please consider becoming a Patreon supporter of the podcast, for as little as $1/month, here: https://www.patreon.com/theconversationpod

In the 2nd half of the conversation, available to Patreon supporters, we talk about:

His own relationship to financial success as an artist, both as a teacher and a photographer, which has added up to a solid middle-class income, and how 'his photography supports his photography,' just barely; how crucial it is for artists to have day jobs; how scarcity and nostalgia play a big role in a photograph's market value; his insights on financial precarity, not only through his students but his own kids, and what he tends to advise kids to do vis-à-vis art school; how he worried about students who thought their path after leaving art school was being an art star – because of those low odds he mentioned – and meanwhile how many mature adult students he had who were in their 30s all the way up to even their 70s, and how they got so much out of his classes with the life experience they brought; how he wrote 'a million' letters of recommendation for students, always starting from scratch (no template); though he didn't want to necessarily become friends with his students, he's become good friends with about 7 of them between early 30s and early 70s; how he saw his students as "peers-in-training;" the visual sophistication of the recent college kids he taught, due to their lifelong exposure to such a vast range of imagery; how the women and the gender fluid students were infinitely more articulate than the men, in his experience; how one of his students, who grew up on a dairy farm, expressed her frustrations with class differences she experienced amidst her fellow students (read: privilege); and his next project, documenting the food stands and other businesses along north-south highway 111, using it as an opportunity to explore the 'hallway doors' along the way.

Hadley, Massachusetts and NYC artist Sarah K. Khan talks about:

How it's a "little miracle" to have a studio (a former chick coop on a farm in the 5-college area of Mass.) after so many years working in kitchens and other spaces not dedicated to her work and where she can really spread out; her short films about the immigrant experience in New York via food trucks (particularly her Queens Migrant Kitchens series), and how she was originally motivated to work in this area in 2015 as a way to follow up on the fall-out from 9/11 among the immigrant community; the challenges she had getting street vendors and other food makers in being filmed, because they were afraid of being surveilled; the films' impact on the street vendor community, including one woman who was able to grow from a street vendor stall to a brick-and-mortar restaurant (and keep the food stall active); her collaboration on 'Speak Sing Shout: We, Too, Sing America' with the animator Simon Rouby; her film and photography work in Old Dehli, one of the many world crossroads she's covered; how making things for herself, first and foremost, is a practical way of making work (this may or may not be connected to her not being trained in a BFA/MFA kind of way; she has advanced degrees in food studies and has a background in integrative medicine); and how the core of her work is talking about the migration of people, plants and ideas (often women, often domestic spaces).

This podcast relies on listener support; please consider becoming a Patreon supporter of the podcast, for as little as $1/month, here: https://www.patreon.com/theconversationpod

In the 2nd half of the conversation, available to Patreon supporters, we talk about:

Sarah's background in integrative medicine, including teaching chefs about nutrition, and taught Western nutrition to Eastern practitioners; how it's time to grow our own vegetables as a way of taking control of our own health; vegetables and herbs people can grown themselves, both as food and in teas; plant-based diets, which are followed by most of the world; how food and culture infuses the ceramics, prints and animation work she's been doing; the research and work she's been doing in southern India and how it connects with the history of 'the Sultan,' and in her case replacing that story with the Queen of Shiba; how her engagement with her own cultural lineage in her work can encourage viewers to engage with their own cultures; how she's created her own pipeline as an artist, without a BFA or MFA (having come from nutrition and science); her filming all over India (including in Nagaland in the far north) of women farmers; and how compassionate and tuned in she is to the immigrant experience.

Artist and legendary street artist Robbie Conal talks about:

His family history, including his two activist-and-politically inclined parents, his background in fighting the power; moving up to Los Osos (in San Luis Obispo County) as a permanent residence (back after the 2008 crash), but keeping a small place in L.A.; what he misses about not being in the city (he's lived in NYC and SF as well as L.A.); his first big moment with public art, through postering, which was born out of caricature paintings he was making of Ronald Reagan's cabinet, which he dubbed 'Men with No Lips,' and alighted through a large postering campaign just as Museum of Contemporary Art, Los Angeles, was opening to the public in 1986; how he's Shepard Fairey's OG, and how he was an influence on him as a future street artist (though Fairey said, "I can do that" quite confidently); his personal mantra: "apply what you do best to what you care about most," which in his case his drawing and talking smack (does best) and American democracy (cares about most); how, to make his work quicker to keep his work temporal, he switched from oil painting to charcoal and then to acrylic with oil accents; how all his friends who have his art (mostly of terrible characters) have them in their toilets; and his most popular work, "Watching, Waiting and Dreaming," a triptych of Gandhi, the Dahli Lama and Martin Luther King.

This podcast relies on listener support; please consider becoming a Patreon supporter of the podcast, for as little as $1/month, here: https://www.patreon.com/theconversationpod

In the 2nd half of the conversation, available to Patreon supporters, we talk about:

How he's sustained himself financially over the decades outside of sales of his work, from teaching to receiving donations to his postering campaigns to lots of (young) volunteers; what he thinks about street art, and mural art, today, and the distinction between graffiti, street art and poster art, and how his reputation saved him from competing street artists when he was postering; our different respective takes on street art, and how Leon Trotsky taught him that everything is political, and street art is inherently political; what he's learned from terrible jobs: mainly, you can't make good art, let alone great art, in your spare time, while holding down a full-time job (and doing the work on the side); the most commonly asked questions he's received about postering (how many times have you been arrested?); how part of your mission as a poster is muscling up for the consequences; and what the best thing is to say to the judge when you're asked why you did it.

And for the final 15 minutes of our talk, he covers the breadth of logistics related to putting up posters in public/on the street, which he refers to as 'acts of civil disobedience.'

Napa, CA-based artist Arleene Correa Valencia talks about:

Why she lives in Napa, CA, and the two distinct versions of the town, for the wealthy and for the poor ("you're either the owner of the vineyard, or you're working the vineyard," as she put it); how she's the first generation to not be working the vineyards, his dad having worked the vineyard for a period before transitioning to hand-painting etched wine bottles for a winery (which he had to ultimately leave for lack of being paid enough because he didn't have an MFA); her favorite wines by grape (Pinots and Cabs from Sonoma mainly), and more recently a master fabricator color theorist and surface touch-up artist; making her dad's dreams to become an artist come to fruition through her; how she always refers to the work she makes as 'ours,' assuming everyone knows that her father always has a hand in the projects, in addition to consistently collaborating with makers from her culture of origin; the letters she exchanged with her father, while he was working to lay a foundation for the family to move to the U.S., among the artworks acquired by Stanford's Cantor Arts Center; her complicated DACA (Dreamer) status, and the exhibition she was able to have in Mexico (in Puebla, about 2 hours from Mexico City) which ultimately allowed her to apply for, and get, a green card; how she had to defer her dream to go to a 4-year university or art school until she received DACA status, and then she got a Diversity Scholarship that allowed her to attend California College of the Arts, which she would never otherwise would have been able to afford; how one of her 1st interviews was for someone interested in learning about being undocumented in the arts (originally published in Hyperallergic, she had to have it taken down for legal reasons to protect her); how her various supporters propelled her into her art-making and her art school education, and in turn the questions she asks herself about how she can help others, undocumented and otherwise…

This podcast relies on listener support; please consider becoming a Patreon supporter of the podcast, for as little as $1/month, here: https://www.patreon.com/theconversationpod

In the 2nd half of our conversation (available on Patreon), Arleene talks about:

How her mom comes from a family with 36 brothers and sisters, so is part of an enormous extended family; the BRCA mutation in her family, in which bodies are much more susceptible to various cancers, including breast cancer and ovarian; why ICE hasn't been active in the Napa Valley area, very likely because people of wealth and/or power won't allow their wine supply to be affected; how aware she is of her career and her sales, and that she's proud of her production rate and the work her gallery is doing with her; the demand for her truck paintings, and why she has a need to make those paintings, not producing them for a paycheck; when she requested a collector give her more time to finish a piece that she wasn't happy with, and re-made it; how integral her dad is to her work and her process, and how he's celebrated along with her, if only through his tremendous pride in her, and that it wouldn't all happen without him; the work they do with a tattoo family, and how it's similar to the dynamic that she and her dad as a family do together, which she acknowledges is a bit like the man behind the curtain; her Tochtli (rabbit) tattoo, a symbol in her family that signifies selflessness and the ultimate sacrifice; how the evolution of her being tattooed, which started when she was 18, has been about honoring the story of her ancestry and claiming her identity, and how her brothers, like her, are acquiring full body suits of tattoos.

London-based photographer and writer Michael Collins talks about:

The flat where he's lived for 35 years, which is getting 'Wallace & Gromit' crowded; how he keeps film in his deep freeze (aka freezer) as opposed to anything edible, and how he's happy to shop for the day, while he points out that Brits see American refrigerators and are overwhelmed by how large they are; and by the way, we're also bludgeoned by advertising here, compared with the UK and Europe; how he sees our social media consumption as giving in to the impulsive at the expense of the rational, a battle he gives in to daily for a half hour on IG…and how sometimes, you just want to look at a panda falling out of a tree; why readers (of books) make better viewers of artworks; how when his photographs are printed at full scale (4 x 5 feet) you can walk into them and how part of photography's schtick is that it's nosy, that it admits everything in it; his takeaways from giving a presentation at the Hampstead Photographic Society, in which have the members bolted for the door at the break; the importance of 19th century photography to understanding the history of photography, and how it's not shown enough in museums (at least in London); how he started studying politics, but switched over to art, initially stumbling into photography as an editor at a teenage girl's magazine, then moving to The Observer, and then he became picture editor at the Daily Telegraph, where he realized, amidst a more rushed editorial structure that went with predictable stock photographers, that the most interesting photography was not there to fulfill another's agenda, but in pursuit of independence, to fulfill its own agenda.

This podcast relies on listener support; please consider becoming a Patreon supporter of the podcast, for as little as $1/month, here: https://www.patreon.com/theconversationpod

In the 2nd half of our conversation (available on Patreon), Michael talks about:

The challenges of evolving and following your own path at the expense of taking the more marketable route, which means maintaining your integrity, and how his photographs, and his writing are both better than ever; the complex and fulfilling experience he had visiting and re-visiting a Jeff Wall museum exhibition; how the photographer Martin Parr dominates the scene in Britain, and how all his pictures look roughly the same, and yet he's kind of this hero in the country, through the 'steamroll of publicity,' and how there's far more depth, wealth and nuance out there than we're being allowed…; his first art review (for The Daily Telegraph), of Andreas Gursky's exhibition at Tate Liverpool, which uncovered a surprising digital edit, one he was turned on to by one of the museum custodians, and when he wrote the review that included his misgivings about the work, the Tate press office told him he was being cruel (to which he replied, "that's not being cruel, that's being honest"), and how another artist's agent threatened to sue for a negative review; our respective takes on art writing and criticism, in terms of what he appreciates vs. can't tolerate, and what I appreciate and can't tolerate; more about the world of magazine editing, which he describes as being a lifetime ago…; and finally, to wind down our conversation, we talk about his book, Blind Corners, which features several essays exploring across the spectrum of photography and photography's history; in particular we review a passage where he compares Americana via Kodachrome and Hollywood light with the dull, austere light of Britain, and he goes on to call out Dubai as the culmination of late capitalism.

Pasadena-based artist Linnéa Gabriella Spransy talks about:

Growing up between Wisconsin and a commune in Oregon, the latter which she describes as a complete commitment more than an experiment (the town was Wildeville, Cape Junction being the closest city); how you radically live out the life of Christianity, including giving away all their stuff, and how her father played in a Christian glam rock band that toured the world; having a positive commune experience, yet winding up 'inevitably becoming part of the machine,' aka capitalism, despite her wonderings as a child, which are still there; her period living and working in Kansas City for seven years after grad school at Yale, figuring out which voices to use in her work and make enough to have a house and a nice studio, and yet felt claustrophobic by its limitations and where she saw herself in the future if she had stayed there; her mantra in Kansas City, "if there's no pressure, I still do it," in determining what work she would keep making no matter what; her intense experience at Yale, where everyone, even the future stars, received harsh criticism for a range of reasons; the big advantages of artists who are extroverted charmers, especially in comparison to the 'ambiverts,' as Linnea calls them (and who we both essentially identify as), and even more so the more misanthropically aligned artists; her tenure co-founding Bridge Projects, a spiritually-oriented gallery in Hollywood, which had the misfortune of opening days before the pandemic.

In the Patreon BONUS episode (379A), twice as long as episode 379/the public feed, Linnea also talks about:

Her complex take on the existential state we're in politically and culturally in the context of history, in which she identifies with people from numerous eras of the past, confronting their own challenging times and what we have in common; her experience living in Pasadena as a diverse place with a significant history and culture, and, as a neighbor to Altadena, what their respective roles have been as neighborhoods for artists in the context of the Eaton fire; her different working methods, from the through-the-process-oriented abstraction, as opposed to her much more research-based figurative work…she describes each of them as working different muscles; in the context of her 'growing a human person,' as she put it, the importance of having a rich internal life, interesting things, interesting people…; and whether she should get a studio in an artist building downtown, vs. sticking with her garage studio at home. She also asks (and to some extent answers) a question in support of the future artist advice podcast, The Intrepid Artist.

Camilla Taylor, Los Angeles artist, and curator of "My House Burned Down" (at Track16 Gallery), talks about:

Her childhood with complicated religious origins, between her Mormon LDS father and her mother who branched off to start her own organization (some might say 'cult,' per Camilla), and how art, for her and many artists, can often fit the functions that people are often looking for in religions (including being part of something bigger than themselves); how she's really good at compartmentalizing, seeing difficult experiences from her life as existing in rooms in a house, where she can shut the door to any given room; the epic story of experiencing her house burning down in the Eaton Fire in Altadena-- from her 16-hour drive home from the Sitka Center residency in Oregon, to seeing it when she approached her part of the San Gabriel Valley, to arriving home and having the wind lift her off her feet, to their belated evacuation; and subsequently how she found out her and her partner's house, and her studio, had burned down, and that that process of mourning has been like; how trauma has manifested from losing her home and studio, and the range of reactions she's received, including a lot of suggestions that are tone-deaf; what insurance will cover, and the studio spaces she's been loaned/gifted for now, putting off the need for having to rent a studio for the first time (since studios have always been attached to her living spaces).

This podcast relies on listener support; please consider becoming a Patreon supporter of the podcast, for as little as $1/month, here: https://www.patreon.com/theconversationpod

In the 2nd/Patreon Bonus half of the conversation, Camilla talks about:

How, because of her visibility as an artist, she's been more fortunate than many others who lost homes/studios in the fire by receiving a range of resources that artists less visible have not; the lawsuits against Southern California Edison, who allegedly started the Eaton fire; the group show she curated, 'My House Burned Down,' at Track 16 Gallery, which included four artists who lost their homes in the Eaton fire, and four artists who lost their homes in prior fires, and how the show addressed a commonality in losing one's home as an artist, with an extra emphasis on materiality; how while she doesn't know what the right reaction is, when people learn that her house (and studio) burned down in a fire, she knows that the reaction that she's going to rise above it, like the phoenix from the ashes, is absolutely not the reaction to have, because it's hurtful especially in its negating of what happened to her; and we have an extensive exchange about what I have long referred to as "the P-word," as in 'practice, as in 'my art practice, a word Camilla also hates, and she talks about why language has become so important in art/the art world, including her take that artists overcompensate in art because, essentially, we/art is so unimportant to everyone else; and Camilla shares her favorite and least favorite art-speak words; and how in her teaching she's honest with students about how their work affects her, as opposed to making art historical comparisons.

Brooklyn-based artist and sometimes New Yorker magazine cartoonist Guy Richards Smit returns to the podcast eight years after his first visit to talk about:

His admitted high self-regard, paired with self-awareness, which we identify as being rare; our respective experiences and takes on artist blowhards; his history with cartooning, going back to his obsession with gag cartoons, going back to a New Yorker cartoon book he read at his grandparents' house when he was a kid; how he started making his own gag cartoons; the steps he took to build his cartoon portfolio, leading to getting published in the New Yorker after a year and a half of submitting (which is much quicker than some); the cartoon he made for the New Yorker website, the 'Daily,' that went viral (receiving 1500 comments, not to mention other viral stats), including getting re-created in Turkish by a Turkish cartoonist; how he actually sees the cartoons as sketches for paintings (and gets quite painterly in the making of them); how about half of his cartoons are more insider-baseball-art cartoons, and the one he made that references one artist that he had in mind, although several reactions interpreted it as another artist, whom Guy actually heard from, wondering if it was about them.

In the 2nd half of our conversation, available to Patreon Supporters of the podcast, you'll hear Guy talk about:

How the parameters for where art can come from have changed, and how humor in art is still held, especially in the U.S., as a bit off limits; how his desire to paint a rock led to his Sisyphus cartoon (every cartoonist wants to do a Sisyphus cartoon); his desire to make a put out cartoons that are beautiful, not really a quality that the cartoon editor, or even cartoon consumers, are necessarily looking for; why the New Yorker cartoonists haven't been able to form a union, which is related to why there aren't really any other high-profile venues for gag cartoons to be seen; how he didn't have a gallery for 15 years, and was "forced to sell" his own work, using Instagram successfully for sales in the pre-algorithmic takeover era, when he got three to four times more engagement than he gets now (and thankfully for him he now doesn't require sales thru IG as much); his new dealer, Adam Cohen, who opened the gallery A Hug from The Art World three years ago; and how wanting to draw a Miro sculpture led to one of his most popular and most responded to cartoons at the Independent art fair in NYC this past spring.

This podcast relies on listener support; please consider becoming a Patreon supporter of the podcast, for as little as $1/month, here: https://www.patreon.com/theconversationpod

In Episode 376, Alex and Theo Gribaudi-Plytas talk about:

Their location in rural France, at the southern end of the Champagne region, where there are tons of vineyards, many of which they take friends from out of town to, and how even in their minimally populated area they see plenty of income inequality; how they met while living in London's version of dorms for art students, even though they were going to art schools that weren't at all near each other, and how they evolved from friends to romantic partners to romantic partners who make art collaboratively; Theo's art school professor, Leigh Clarke, who looked through the class's sketchbooks, and if they didn't past muster he'd throw them in the trash (it was symbolic); how they organically evolved into making art together as a pair, and what the advantages (and occasionally disadvantages) are, including the energy from vibing off each other's ideas, and how one can inspire the other and v.versa; how their life is their art, particularly with the evolution of their home/home studio and garden, all together as a piece.

In the BONUS Full Episode, available to Patreon supporters of The Conversation, Alex and Theo discuss: Their perpetual moving in and moving out of studios in London, each after just a year or two, because they got priced out or the situation was unsustainable, and how they're translating the various functioning areas of those fleeting studio spaces to this permanent one, which is still very much a work-in-progress after three years (it's a former school house built in 1879 and a house next door); their 24-hour work/artmaking sensibility, which they make sound quite appealing, a world in which breakfast can be art, or they can be working on art-related sewing while watching a film; why they left the city for the country, even when they had such a wonderful time during art school and beyond in London; the details of their property, including the view into the forest, where hunting takes place (and which we discuss); their complex relationship using Instagram (they don't like to but need to); Theo's sister, Sarah Rosenzweig, who they both admire for getting off of Meta platforms despite living in the mountains in the south of France (she sends out calendars and advocates for progressive political causes).

Marcie Begleiter, an artist based on the Central Coast of California, talks about: artist residencies, including the Sitka Center for Art and Ecology, where she recently did a 4-week residency, including collecting biological specimens/samples; how her time and relationship with the residency evolves over those four weeks, which has lead to artistic breakthroughs; how she likes deadlines, and can structure her residency experience with the clock ticking and puts extra focus on what she's doing, and in addition having the support of the people running the residencies; the importance of the artist statement in applications for residencies; what her experience was like at Sitka, from where she stayed (at an offsite house as opposed to the onsite cabins) to how she spent her days and nights, and what her studio days are like on a residency vs. the studio where she lives; why she left New York (Manhattan) for, initially Taos, N.M., and eventually California (essentially she needed more access to nature); and the interdisciplinary program she started at Otis College of Art that focuses on social change in the community.

In the 2nd half of our conversation, which is available on our Patreon page, she talks about: how she's restarting the local CERT (citizen's emergency response training) training in her unincorporated town (of Los Osos, CA), partially inspired by not having much access out of her area in an emergency; how she and her husband came to leaving Los Angeles for Los Osos, back in 2015/16, after she toured extensively with her documentary on the artist Eva Hesse; the benefits of living in a small town (Los Osos) which she prefers to city life; the lucky circumstances of having a great studio space in a location where you wouldn't expect great studios; why she vastly prefers a studio outside her home; she breaks down the different type of residencies: 1) fully funded plus stipends…2) fully funded, no stipend….3) highly subsidized…4) paying full ride; and finally, she addresses our standard finishing questions: how does she feel like social media in this moment, and how success is defined across various careers in the arts.

Oakland-based graphic artist Hugh D'Andrade, author of the graphic novel "The Murder Next Door," talks about:

His first graphic novel, The Murder Next Door, including what led him to finally making a graphic novel after being a big fan of them for a long time; studying fine art at the California College of Arts and Crafts back in the 1980s, and then going back to the same school, now called simply California College of the Arts, to get a masters in graphic novels; graphic novelists who have been influential to Hugh, including Adrian Tomine from nearby Berkeley, Chris Ware, who he refers to as both a giant and a genius in the field, as well Art Spiegelman, Thi Bui (whom he had as one of his graphic novel professors), Marjane Satrapi, and Phoebe Glockner; how the graphic novelists he's met have generally been very talkative and have quirky sensibilities, but also have introverted streaks which are necessary for long stretches alone that are necessary for producing their work; how he worked on the beginning of his graphic novel while in grad school, where the crits were very nurturing and supportive, unlike crits from back in the day (undergrad); where graphic novel reading falls in our attention economy; the value he puts on the hand-drawn in comics, with modest digital intervention; and how Vipassana meditation, the first chapter of the book, played a big role in Hugh's healing journey….

[the Conversation continues for another hour in the BONUS episode for Patreon supporters]

The Conversation Art Podcast | creating a podcast that goes behind the scenes of the art worlds | Patreon In the 2nd half of the full conversation (available to Patreon supporters), Hugh talks about: the distinction between cartooning and illustration, and how challenging it is to render a person from multiple views in that style; what feedback he's gotten so far, with at least one reader saying that it was 'very unique,' probably meaning they found it too dark; the roll his parents played (or didn't play) in healing from his trauma (the murder the book is focused on); his trolling of conspiracy theorists on social media (which is described in the book), which came out of his reaction to people making things up about who was responsible for the murder, along with the pros and cons of engaging with a conspiracy theorist; his description of 3 or 4 major career trajectory paths for artists in big art capitals, inspired by his nephew and students and their impending career paths- the A path/A-train: rock star; B path/B train: you have a partner who has a job/supports you financially; C path/train: artist with a day job; D-train: you live just outside of a major city, or in a college town, or rural areas; housing in the U.S., particularly in the art capitals (a sort of passion of both of ours) and how he bought a house in East Oakland, a part of the city he had never been in and he'd been living in the East Bay for decades; how he's in a 'coffee dessert,' meaning he needs to drive at least 10 minutes to get to a good coffee spot, leading to a beautiful paradox: as a participant in gentrifying his neighborhood, he realizes that as soon as that fancy coffee place pops up in his neighborhood, the gentrification will essentially be complete; the neighborhoods Hugh lived in in San Francisco, particularly the Mission, Hayes Valley and the Tenderloin, and their respective reputations and what he experienced living there as an older young person going to punk shows and the like; his friend Rebecca Solnit's book Hollow City, about how gentrification displaces people of color as well as creative communities; we dig quite a bit into the weeds of the housing crisis, and how he lived on the cheap in the Bay Area for years, including getting around by bike up until 10 years ago; and finally he talks about his music show highlights over the years, including his changing relationship to the Grateful Dead over the decades.