Trust Me: Cults, Extreme Belief, and Manipulation

This week is part two with Makelle Bistline, one of polygamist cult leader Sam Bateman’s former wives who helped take him down from the inside. She returns to share how she finally relented and became Bateman’s 22nd wife after he wore down her resistance with pressure and isolation, how Bateman systematically married all the women and girls in her family, and when she began to notice Sam's troubling behavior with the underage girls.

Makelle explains how she began secretly collaborating with Dr. Christine Marie (Lola’s mom) to collect evidence for the authorities, and what it was like living through the FBI raid that changed everything. She also discusses how her friendship with Nomz Bistline has evolved through this experience, why she chose not to appear in the Netflix documentary Trust Me: The False Prophet, and how she's doing now.

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This week’s guest is Makelle Bistline, who grew up in the polygamist sect the FLDS and became one of the wives of self-proclaimed prophet Samuel Bateman–ultimately playing a crucial role in bringing him down. Makelle did not appear in the Netflix series Trust Me, which follows how Lola’s mom got him arrested, but her involvement in the takedown was instrumental. In part one, she reveals what it was like growing up under Warren Jeffs’ teachings, falling asleep to recordings of his voice, and watching Sam Bateman claim to be the new prophet.

Makelle explains how secretly listening to Taylor Swift helped her question what she’d been taught about the outside world, the ways she resisted Bateman’s control, and how escalating pressure and being sent away eventually led her to become his 22nd wife. Next week, she’ll return to share how she began sneakily communicating with Lola’s mom and passing evidence to authorities.

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This week, the girls are joined again by Felicia Rosario, survivor of the cult at Sarah Lawrence, led by a man named Larry Ray. Today Felicia, who previously came on the show along with fellow survivor Daniel Levin, explains how Larry drew her in over time by love bombing her, winning over her social circle first, and using his genuinely powerful connections to give himself a mystique and an air of authority.

Felicia shares more about Larry’s crimes and abuse, what made her decide to finally finally decide to leave, and the life she’s built for herself since—as an expert witness testifying about coercion. She explains some of the factors one can point to in court to establish that someone has been under coercive control. They also discuss the Cornell case and how common it is for people to behave unexpectedly when they’ve just experienced something traumatic.

SOURCES

Felicia Rosario Consulting

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This week, author and historian Stephen Kinzer joins Trust Me to discuss his book, Poisoner in Chief, and its subject: chemist Sidney Gottlieb, who led mind control experiments in the CIA’s Project MKUltra. Stephen explains who Gottlieb was and how he came to lead this harrowing attempt to control the human mind, what Operation Paperclip was (the US saved doctor-torturers from Nazi Germany and Japan and gave them jobs), and how the CIA began experimenting on subjects in other countries in horrific ways—all in the name of patriotism and “fighting communism.”

Stephen describes Gottlieb’s obsession with LSD and how the CIA began conducting drug experiments on inmates, people in psychiatric institutions, and other unwitting folks. He discusses the hunt for the perfect mind control tactic, how the word “brainwashing” can’t be separated from the Red Scare, and how none of the experiments were fruitful.

Plus, whether Gottlieb experienced any remorse later in life, and how we have the CIA to thank for the explosion of LSD onto the American scene (and, ironically, the major role it played in the anti-war movement).

SOURCES

Poisoner in Chief: Sidney Gottlieb and the CIA Search for Mind Control

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This week is part two with advocate and therapist Renee Spencer, who sued the Jesus Christians, aka the “kidney cult,” after they recruited her daughter. Last week, Renee explained how she realized her daughter Ellicia’s communication was being controlled, and this week she picks back up on Ellicia’s mysterious whereabouts around the world--going wherever the group sent her, cutting off emotional contact, and virtually disappearing from Renee's life.

Renee shares how the group’s leader, Dave McKay, began accusing her of being a Satan worshipper, which was used to demonize her and keep Ellicia away. Renee shares how she’s connected with other parents, what she learned about some of the things her daughter has been through (including their highly punitive “grievance” system), and how Renee finally took Dave McKay to court.

SOURCES

Recover From Coercive Control

SOCCHG

CIFS Australia

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This week is part 1 with advocate and therapist Renee Spencer, whose daughter was recruited into the Jesus Christians: a group commonly referred to as the “kidney cult” for their practice of encouraging members to donate their kidneys to strangers. Renee shares about her and her daughter Ellicia’s close relationship, how Ellicia suddenly stopped contacting Renee, and why Renee tried to be accepting of her daughter’s choices–even while slowly learning that Ellicia had joined a mysterious group of traveling Christians and was being isolated from her former life.

She explains how Ellicia was initially recruited through YouTube, how Ellicia told Renee she was engaged to someone from the group after just a couple of months, and the minimal contact Renee was allowed when she visited. They discuss what she learned about Ellicia’s new husband Joseph, the whipping “trials” the group’s leader had organized to teach Joseph’s family a lesson, and how Renee discovered that her daughter’s communication had been far more controlled than she even realized.

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We’re back with twins Larena and Elyse Wynn, also known as Mothermary. In part 2 this week they’ll talk about how Elyse got fed up with being obsessive about sin all the time, which led her to hitch a ride out of Idaho and into Salt Lake City. Living with former Mormons, she explains how that’s where her worldview began to crack–especially after she attended Pride for the first time.

Meanwhile, Larena talks about how her marriage–and her time in the church–ended, and the girls will share how they began their journeys working as professional dominatrixes. They discuss the importance of boundaries and communication, the parallels and differences between power dynamics in BDSM and religion, and whether someone in a religion that insists they be submissive can truly enter the mindset called “sub space.”

Plus, all about their band, and what their music means to them.

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This week is part 1 with musicians, identical twins, and former Mormons turned dominatrixes Larena and Elyse Wynn, also known by their band name Mothermary. The girls share what it was like being raised in the LDS church, and how “Montana Mormons” may have had a more fear-based culture than Mormons in other parts of the country. They’ll talk about going to BYU Idaho, and how after having sex with her boyfriend—one of the worst sins you could commit in the church—Larena was told by her bishop that she needed to marry her boyfriend in order to not get kicked out of college.

Elyse describes having a similar experience in high school, and how both were told by their bishop to read a book called The Miracle of Forgiveness in order to repent, which basically told them that all the things that make you human are wrong. Elyse explains how she became obsessed with not sinning, why it made her so depressed she couldn’t eat, and how she realized she needed to get out of there.

In part two next week, Larena tells the story of how she got out of her marriage, and how they both came to work as dominatrixes.

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This week’s guest is psychology researcher and lecturer Dr. John Hunter, joining the show to talk about intensive self-help seminars–known as “large group awareness trainings,” or LGATs–and the emotions they produce. He shares about his personal experience with bipolar disorder and hypomania, and how the LGAT his employer sent him to seemed to induce a state of hypomania in its attendees.

John explains his dopamine hypothesis, why these trainings feel so euphoric at the end (and how rarely people tend to genuinely transform in the long-term), and how some folks have even entered prolonged manic states after attending an LGAT. But also, as always: how it’s not completely black and white.

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This week, the girls are joined by Laci Mosley, comedian, actress, and host of the Scam Goddess podcast and TV show (and author of Scam Goddess the book), to talk about the many types of frauds that are out there, from romance scams to financial fraud to Munchausen by proxy. She talks about what makes us susceptible to scams, and how much overlap there is between the way that scams and cults operate.

Laci shares about the time she got scammed by a psychic in an airport, how even the most smart, successful people get swindled, and the lessons we can all take from scammers to be a little scammier–but like in a good way.

SOURCES

Scam Goddess

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This week, Meagan and Lola sit down with Michelle McPhee, investigative reporter and host of podcast Kingdom of Fraud, to discuss how Jacob Kingston, a fundamentalist Mormon from the secretive polygamist sect known as the Kingston clan, or the “Order,” teamed up with a shadowy Armenian tycoon nicknamed “the Lion” to commit one of the largest fraud schemes in U.S. history.

She’ll explain how Jacob’s drive to prove himself as one of over 100 siblings within the insular Kingston hierarchy got him in over his head with Levon Termendzhyan, his unlikely partner in the massive scheme they embarked on: it involved renewable fuel tax credits, international money laundering, powerful political connections, and billions of dollars. Plus, how they finally got caught–with the help of a couple of Trust Me’s previous guests.

SOURCES

Kingdom of Fraud

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This week is part 2 with Anke Richter, journalist, author of Cult Trip, former member of Tantric group ISTA, and founder and director of New Zealand’s cult conference DeCult. In part 2 with Anke, she explains how the founder of International School of Temple Arts had constructed a sort of harem culture and was sleeping with all the women, where the line is between normal dating in a community vs. coercion, and how her journalistic investigation into a different tantra group while still actively in this one finally set off her alarm bells.

They discuss what’s positive about the tantric world, how the flip side of sex-positive groups can be a pressure to act sex positive when you don’t actually FEEL sex positive, and why she started cult conference Decult.

SOURCES

Cult Trip

DECULT

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Today is part 1 with Anke Richter, journalist, author of Cult Trip, former member of Tantric group International School of Temple Arts, and founder and director of New Zealand’s cult conference DeCult. In this week’s episode she shares how she began as a journalist investigating cults, but when she went to a tantric sex festival, she had a peak experience with ecstatic dancing that made her never want to go back to her old way of life.

She’ll talk about doing her first training in tantric pleasure, which got her deeper into ISTA and the idea of tantric polarity and exploring her feminine energy that she’d felt she’d been missing, and how the intensity and the highs she felt in these communities made real life seem boring. Plus, how there often aren’t a lot of sexual communities to choose from in general, which can create room for the sketchier ones to flourish.

SOURCES

Cult Trip

DECULT

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This week is part two with Sophie Fergi, former child influencer featured in the Netflix docuseries Bad Influence: The Dark Side of Kidfluencing. In this episode, she shares what happened after she and her mom moved in with Piper Rockelle and Piper's mom Tiffany, how Tiffany's explosive rage became impossible to ignore, and what it was like filming long, highly controlled days--and then spending their nights cleaning up after more than 70 cats.

Sophie also reveals how Tiffany manufactured conflict between the other kids' parents, how her inappropriate behavior escalated through her bizarre animal characters, and why Tiffany secretly sent photos and inappropriate personal belongings to a fan named "Megan"—who was later revealed to be an adult man. Sophie discusses the breaking point that led her to leave, what it was like to be completely shunned by the Squad after she left, and the advocacy work she's been doing to protect other kidfluencers.

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This week is part one with Sophie Fergi, former child influencer who told her story in the Netflix docuseries Bad Influence: The Dark Side of Kidfluencing. In this episode, she explains how she first met YouTube kidfluencer Piper Rockelle, and how Piper’s mom Tiffany formed the “Squad,” a group of children making content together for their YouTube channels.

Sophie will share what it was like to film the videos, which included fake challenges, fake crushes and relationships, and carefully curated drama that blurred the line between reality and performance, and how she began to see red flags with Tiffany, who created characters - based on family animals - which she used to speak inappropriately to the kids.

Next week, she’ll talk about moving in with Tiffany and Piper, and how everything began to escalate.

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This week, the girls are back with Jasper Hoffman, writer, podcaster, and former Mennonite. In part two today, Jasper explains what the perfect Mennonite woman looked like, how concerns were raised when she wasn't compliant enough, and how over time she became depressed and developed an eating disorder in response to the pressures of the group.

She’ll share how her mom secretly found her a therapist on the outside, even though it was against the rules, and how that therapist helped her write a letter to withdraw her membership, which led to the harassment of her family. We’ll talk about how she tried to go back after she left but realized she really didn’t belong, and why she started the Plain People’s Podcast.

SOURCES

The Plain People's Podcast

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This week, the girls are joined by Jasper Hoffman, writer, podcaster, and former Mennonite. In part one, she explains how her parents went from a being punk rock atheist and an anthropology major to homesteading, homeschooling, and going to church: first a non-denominational one, and then a Mennonite church that came to town for “Revival Week” when Jasper was a kid.

She’ll describe how it then escalated to her family moving to the Midwest, getting rid of all of their material possessions, and committing wholeheartedly to being Mennonites, with redacted encyclopedias and physical punishment in the basement for children who were considered rebellious–and why she was forbidden from going back to school.

Plus, stay tuned for part two next week, in which she tells her story of leaving the church.

SOURCES

The Plain People's Podcast

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This week, Lola’s mom Dr. Christine Marie (and the podcast’s very first guest!) comes back on the show to talk about moving to FLDS town Short Creek, how she and Lola’s stepdad Tolga earned the trust of new self-proclaimed polygamist prophet Sam Bateman, and what else was going on behind the scenes of what’s in the Netflix docuseries Trust Me: The False Prophet.

She’ll tell the girls about her frustrations with the speed of the case, what it was like going undercover with the FBI, the bravery of all of the women involved, and being there for the raid that finally landed him in prison for sexual abuse.

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In part two with Nikki G., she discusses more of the high-control groups she joined, the political project of the Seven Mountain Mandate that she was part of, the connection between biblical concepts of obedience and white supremacy, and how everyone joins cults, even if white people are the biggest group talking about it. Plus, the difference between “church hurt” and religious trauma.

SOURCES

Surviving the Black Church Podcast

Black Religious Trauma Recovery Network

Nikki G. Speaks

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This week, Nikki G., host of Surviving the Black Church and survivor of FIVE different high-control groups, discusses joining the first church on her cult-hopping journey, how she got initially pulled down the rabbit hole by conspiracy theories and the Book of Revelation, and the intensity and community that drew her to each group.

She tells the girls about her second and more radical group, IHOP (International House of Prayer), how she eventually learned the term “religious addiction,” and why the idea of “waiting for your Boaz,” or your perfect husband, can be so harmful for women in the church.

SOURCES

Surviving the Black Church Podcast

Black Religious Trauma Recovery Network

Nikki G. Speaks

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