Coming Out & Beyond | Support for Women Questioning Their Sexuality

Summary

When the holidays arrive in the middle of questioning your sexuality, coming out, or changing your family life, familiar traditions can carry unexpected grief. What used to feel joyful may now feel complicated. You are allowed to meet that change at your own pace.

In the first of a two-part holiday conversation, Anne-Marie Zanzal welcomes LGBTQ+ coach Anna Empey to talk about preparing for the season ahead. Anne-Marie shares a painful Christmas before separating from her husband, when she felt pressured to host as she had for more than twenty-five years. She also recalls the quieter holidays that followed when her children spent part of Christmas with their father, and how making a simple plan helped her through the day.

Together, Anne-Marie and Anna explore how to name grief, set boundaries before family gatherings, consider the timing of coming-out conversations, find support, and create traditions that fit your life now. The goal isn't a perfect holiday. It's making room for a season that feels more manageable, supported, and yours.

Key takeaways

• Name what you are grieving. Acknowledging changing relationships and traditions can help you recognize what's weighing on you.
• Decide on boundaries before gatherings. You can choose which invitations to accept, how long to stay, and when to leave.
• Let coming-out conversations happen on your terms. Consider your family dynamics, emotional safety, and readiness rather than a holiday deadline.
• Plan for both company and quiet. A supportive person to text and a plan for time alone can make difficult moments easier to navigate.
• Make room for new traditions. Small, meaningful rituals can honor the past while making space for the life you're building.

Episode timestamps

(00) An invitation to do less this holiday season

(03) Recognizing grief before it catches you off guard

(07) Anne-Marie's painful Christmas before separation

(09) Setting boundaries before family gatherings

(12) Deciding when to come out to family

(16) Building support before the holidays

(17) Preparing for the quiet moments

(21) Creating new traditions and meaningful rituals

(25) Two lists for a gentler holiday season

Links and resources

Anne-Marie Zanzal — Coaching and Support

https://annemariezanzal.com/

Authentically Us Community

https://community.annemariezanzal.com/

The Clarity Event — November 14–15, 2026

https://annemariezanzal.com/clarity-event/

Anna Empey — Business Inspired Solutions

https://businessinspiredsolutions.co/

SUMMARY

How does someone go from quietly questioning her sexuality to sharing her story in The New York Times? In this episode of Coming Out and Beyond, Anne-Marie Zanzal is joined by Tonda McKay and Barbara Rowlandson to reflect on a feature about Shelly, a woman navigating marriage, divorce, and coming out later in life. Anne-Marie explains how the article developed, the steps taken to protect the privacy of her support community, and how Shelly became its central subject.

The conversation moves beyond the headline to the emotional realities of questioning sexuality in midlife: grief, internalized homophobia, compulsory heterosexuality, and the pressure to have known sooner. Anne-Marie and Barb discuss the role of structured support and self-compassion, while Tonda describes the confidence she sees grow as women find a community that understands them. They also reflect on Shelly's courage in making her story public before having every answer, and on how taking one brave step can make others possible. Above all, this is a conversation about visibility, belonging, and knowing that coming out later in life is not something anyone has to face alone.

Key Takeaways

You don't need every answer before taking a step. Shelly was still navigating major changes in her life when she chose to share her experience publicly.

Privacy and visibility can coexist. Anne-Marie explains the care taken to inform participants, protect personal sessions, and establish boundaries with the reporter.

Questioning later in life can bring grief and shame. The discussion addresses compulsory heterosexuality, internalized homophobia, and the importance of treating yourself with compassion.

Community helps people move from isolation to belonging. Anne-Marie, Barb, and Tonda describe how shared stories and ongoing support help members feel seen and build confidence.

Courage can carry into other parts of life. Shelly's progress with a fear of travel and Barb's experience learning to drive show how one change can open the door to another.

TIMESTAMPS

(00) From hiding to The New York Times

(03) How the article began and community privacy was protected

(05) Why Shelly became the featured subject

(09) Finding support and community

(16) Beyond grief, shame, and self-compassion

(20) Building a safe and supportive community

(27) From isolation to confidence and belonging

(30) Shelly's courage to share her story

(34) Why later-in-life coming-out stories deserve visibility

LINKS

The New York Times article about Shelly: https://www.nytimes.com/2026/10/14/well/family/coming-out-midlife.html

Anne-Marie Zanzal's website: https://annemariezanzal.com/

Authentically Us community: https://community.annemariezanzal.com/

Coming Out & Beyond podcast: https://annemariezanzal.com/coming-out-stories-beyond-podcast/

Summary:

In this episode of Coming Out & Beyond, Anne-Marie Zanzal is joined by her wife, Tonda McKay, and Barbara Rowlandson to answer real questions from Reddit about lesbian dating, intimacy, and relationships later in life.

One question comes from a woman in her 50s who has recently embraced her lesbian identity and developed feelings for the only openly lesbian friend she knows. Unsure whether her attraction is genuine or influenced by familiarity, she wonders whether to reveal her feelings and risk changing their friendship. The hosts discuss navigating attraction, coming out to friends, and recognizing the possibility of mutual interest.

The conversation also explores how to communicate sexual desires without feeling embarrassed, whether financial insecurity should prevent someone from dating women, and how much of your romantic and sexual history you should share with a partner.

Along the way, Anne-Marie and Tonda reflect on ten years together and five years of marriage, highlighting the work involved in maintaining a healthy relationship. Through personal experiences, practical advice, and humor, the hosts address common uncertainties women face when exploring love and relationships later in life.

Key Takeaways:

Coming Out and Confessing Romantic Feelings Are Two Different Conversations

When developing feelings for a longtime friend, sharing your sexual identity doesn't have to mean immediately revealing your attraction. The hosts encourage taking things one step at a time, allowing space to understand the friend's response and see how the relationship develops.

Communicating Sexual Desires Requires Trust and Vulnerability

Expressing what you want in bed can feel intimidating, particularly when you're afraid of rejection or disappointing your partner. The discussion emphasizes having sensitive conversations in comfortable settings, approaching new ideas with openness, and recognizing that communication is essential to healthy intimacy.

Financial Insecurity Doesn't Make You Undesirable

Traditional expectations about who pays for dates don't necessarily apply to relationships between women. The hosts challenge assumptions about money and dating, suggesting affordable ways to connect while emphasizing that financial circumstances don't determine someone's worth as a romantic partner.

Your Relationship History Doesn't Have to Be an Open Book

Not sharing every detail of your romantic or sexual past isn't automatically dishonest. The hosts explore the difference between privacy and secrecy, explaining why personal boundaries matter and how sharing meaningful experiences can help build trust without requiring a complete account of previous relationships.

Long-Term Relationships Require Ongoing Effort

Reflecting on their marriage, Anne-Marie and Tonda acknowledge that even loving, successful relationships involve difficult periods. Their experiences highlight the importance of honest communication, commitment, and working through challenges rather than expecting relationships to be perfect.

Timestamps:

(00:00) Could Her Lesbian Friend Already Have Feelings for Her?

(04:35) The Reality of Maintaining a Long-Term Relationship

(07:43) How to Ask Your Partner for What You Want in Bed

(10:29) Navigating Vulnerability and Fear of Rejection

(16:38) Can You Date Women When You're Financially Struggling?

(20:40) Financial Insecurity and Feeling Desirable

(28:07) A Late-Bloomer Lesbian Develops Feelings for Her Friend

(31:33) Should You Come Out Before Confessing Your Crush?

(37:34) How Much of Your Relationship History Should You Share?

(47:17) Telling Your Partner They're Your First Sexual Experience

(51:04) Finding Support Through the Authentically Us Community

Links:

• Anne-Marie Zanzal's Website: https://annemariezanzal.com/
• Authentically Us Community: https://community.annemariezanzal.com/

Content note: this episode includes discussion of conversion therapy and religious trauma.

Two hundred episodes. We still can't quite believe it either. To celebrate this milestone, and National Coming Out Day, Anne-Marie Zanzal gathers three of her all-time favorite guests around the mic: her wife Tonda McKay, coach and therapist Barb Rowlandson, and coach and business consultant Anna Empey.

Anne-Marie shares how the show began, with Anna nudging her for three years to start a podcast until a pandemic finally changed her mind. Then each woman tells her own coming out story, from oldest to youngest by coming out date. Tonda was a good Southern Baptist college student in 1981 when a kiss with her prayer partner sent her walking back to her dorm convinced there was no going back. Anna grew up Mormon, went through conversion therapy at BYU, and then fell in love with her friend Katelyn by accident. Barb came out at 45 after 21 years of marriage, in a small town where the news traveled faster than she did. And Anne-Marie, who took ten years to come out, remembers the Facebook group that finally gave her language for who she was, and the Nashville woman with the Southern accent who was willing to wait.

Along the way, the four talk honestly about what community looked like before the internet, why "go find an old lesbian" can be hit or miss, the quiet power of the casual coming out, and why none of them care anymore who has an opinion about their queerness. If you are in the messy middle right now, take heart from one of our longtime community members, who reminded a room full of newcomers this week that it gets better.

So many of the stories in this episode come back to one thing: how much harder coming out is when you are doing it alone. Authentically Us is the community Anne-Marie built so you don't have to. It's a private online space for women questioning their sexuality and coming out later in life, with live group gatherings every week, a monthly spiritual circle, and a room full of women who understand exactly where you are because they've been there too. Membership is $39 a month or $390 a year. Come find your people at https://bit.ly/Authentically-Us

n.b. In the show, we mention National Coming Out Day as being founded in in the late 1970s, but it was established in 1988, marking the anniversary of the 1987 March on Washington.

What is the difference between a coach and a therapist, and how do you know which one you need? Anne-Marie Zanzal welcomes back her frequent guest and longtime business coach Anna Empey, owner of Business Inspired Solution, for an honest conversation about the kinds of support available to women coming out later in life.

Both women have spent years in therapy, and both are clear that it matters. They talk about what licensed therapists do that coaches cannot, why anyone leaving a high control religion deserves a therapist who truly understands religious trauma, and how a good coach knows when to refer out. Anne-Marie shares how she resisted the word "coach" for years before becoming the first coming out coach, and how her work as a hospice chaplain taught her to sit with people without trying to fix them.

They also explore the difference between group therapy and mutual support, why knowing your values makes so many decisions easier, and what to ask before you hire anyone to walk beside you. Whether you are questioning, coming out, or building a business, you will leave with a clearer sense of what support fits your life right now.

If this conversation stirred something in you, This Authentic Life may be the next step. It is a 16 week cohort program for women coming out later in life, and you will meet with the same small community of women every week, women who come to know your story, along with Barb and me. The October Cohort meets Wednesdays at 7:00 PM Central on Zoom, beginning October 7. Enrollment includes two private calls with me, membership in our Authentically Us community, and immediate access to the Maybe I Am Not Straight course and the Catalyst Chapter, so you can begin before the first session. Enrollment for this cohort closes October 6.

You can learn more and enroll here:

https://annemariezanzal.com/this-authentic-life-community-course/

If you are building a business or ready to grow a side project into something more, Anna Empey's Deep Dive is a wonderful place to begin. It is the same process I started with eight years ago, and it helped me build a business that reflects my values and sounds like me. Anna has a couple of Deep Dive spaces left this year, along with two openings for six month private business coaching.

Learn more here:

https://businessinspiredsolutions.co/

Join us next week for the 200th episode of Coming Out & Beyond! We are celebrating this podcasting milestone with Anne-Marie, Tonda, Barb and Anna. We'll be reflecting on some of our favourite episodes, coming out stories, and chatting about what's in store for the future!

This week on Coming Out & Beyond it is the three of us again: Anne-Marie, dating and relationship guide Barb Rowlandson, and Anne-Marie's wife and resident realist, Tonda McKay. Twice a month we set the dating talk to the side and answer the questions that come in from all of you. This time they gathered around one tender thing, which is how you actually step into queer community when you are starting at the very beginning.

The women who wrote in were standing at the door and could not quite walk through it. One had not dated in decades and no longer recognized her own body. One kept hearing the voice that said no one wants a woman who looks like me. One had driven past the building twice without ever going inside. If any of that feels familiar, you are in good company here.

We talk about starting with friendship rather than rushing toward a girlfriend, about finding the rooms that already bring you joy, about volunteering and pickleball and Sapphic dances where you can happily lose yourself in the crowd. Barb speaks to the freeze response that shows up when belonging has never felt safe, and why the fear is real and still worth walking through. And because it would not be us without a little mischief, Tonda and Anne-Marie tell the story of the photograph that finally moved things past the flirting stage, ten years ago now.

The heart of it is this. You do not need an instruction manual, and there is no wrong way to begin. If you are here, you have already started.

If you have a question you would like us to talk through on the show, you can reach Anne-Marie at annemariezanzal.com or send Barb or Anne-Marie a message on social. And if you are longing for real community as the days grow shorter, This Authentic Life, our group program that runs for sixteen weeks, begins in early October. It is our last cohort of 2026, and there is a place in it for you: https://annemariezanzal.com/this-authentic-life-community-course/

🌈 Send in your questions. Email to support@annemariezanzal.com, or message Barb or Anne-Marie on social, and they will answer on the show.

Note for Listeners: This episode contains explicit language and conversation about sex and sexual pleasure. Listener discretion is advised.

What if the best sex of your life is still ahead of you?

In this episode of Coming Out and Beyond, Anne-Marie Zanzal and dating coach Barbara Rowlandson sit down with Susan Bratton, the intimacy expert to millions and one of the most prolific and widely read sex educators in the world. Susan has spent more than two decades teaching the kind of sex education most of us were never given, the kind rooted in pleasure rather than shame or silence, and she brings all of it to this conversation with warmth, science, and a whole lot of joy.

Together they talk about what it means to come home to your own body, often for the first time. So many women arrive in midlife having only known sex that was performative, dutiful, and centered on someone else. Susan offers another way. She walks us through calming the nervous system with the soulmate embrace, moving out of performance and into sensation, and understanding why a woman's arousal is slow, responsive, and worth every unhurried minute.

This is an honest, tender, sometimes very funny conversation about pleasure as something sacred rather than shameful, about the body as something to be understood rather than judged, and about why, for so many Sapphic women, the intimacy they find after coming out is the most connected they have ever known.

If sex was ever framed for you as a duty or a source of shame, this episode is an invitation to imagine something better. Pleasure is a skill. It is learnable at any age. And you are far more capable of it than you were ever allowed to believe.

• Want to learn more about Susan and Better Lover, her library of resource materials for improving sexual pleasure? Visit her website at https://susanbratton.com/
• The toys that Susan highlighted in the episode can be found at https://drivedesire.com/
• Jamie McCartney's Great Wall of Vulva project, mentioned in this episode, can be found here: https://www.thegreatwallofvulva.com/

Ready to explore this for yourself? Join us for the 3 Day Clarity Experience, a live event for women who are questioning, wondering, and ready to understand what they are feeling. Over three evenings together we make space for your story, your clarity, and the beginnings of real community. The next one runs September 22 through 24. You can join for $47, or $97 for VIP, which includes a group Clarity Circle with Anne-Marie.

Register here: https://annemariezanzal.com/3-day-clarity-experience/

This month on Coming Out and Beyond it is our monthly dating and relationship show, and Anne-Marie is joined by her co-coach Barbara Rowlandson, a psychotherapist and dating coach, and her wife Tonda McKay. Before the questions, the three of them catch up on a summer of kayaking, wineries, and a 2,500 mile road trip through Michigan that somehow ended without a single argument. Anne-Marie and Tonda talk honestly about what ten years together and five years of marriage have actually asked of them, because the falling in love was real and so was the work.

Then we open the mailbag. All of this month's questions come from the Late Blooming Lesbian subreddit, and they are the ones so many women ask quietly when they are new to dating women. What is it like to hold your girlfriend's hand in public for the first time, and where is the line between joy and scanning the room for other people's reactions. How do you think about an age gap when you are coming out later in life. What does reciprocity look like when one person keeps paying and the other keeps apologizing for it. And when someone pushes for exclusivity after a single date, is that really the U-Haul, or something else underneath. Barbara brings the therapist's lens, Tonda brings the honest one word answer, and Anne-Marie holds the pastoral middle.

If you are somewhere on this road yourself, you do not have to walk it alone.

Anne-Marie and Barb are hosting the 3-Day Clarity Experience on September 22, 23, and 24 at 7:00 PM Central. It is our most loved event, with 62 women in the room last time, and it is a warm, honest place to sit with exactly these kinds of questions alongside other women moving through this chapter too. We would love to have you there. Register at annemariezanzal.com and click the banner at the top.

If coming out later in life is your story, Authentically Us is a good place to land. Authentically Us is our online community of women who genuinely support each other through this time. We hold a minimum of three online events/week where you can learn, share, and connect with other women who are navigating the coming out later in life process. You can find it at community.annemariezanzal.com.

This month's episode with Anna Empey is the one we have all earned after a tender chapter of heavier conversations. It is lighter, there is a lot of laughing, and it is about the signs. Not the ones we noticed at the time, but the ones we can only see now, the ones that were quietly flashing the whole time while we went about our lives.

Anne-Marie and Anna compare notes on the intense friendships they once organized their whole worlds around, and on the celebrity crushes they were so sure were nothing more than admiration. They get into the jealousy that felt far bigger than friendship, the difference between wanting to be her and wanting to be with her, and the church language of same sex attraction that so many of us were handed like a diagnosis.

There is one loving thing to hold onto before any of us starts feeling foolish. We did not miss these signs because we were oblivious. We missed them because nobody had given us the words yet. Growing up in religious and conservative homes decades apart, neither Anne-Marie nor Anna had the language to name what was right in front of them.

Wherever you are in your own questioning, you do not have to check every box, or any box at all. The only person who can name your sexuality is you. And if there is one thing this conversation makes clear, it is that you have not missed the boat. Your heart is beating, and the fullest version of your life may be waiting on the other side of what you have not yet let yourself see.

🔥Anne-Marie mentions a do-not-miss Brandi Carlile performance covering the Alanis Morrissette song "Uninvited" in this episode, so if you're curious, here's the link! https://youtu.be/kyvDyZoyGUg?si=rWXmdQGaLf6CG1gU

👉Here's a little teaser of Fortune Feimster's Netflix comedy special, "Sweet & Salty": https://youtu.be/Rdj_fEEH5oU?si=rhaJa92JvoQIuYO7

🗓️Reminder: Anna Empey joins Anne-Marie on the pod on the first Friday of every month! You might want to subscribe so you don't miss it. ;)

If this conversation stirs something in you, you do not have to sit with it alone. Authentically Us is our community for women navigating questioning and coming out later in life, with group support gatherings every week and people who understand exactly what this chapter asks of you. We would love to have you with us. Come find your people here: https://bit.ly/Authentically-Us

This is the start of something new. The episodes you have told us you love most are the ones where the three of us sit down together, so we are making them a monthly gathering. Once a month, Tonda, Barbara, and I will open the letters and answer the questions women are actually asking: the real ones, the tender ones, the slightly awkward ones, and the ones you would only ask us at two in the morning with the door shut.

If you are new to the show, here is who you are sitting with. I came out in my fifties, and I have kept all the receipts. Barbara is a psychotherapist who will advise you gently, and she means it as the highest compliment. Tonda has been out for more than forty years, so she has quietly seen most of it. We think of ourselves as the slightly older, slightly wiser, occasionally ridiculous friends who happened to get here first.

This month we read five letters, and the same quiet question ran underneath every one of them. Woman after woman, wondering whether she is allowed to believe what she feels.

Here is what we opened this month:

How do I know if what I'm feeling is real, or if I am imagining it?

I have never been with a woman. Am I allowed to call myself sapphic or queer at all?

Is there such a thing as too late? (from a listener in her late sixties)

What is compulsory heterosexuality, and how do I know if I have been living inside it?

I know I am not straight, but I do not feel drawn to women the way I expected. Where do I fit?

We talk about the comfort zone and the fear that shows up the moment you step out of it, the gatekeepers who think they get to decide who belongs (they do not), why it is never too late, and the grace you deserve when the feelings arrive on their own timeline instead of the one you imagined. Pour something you like, get comfortable, and come sit with us.

🌈Email your questions to support@annemariezanzal.com. You might hear yours answered on a future episode.

🌈Leave your questions in the comments below.

🌈If you are already inside Authentically Us, you can privately message Anne-Marie or Barbara with your question.

🌈This Authentic Life, the community course Barbara and Anne-Marie are hosting together, begins the first week of October. Registration is open now at https://annemariezanzal.com/this-authentic-life-community-course/

🌈Join Authentically Us, our online community, at https://community.annemariezanzal.com/

If the questions in this episode sound like the ones living quietly in you, you do not have to sit with them alone. Authentically Us is our online community, a growing circle of women who are all somewhere in this process of coming out and coming home to themselves. You can ask your own questions there and hear from us, and from women who understand because they are walking it too. We would love to see you inside.

Join us here: https://bit.ly/Authentically-Us

Some mornings change everything. Marissa Mitchell was 39, a teacher and army veteran in southern Indiana, married to her junior high sweetheart and quietly certain that the distance she felt in her marriage was a problem she could fix if she only tried harder. Then one ordinary morning, about a week into summer break, she woke up understanding something that reordered her whole life. She was in love with a woman, and she had been moving through the world as someone she was not.

In this conversation, one we are revisiting from Season 1, Marissa tells the story of what came next with rare honesty. She talks about the depth of the sadness, about telling her husband first and the grace he met her with, and about the tender moment she came out to her eight year old daughter at a stoplight on the way home from therapy. She is generous about her ex, who remains one of her closest friends, and clear eyed about the particular grief of reframing a life you thought you already understood.

What stays with you is where she lands. Marissa found her way to community, first through an online group and then a weekend with women who simply understood her, and she calls it the most life altering weekend of her life. It is a truth we return to again and again on this show. When you first come out, the instinct is to go looking for a partner. What you actually need is community, the company of other women who get it without explanation.

She carried that clarity back into her classroom, starting a Gay Straight Alliance that drew 45 students to its very first meeting. Her daughter draws rainbows. And for the first time in her life, Marissa says, she is comfortable in her own skin.

Whether you came out at 18 or are sitting with these questions in midlife, there is room for you here. We are so glad you are with us.

This episode is really about the thing Marissa needed most, which was community. That is exactly what we have built inside Authentically Us, our online home for women coming out and figuring things out in midlife, with group support gatherings every week. You do not have to walk this one alone. Come and see: https://bit.ly/Authentically-Us

It is the second Friday of the month, which means Anne-Marie is back with the company she loves most: her fellow coach Barbara Rowlandson and her wife Tonda McKay. This is the monthly conversation so many of you tell us is your favorite, where we take the real questions women ask about sapphic dating and answer them with honesty, humor, and a lot of love.

This month we open four questions from the Late Bloomer Lesbian forum. What do you do when you are in your late thirties, newly aware of who you are, and embarrassed that you have not even had a first kiss yet? How do you make sense of a libido that roars to life the moment you come out, and how do you have honest conversations about sexual health along the way? Why do so many of us keep falling for straight women, and what is really underneath that pattern? And how do you set down the guilt that rises up when someone you love reacts to your truth with hurt or anger?

Tonda brings decades of lived experience. Barb brings her training as a therapist and dating coach. And underneath all the laughter is the reminder we return to again and again. You are not behind. This is your timeline. There is no race to run, and there is a whole community of women who came out later in life ready to welcome you.

We also have news. These conversations have grown so popular that we are expanding to twice a month, which means even more room for your questions and your stories.

Queer joy is what this looks like, and we are so glad you are here.

Barb's viral clap back at a troll who asked what she would do if no one ever married her. She answered by tearing across her land on her ATV, dog running happily alongside, grinning and completely unbothered. Two years later people are still liking it. Watch it here: https://www.tiktok.com/@late_2_the_party_lesbian/video/7369204187428670725

Send us your dating questions. Drop them in the YouTube comments, add them in the comments on Spotify, or reach out directly at support@annemariezanzal.com.

Like, comment, and share the episode so more women who need this can find it.

Keep listening, because the show is expanding to twice a month. Alongside the monthly Sapphic dating episode, there will be a second episode covering broader Sapphic questions.

The episode briefly touches on an OP's suicidal thoughts, and Barb reminded listeners that anyone in North America can call or text 988, available 24/7.

If this episode made you feel a little less alone, that is exactly why we built Authentically Us. It is our community for women navigating identity, coming out, and dating later in life, created by someone who knows the isolation of doing this in midlife firsthand. Inside you will find real connection and at least three group gatherings every week, from Speed Friending to our book club, along with courses and a place where you are always met with understanding instead of judgment. Membership is $39 a month or $390 a year. Come find your people. https://bit.ly/Authentically-Us

What if fear is not a stop sign but a signal that you are growing?

In this month's first Friday conversation, Anne-Marie is joined by regular guest Anna Empey, business development consultant and LGBTQ+ coach, for an honest look at fear. Not how to get rid of it, because we cannot, but how to stop letting it make our decisions for us.

Together they explore why the brain works so hard to keep us in our comfort zones, even the miserable ones, and why so many women stay in marriages, jobs, and closets for years because familiar feels safer than free. Anna gets wonderfully nerdy about the amygdala and neuroplasticity, explaining how every small brave step literally teaches the brain that change is survivable. Anne-Marie draws on her years as a hospice chaplain, where she sat with thousands of people at the end of life and heard their real regrets. No one ever told her they wished they had stayed more comfortable.

You will also hear why "blowing up your life" is the wrong phrase, how to recognize when practicality is really fear wearing sensible shoes, why the anticipation of coming out is often scarier than the act itself, and Anne-Marie's beloved reframe of coming out as "letting in," where you hold the power to choose who enters your inner circle.

We leave you with one question to sit with this week. Where in your life is fear making your decisions for you? No need to act yet. Notice, and consider your first brave step.

Fear loses its grip in community. When we sit with other women who understand this road from the inside, the fear, the guilt, and the shame all begin to loosen their hold, because shame cannot survive being met with empathy. Both Anne-Marie and Anna are inside Authentically Us, our ongoing community for women navigating identity, coming out, and everything beyond. If you are tired of carrying this alone, we have saved you a seat. Join us at https://community.annemariezanzal.com

This week we return to one of our most beloved conversations from the archives, my talk with Dr. Mallory Hanfling, a fellow later in life queer woman, therapist, and the creator of the term Firefly.

Mallory shares her story with such honesty. She married a kind man, built a genuine friendship with him, and still felt that something was quietly wrong. Like so many of us, she searched everywhere for an answer. Individual therapy, couples therapy, sex therapy, endless blood work, and doctors who offered birth control and even exploratory surgery. She was looking for a physiological explanation for a truth her spirit already knew. She is queer.

Together we explore why the question "have you ever considered your sexuality" is so rarely asked, how compulsory heterosexuality teaches us to dismiss our own knowing, and why women are socialized to carry discomfort quietly rather than speak up for their own pleasure and peace. We also talk about opening a marriage as a bargaining stage of grief, what actually happens when a third person is brought into a struggling relationship, and the moment Mallory chose to end her marriage with love rather than let it end in heartbreak.

And of course, we talk about fireflies. Mallory coined the term as a gender and sexuality expansive alternative to late bloomer language. Fireflies spend most of their lives underground, and when they finally emerge as their most authentic selves, they glow and bring joy to others. You do not need to have all the labels figured out to belong. If you are somewhere in the metamorphosis, this conversation is for you.

Dr. Mallory Hanfling is a therapist in Philadelphia, licensed in Pennsylvania, New York, New Jersey, and Indiana. Her practice, Courage to Grow Counseling, serves the queer community with a focus on identity development, coming out, and connecting with one's most authentic self. Her doctoral research explores how community mitigates the impact of compulsory heterosexuality on the Firefly identity.

Mallory's resources

🌈Courage to Grow Counseling: couragetogrowcounseling.org (she provides a superbill for out of network benefits)

🌈The Firefly Circle weekly peer support group, linked on her website

🌈Instagram: @thefireflyjourney

🌈TikTok: Mal's Courage to Grow (home of the original Firefly video)

Community changes everything. It is the thread running through this entire conversation, and it is why Authentically Us exists. If you are questioning, coming out, or rebuilding your life in midlife, you do not have to walk this road alone. Inside Authentically Us you will find weekly gatherings, resources, and women who understand from the inside because we have lived it too.

🌈Come find your people: https://community.annemariezanzal.com/

🌈Visit annemariezanzal.com for resources, articles, videos, and the free downloadable guide for coming out later in life.

🌈Subscribe to Coming Out and Beyond on Apple Podcasts and Spotify so you never miss an episode.

What if the single biggest factor in whether we come out, when we come out, and how we heal along the way is the community around us? Dr. Mallory Hanfling returns to the show, this time with research in hand. Mallory recently completed her PhD in human sexuality, and her dissertation explored how community mitigates the impact of compulsory heterosexuality on the Firefly experience, the journey of those who discover something new about their sexuality or gender after committing to a relationship that appeared straight from the outside.

Mallory shares why she coined the term Firefly, what her 21 participants taught her about the systems that keep us underground, and why the people we surround ourselves with shape everything about this journey. We talk about grief, religious communities, workplace culture, family planning, neurodivergence, and how to choose online spaces that truly support us. Whether you are 30 or 86, this conversation is a reminder that we were never meant to do this alone.

• [03:39] Mallory's academic journey and how the term Firefly was born out of isolation, biphobia, and the need for something beautiful in a messy experience
• [08:16] The preconceived ideas that did not survive contact with reality, and the grief that surprised her
• [09:16] Grief as a portal. Why coming out later in life often brings every ungrieved loss to the surface
• [13:15] How the study was designed, who participated, and why Mallory insisted on a participant pool that reflected a range of genders, sexualities, races, and backgrounds
• [18:42] The central finding: community makes a world of difference in how, when, and whether we come out
• [22:00] The communities that most often restrict authenticity, beginning with religious spaces
• [24:13] Workplace culture, family planning, and the institutional barriers that keep people in straight presenting marriages
• [29:16] A-M's story of finding her first online community and the words that changed how she saw her ex-husband's new partner
• [31:26] How to be a careful consumer of online groups, and the difference between spaces that heal and spaces that harm
• [36:22] The overlap between recovery, neurodivergence, and coming out later in life
• [41:51] Treasure hunting: looking back with hindsight glasses at the signs that were there all along
• [47:01] Sexual scripts, caretaking roles, and the abandonment of self
• [51:55] Addressing the old trope about childhood abuse and sexuality, and what the science actually says
• [54:38] Mallory's advice for anyone figuring this out, at 30 or at 75

Dr. Mallory Hanfling (she/they) is a therapist located in Philadelphia and licensed in Pennsylvania, New York, New Jersey, and Indiana. Her practice, Courage to Grow Counseling, serves mostly the queer community, working with individuals and couples on identity development, coming out, communication skills, and connecting with one's most authentic self. She is a doctor of human sexuality, and her dissertation explored how community mitigates the impact of compulsory heterosexuality on the Firefly late bloomer identity. Mallory received her Bachelor of Arts in Psychology and Bachelor of Science in Family Science from the University of Maryland and her Master of Social Work from the University of Pennsylvania. She has presented nationally and internationally on her academic work with the Firefly community.

• Instagram: @thefireflyjourney (the survey link for sharing your own story is in her bio)
• Website: couragetogrowcounseling.org
• Mallory is currently accepting new clients in Pennsylvania, New York, New Jersey, and Indiana
• Mallory's previous episode of Coming Out and Beyond, where she shares her personal story: https://youtu.be/Wn0EWBEsOtw

Authentically Us is our community for women finding their way toward a more honest life. It is a soft place to land, a space for your queerness to bloom, and a room full of people who understand the questions you have not said out loud yet. We would love to welcome you. Come find us at https://community.annemariezanzal.com/

Content note: This conversation includes language that references homophobic slurs and a discussion of suicidal ideation and mental health struggles. Please listen with care, and reach out for support if you need it.

What happens when the thing you love most is the very thing the world tells you is wrong?

This week we sit down with Stef Vachon, a proud queer man, husband, father, keynote speaker, and former international professional figure skater with over 30 years of experience performing around the world. Stef grew up in a small French speaking town in Quebec where every boy was expected to play hockey. Instead, he fell in love with figure skating, and the bullying began almost immediately.

Stef shares his decades in survival mode, the breaking point that led him to write his entire life story and hand it to a therapist, and the piece of homework that sent him back onto the ice and back to himself. We talk about learning to be alone before finding love, the pressures of image and perfection in gay male culture, chosen family, and the movie that opened the door to fatherhood in his fifties.

Today Stef hosts the Together Moving Forward podcast and speaks on moving from survival into self respect, self love, and pride. His story is a reminder for all of us that it is never too late to come home to who we are.

Resources and Mentions

• Together Moving Forward podcast, hosted by Stef Vachon: https://www.youtube.com/@TogetherMovingForwardPodcast
• Reinventing Your Life by Jeffrey Young and Janet Klosko, the book Stef's therapist recommended: https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/43866.Reinventing_Your_Life
• Lion (2016), the film that opened the door to fatherhood for Stef and his husband: https://youtu.be/-RNI9o06vqo?si=YvZBBnQhp24aX3XY
• Heated Rivalry, the series we cannot stop talking about (hear our full episode on it with Barb Rowlandson): https://youtu.be/7ws7-FvaW38
• This Time I Know It's for Real by Donna Summer, Stef's coming out song: https://youtu.be/U4_X2p6rPJI?si=-J9S3QpetZS5lu3n

Connect with Stef

• Website and podcast: https://togethermovingforwardpodcast.com/
• Instagram and social media: @togethermovingforwardpodcast

If Stef's story stirred something in you, that feeling is worth paying attention to. Our 3 Day Clarity Experience is a live, guided event for women who are questioning, wondering, or somewhere in the middle of figuring out who they are. Over three evenings together, July 21 to 23, we create a safe and welcoming space to help you find clarity about your own journey, surrounded by women who understand because they are walking it too.

You do not have to have it all figured out to join us. You only need to be curious about what your most authentic life might look like.

Learn more and register at https://annemariezanzal.com/3-day-clarity-experience/

It is the second Friday of the month, which means Anne-Marie is joined by dating coach Barbara Rowlandson and Nashville photographer Tonda McKay, to talk all things sapphic dating and relationships. This month the trio takes on four real questions from women navigating the queer dating world. How do you slow down when every connection turns intense within weeks? Are you a jerk for losing interest when someone shows up looking nothing like their photos? What do you do when you want more intimacy than your partner does? And how do you recover when a promising connection ends after six lovely dates?

Along the way, Barb teaches the WIN language formula for hard conversations, Tonda shares her hard-won wisdom on representatives, resentment, and why community will pick you up when heartbreak knocks you down, and Anne-Marie reminds us that bed death is not a lesbian thing, it is a long-term relationship thing. Expect honest talk, big laughs, and one unforgettable New Year's Eve story from the Lipstick Lounge.

If you are questioning your sexuality or reconsidering who you are, you do not have to figure it out alone. Join Anne-Marie and Barb for the Three Day Clarity Experience, July 21 to 23, a safe and supportive space to explore your questions alongside women who understand. Our last event welcomed 54 women and many called it life changing. Save your seat at https://annemariezanzal.com/3-day-clarity-experience/

New episodes of Coming Out and Beyond drop weekly. Follow the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or YouTube https://youtu.be/NXWUe52DKmM so you never miss a conversation, and if this episode spoke to you, consider leaving a review. It helps other women find us.

When you come out to someone, you learn very quickly to tell the difference between the half embrace and the full embrace. The half embrace turns the conversation back to your husband, your children, your family system within the first thirty seconds. The full embrace simply asks, how are you doing.

In this episode, Anne-Marie sits down with frequent guest Anna Empey for a tender and honest conversation about what we wish straight allies actually knew. Together they unpack why coming out is never about sex, but about identity, love, community, future, and wholeness. They name the responses that wound, the ones we have all heard, like this is just a phase, you are so brave, and I will pray for you. And they move toward something more hopeful, the real allyship that defends us when we are not in the room, that learns our partners by name, that follows up two years and five years and ten years later, because coming out is not a single moment. It is a lifelong unfolding.

Whether you are walking your own coming out path or you love someone who is, this conversation offers language for the difference between the ally sitting safely in the chair and the ally who steps into the room beside you.

If this conversation stirred something in you, and you are sensing there is more clarity waiting for you in this chapter of your life, we would love to welcome you into the Three Day Clarity Experience. It is a gentle, guided space to listen to yourself and begin to understand what is true for you, in community with women who understand. There is no pressure here, only an invitation. You can learn more and join us at https://annemariezanzal.com/3-day-clarity-experience/

In Part 2 of this conversation, Anne-Marie Zanzal continues her talk with Dahron Johnson, a trans woman, advocate, lifelong cyclist, and chair of the Metro Human Relations Commission in Nashville, who came out in her late forties after decades of quietly knowing.

Dahron shares the rush of the days right after she realized a change had to be made, from calling care providers within 48 hours to playing the "wait list shell game" that shortened a six month wait down to six weeks. She remembers her first public moment out in the world, changing into a brand new outfit in the back of her car and walking across legislative plaza into a Glennon Doyle book reading just days before the world shut down for COVID.

The conversation moves into the tender territory of telling her wife, "I need to let you know that I'm trans," after almost 25 years together, and the grief work both of them have navigated in the six years since. Anne-Marie and Dahron, both former hospice chaplains, talk about ambiguous grief, the courage it takes to trust your own inner voice, privilege and representation, and what it means to be married to several different people over the life of one marriage. It is an honest, hope filled conversation about becoming the self you could never have imagined.

Connect with Dahron Johnson on social media. Her name is spelled D A H R O N Johnson, and you can also find her as DJ Contraption on most platforms.

Feeling that quiet inner voice nudging you toward your own truth? Join Anne-Marie for the 3 Day Clarity Experience, July 21 to 23 at Authentically Us, three evenings of guided support for women navigating identity discovery in midlife and beyond. Save your spot here: https://annemariezanzal.com/3-day-clarity-experience/

Dahron Johnson grew up surrounded by voices. Thousands of books in her parents' home, two people who met in divinity school, and a faith that taught her every person is fearfully and wonderfully made. And still, for decades, she could not find the words for who she was.

In this episode, Anne-Marie sits down with her dear friend Dahron, a clinically trained chaplain, a tireless advocate, and the first openly trans person to speak from the floor of the Tennessee House. The two of them share roots in the North, in the church, and in the long work of coming home to themselves. They move through faith and the work of welcome, the cost of advocacy in Tennessee right now, and what it means to hold the whole person rather than the narrow slice the world finds convenient.

Then the conversation turns inward. Dahron walks us through the years of living with no language and no container to put herself in, the ballet class and the leotard, the three days she spent tucked into the corner of a closet, and the hope bargain she made with herself to survive. She tells us about the lung collapses and the tumor that kept whispering there was a self she had never let herself know. And she brings us to the end of a therapist's driveway, the left turn and the right turn, the moment fifty years finally crystallized into one decision. It is time to get this done.

This is a conversation about faith, courage, and the long road to naming ourselves. We are honored to share it with you.

If you hear yourself somewhere in Dahron's story, you do not have to sit with it alone. Authentically Us is our community for women finding their way toward a more honest life. It is a soft place to land, a space for your queerness to bloom, and a room full of people who understand the questions you have not said out loud yet. We would love to welcome you. Come find us at https://community.annemariezanzal.com/

This is Part One of our conversation with Dahron. The rest of her story is coming in Part Two.

Follow Coming Out and Beyond wherever you listen, and share this episode with someone who needs to hear it.