Triple P Podcast

Does working fewer hours solve the challenges facing today’s firefighters—or does the conversation need to go deeper?

Chiefs Clayton O’Brien and Josh Eberly welcome Dr. Paul Hasenmeier, Public Safety Director and Fire Chief for Hernando County, Florida, to discuss his doctoral research on reduced work hours in the fire service.

Drawing on interviews with chief fire officers in the southeastern United States, Paul explores how leaders balance firefighter wellness, operational readiness, training, staffing, and fiscal responsibility. He also shares his experience implementing a 48-hour workweek with Kelly days in his department.

The discussion goes beyond the 24/48 versus 24/72 debate to examine a central question: **Are we reducing work hours, addressing workload, or both?**

**Discussion Highlights**

• **Training and readiness:** How fewer hours on duty can affect training opportunities, incident experience, and skill development.
• **Staffing and cost:** Additional personnel, qualified acting officers, and potential increases in overtime during implementation.
• **Wellness and recovery:** Why sleep disruption, demanding shifts, and secondary employment remain important considerations.
• **Recruitment and retention:** Reduced hours can attract applicants, but leadership, culture, and resources still matter.
• **Deployment alternatives:** Additional staffed units, peak-demand EMS coverage, crew rotation, and different shift models.

**Key Takeaways**

A schedule change requires more than a new calendar. Departments must plan for staffing, training, coverage, funding, and community expectations.

Additional time off does not automatically reduce the demands of a busy shift. Examining apparatus and personnel workload can help leaders protect time for training, fitness, meals, and recovery.

Reduced work hours should be considered alongside broader wellness efforts, including peer support, exposure reduction, physical fitness, and a supportive work environment.

There is no single schedule that fits every department. Local needs and evidence should guide decisions.

**Episode Chapters**

00:09 — Meet Dr. Paul Hasenmeier
02:37 — Why he researched reduced work hours
07:46 — The four research themes
14:20 — Reduced hours beyond 24/72
15:49 — Training, experience, and readiness
23:29 — Staffing needs versus workload
28:54 — Apparatus and personnel utilization
34:30 — Economic, political, and labor considerations
45:52 — Who participated in the research
48:27 — Work-life balance and wellness
50:44 — Secondary employment and recovery
54:21 — Exploring shorter shifts
1:06:28 — Recruitment, retention, and culture
1:18:00 — Crew rotation and individual workload
1:21:17 — Balancing wellness and community service
1:28:42 — Paul’s published dissertation
1:35:00 — Final advice

*Times follow the supplied transcript and may need adjustment for the final edit.*

**Guest Resource**

Paul’s dissertation is available as a self-published book on Amazon. Search **Paul Hasenmeier** to locate his research and practical considerations for departments evaluating reduced work hours.

*The episode includes research findings and professional opinions. The study examines chief officer perceptions and does not establish a universally preferred schedule or guaranteed outcomes.*

Follow the **Triple P Podcast**, the official podcast of the **Ohio Fire Chiefs Association**, and share this episode with your chief officers, training staff, and union leadership.

Promotion changes your title but earning trust and leading your crew takes much more.

In this episode of the Triple P Podcast, host Clayton O’Brien sits down with retired Elyria Fire Chief Joe Pronesti to discuss the transition from firefighter to company officer. Drawing on 37 years in the fire service, Joe shares candid stories, hard-earned lessons, and mistakes that helped shape his leadership.

From moving from “buddy to boss” to setting expectations, holding consistent standards, and working with senior firefighters, this conversation explores what it takes to lead both in the firehouse and on the fireground. Clayton and Joe also discuss managing frustrated firefighters, keeping ego in check, building relationships with labor, and earning the trust your crew needs when a Mayday occurs.

The episode previews Joe’s Ohio Fire Chiefs Association Officer Development Series class on "Transitioning from the back step to the officer’s seat." Whether you’re preparing for promotion, newly promoted, or an experienced officer, this conversation offers practical lessons to bring back to your crew.

🎙️ Triple P Podcast — Premier • Professional • Proactive
The official podcast of the Ohio Fire Chiefs Association.

#TriplePPodcast #OhioFireChiefsAssociation #JoePronesti #FireServiceLeadership #CompanyOfficer #OfficerDevelopment #Firefighter #FireChief #FirehouseLeadership #LeadByExample #FirefighterSafety #Mayday

In this episode of the Triple P Podcast, we sit down with Paul Combs—internationally recognized fire service cartoonist, speaker, author, artist, and retired firefighter/paramedic.

Paul's work has challenged the fire service to think differently about leadership, culture, mental health, firefighter wellness, organizational accountability, and the future of our profession. Through powerful illustrations, compelling artwork, and thought-provoking commentary, he has sparked important conversations across the fire service and beyond.

During this conversation, we discuss leadership challenges facing today's fire service, the importance of self-awareness, the role of culture in organizational success, and how honest dialogue can drive meaningful change. Paul shares insights from his decades of experience and offers practical perspectives for chiefs, company officers, aspiring leaders, and firefighters at every level.

Whether you're leading an organization, preparing for promotion, or simply striving to be a better firefighter and leader, this episode delivers valuable lessons you can apply immediately.

Topics Covered:
• Fire service leadership and accountability
• Organizational culture and change
• Mental health and firefighter wellness
• Professional development and growth
• Communication and influence
• The power of art and storytelling in the fire service
• Lessons from a career in public service

Learn More About Paul Combs:
Paul's website: https://paulcombsart.com/
Art Gallery 317: https://artgallery317.com/

Subscribe to the Triple P Podcast for conversations that help fire service professionals become Premier, Professional, and Proactive leaders.

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Property tax reform in Ohio is gaining serious momentum, but for fire departments, this isn’t just policy… it’s operational reality.

In this episode of the Triple P Podcast, hosts Clayton O’Brien sits down with David Thomas to break down what’s happening at the state level and what it means for fire chiefs, command staff, and departments that rely heavily on levy-based funding.

From levy fatigue to proposed reforms that could limit revenue growth, this conversation gets into the real-world impacts and long-term sustainability.

If your department depends on property tax funding, this is a conversation you can’t afford to miss.

Reach out to Representative David Thomas -
Website - https://www.ohiohouse.gov/members/david-thomas
Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/friendsofdavidthomas
You tube- @davidthomasforohio
Tic Tok - David Thomas for Ohio

🔥 In This Episode:
What’s driving property tax reform in Ohio
The reality of levy fatigue across communities
Risks and unintended consequences of reform
What fire chiefs should be doing right now

🎯 Who This Is For:
Fire Chiefs
Command Staff
Company Officers
Municipal Leaders
Anyone involved in fire service funding and policy

🎙️ About Triple P Podcast:
Premiere. Professional. Proactive.
We focus on real-world leadership, operations, and the issues shaping the fire service today.

👍 Don’t Forget:
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You tube- https://www.youtube.com/@UC81WCUfRjY5LAmOjHGbvmEA
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#TriplePPodcast #FireServiceLeadership #FireChief #PropertyTax #OhioFire #PublicSafety #FireDepartment #EMS #LocalGovernment #Levy #HB920 #FireService #Leadership #Firefighter #EmergencyServices

In this episode of the Triple P Podcast, we sit down with James Geering, host of the Behind the Shield Podcast, for a deep dive into one of the most talked-about topics in the fire service today: the 24/72 work schedule.

James brings a global perspective shaped by his experience in the fire service and conversations with some of the most respected voices in health, wellness, and performance. Together, we break down the operational realities, cultural resistance, and long-term health implications tied to traditional schedules—and why more departments are seriously evaluating a shift to 24/72.

This episode isn’t just theory. It’s a candid, experience-driven discussion on:

Firefighter sleep, recovery, and long-term health
Recruitment and retention impacts
Work-life balance in today’s fire service
Cultural barriers to change
What departments need to consider before making the transition

If you’re a fire chief, union leader, or firefighter thinking about the future of your department, this is a must-listen conversation that challenges the status quo while staying grounded in real-world application.

🔗 Learn more about James and his work: https://www.jamesgeering.com

🎙 Triple P Podcast — Premiere. Professional. Proactive.

In this episode, we sit down with Steve, Dave, and Gina for an honest and engaging conversation about leadership, collaboration, and the realities facing today’s fire service and local government professionals.

We discuss what it takes to build strong teams, navigate organizational challenges, and keep people at the center of public service decision-making. From lessons learned to practical takeaways, this episode is packed with insight for fire chiefs, officers, administrators, and anyone committed to serving their community with integrity and purpose.

Whether you’re leading from the front office or the fireground, this conversation reinforces why relationships, communication, and trust still matter most.

Join us for a powerful session recorded live at the Ohio Fire & Rescue Officer Development Conference, featuring guest Dr. Johnny Torgelson—aka “Dr. JT”—author of the impactful book Forging Your Team: Demystifying Team Development for First Responders. In this episode of the Triple P Podcast, we dive deep into the fire-service-specific leadership and team-development strategies that Dr. JT has honed through decades of experience.

We cover:

How to transition from a group of individuals into a high-trust, high-performance team.

Practical tactics for fire chiefs and officers on culture-building, empowerment, and relational leadership in the fire-service context.

Real-world stories and lessons from Dr. JT’s career—from the U.S. Army, global fire service assignments, entrepreneurial ventures and college leadership roles.

How you can enact early wins in your department—leveraging trust, communication, and deliberate leadership—to build momentum and credibility among crews and command staff.

Whether you’re a newly minted fire chief, a battalion officer looking to elevate your crew, or a department executive seeking to embed a culture of trust and performance, this episode delivers actionable insight tailored for the fire-service world.

📚 Get the Book:
Purchase Forging Your Team here:
• Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1593706057

Amazon

• Bookshop.org: https://bookshop.org/p/books/forging-your-team-demystifying-team-development-for-first-responders-johnny-torgeson/b0f6bb102e522173

Bookshop

🌐 Visit the Website:
For more from Dr. JT (seminars, consulting, free team-resources): https://forgingteams.com/

Forging Teams

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#FireLeadership #TeamDevelopment #FireService #ForgingYourTeam #DrJT #TriplePPodcast #OhioFireConference #FireChief #HighPerformanceTeams

Tune in, take notes, and let’s get serious about forging your team. 💪

Dr. David Griffin, a Charleston, South Carolina native, is a nationally recognized leader, speaker, author, and fire service professional whose life was forever changed on June 18, 2007. As the driver of the first engine on scene at the devastating Sofa Super Store fire that claimed the lives of nine Charleston firefighters, David was thrust into a journey of trauma, transformation, and ultimately, purpose.

Haunted by survivor’s guilt, Griffin initially spiraled into destructive coping mechanisms including alcohol, painkillers, and professional mixed martial arts fighting. After a punishing bout with UFC veteran Houston “The Assassin” Alexander left him battered and soul-searching, he came to a powerful realization: the path he was on did not honor the legacy of the nine lives lost. That moment became the catalyst for his life’s mission to lead change, challenge outdated systems, and promote healing and resilience among first responders and organizations worldwide.

Today, Dr. Griffin holds a Doctorate of Education in Organizational Leadership and Development, a Master’s Degree in Executive Fire Service Leadership, and a Bachelor of Science in Education from The Citadel, where he also played Division I baseball and later coached. He currently serves as the Assistant Chief for the Charleston Fire Department, having held every uniformed rank, and leads the department’s Honor Guard and Mental Health Peer Support Team.

He is a graduate of the National Fire Academy’s Executive Fire Officer program and has completed executive education at Harvard, Yale, Cornell, and through the IAFC’s Fire Service Executive Development Institute. He is a Certified Fire Officer IV, Chief Fire Officer (CFO), and Chief Training Officer (CTO), and is an active member of the IAFC and the Institution of Fire Engineers (MIFireE).

Beyond his fire service career, Griffin’s personal journey is one of grit and resilience. From overcoming doubts as a young athlete to becoming a state bodybuilding champion, professional MMA fighter, marathoner, and Ironman triathlete, he lives what he teaches. He was a rider in the 1,700-mile Brotherhood Ride from Florida to Ground Zero and continues to pursue fitness through boxing, surfing, Brazilian jiu-jitsu, and more.

In 2013, David launched The Find Your Mission Tour, an international movement of leadership, mental health awareness, and cultural reform. Over the last 12 years, he has spoken to more than 1,300 organizations across 47 U.S. states and multiple countries, reaching over 550,000 people in five languages. His audiences include fire and police departments, military units, universities, private companies, and nonprofits.

He is also a best-selling author with four published books:

In Honor of The Charleston 9: A Study of Change Following Tragedy

ACTION: 9 Missions for Personal and Professional Growth

From PTSD to PTG: A Firefighter’s (MY) Journey After a Multiple LODD Incident

Tattoos and Trauma: The Healing Power of Tattoos for Emergency Responders

Griffin is currently working on three new books:
I’ll Stand By You, Principled Leadership From The Road Less Traveled, and Handwritten Hope: Poetry and Prose to Cope. His wife, Melissa Griffin, is also an author, having written Inspiration from a Wife on a Mission Following Tragedy, which details the challenges of supporting a partner with PTSD.

Dr. David Griffin is living proof that adversity can be transformed into impact. His message is clear: trauma does not have to define you your mission can.

Courtney Hull is the Associate Dean of Fire/EMS Training at Waukesha County Technical College in Pewaukee, Wisconsin, and the founder of Plugged In, LLC, a company focused on leadership and relationship development, communication, and connection in high-stakes environments.
A former career Firefighter/AEMT, Courtney transitioned to Fire/EMS education full time in 2010 after teaching part-time since 2007. She holds a master’s degree in training & development and is passionate about shaping the future of emergency services through inclusive, high-quality education.
As a classroom leader, Courtney is known for building strong relationships with students, designing creative, engaging lessons that proactively manage classroom dynamics, and providing holistic support to increase student success. Her leadership style is driven by her CliftonStrengths of Learner, Developer, and Relator—she’s energized by helping people grow, learn, and connect with purpose.
Courtney’s strategic mindset shines in her ability to rally teams around a shared vision, foster inclusive and engaged cultures, and generate fresh, effective solutions to stubborn challenges. Whether in a classroom, firehouse, or boardroom, she’s committed to developing resilient, high-performing teams that thrive under pressure.
Clifton Strengths: https://www.gallup.com/cliftonstrengths/en/252137/home.aspx
Learner, Developer, Relator, Individualization, Analytical
https://www.linkedin.com/in/courtney-hull-aa5b8b73/

Jeremy Blair is a career Battalion Chief with the City of Wauwatosa Fire Department and a seasoned Fire/EMS Instructor at Waukesha County Technical College, where he has been preparing the next generation of firefighters for state certification and real-world service. With 29 years of experience in fire and emergency services, Jeremy brings a grounded, real-talk approach to leadership, communication, and personal development.
A dedicated mentor and motivator, Jeremy thrives in every setting—whether leading crews in the firehouse, instructing in the classroom, or presenting in front of a professional audience. He is known for creating learning environments that are practical, engaging, and growth-focused, blending high standards with high support. His leadership is anchored in clear direction, accountability, meaningful feedback, and a deep commitment to helping others reach their potential.
Jeremy’s Clifton Strengths—Woo, Communication, Significance, Ideation, and Context—shape his dynamic presence as a speaker. He connects quickly with audiences, delivers messages that resonate, and brings energy, insight, and authenticity to every engagement. Whether he's training future firefighters or inspiring current leaders, Jeremy leaves listeners with the tools and motivation to grow, lead, and make an impact.
https://www.linkedin.com/in/jblair6255/

WCTC - https://www.wctc.edu/

This episode we sat down with Lt. Welch and Battalion Chief Cooper of the Findlay Police and Fire Departments. They share their experience in implementing school safety measures against active shooter threats.

Email - fireadmin@findlayohio.com

Chief Billy Goldfeder, EFO, a firefighter since 1973, serves as deputy fire chief of the Loveland-Symmes (Ohio) Fire Department. He also serves as Lexipol’s senior fire advisor and is a member of the Fire Chief/FireRescue1 Editorial Advisory Board. Goldfeder is a member of the Board of Directors for several organizations: the IAFC, the September 11th Families Association and the National Fallen Firefighters Foundation (NFFF). He also provides expert review assistance to the CDC NIOSH Fire Fighter Fatality Investigation and Prevention Program. Goldfeder is the recipient of numerous operational and administrative awards, appointments and recognitions. He has served on several NFPA and IAFC committees, has authored numerous articles and books, and presented several sessions at industry events. Chief Goldfeder co-hosts the website www.FireFighterCloseCalls.com.

Books - https://fireengineeringbooks.com/books/30-fires-you-must-know/?srsltid=AfmBOopg2vungjGbBp17mKynaj0M3kPZYwe8FLFIt8eYwWcSPfnerWhV

In this episode of the Triple P Podcast, we're joined by Nick Martin, a nationally respected fire service leader, instructor, and founder of Combat Ready Fire. Nick brings decades of experience in fireground operations, tactical command, and leadership development and he shares it all in this dynamic and insightful conversation.
We dive into:
• The mindset behind Combat Ready
• Building credibility as a leader through action
• Making fireground decisions under pressure
• The value of humility and continual learning
• Real-world advice for new officers and seasoned leaders alike
Nick's perspective is gritty, grounded, and mission-focused his is an episode every firefighter, officer, and chief should hear.

Connect with Nick Martin:
Instagram: @combatreadyfire
Website: www.combatreadyfire.com

In this episode of the Triple P Podcast, we welcome a distinguished guest, Dr. Denis Onieal, former Deputy U.S. Fire Administrator and long-time leader at the National Fire Academy (NFA). Dr. Onieal brings decades of experience in fire service education, leadership development, and national fire policy. We dive into the evolution of the NFA, the critical role of professional development in shaping fire service leaders, and how departments of all sizes can leverage NFA resources to build smarter, safer communities. Dr. Onieal also shares his thoughts on the future of the fire service, the importance of lifelong learning, and practical advice for today’s fire chiefs navigating complex leadership challenges. Whether you're a seasoned chief or a new officer, this conversation is packed with insight, inspiration, and actionable takeaways.

Megan's website RescueRD - https://www.rescuerd.com/

I am a dietitian obsessed with practical, realistic nutrition strategies for shiftwork.
I have been working as a full-time, embedded civilian dietitian for departments of +1,400 firefighters since 2017. I have trained for and passed CPAT, and am always up for a ride-along or a fitness challenge. I can often be found at a station or academy teaching nutrition, fitness, mobility, or just hanging out to learn more about firefighters.
I am here to help firefighters maximize their energy levels, body composition, and retirement WITHOUT fads or yo-yo diets. I take the research on first responder health and translate it into firefighter language. My coaching programs help firefighters reach their goals while enjoying their favorite foods.
​Nutrition is often overlooked in the first responder space, which is why RescueRD LLC was born in October 2020. I have strived to fill that gap one presentation, conference, workshop, or course at a time!

This interview is with Thom Shea the author of the books "Unbreakable" and "Three Simple Things"

Thom is a retired navy seal who was on many deployments over his navy seal career. He was a seal instructor for ten seal classes. He worked with other well known seals such as Jocko Willink also a well know author and leader and Christopher Kyle who was the seal from the movie "American Sniper".

Thom shares many great stories and gives plenty of good advice for all of us that are trying to be better leaders ourselves.

Pick up Thom's books from Amazon here:
Unbreakable - https://www.amazon.com/Unbreakable-Thom-Shea-audiobook/dp/B0153P0V7S/ref=sr_1_7?crid=2AGGNO3BAGHJ6&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.Ctwkyb9ZaJw-NiXebKyQsUjqy_V8tjxww9kVLy84GDgLnoyfY0lHgX2InIlgjt35ufij6uRjAIGG6kAlR1lnKo3svPUB1u5hKB_fcjBvtVDv8PvrK7Qn2cHQQezPXsL_qRbOMBLI4OviMKAU-RPwMAslYUDYmgTd6GHFOuFGlB-HU8CxcBR4ocNm_yuLgNuyn-nwKVzN0Um32lv19KKnAIbklKosG0WtBPQ92kZhBoOfTFt7W1kT5fLkDzD6F3ll180bgweyqkcKBKGblprHrLXp_kDVp6LtnpyrLEzqNX84Bsop0JTSyqekO1SU0rfjGuyqKaFYqnCpgA6ldcfarCE_SgkS0MvBWHT0ke5oHSng10kohekgQOUNedPTE95N2y_FLX7Eph4wDr3eghN4o8jGbG_ew9YJySRy6M7-3tjHm0GuQnKpNJH4d_rwMym7.JgCA2vJ6dSvfBQZ92U_HYu8nuruwFC8KfDEnujLZVR4&dib_tag=se&keywords=unbreakable+book&qid=1739913925&sprefix=unbreakable+book%2Caps%2C132&sr=8-7

Three Simple Things: https://www.amazon.com/Three-Simple-Things-Leading-During/dp/B08N5MGFY6/ref=sr_1_1?crid=627EKI9Y3SY7&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.N6nYTpWh-3PNx16RC0qxcMsGDU_YDGh_ekNf_6PK6lX3_ScX0sldDCR6XshqTESM42JMVE-TqMM12yx56GNgDVuY4s4Xfx0OKs5dZp548RrdJxvPJ8hgV98gB27yiNXU4tGlRXG6rh2ZKA8W-mQp73SfKV8fCcLVSYQ2SF2Gwg53jnBjPoLNZO0K4kmwGg5zpb0b4ByxgjqKOk7q1x1cJVIBUjeUZZ66lNCg44twxhULAmKA5ZR5N83WKZ73RfOtF3Wmbv6DL7D2RmNrk5OPJg.-aka3sW1dvHdPwNnD3905RGgva-T4vW_-p8Ir4Mo2uc&dib_tag=se&keywords=three+simple+things&qid=1739913967&s=audible&sprefix=three+simple+things%2Caudible%2C106&sr=1-1

Make_ it_with_Stacy: - Follow Thom's wife Stacy (the spartan women) cooking page "Make_it_with_Stacy" on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/make_it_with_stacy/?igsh=MTBwNzdxb2p0andhag%3D%3D#

This New Fire Chiefs Roundtable episode is packed with information on what to expect if you are a new fire chief or inspiring to be a chief.

Host - Clayton O'Brien - Fire Chief City of Oregon (cobrien@oregonohio.org)
Co-Host - Josh Eberly - Fire Chief City of Findlay (jeberle@findlayohio.gov)
Guest - Shawn Wittkop - Fire Chief City of Defiance (swittkop@cityofdefiance.com)
Guest - David Bowen - Fire Chief City of Napoleon (dbowen@napoleonohio.com)
Guest - Cuyler Kepling - Fire Chief City of Swanton (firechief@swantonfire.com)

This episode teaches the first responder what to look for when it comes to human trafficking. iEmpathize travels the country to teach this course.

Website to access the training course can be found here - https://iempathize.org/

Contact information -
Mark Brende
Strategic Partnerships and Outreach
303-809-1896
mark@iempathize.org

Listen in as we continue with the interview with former Chief, Mayor and State Fire Marshal Mike Bell.

Listen in as Mike Bell talks about how he last 16 years as Fire Chief for Toledo Fire and Rescue and how it prepared him for State Fire Marshal and City of Toledo Mayor.

Ian Emmons is the Deputy Chief of Operations for Sarasota County Fire Department. Listen in as Ian talks about building relationships and making big life changes and how to know if it is right for you.